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What will keep u playing until the end of times?

Endgame Grinding Hardcore gamers

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#1 Gen1tor

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM

Hello everyone!

After reading this about endgame in MMOs and playing a bit of D3 (which I found ok) I m wondering if Anet's decision to denounce the old (but quite succesfull I must say) WOW formula will prove succesfull.

I explain:

1)GW2 is apparently a game that dislikes grinding. That sounds good but I wonder, how long can an average gamer play an MMO without the hope that the next mob/boss/chest will drop at last some ultra-imba-epic new gear.

2)No raids, just hardmode dungeons, ok. But how long until a lvl 80 player will lose interest in exploring the rest of the world, doing some PvP or random DEs?

My point is, grinding the equipment that will allow you to enter the next, harder raid, may be silly (see the hamster and the wheel example) but so far this is the reason that forced us, the players, to keep playing MMOs for years, and ofc paying all this time!

So I wonder, what will serve as the cheese in GW2 trap (of our play time ofc)? I m rlly concerned that without the urge to grind new staff, players will get bored, after a few months, which is bad, it's anti-MMO.

tl:dr : No doubt that there will b some guy to hit lvl 80 after 1,5hrs/lvl * 80lvls = 120hrs = 5 days and then, half - dead, he ll ask "Now what God?". What will be God's answer? ;)

#2 Butr0sButr0s

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:35 PM

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

My point is, grinding the equipment that will allow you to enter the next, harder raid, may be silly (see the hamster and the wheel example) but so far this is the reason that forced us, the players, to keep playing MMOs for years, and ofc paying all this time!

Actually, that's the main reason that forced both me and many of my friends to quit MMO's over the years.

I play many games that are very repetitive (Killing Floor, Left4Dead2, Rainbow Six) and its not the 'gear', 'achievements', 'unlockable', or other shallow rewards that keep me coming back, its the fun of trying to complete the difficult bits with odd strategies, minimal losses, and random people that turn to to be cool players.

Quote

No doubt that there will b some guy to hit lvl 80 after 1,5hrs/lvl * 80lvls = 120hrs = 5 days and then, half - dead, he ll ask "Now what God?". What will be God's answer?

God will probably say if you're that bent out of shape about the content in a video game a) you're life is pretty good and b ) you likely need some perspective.

Edited by Butr0sButr0s, 20 May 2012 - 07:37 PM.


#3 Matsy

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:36 PM

It doesn't need to keep you playing forever, do everything you want to do, then play other games till expansion/new content comes out.
GW2 has no need to make you play forever, the dev's have even said something along these lines, do other things.

Edited by Matsy, 20 May 2012 - 07:37 PM.


#4 Mar

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

It's not like gw2 won't have any grinds. It's just these grinds will be optional instead of needed. So grinders will have a place. Also what Butr0s and Matsy said.

#5 Matsy

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

tl:dr : No doubt that there will b some guy to hit lvl 80 after 1,5hrs/lvl * 80lvls = 120hrs = 5 days and then, half - dead, he ll ask "Now what God?". What will be God's answer? ;)

So you got to 80, what about DE's you missed? PvP? explorable dungeons? exploring? jump challenges? crafting? do what YOU want to do, there is no set path.

#6 kook

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostButr0sButr0s, on 20 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Actually, that's the main reason that forced both me and many of my friends to quit MMO's over the years.

I play many games that are very repetitive (Killing Floor, Left4Dead2, Rainbow Six) and its not the 'gear', 'achievements', 'unlockable', or other shallow rewards that keep me coming back, its the fun of trying to complete the difficult bits with odd strategies, minimal losses, and random people that turn to to be cool players.

Same here. I still play CSS because it's fun every single game. I've been playing halo 1 for years because capture the flag never gets old. I play league of legends because it's ( assuming you have a no troll game) fun every time and different every time.

It's not about achievements or gear for me, I just like playing games that are actually fun and don't use grinding as a crutch.

