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Warrior Bleed Maths

bleed warrior maths

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#31 Mammoth

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostFrogReaver, on 28 May 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

BUMP for Mammoth.

Yeah I updated my post when I saw your update :)

#32 FrogReaver

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostMammoth, on 28 May 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Sure, if you're comparing to a guy who has the '1s recharge on bulls' edition. Let's say a weapon swing takes 1s. Let's say it has a coefficient of .200 (I haven't seen one this high, but for the sake of argument, since I haven't seen many). To increase your dps by 1000 with power alone, you need 5000 power. If you have 100% chance to crit and a 2.00 crit modifier, you need 2500 power. You're the one who figured this stuff out man ;)



You don't need to. You're autoattacking for 2.5k, it's really that straightforward. If they have a relatively spammable condition removal, they can make a dent on that, it's a question of whether that dent is large enough. Since it doesn't even seem to reduce the 2.2k bleed component by a half, you're talking about pretty decent autos, in the 1.4-1.7k range. Have a look here for GS autos from a full offensive warrior:


700. On a light golem.

The main difference is obviously that when the greatsword warrior has a knockdown/stun/immobilise up, either from himself or his team, he makes the sword warrior look like a schoolgirl, because he has a 4000 damage ability on a 6s cooldown ;)

You mean with our projected numbers the greatsword warrior is getting almost the same if not more DPS with 1 skill as the bleeder does after 6 seconds of constant attacking?  You still want to claim the bleeder has comparable damage?

#33 Mammoth

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:06 PM

View PostFrogReaver, on 28 May 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

You mean with our projected numbers the greatsword warrior is getting almost the same if not more DPS with 1 skill as the bleeder does after 6 seconds of constant attacking?

Sure, and 12s later he is doing a third of the damage.

Edited by Mammoth, 28 May 2012 - 11:22 PM.


#34 keresturec

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostFrogReaver, on 28 May 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

You mean with our projected numbers the greatsword warrior is getting almost the same if not more DPS with 1 skill as the bleeder does after 6 seconds of constant attacking?  You still want to claim the bleeder has comparable damage?
You keep forgetting that a bleeder will deal raw damage as well. You might not believe this but professions like ranger and warrior can get 20+ bleeds in about 4-5 seconds. 20 bleed * 100 dmg(you can go as far as 120) = 2000 constant dps + raw dmg dps... so yes bleeder has comparable damage.

#35 Mammoth

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:25 PM

View Postkeresturec, on 28 May 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

You keep forgetting that a bleeder will deal raw damage as well. You might not believe this but professions like ranger and warrior can get 20+ bleeds in about 4-5 seconds. 20 bleed * 100 dmg(you can go as far as 120) = 2000 constant dps + raw dmg dps... so yes bleeder has comparable damage.

Yeah that's another point. Let's take the GS war from the vid.

With 1436 extra power, his greatsword auto gains 260 damage. However, someone stacking condition damage is forced to take about 1000 extra power or precision. Since we know power is better, it's going to be power, and he is only going to be 400 behind the power/precision guy, or ~80 damage, which is about the same as his malice adds to a single tick of a single bleed.

The end result is that he hits just as hard in terms of direct damage. Where he falls behind is that he has smaller crits, less often, but in exchange he gets an extra 2k dps from bleeds.

Edited by Mammoth, 28 May 2012 - 11:34 PM.


#36 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:20 AM

This whole frenzy hundred blade eviscerate thing is rediculous. And the video above shows what? A warrior taking on 1vs1 with an elite skill + 2 utilities resulting in a dead opponent with awesome editing showing nothing else. whow im totally stunned........... not

#37 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:05 AM

View PostMammoth, on 28 May 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Yeah that's another point. Let's take the GS war from the vid.

With 1436 extra power, his greatsword auto gains 260 damage. However, someone stacking condition damage is forced to take about 1000 extra power or precision. Since we know power is better, it's going to be power, and he is only going to be 400 behind the power/precision guy, or ~80 damage, which is about the same as his malice adds to a single tick of a single bleed.

The end result is that he hits just as hard in terms of direct damage. Where he falls behind is that he has smaller crits, less often, but in exchange he gets an extra 2k dps from bleeds.

A bleeder is never going to take power for maximized bleed effect.  You need the crit chance for the bleed procs...

