100 replies to this topic

[Killyox]

Red_Falcon, on 23 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Fantastic job right there.
Warrior's condition damage seems pretty disappointing, with the exception of Impale that is.

Why?

Longer duration of bleeds means you can stack it higher. if a bleed lasts 10 seconds and does 100 per tick it does 1000 over 10sec, so 5 stacks fo 5000 over 10sec and 15 stacks do 15000 over 10sec.

It's also good for fights requiring mobility.You stack long bleed and can gain distance, run away from mob, and still DO damage while not actually hitting your target! Warrior with greatsword will not do damage unless he is facefirst in his enemy's face.

You can also combo it nicely. Bleed warrior stacking quik bleed and then necro throwing in epidemic! GZ! now every enemy around that target has the same ammount of stacks with full duration! Epic pro pro.

I tried it during beta, stacked 20 stacks of bleed with necro and used epidemic, every enemy also received 20 stacks.

There is also 1 pros when considering bleed warrior...ONE MAJOR selling poin for him (or two).

Bleed ignores armor, protection boon and other dmg reductions. If your bleed does 127 per tick it will always do it whether someone has 3500 armor and protection on him or not.

[FrogReaver]

Quote

When looking at %chance to proc items its always best to look at the average case (especially when we are trying to add them up enough to reach 25.

Ivarr_Ironfist, on 29 May 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

That is the average that I have calculated. /facepalm

Flurry procs 16 times. One Sigil of Earth procs on average 9 times (16 * 0.6 = 9.6) with 100% crit. You have two, therefore, 9 x 2 = 18.  Precise strikes procs on average (16 * 1/3 = 5.33). 18 + 5 = 23.

1.  That comment wasn't even to you.  It was to grimson about how many bleeds the #1 skill will do on average.
2.  Your maths are off.  Weighted averages are not computed in the way you computed them.
3.  Also, you are assuming 100% crit rate and I am assuming 67% crit rate.  I think my assumption is a bit closer to reality than yours.  At a 67% crit rate you will only proc on average 1 bleed per attack which comes out to 16 bleeds.  If you want to talk 100% crit rate then you can achieve 24 bleeds on average with flurry but is that 100% crit rate realistic.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Killyox]

http://www.gw2tools....aZaa;ddca;bbQja

add to it sigil giving 60% chance to cause bleed on critical, invest in condition dmg and precision and often your sever artery will give you 3 ! stacks of bleed per hit. 1 stack from skill, 2nd from 33% chance to cause bleeding on crit and 3rd from 60% chance of causing bleed on crit sigil.

You will be able to stack it up.

Stack bleeds high and for long, switch to rifle if needed, throw bolas for immobilize and keep watching how your target dies to LONG , damaging bleed while you shoot him in the face.

RIPOSTE & IMPALE both give 4 stacks of bleed

If Sever Artery has in tooltip 360 dmg over 8 sec and other two have 2160 over 12 sec we calculate dmg for sever artery as 12sec bleed thus 540/12 instead of 360/8, 2160/540 = 4.

So you can get 8 stacks almost instantly, riposte followed by impale = 8 stacks, long stacks. With enough condition dmg you can do 120 tick per stack so 8*120 = 960 dmg per second for the duration of bleed. And that's just for start.

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[FrogReaver]

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

http://www.gw2tools....aZaa;ddca;bbQja

add to it sigil giving 60% chance to cause bleed on critical, invest in condition dmg and precision and often your sever artery will give you 3 ! stacks of bleed per hit. 1 stack from skill, 2nd from 33% chance to cause bleeding on crit and 3rd from 60% chance of causing bleed on crit sigil.

You will be able to stack it up.

Stack bleeds high and for long, switch to rifle if needed, throw bolas for immobilize and keep watching how your target dies to LONG , damaging bleed while you shoot him in the face.

RIPOSTE & IMPALE both give 4 stacks of bleed

If Sever Artery has in tooltip 360 dmg over 8 sec and other two have 2160 over 12 sec we calculate dmg for sever artery as 12sec bleed thus 540/12 instead of 360/8, 2160/540 = 4.

So you can get 8 stacks almost instantly, riposte followed by impale = 8 stacks, long stacks. With enough condition dmg you can do 120 tick per stack so 8*120 = 960 dmg per second for the duration of bleed. And that's just for start.

And then he uses condition removal and you are back to using your #1 skill to cause bleeds...