#7 TheSyde

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

God: Was this why I breathed life onto you? To Waste it like this?

Guy: But Go-

God: But nothing! You have forsaken the life I gave you!

Guy: I just had not-

God; SILENCE! If you despise you life so much, smite you I shall, then.

*zap SWOOOOSH BRRHFHGFGFH*

*dead*


On a related note, you'll still have grinding for cosmetic apparel. PvP battlegrounds. Exploration. Obvious thing after hitting 80, make it look like you're 80.

Edited by TheSyde, 20 May 2012 - 07:40 PM.


#8 pswendel

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:40 PM

I'm not sure how many of you noticed, but levels don't really mean all that much. To say that you are max level is to say that you spent time playing your character, nothing more. If you join a level 20 area, you will no longer be max level.

#9 Tetan0

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:43 PM

this game will be best ever,
1.   fun pve i see myself even on max lvl roaming world looking for different dynamic events from what they said it seams like their goal is to add 100 events per zone per year so lot of  stuff to find.
2. dungeons seams like more old school difficulty which got me in mmos i love hard challenge.
3. PvP is blast both Spvp and WrWrW
4. Fashion! shame we wont have sets like in Lotro i think they done it best spend many hours checking AH for particular boots design to fit some of my sets, gw2 will be ok,  just shame items get destroy so you cant switch offen if not high lvl armor with perma copy in bank.

Edited by Tetan0, 20 May 2012 - 07:45 PM.


#10 SirGamesalot

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:44 PM

Hmm, I tend to get kind of.. lets say "caught up" in mmo's. It is also a fear for me that I will have explored all areas, got the coolest gear, several max lvl characters and bored of PvP/WvWvW in just half a year or so. I'm tired of switching games. I want a nice, long game that I will be able to play until the end of the world! (Well, the elderscrolls MMO might look cool :) )

#11 Butr0sButr0s

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:45 PM

View Postkook, on 20 May 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Same here. I still play CSS because it's fun every single game. I've been playing halo 1 for years because capture the flag never gets old. I play league of legends because it's ( assuming you have a no troll game) fun every time and different every time.

It's not about achievements or gear for me, I just like playing games that are actually fun and don't use grinding as a crutch.

I agree, I never understand why people do something in a game they don't like just to get an achievement, it sounds more like a job than relaxation to me.

On a related note, I'm usually not a player vs. player person at all, but the beta has been very addicting so far.  I'm surprised to hear myself say it but I imagine I'll spend a lot of time there after exploring the game (and for a break from questing).

#12 Gen1tor

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:50 PM

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

tl:dr : No doubt that there will b some guy to hit lvl 80 after 1,5hrs/lvl * 80lvls = 120hrs = 5 days and then, half - dead, he ll ask "Now what God?". What will be God's answer? ;)

Actually I put this on becuz I m a bit shocked after learning that some guys beat D3 2 days after release. Forgive me, wrong influences here :P

As for the games you mentioned, they still include some kind of grinding mindset. Take LoL for instance: u may play 1 million games, but it will be different every time, yet the purpose is the same: win the game, farm reputation, ELO points, improve vic/defeat score etc. Same goes for typicall MMOs. Do this or that again and again until u reach the desirable target. Then go for your next target.

So I guess we, humans, need a carrot on a stick to run behind it. And I d love to know that a game like GW2 holds the stick!

Edited by Naut, 20 May 2012 - 08:07 PM.
removing deleted content


#13 Leios

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:52 PM

The end-game to this game has the same appeal to me as the end-game to GW1, namely that the game, itself, was enough fun for me to constantly help out other people in my guild and group of friends without boring of the same missions. I guess, actually, that is not "end-game" at all, but a way I spent my time after the game, itself, was over. I just enjoy helping people out. Needless to say, the dynamic event system will be a source of endless hours of entertainment for me.