View Postkeresturec, on 28 May 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

You keep forgetting that a bleeder will deal raw damage as well. You might not believe this but professions like ranger and warrior can get 20+ bleeds in about 4-5 seconds. 20 bleed * 100 dmg(you can go as far as 120) = 2000 constant dps + raw dmg dps... so yes bleeder has comparable damage.

I was basing my numbers of 25 bleeds in 5 seconds.  A little high for most situations.  A warrior using the span bleed skills can get about 16 really fast.  However he can't do this often enough to matter.  So after those first few seconds a guy uses his long cooldown conditions removal and you are back at square one.  After that it you are still going to be between 1000-1750 assuming you can stack an average of 5 bleeds an attack with those big bleed skills on cooldown.  You obviously cant and so your dps is going to an estimated 30% to 60% lower from that 1000-1750 I estimated for an average of 5 stacks of bleed an attack.

Mammoth brought up another great point: that you do get to keep some base damage through all this.  That's true and that fact can't be overlooked.  Doing just 300 average damage per attack would boost your DPS by 300.  That's not insignificant.  However, for maximized bleeds its no where near the level a power and crit damage based warrior would do.  Further when you look at any of the high damage burst skills, im going to be doing many thousands more with them than a low power guy.  (That has such an impact on the first 5-10 seconds of DPS that you could very easily be dead or near bead by the time your damage would actually start to overtake mine).  Sure, you can build your guy for power and bleeds (which is quite possibly the best thing to do, but that isn't really going for a pure bleed build).  However, it would make for a far more interesting subset of character to look at.

View PostMammoth, on 28 May 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Yeah that's another point. Let's take the GS war from the vid.

With 1436 extra power, his greatsword auto gains 260 damage. However, someone stacking condition damage is forced to take about 1000 extra power or precision. Since we know power is better, it's going to be power, and he is only going to be 400 behind the power/precision guy, or ~80 damage, which is about the same as his malice adds to a single tick of a single bleed.

The end result is that he hits just as hard in terms of direct damage. Where he falls behind is that he has smaller crits, less often, but in exchange he gets an extra 2k dps from bleeds.

I think I showed very clearly before that no one gets 2k constant dps in bleeds till many many seconds into the fight.  Meaning you are probably already dead by the team those bleeds take effect.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 03:01 AM.


#38 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:36 AM

nope, one flurry can net 25 bleed stacks in less than 3 seconds (frenzy) so 2k dps bleeding damage in the beginning of a fight is possible. without frenzy it takes ~4 seconds. granted the stacks applied go from 15-25.

flurry = 10(8) sec cooldown.
you can spam 4 stacks bleed/attack with the 1sword attack.
nice offhand sword bleeds (4-6 stacks each)

5 stacks of bleed realistic? have you played a well built bleed warrior before?

oh and last edit, you can pull 80 damage/tick bleeds and ~1000-1500 criticals with swords on a 60% chance
I totally loved the frenzied flurry dealing 10k+ direct damage and appling 20+ bleeds in 2 seconds- one trick pony in 60 seconds but REALLY awesome^^

Edited by grimmson, 29 May 2012 - 04:06 AM.


#39 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:37 AM

Flurry with Frenzy takes 2 seconds to apply. Many testers have confirmed that 25 bleeds is possible with flurry. The GS build is mediocre at best during the utility cooldowns, so you only really shine once every 60 seconds

EDIT: ahh beat me to it :P

Edited by keresturec, 29 May 2012 - 03:38 AM.


#40 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:41 AM

If we assume that our ammy doesn't add crit rate then the most crit rate we can add through precision is about 600 more.  This translates into about +30% crit rate.  So our total crit rate comes out to 34%.

this means we have a .34*.6*.6*.33=  .040392 chance of getting 4 bleeds on the warriors #1 auto bleed attack.
a .34*.6*.6*.67 + 2*..34*.6*.4*.33 = .082008 + .053856 = .135864 chance of getting 3 bleeds on the warriors #1 auto bleed attack.
a .34*.4*.4*.33 + 2*.34*.6*.4*.67 = .017952 + .109344 . = .127296
a .66 + .34*.4*.4*.67 = .03

When we weight these probabilities by how many bleeds we are getting the result is 1.5.  This means we get an average of 1.5 bleeds per second.