[Killyox]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

And then he uses condition removal and you are back to using your #1 skill to cause bleeds...

you can apply 8 stacks almost immediately. Then you can do some more, up to 3 stacks per sever artery hit. Do you think condition removals have 1sec CD? I suppose only necromancer could really laugh off conditions if spec properly. Elementalist to an extent.

Last BWE conditions were extremely good in PvP.

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[FrogReaver]

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Why?

Longer duration of bleeds means you can stack it higher. if a bleed lasts 10 seconds and does 100 per tick it does 1000 over 10sec, so 5 stacks fo 5000 over 10sec and 15 stacks do 15000 over 10sec.

It's also good for fights requiring mobility.You stack long bleed and can gain distance, run away from mob, and still DO damage while not actually hitting your target! Warrior with greatsword will not do damage unless he is facefirst in his enemy's face.

You can also combo it nicely. Bleed warrior stacking quik bleed and then necro throwing in epidemic! GZ! now every enemy around that target has the same ammount of stacks with full duration! Epic pro pro.

I tried it during beta, stacked 20 stacks of bleed with necro and used epidemic, every enemy also received 20 stacks.

There is also 1 pros when considering bleed warrior...ONE MAJOR selling poin for him (or two).

Bleed ignores armor, protection boon and other dmg reductions. If your bleed does 127 per tick it will always do it whether someone has 3500 armor and protection on him or not.

Why do people only try to look at max sustainable bleed damage when they are talking bleeds?  It's going to take you 10+ seconds to get to max bleed stacks...  I can get 2 evicerates and 2 hundred blades off in that time and alot of high dmg auto attacks.  Just the evicerates and hundred blades can net me around 30000 damage.  Not to mention some pretty hard hitting auto attacks and I could easily be at 35000-40000 dmg.  I'm sorry but taking 10 seconds or anywhere near it to get bleeds maxed just doesn't seem worth it...

[Killyox]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Why do people only try to look at max sustainable bleed damage when they are talking bleeds?  It's going to take you 10+ seconds to get to max bleed stacks...  I can get 2 evicerates and 2 hundred blades off in that time and alot of high dmg auto attacks.  Just the evicerates and hundred blades can net me around 30000 damage.  Not to mention some pretty hard hitting auto attacks and I could easily be at 35000-40000 dmg.  I'm sorry but taking 10 seconds or anywhere near it to get bleeds maxed just doesn't seem worth it...

20 is not max. 25 is. And to answer why; because it's easy and quick. 10+seconds to get 20 bleeds? LOL NO!

With proper gear and traits it takes you like 4-5 seconds. On ranger i got 20-25 in under 4-5 seconds. Same with warrior and necro and thief.

It's all very possible. You simply have to build your character around it.

you wont get 30k dmg. Only with full offense glass cannon spec and only on newbs with no armor. Anyone who has some defense like armor and protection you will do like 10k tops.

EDIT:

i should ask you the same, why do you count as if you have always and from the start 3 adrenaline stages? You first have to build it. And 100B can be easily dodged and interrupted as well, so here goes your argument of cond removals and is thrown back at you with evades vs  direct dmg.

EDIT2:

play condition spec . I have tried many warrior specs. Yes, axe/axe + 2h sword is very good, but you severly underestimate condition build.

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[FrogReaver]

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

you can apply 8 stacks almost immediately. Then you can do some more, up to 3 stacks per sever artery hit. Do you think condition removals have 1sec CD? I suppose only necromancer could really laugh off conditions if spec properly. Elementalist to an extent.

Last BWE conditions were extremely good in PvP.

The only strategy to make bleeds at least slighly sustainable at a high enough stacks to matter in the first 10 seconds is to go in with a flurry.  This forces them to pop their long CD condition removal.  Then you follow up with your other 2 big bleeding hits, which cause at least 8.  After that with a 67% crit chance you will get about 2 per attack with sever artery.  The fact is though that you are starting at 8 bleeds now instead of zero and that is very significant.  But considering its still going to take you 5+ seconds to max the rest of your bleeds which will put us nearly to the 10 second mark of the fight then I'd say the non bleed guy still holds a very large advantage with his 30k dmg he jsut dished out.

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

20 is not max. 25 is. And to answer why; because it's easy and quick. 10+seconds to get 20 bleeds? LOL NO!

With proper gear and traits it takes you like 4-5 seconds. On ranger i got 20-25 in under 4-5 seconds. Same with warrior and necro and thief.