#14 Zefiris

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

1)GW2 is apparently a game that dislikes grinding. That sounds good but I wonder, how long can an average gamer play an MMO without the hope that the next mob/boss/chest will drop at last some ultra-imba-epic new gear.

Seven years and counting, it seems. In fact, people can play games for years even if no reward is given at all. It's why people still play, say, counterstrike.

Quote

2)No raids, just hardmode dungeons, ok. But how long until a lvl 80 player will lose interest in exploring the rest of the world, doing some PvP or random DEs?

Seven years or so. See the original guild wars.

Quote

My point is, grinding the equipment that will allow you to enter the next, harder raid, may be silly (see the hamster and the wheel example) but so far this is the reason that forced us, the players, to keep playing MMOs for years, and ofc paying all this time!

No, it forced you. Not us. Big difference.

Quote

tl:dr : No doubt that there will b some guy to hit lvl 80 after 1,5hrs/lvl * 80lvls = 120hrs = 5 days and then, half - dead, he ll ask "Now what God?". What will be God's answer? ;)

Do PVP, grind achievements, get cosmetics, go do dungeons, etc.

Also, God will probably laugh at someone so silly. Since she's a goddess and all. =P


Quote

win the game, farm reputation, ELO points, improve vic/defeat score

The original Dota has lasted YEARS before LoL even came to be.

And guess what it lacked. Yep, reputation, ELO points, vic/defeat scores.
See, your behavior isn't healthy. You should play games because they are fun, not because you get silly points somewhere. :P

Edited by Zefiris, 20 May 2012 - 07:54 PM.


#15 Alaroxr

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:54 PM

Why should we care about people like that at all? If someone says "I can't do anything for fun alone, I need to be tortured with boredom for countless hours so I can earn something that doesn't make the game any more enjoyable" then they need a mental evaluation more than anything.

Edited by Naut, 20 May 2012 - 08:07 PM.
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#16 Xuphor

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

1)GW2 is apparently a game that dislikes grinding. That sounds good but I wonder, how long can an average gamer play an MMO without the hope that the next mob/boss/chest will drop at last some ultra-imba-epic new gear.

As no one's pointed it out yet, I'll just say: that's still in this game. You still will have harder/rarer to find gear that's better than the rest, and it'll still make you better in WvWvW and the like. http://www.gw2db.com...ring-chain-coat See how it says Uncommon? Yea, you have Rare/rarest/super-rare and the like too :P

#17 MethaneGas

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:56 PM

The grind was the perfect way to keep you playing while paying constantly (monthly),
There's no grind in GW2 and no monthly fee so.... :)  Maybe there is some form of grind (like doing dungeons over and over, but you get the picture...   But then again, dungeons have different paths you can take so it's not like you are doing the exact same thing.)
But anyway.... what will keep me playing?

All those unbelievably cool-looking armors from different dungeons that I MUST (and will) have, not just for one character, but probably for all of them. And they won't have just one armor set, they will have an armor set for each different play style (for example, Minion Master Necro will have one armor while a Blood Necro will have another armor set). But that's just armor, not to mention the fun of dungeons - doing it with 5 friends until you beat it.  Then there's exploration.... That's gonna take a while, and it's very very very fun exploring, at least for me. I'll do every single "heart" and waypoint and point of interest and skill point challange that I can possibly do. Then there's the personal story, personal story of my friends which they can invite me to, there's the jumping puzzles, very fun dynamic events that you can repeat to your heart's desire :P   and this is all PvE.  I'll do a whole lot of WvW as well, especially after getting a taste of it in the stress test. I can imagine spending a long long time on it. Alliance Battles from GW1 were fun for me, and WvW is like that times 100000.  5vs5 PvP is kinda like Random Arena, which I spent a lot of time doing in GW1 as well, so I already know I'll be doing that a lot....  