That means its going to take us over 16 seconds to max out our bleed damage of 2500.
1: 0 dmg bleeds
2: 150 dmg bleeds
3: 300 dmg bleeds
4: 450 dmg
5: 600 dmg
6: 750 dmg
7:900 dmg
8: 1050
9: 1200
10: 1350
11: 1500
12: 1650
13: 1800
14: 1950
15: 2100
16: 2250
17: 2400
18: 2500

This translates into 675 DPS in the first 10 seconds from bleeding (Achieved by bleeding sigils and maxing taking the power condition dmg ammy and maxing your crit trait line and taking all precision focused jewels and runes).  We still get alot of power in this build and thus aren't totally gimped on non bleed damage.  I think this actually could add meaningful DPS to a mostly power focused build.

#41 Ivarr_Ironfist

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:42 AM

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

A warrior using the span bleed skills can get about 16 really fast. However he can't do this often enough to matter.

A Warrior can apply way more than 16 bleeds with Flurry, two Sigils of Earth, Precise Strikes and Precision stacking. I think you are assuming that Precise Strikes and Sigil of Earth procs cannot proc all together on the same hit. They can actually according to info from another thread. With a 100% crit rate on Flurry you will be generating more than one bleed per hit.

Furthermore, you can do this pretty often. You don't have to wait until you have a level three Flurry to do this, you can do it at level one. And even if the stack is cleared straight away, you only have to wait 8-10 seconds to do it again.

Additionally, I see the comparison between direct damage and bleeding DPS to be a moot point as you need different play-styles to achieve each. Using a practical high condition damage build, you only really need to stack Malice, Precision and max the Arms tree, which means you have plenty of points left over to go put in defensive Traits and attributes, to make you live longer. If you wanted to push out more damage with bleeds you'd have to go and increase Expertise, which is a waste (purely from a bleed perspective) because bleeds get removed. A max direct burst build requires everything in offence.

Lastly, bleed damage and direct damage builds offer different play styles. If I get a 25 stack of bleeds off on anyone and it is not removed, the advantage is mine and I can just LoS them while their health ticks lower. Direct damage builds have to be hitting the target constantly.

Edited by Ivarr_Ironfist, 29 May 2012 - 03:43 AM.


#42 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:47 AM

That build would be very hard to pull off... I mean the numbers and everything look alright but there is just no way you will be able to stay with your target for 16 seconds.. I'd imagine he would kill you already if it took you that long.

#43 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:00 AM

View Postgrimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

nope, one flurry can net 25 bleed stacks in less than 3 seconds (frenzy) so 2k dps bleeding damage in the beginning of a fight is possible. without frenzy it takes ~4 seconds. granted the stacks applied go from 15-25.

flurry = 10(8) sec cooldown.
you can spam 4 stacks bleed/attack with the 1sword attack.
nice offhand sword bleeds (4-6 stacks each)

5 stacks of bleed realistic? have you played a well built bleed warrior before?

When looking at %chance to proc items its always best to look at the average case (especially when we are trying to add them up enough to reach 25.  A warriors #1 sword skills averages less than 3 (I don't feel like doing the math for you at this time).  That's significantly less than what we looked at in my earlier work.

Now as for the other skills, I'm assuming the guys single condition removal on a long cooldown is going to be used to counter the fast stacking bleed methods.  (Flurry if it actually realisticly can stack that many, (it stacks at 100% crit rate 1.5 an attack and takes about 65% crit rate to average even 1 an attack so it'd have to do 16+ attacks to net the amount of bleeding you are talking about.)  I'll admit I have no idea how many attacks it does but given your earlier analysis that the #1 skill procs 4 (which it can at max with a really low chance) then I'd say flurry doesn't actually proc on average near what you have said.  The other 4 hit warrior skills will proc on average about 2 an attack and so thats 16ish between them.  From what I'm looking at it's going to take about all 3 of those skills to max out bleed stacks quickly and after you do that I'm assuming the guy will use 1 condition removal utility on a long cooldown and nullify them all.  Further to build this warrior and have your bleeds even as effective as I listed above you have to sacrifice the power - condition dmg ammy and go for the crit and condition dmg one.  Considering the power condition dmg build seems superior and more flexible in almost every respect then I can't see anyone really using a pure all out bleed build that effectively in PvP.

View PostIvarr_Ironfist, on 29 May 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

A Warrior can apply way more than 16 bleeds with Flurry, two Sigils of Earth, Precise Strikes and Precision stacking. I think you are assuming that Precise Strikes and Sigil of Earth procs cannot proc all together on the same hit. They can actually according to info from another thread. With a 100% crit rate on Flurry you will be generating more than one bleed per hit.