It's all very possible. You simply have to build your character around it.

you wont get 30k dmg. Only with full offense glass cannon spec and only on newbs with no armor. Anyone who has some defense like armor and protection you will do like 10k tops.

Actually I will.  I don't need precision to get super high dmg with evicerate.  That means I can take the power toughness vit ammy.  Yes it will lower my dmg with evicerate a little but I am still in the range I am talking about.

BTW: No where did I say that 20 was max bleeds?????

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

20 is not max. 25 is. And to answer why; because it's easy and quick. 10+seconds to get 20 bleeds? LOL NO!

With proper gear and traits it takes you like 4-5 seconds. On ranger i got 20-25 in under 4-5 seconds. Same with warrior and necro and thief.

It's all very possible. You simply have to build your character around it.

you wont get 30k dmg. Only with full offense glass cannon spec and only on newbs with no armor. Anyone who has some defense like armor and protection you will do like 10k tops.

EDIT:

i should ask you the same, why do you count as if you have always and from the start 3 adrenaline stages? You first have to build it. And 100B can be easily dodged and interrupted as well, so here goes your argument of cond removals and is thrown back at you with evades vs  direct dmg.

EDIT2:

play condition spec . I have tried many warrior specs. Yes, axe/axe + 2h sword is very good, but you severly underestimate condition build.

Again, assume they have 1 condition removal.  That means you aren't getting maxed bleeds in 4-5 seconds because they will pop condition removal and make you start over, that means its going to take another 4-5 seconds (probably longer).

If you want to talk about doding my big attacks then I can dodge your high stack bleed attacks too.  Kinda puts us back at square 1 with nothing much to talk about though.

BTW: you are right, I did assume max adrenaline.  So I won't get 30k dmg in 10 seconds.  I'll get it in 13 or 14 seconds.  I still feel really good about that.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Killyox]

Yes you did say

Quote

Why do people only try to look at max sustainable bleed damage when they are talking bleeds? It's going to take you 10+ seconds to get to max bleed stacks...

The highest i mentioned in post you were referring to was 20 stacks.
No you won't do 35-40k dmg without crit dmg% amulet with power and crits. And you will never do it on someone with high armor and protection. I guarantee that.

With 3900 armor on my warrior that i got rather easily without sacrificing much at all (3800 attack 3900 armor and 26k hp) the highest crit ever i took was ~4k eviscerate from offensively build warrior who died in 3-4 shots.

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[grimmson]

@frog
holy crap they play differently, the end! the bleeder does not have to sit on his target to do damage and his autoattacks aren't very weak eitehr. who said that bleed warriors have to boost condition damage to max? a nice hybrid is way better.

and please stop those fantasy lol numbers, 30k damage, I loled and cried the same time because im tired of these discussions.
I wonder how this forum would look like without youtube

Edited by grimmson, 29 May 2012 - 01:31 PM.

[Killyox]

@Frog, explain please, i am VERY curious, HOW do you dodge riposte? LOL if you attack and i riposte you get 4 stacks, nothing to dodge there mate.

You are using hyperbole and dont understand 35-40k dmg you speak of is simply not possible vs someone with decent armor.

4-5 seconds of bleed at 8 stacks is 4800 damage. Add in dmg from attacks and you're @around 10k already. As i have already said it is very possible to have sever artery apply 1-3 stacks of bleed PER HIT excluding everything else if specced/geared for it. Add in direct dmg from your attacks+ additional bleeds and you look at hefty damage.

You hyperbole eviscerate and 100b and severly  underestimate condition dmg.

[FrogReaver]

grimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

@frog
holy crap they play differently, the end! the bleeder does not have to sit on his target to do damage and his autoattacks aren't very weak eitehr. who said that bleed warriors have to boost condition damage to max? a nice hybrid is way better.

and please stop those fantasy lol numbers, 30k damage, I loled and cried the same time because im tired of these discussions.
I wonder how this forum would look like without youtube

Are you saying two 10k evicerates aren't going to happen?  Are you saying 2 hundred blades aren't going to add about 5000 Damage apiece?  (I'll give you I don't know how much my opponents toughness can affect those numbers, but to just laugh them off seems a little wrong)

Now I totally agree a nice mix is better.  In fact if you would have read my posts from yesterday I even recommended a hybrid bleeder and thought really highly of him.  I guess you failed to read that though.  What I am trying to get people to think about is the first 10ish seconds when they could have already lost the fight with their all bleed no power warrior.