Basically, all of those things are gonna keep me playing for a good 5+ years. Not to mention when they keep adding new dynamic events (they said that one map, in a some time, can have 3 times as many dynamic events as it has now). So that opens up more doors for exploration and making new characters, which brings me to new characters too :D  I will have many, and I'll do everything mentioned earlier with all of them.  Then they will add expansions or whatever they decide, which I will buy 100%...  If GW1 could keep me playing for a good many years, then GW2 will keep me playing for a good hundred years

Edited by MethaneGas, 20 May 2012 - 08:01 PM.


#18 Alaroxr

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostXuphor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

As no one's pointed it out yet, I'll just say: that's still in this game. You still will have harder/rarer to find gear that's better than the rest, and it'll still make you better in WvWvW and the like. http://www.gw2db.com...ring-chain-coat See how it says Uncommon? Yea, you have Rare/rarest/super-rare and the like too :P

That's optional. That's not the purpose of the game. I can play the entire game for fun alone, without needed to grind a single bit.

#19 pap1965

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:58 PM

after getting to lvl 80 and completing all my story and dungeons on my  main char ( which  i still cant decide on :)  . i will repeat on 7 other  chars :) so i got loads  to  do  and  dont need  to ask god  what  to do next  or to tell him im bored :)

#20 Xuphor

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:59 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 20 May 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

That's optional. That's not the purpose of the game. I can play the entire game for fun alone, without needed to grind a single bit.

True, but the rare-diehards still have this, and it still does provide a benefit. I was saying that the non-existance of it the OP implied was incorect, it is in this game.

#21 Gen1tor

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

View PostZefiris, on 20 May 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Seven years and counting, it seems. In fact, people can play games for years even if no reward is given at all. It's why people still play, say, counterstrike.



Seven years or so. See the original guild wars.



No, it forced you. Not us. Big difference.



Do PVP, grind achievements, get cosmetics, go do dungeons, etc.

Also, God will probably laugh at someone so silly. Since she's a goddess and all. =P




The original Dota has lasted YEARS before LoL even came to be.

And guess what it lacked. Yep, reputation, ELO points, vic/defeat scores.
See, your behavior isn't healthy. You should play games because they are fun, not because you get silly points somewhere. :P

I yield, sir, show some mercy! Being a typicall MMO player (but never played GW, sry for that) I m just concerned about a game's ability to keep us, or me if u want it, engaged. That's all. If GW2 will prove to achieve this in it's own ways, then I ll vote it game of the century!

#22 Craywulf

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

If you need a reward to pacify your inclination to do something, then the problem is yours, not the developers. If you can find out what is fun to you without seeking a reward you'll find longevity in that activity.

#23 Alaroxr

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostXuphor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

True, but the rare-diehards still have this, and it still does provide a benefit. I was saying that the non-existance of it the OP implied was incorect, it is in this game.

Oh, I suppose I read too quickly. I know I'll be trying to complete every zone 100%, and get all of the gear from each dungeon. Not to mention getting all of the skins for sPvP.

#24 Myramar

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:07 PM

nothing. Because i don't want to stick to one single game until the end of all days. To me, the question would be "What will make you coming back to GW2 from time to time until the end of times?". Here, i think this will be
- activities with my awesome guild (frequend pvp matches, tournaments, pve stuff)
- content updates (new Structured pvp maps and mechanics, new zones, increased level cap, expansions)
- holiday events

and besides of that, it is determined by what games are there besides GW2 that keep me interested, how much i have to work, university stuff and overal boredom/free time i can use to play games at all.

#25 Bulldog

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:15 PM

The beauty of GW2 and GW1 is that there is no sub fee.  I can  take some time away from the game and never feel bad.  I probably will play the hell out of GW2 for an example I played over 7000 hours just in GW1.  I think what keeps me coming back isn't the gear grind or the level progression it's that I'm having fun with my friends.  If I get to the point where I'm not then it's time for me to play something else or at least give it up for a while.  I also know that Anet will add new expansions and new content so I proabably won't have to worry about content getting stale for along time.  ;)

#26 theuprising

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:17 PM

gw1 has no endgame, its like skyrim, u keep playing until u run out of content or get bored, whatever comes first. You pay for 60 dollars worth of content.