Furthermore, you can do this pretty often. You don't have to wait until you have a level three Flurry to do this, you can do it at level one. And even if the stack is cleared straight away, you only have to wait 8-10 seconds to do it again.

Additionally, I see the comparison between direct damage and bleeding DPS to be a moot point as you need different play-styles to achieve each. Using a practical high condition damage build, you only really need to stack Malice, Precision and max the Arms tree, which means you have plenty of points left over to go put in defensive Traits and attributes, to make you live longer. If you wanted to push out more damage with bleeds you'd have to go and increase Expertise, which is a waste (purely from a bleed perspective) because bleeds get removed. A max direct burst build requires everything in offence.

Lastly, bleed damage and direct damage builds offer different play styles. If I get a 25 stack of bleeds off on anyone and it is not removed, the advantage is mine and I can just LoS them while their health ticks lower. Direct damage builds have to be hitting the target constantly.

Always look at the average case when you are wanting 25 somethings to proc on a guy....  looking much higher than the average case will have such a small probability that it will never happen.

It would be nice to know exactly how many times flurry hits?  Anyone have that info?

BTW: Flurry happening every 10 seconds is useful but not as useful as you might think seeing as you are going to be most of the way to max bleed stacks on the guy after he burns his conditions removal on your first one and the other bleed skills.  The net results is that you will have over half the bleeds stacked on him by the time your next flurry comes back around.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 04:02 AM.


#44 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:01 AM

http://www.gw2tools....afda;dddX;bbRdZ anything you guys would change?

#45 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:04 AM

View Postkeresturec, on 29 May 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

That build would be very hard to pull off... I mean the numbers and everything look alright but there is just no way you will be able to stay with your target for 16 seconds.. I'd imagine he would kill you already if it took you that long.

Which build?

#46 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:07 AM

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

Which build?

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

I think this actually could add meaningful DPS to a mostly power focused build.
also why are you talking collectively?

#47 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:13 AM

I'm really starting to get annoyed when non-numbers guys try to look at numbers :(

A power bleed build that takes the condition dmg power ammy can still achieve a +30% crit rate through other gear and traits.  The difference between going this and going for the precision condition dmg ammy (apart from the significantly less condition dmg on that precision ammy) is about 0.5 bleeds per attack if my estimates are correct (I've not actually crunched the numbers yet to be 100% positve).  You'll see half as many bleeds from flurry but each will do a little more and you will see about 25% less bleeds from any of the warriors bleed skills.  Is that really worth the 800 power difference?  Oh and did I mention that my bleeds will do more dmg than yours. ;)

View Postkeresturec, on 29 May 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

also why are you talking collectively?

There's nothing collective in anything you quoted????

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 04:14 AM.


#48 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:24 AM

frogreaver ure quite the theory guy right? crunching numebrs and such, im more the "test it" guy, to find an OP build not intended^^
for example the sword offhand 4 skill doesn't apply a set stack of bleed, it is more of a condition applieng bleeds for the next 4 seconds, resulting in 2-6 stacks of bleed.
and flurry, I equipped 2 earth sigils and with the right build i NEVER applied less then 15 stacks of bleed with flurry (on golem) and that was a rare sight.
whatever, I don't want to type my whole beta expierience here, but the damage difference between direct damage warriors and bleed warriors was the exact theme i wanted to test at this beta, and i have seen one difference: if you play direct damage you have to sit on your target 90% of the time while you can rage the first seconds with a bleeder build and then dodge out the fight watching your bleeds do the work.
crunching numers is awesome, but experience is quite nice as well, and in my expiernce i loved heavy bleeding builds.
and i can't stress this enough, 5 stacks bleeding is rediculous, more a stack of 10 at LEAST.