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

@Frog, explain please, i am VERY curious, HOW do you dodge riposte? LOL if you attack and i riposte you get 4 stacks, nothing to dodge there mate.

You are using hyperbole and dont understand 35-40k dmg you speak of is simply not possible vs someone with decent armor.

4-5 seconds of bleed at 8 stacks is 4800 damage. Add in dmg from attacks and you're @around 10k already. As i have already said it is very possible to have sever artery apply 1-3 stacks of bleed PER HIT excluding everything else if specced/geared for it. Add in direct dmg from your attacks+ additional bleeds and you look at hefty damage.

You hyperbole eviscerate and 100b and severly  underestimate condition dmg.

I've crunched all the numbers for the last 2 days on condition damage.  In the first 10 seconds of a fight it's very underwhelming.  I'll tell you what, you tell me how much dmg I will do with 2 evicerates and 2 hundred blades.  Please I'm dying to hear your estimate.

BTW: I told you all I had quite a bit of hope for a warrior that could proc alot of bleeds with flurry and then follow up with his other high stack bleed skills after condition removal (Or vice versa).  I still have alot of hope for that tactic.  So instead of just nitpicking at my posts take them in whole.  I'm a very reasonable guy you are going to have to be reasonable too.

Also, as far as dodging riposte, it don't matter as long as I can dodge the other 2 (Flurry and what's its name).

Here's my biggest problem with the bleeder crowd, they all do the same thing, they look at the max dmg numbers at max stacks of bleeds and awe over those numbers.  Yea the max stack numbers are impressive but they don't ever wanna think about how long it can take them to get there.  So please admit getting to max stacks isn't going to be instant, especially when they can reset you to nothing  while all your high bleed stack skills are on CD with 1 condition removal.  Please admit that any dmg build can dish out alot of dmg in the amount of time you are going to be trying to get to max stack size.  Until yall can admit those things this discussion is going to be pointless.  I'm not even going to say you will necessarily lose a fight because of this but it is something that needs taken into consideration for any bleeder build.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Killyox]

FrogReaver, this discussion with you is pointless for a simple reason. You theorycraft, i have practice with the spec.

"Here's my biggest problem with the bleeder crowd, they all do the same thing, they look at the max dmg numbers at max stacks of bleeds and awe over those numbers. Yea the max stack numbers are impressive but they don't ever wanna think about how long it can take them to get there."

here is problem with you, you look at glasscannon warrior assuming you always crit, people dont dodge and that they always have below 1000 armor and never protection buff.

Please, take some practice with the spec before commenting on something you clearly have no idea of as you have already shown.



EDIT: 10k evisc happen, i did them long before majority. I'm telling you you won't ever get 10k eviscerate on someone with moderate armor. On someone with high armor you can totally forget it.

I am thus done having this discussion of actual firsthand experience with bleed spec with someone who has no exp with it and theorizes.

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[FrogReaver]

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

FrogReaver, this discussion with you is pointless for a simple reason. You theorycraft, i have practice with the spec.

"Here's my biggest problem with the bleeder crowd, they all do the same thing, they look at the max dmg numbers at max stacks of bleeds and awe over those numbers. Yea the max stack numbers are impressive but they don't ever wanna think about how long it can take them to get there."

here is problem with you, you look at glasscannon warrior assuming you always crit, people dont dodge and that they always have below 1000 armor and never protection buff.

Please, take some practice with the spec before commenting on something you clearly have no idea of as you have already shown.



EDIT: 10k evisc happen, i did them long before majority. I'm telling you you won't ever get 10k eviscerate on someone with moderate armor. On someone with high armor you can totally forget it.

I still didn't hear damage numbers...

[Killyox]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

I still didn't hear damage numbers...

because you refuse to read or can't do it. Scroll up a couple of posts and read, this time, thoroughly.

Oh and to give you something from certain youtube vid. Warrior was doing on one necro 2500k crits and ~1800 hits. On another he was doing 900 crits.

Weakness > you, armor > you, protection > you

Bleed > weakness, protection, armor, it ignores these completely.

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[FrogReaver]

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yes you did say
[/size][/font][/color]
The highest i mentioned in post you were referring to was 20 stacks.
No you won't do 35-40k dmg without crit dmg% amulet with power and crits. And you will never do it on someone with high armor and protection. I guarantee that.

With 3900 armor on my warrior that i got rather easily without sacrificing much at all (3800 attack 3900 armor and 26k hp) the highest crit ever i took was ~4k eviscerate from offensively build warrior who died in 3-4 shots.