Edited by theuprising, 20 May 2012 - 08:18 PM.


#27 bamtaramtam

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:20 PM

Lets look on this calc:
-> "1,5hrs/lvl * 80lvls = 120hrs = 5 days"
correct
But
Do you play computer games 24/7?
Playing 4 hours a day its 30 days for 80.
30 days * 8 class = 240 days - only leveling ;)
add
sPvP, fun, WvW, dungeons token grind, etc

Edited by bamtaramtam, 20 May 2012 - 08:21 PM.


#28 Wynterarwyn

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

1)GW2 is apparently a game that dislikes grinding. That sounds good but I wonder, how long can an average gamer play an MMO without the hope that the next mob/boss/chest will drop at last some ultra-imba-epic new gear.

Apparently a good portion of us can play for 7 years and counting after reaching "end-game"

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

2)No raids, just hardmode dungeons, ok. But how long until a lvl 80 player will lose interest in exploring the rest of the world, doing some PvP or random DEs?
This is subjective I suppose, some people will leave because they like their carrot/stick games. Others people like me & others who still play Guild Wars, will stay around for different reasons. Friends, new content, events, fun.


View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

My point is, grinding the equipment that will allow you to enter the next, harder raid, may be silly (see the hamster and the wheel example) but so far this is the reason that forced us, the players, to keep playing MMOs for years, and ofc paying all this time!

Not it's the thing that has forced you to keep playing MMO's, I personally never ran the gear treadmill, not in wow, lotro or rift. I play MMORPG's for the content not the gear grind.

View PostGen1tor, on 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

So I wonder, what will serve as the cheese in GW2 trap (of our play time ofc)? I m rlly concerned that without the urge to grind new staff, players will get bored, after a few months, which is bad, it's anti-MMO.

Arena Net is pretty good about adding content between expansions to keep it's players busy. If your playing simply for PVP well then you really don't have to worry because PVP is pretty dynamic on it's own.If PVE is your thing all you have to do is look to GW1 to see how well Arena Net is about adding content, there hasn't been in expansion release for the game since 2007 but they are still adding content.

[edit]Edited for spelling & grammar[/edit]

Edited by Wynterarwyn, 20 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.

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#29 Oldthrall

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

Constant content updates....Colin Johanson did say that there will be lots of updates to dynamic events....like if you leave a zone for 6 months, Anet would;ve probably increased that zone's dynamic events from 100 to 300 events....that is what will keep me playing. The fact that the world will continue to be more and more complex and alive, is what will keep me playing. I cannot even imagine how the events will play out 2 years after release in the lv17-25 zones....maybe there will be so many dynamic events that every single time you go past you see a new one....especially if you haven't played in 2 years, that's what will happen. I also love the armor designs and the environment art in GW2....it's so damn beautiful! It makes me want to fly in that game.....but I can't! stupid gravity....and also the introduction of asian architecture in a new capital city will indeed make me want to continue playing....also the possibliity of having underwater capital cities as well will make me even more want to continue playing.....also the fact that their team is continually updating the game is what will keep me playing....

FINALLY: pretty much B2P, so not much money involved, I will keep playing.

Edited by anpoon, 20 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.


#30 Nicator

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:32 PM

I suppose each person can carve their own path to seek fun. Of course, achievers will probably have to wait for a new expansion if they somehow manage to get every single thing possible in the game, but there is PvP, roleplaying (GW has a vast lore from what I've seen) and many other forms each person can find their own means of having fun. If you believe that GW will give you unlimited content just because it doesn't follow the traditional model, I am sorry to say, but it won't, there is always a limit to it. No game is really capable of that. The problem is actually with the feeling that everything must be achieved, because you will never really find a game that will offer you what you seek. If you really want to keep playing for that long, you will have to change your priorities in the game.