#49 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:31 AM

View Postgrimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

frogreaver ure quite the theory guy right? crunching numebrs and such, im more the "test it" guy, to find an OP build not intended^^
for example the sword offhand 4 skill doesn't apply a set stack of bleed, it is more of a condition applieng bleeds for the next 4 seconds, resulting in 2-6 stacks of bleed.
and flurry, I equipped 2 earth sigils and with the right build i NEVER applied less then 15 stacks of bleed with flurry (on golem) and that was a rare sight.
whatever, I don't want to type my whole beta expierience here, but the damage difference between direct damage warriors and bleed warriors was the exact theme i wanted to test at this beta, and i have seen one difference: if you play direct damage you have to sit on your target 90% of the time while you can rage the first seconds with a bleeder build and then dodge out the fight watching your bleeds do the work.
crunching numers is awesome, but experience is quite nice as well, and in my expiernce i loved heavy bleeding builds.
and i can't stress this enough, 5 stacks bleeding is rediculous, more a stack of 10 at LEAST.

What was your guys crit chance and did you have both bleed sigils and a bleed on crit trait?  And was 15 really the average you think you were seeing from flurry?  Not lower not higher?  These numbers will give me a good idea for how many attacks flurry does.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 04:32 AM.


#50 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:37 AM

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

I'm really starting to get annoyed when non-numbers guys try to look at numbers :(

A power bleed build that takes the condition dmg power ammy can still achieve a +30% crit rate through other gear and traits.  The difference between going this and going for the precision condition dmg ammy (apart from the significantly less condition dmg on that precision ammy) is about 0.5 bleeds per attack if my estimates are correct (I've not actually crunched the numbers yet to be 100% positve).  You'll see half as many bleeds from flurry but each will do a little more and you will see about 25% less bleeds from any of the warriors bleed skills.  Is that really worth the 800 power difference?  Oh and did I mention that my bleeds will do more dmg than yours. ;)



There's nothing collective in anything you quoted????
dude use your common sense more often... first you ask me about which build when I was clearly referring to yours and now this? You remind me of gollum from lotr lol no offense.

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

What was your guys crit chance and did you have both bleed sigils and a bleed on crit trait?  And was 15 really the average you think you were seeing from flurry?  Not lower not higher?  These numbers will give me a good idea for how many attacks flurry does.
I heard flurry does 16 hits. Now with my build up top you get 100% crit with flurry meaning every hit has a chance to do 0 - 3 bleeds. Now you are a number guy so what would be the chance if you get 2 60% and 1 30%? Odds are pretty high or at least 1.5 per hit which equates to 25 bleeds easily.

#51 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:37 AM

I thought I stated that I used 2 sigils of earth and of course bleed of crit trait.
build: http://www.gw2builds...-1.2.5.8.10.1.5
amulet im not sure anymore.... but that doesn' matter, even with 50ish bleeds it is a nice damage addition.
and 15 bleed stacks wasn't average, it was minimum
edit: crit chance was over 60%, if I remember correctly ~67%

Edited by grimmson, 29 May 2012 - 04:38 AM.


#52 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:39 AM

View Postkeresturec, on 29 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

dude use your common sense more often... first you ask me about which build when I was clearly referring to yours and now this? You remind me of gollum from lotr lol no offense.

Clearly referring to mine.  Hmmmm... subjective opinion.  Seeing as I was still not 100% sure you were referring to mine then clearly your reference was not clear enough... besides how easy is it to respond and say the one you posted without getting into all this craziness?  Seems some like to make big deals about nothing...

View Postgrimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

I thought I stated that I used 2 sigils of earth and of course bleed of crit trait.
build: http://www.gw2builds...-1.2.5.8.10.1.5
amulet im not sure anymore.... but that doesn' matter, even with 50ish bleeds it is a nice damage addition.
and 15 bleed stacks wasn't average, it was minimum

You may have stated it.  I probably missed it.  Sorry.  The amulet actually matters alot in terms of what your crit rate was.  If 15 was the minimum could you guess at the average you were seeing just from flurry?

#53 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:45 AM

View Postgrimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

I thought I stated that I used 2 sigils of earth and of course bleed of crit trait.
build: http://www.gw2builds...-1.2.5.8.10.1.5
amulet im not sure anymore.... but that doesn' matter, even with 50ish bleeds it is a nice damage addition.
and 15 bleed stacks wasn't average, it was minimum
edit: crit chance was over 60%, if I remember correctly ~67%
67% + 10%swords +10% burst crit + 20% fury = >100%
grimmson wouldn't you rather take opportunist, giving you fury every time you immobilize even while using flurry?

#54 Mammoth

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:45 AM

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

A bleeder is never going to take power for maximized bleed effect.  You need the crit chance for the bleed procs...