3900 armor
1200 base + 900 base stat + 600 ammy + 300 tree + 300 runes and jewels + 200ish from 10% power to toughness trait = 3500?  How the heck did you get 3900 armor?????????????

3800 attack
900 weapon + 900 base stat + 800 ammy + 300 runes and jewels + 300 + 200ish from 10% toughenss to power trait = 3400 attack???????????

Where did those missing 800 stats come from?

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

because you refuse to read or can't do it. Scroll up a couple of posts and read, this time, thoroughly.

Oh and to give you something from certain youtube vid. Warrior was doing on one necro 2500k crits and ~1800 hits. On another he was doing 900 crits.

Weakness &--#62; you, armor &--#62; you, protection &--#62; you

Bleed &--#62; weakness, protection, armor, it ignores these completely.

That's very interesting about the necro if true.  I think you are starting to exagerate though.  There's no way you had 3800 attack and 3900 armor on the same game I played.  The items just ain't there for it.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Mammoth]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Here's my biggest problem with the bleeder crowd, they all do the same thing, they look at the max dmg numbers at max stacks of bleeds and awe over those numbers.  Yea the max stack numbers are impressive but they don't ever wanna think about how long it can take them to get there.  So please admit getting to max stacks isn't going to be instant, especially when they can reset you to nothing  while all your high bleed stack skills are on CD with 1 condition removal.  Please admit that any dmg build can dish out alot of dmg in the amount of time you are going to be trying to get to max stack size.  Until yall can admit those things this discussion is going to be pointless.  I'm not even going to say you will necessarily lose a fight because of this but it is something that needs taken into consideration for any bleeder build.

I don't. There's no need to. A single bleed is 2200 damage, plus a separate DD component. Sever>Gash is 4400. Impale is 12.5k. Flurry is average 4k (with 30% crit).

BTW I heard 2 sigils of earth  don't  stack, has someone got some testing they can show that proves otherwise? Flurry would be significantly higher if they do, and it doesn't really need that, the DD component is already obscene.

Anyway, net result: I can go impale>sever>gash, you cleanse or take 17k. That's it. From then on, every time I hit I'm applying 2200 bleed damage. I can stop after 10s and walk away to hit someone else, you've still taken that damage, you just haven't realised yet. It's going to take you another 10s to actually die, but die you will.

In fact, if you don't have a cleanse up, a sword warrior can go impale>sever>gash and walk away, because that by itself is equivalent to 25+ greatsword autos. Can go spread bleeding onto someone else and finish you later.

Edited by Mammoth, 29 May 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Killyox]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

3900 armor
1200 base + 900 base stat + 600 ammy + 300 tree + 300 runes and jewels + 200ish from 10% power to toughness trait = 3500?  How the heck did you get 3900 armor?????????????

3800 attack
900 weapon + 900 base stat + 800 ammy + 300 runes and jewels + 300 + 200ish from 10% toughenss to power trait = 3400 attack???????????

Where did those missing 800 stats come from?



That's very interesting about the necro if true.  I think you are starting to exagerate though.  There's no way you had 3800 attack and 3900 armor on the same game I played.  The items just ain't there for it.

i had. There are some minor and majors, 10% thoughn ess to power and 10% power to thougness, then you can take certain gear choices like +all stats and also trait +200 thoughness when chilled, crippled, immobilized etc. I will look for a screenshot when i get bak. I think i made one back then.

EDIT:

no i am not exaggerating, i was suprised myself

Edited by Killyox, 29 May 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[FrogReaver]

Killyox, on 29 May 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

i had. There are some minor and majors, 10% thoughn ess to power and 10% power to thougness, then you can take certain gear choices like +all stats and also trait +200 thoughness when chilled, crippled, immobilized etc. I will look for a screenshot when i get bak. I think i made one back then.

EDIT:

no i am not exaggerating, i was suprised myself

Maybe the extra toughness when health is above 90% gives alot more than anticipated

And even a few stacks of might can add quite a bit of attack.

Edited by FrogReaver, 29 May 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[Killyox]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Maybe the extra toughness when health is above 90% gives alot more than anticipated

And even a few stacks of might can add quite a bit of attack.

that was pre might i think although while playing i~usually had ~8-10 stcks of might. Will search once home got ~350 screens :<

[Ivarr_Ironfist]

FrogReaver, on 29 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

3.  Also, you are assuming 100% crit rate and I am assuming 67% crit rate.  I think my assumption is a bit closer to reality than yours.  At a 67% crit rate you will only proc on average 1 bleed per attack which comes out to 16 bleeds.  If you want to talk 100% crit rate then you can achieve 24 bleeds on average with flurry but is that 100% crit rate realistic.