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

I'm really starting to get annoyed when non-numbers guys try to look at numbers :(

A power bleed build that takes the condition dmg power ammy can still achieve a +30% crit rate through other gear and traits.  The difference between going this and going for the precision condition dmg ammy (apart from the significantly less condition dmg on that precision ammy) is about 0.5 bleeds per attack if my estimates are correct (I've not actually crunched the numbers yet to be 100% positve).  You'll see half as many bleeds from flurry but each will do a little more and you will see about 25% less bleeds from any of the warriors bleed skills.  Is that really worth the 800 power difference?  Oh and did I mention that my bleeds will do more dmg than yours. ;)
You shouldn't disparage people when you're doing things like the above. I have a tendency to express myself the same way, but it's rarely a good idea.

Quote

I was basing my numbers of 25 bleeds in 5 seconds.  A little high for most situations.  A warrior using the span bleed skills can get about 16 really fast.  However he can't do this often enough to matter.  So after those first few seconds a guy uses his long cooldown conditions removal and you are back at square one.  After that it you are still going to be between 1000-1750 assuming you can stack an average of 5 bleeds an attack with those big bleed skills on cooldown.  You obviously cant and so your dps is going to an estimated 30% to 60% lower from that 1000-1750 I estimated for an average of 5 stacks of bleed an attack.

Here you're still ignoring that the damage continues long after you stop applying it, or ramps up to well above the DD if you keep applying it. More on this down the post a bit because I think it's where communication is breaking down.

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Mammoth brought up another great point: that you do get to keep some base damage through all this.  That's true and that fact can't be overlooked.  Doing just 300 average damage per attack would boost your DPS by 300.  That's not insignificant.  However, for maximized bleeds its no where near the level a power and crit damage based warrior would do.  Further when you look at any of the high damage burst skills, im going to be doing many thousands more with them than a low power guy.  (That has such an impact on the first 5-10 seconds of DPS that you could very easily be dead or near bead by the time your damage would actually start to overtake mine).  Sure, you can build your guy for power and bleeds (which is quite possibly the best thing to do, but that isn't really going for a pure bleed build).  However, it would make for a far more interesting subset of character to look at.

You're doing the same amount of noncrit damage, and trading bleeds for crits. You would need to back up a statement like 'nowhere near the same damage'. Give 50% crit, 2.00 multiplier, that's 350 crit dps, which a sword warrior obviously outdoes, without factoring his own crit and crit damage stats. 100% crit, 3.00 multiplier, 1400 crit dps. Now we're close to the damage a sword warrior is applying with each hit. Sadly you can't actually get those numbers, and it's still not quite there.


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I think I showed very clearly before that no one gets 2k constant dps in bleeds till many many seconds into the fight.  Meaning you are probably already dead by the team those bleeds take effect.
This is where we're it's breaking down imo. I'm saying you're applying 2.5k damage per swing, you're saying it's not frontloaded, which is kind of a given. We're talking about two different things. Part of the problem is that you haven't convinced me it's not frontloaded enough anyway. I don't think I ever died in <20s even when fighting 4+ people. 1v1 more like 3 minutes. My ranger had a good 3+ minute duel with a 100b warrior (we were the only people in the game), and that's the only time I recall dying to a solo opponent in the BWE, so I don't have any shorter examples. The main issue though, is that there's no real way to avoid the fact that you're applying twenty five hundred damage with each swing, and condition removal doesn't impact that as much as it seems.

Edited by Mammoth, 29 May 2012 - 05:11 AM.


#55 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:53 AM

View Postkeresturec, on 29 May 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

67% + 10%swords +10% burst crit + 20% fury = >100%
grimmson wouldn't you rather take opportunist, giving you fury every time you immobilize even while using flurry?

I like 10% on all attacks more than 20% on flurry and immobilized foes :\
matter of taste and playstyle i guess
edit: the other mayor traits are too importent in my opinion with this build
edit2: and where get 10% burst crit?

Edited by grimmson, 29 May 2012 - 04:56 AM.


#56 keresturec

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:02 AM

View Postgrimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

I like 10% on all attacks more than 20% on flurry and immobilized foes :\
matter of taste and playstyle i guess
edit: the other mayor traits are too importent in my opinion with this build
edit2: and where get 10% burst crit?
2nd minor trait in arms. I was talking about your major trait "Last Chance" that gives frenzy every 90 seconds.. which looks like it only increases critical dmg, not the full skill warriors get on their utility one, seems kinda redundant with this build. Yeah sorry I was not clear at all to which skill I was referring to.

Edited by keresturec, 29 May 2012 - 05:03 AM.


#57 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:07 AM

no, last chance triggers a full frenzy for 6 seconds whenever ure hitting someone with <=25% hp, even with aoe attacks, meaning if ure starting a fight with frenzy ure likely getting someone down to 25% getting another 6 seconds of frenzy to kill the next one. with sure-footed it is a 7,5 second frenzy :devil:

#58 FrogReaver

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:24 AM

View PostMammoth, on 29 May 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

You shouldn't disparage people when you're doing things like the above. I have a tendency to express myself the same way, but it's rarely a good idea.



Here you're still ignoring that the damage continues long after you stop applying it, or ramps up to well above the DD if you keep applying it. More on this down the post a bit because I think it's where communication is breaking down.



You're doing the same amount of noncrit damage, and trading bleeds for crits. You would need to back up a statement like 'nowhere near the same damage'. Give 50% crit, 2.00 multiplier, that's 350 crit dps, which a sword warrior obviously outdoes, without factoring his own crit and crit damage stats. 100% crit, 3.00 multiplier, 1400 crit dps. Now we're close to the damage a sword warrior is applying with each hit. Sadly you can't actually get those numbers, and it's still not quite there.



This is where we're it's breaking down imo. I'm saying you're applying 2.5k damage per swing, you're saying it's not frontloaded, which is kind of a given. We're talking about two different things. Part of the problem is that you haven't convinced me it's not frontloaded enough anyway. I don't think I ever died in &--#60;20s even when fighting 4+ people. 1v1 more like 3 minutes. My ranger had a good 3+ minute duel with a 100b warrior (we were the only people in the game), and that's the only time I recall dying to a solo opponent in the BWE, so I don't have any shorter examples. The main issue though, is that there's no real way to avoid the fact that you're applying twenty five hundred damage with each swing, and condition removal doesn't impact that as much as it seems.

I'll give you that it depends more on fight durations than anything.  If I'm right and fight times should generally be much closer to 10 or 20 seconds then bleeding is pretty underwhelming.  If you are right and fights are 30 seconds + then I'd say bleeding is a very good source of damage.

View Postkeresturec, on 29 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

dude use your common sense more often... first you ask me about which build when I was clearly referring to yours and now this? You remind me of gollum from lotr lol no offense.


I heard flurry does 16 hits. Now with my build up top you get 100% crit with flurry meaning every hit has a chance to do 0 - 3 bleeds. Now you are a number guy so what would be the chance if you get 2 60% and 1 30%? Odds are pretty high or at least 1.5 per hit which equates to 25 bleeds easily.

The max average flurry adds is 1.5 bleeds pee hit.  With 16 hits that's pretty much enough to max bleed.  With a 67% crit rate we are looking at 1 bleed per hit and with a 33% crit rate we are looking at .5 bleeds per hit.  That's actually alot more impressive than i thought it was going to be.  8 bleeds from flurry at 33% crit.  16 at 67% crit.  and 24 at 100% crit.  That actually leaves you the other warrior bleed skills to use to quickly stack bleeds again after the opponent removes the ones caused by flurry.  The warrior is starting to look alot more capable of front loading bleeds than first thought ;)  Good job guys.

In other words a well played bleed warrior can cuase them to burn their condition removal with flurry and then proceed to front load with about 8 more and just add on from there.  That impresses me.  Seeing as you can still do good bleeds without worry too much about precision then I'd say we have quite a few builds to play around with.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 05:27 AM.


#59 grimmson

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:52 AM

don't forget the frenzied 1sword attack :>
the first beefed up flurry reduces the hp to 25%(quite likely) and then the second 6+ second frenzy drops in, and frenzied 1sword attacks are scary!
ok 90 second cooldown, but nontheless a very nice trait I think <3

#60 Ivarr_Ironfist

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:52 AM

View PostFrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

When looking at %chance to proc items its always best to look at the average case (especially when we are trying to add them up enough to reach 25.

That is the average that I have calculated. /facepalm

Flurry procs 16 times. One Sigil of Earth procs on average 9 times (16 * 0.6 = 9.6) with 100% crit. You have two, therefore, 9 x 2 = 18.  Precise strikes procs on average (16 * 1/3 = 5.33). 18 + 5 = 23.





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