Yes it 100% crit is realistic. Stacking Precision will bring you out at ~61% if I remember correctly from BWE, Fury (we can keep it at really high uptime) gives 20% so 81%. A major trait in the Arms tree gives 10% crit for Swords and a minor trait in the Arms tree gives 10% on burst skills. That's over 100%.

Also, I was replying to your post underneath my quote, not the stuff above. Furthermore, I don't see how your method is better than mine, as they both get the same result if I round properly. (0.6 * 16) * 2 + (1/3 * 16) = 24.533. Your method might be better from a technical standpoint, but we both get to Rome in the end.

Edited by Ivarr_Ironfist, 29 May 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[keresturec]

You can upkeep Fury 100% of the time with Flurry build since there is a major trait in arms that procs fury every time you immobilize. Having Flurry on a 8 sec cooldown means that you can pretty much use it every time a player cleanses conditions. Simply put, you don't even need your other skills for bleeds, just focus on building adrenalin to max every 8 sec. 25 bleeds every 8 sec > GS sword that only works when frenzy and bullcharge are up. The sad thing is this build will not make it to release, so have fun with it in the next BWE

[FrogReaver]

Ivarr_Ironfist, on 29 May 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yes it 100% crit is realistic. Stacking Precision will bring you out at ~61% if I remember correctly from BWE, Fury (we can keep it at really high uptime) gives 20% so 81%. A major trait in the Arms tree gives 10% crit for Swords and a minor trait in the Arms tree gives 10% on burst skills. That's over 100%.

Also, I was replying to your post underneath my quote, not the stuff above. Furthermore, I don't see how your method is better than mine, as they both get the same result if I round properly. (0.6 * 16) * 2 + (1/3 * 16) = 24.533. Your method might be better from a technical standpoint, but we both get to Rome in the end.

#1  The way you calculated weighted averages was wrong.  That you got close to the actual value of 24 (not 24.533) was simply luck.

#2  EDIT: Overlooked the fury generation trait on immobilize.  100% crit rate is definetely with the precision focused ammy. 64% should be achievable without it (instead of whatever % I was basing my numbers on before).  (Means even with the power condition damage ammy that I can still achieve 16ish bleeds on flurry and each bled will do about 15 more damage.  That almost makes up for the sheer number The 100% crit guy can do with flurry and it gives me more base damage with my attacks.  (In other words I still think the power condition dmg ammy should be preferred).

  Basically my generalized counter strategy for this discussion works the same.  I either use condition removal after flurry or after you stack a large number of bleeds on me through other means.  If we assume you start the fight with flurry then that means i'd pop my condition removal right after that.  If you don't then I would only pop it after a very large number of bleeds hit me.  Either way this buys near the 10 seconds I was assuming on having before you hit max bleed stacks.

Remember my hope is that I'll be able to so out DPS you in that timeframe that you won't have a chance.  If the fight goes beyond that 10-15 seconds and I only have 1 condition removal thats already on cooldown and I've not out DPSed you enough then I lose.  I concede that and have.  The question is can I do enough in that 10ish seconds while ur DPS is low to ensure victory.  I think I can.  Others might have different opinions though.

keresturec, on 29 May 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

You can upkeep Fury 100% of the time with Flurry build since there is a major trait in arms that procs fury every time you immobilize. Having Flurry on a 8 sec cooldown means that you can pretty much use it every time a player cleanses conditions. Simply put, you don't even need your other skills for bleeds, just focus on building adrenalin to max every 8 sec. 25 bleeds every 8 sec > GS sword that only works when frenzy and bullcharge are up. The sad thing is this build will not make it to release, so have fun with it in the next BWE

Yep, 25 bleeds every 8 seconds.  Basically one condition removal stops all bleeds till the next 8 seconds.  After that's it's pretty crazy DPS numbers.  Can a high regular DPS guy do enough damage to win in the frist 10-15 seconds, I think it's very possible what about you?

Edited by FrogReaver, 30 May 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[keresturec]

FrogReaver, on 30 May 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Yep, 25 bleeds every 8 seconds.  Basically one condition removal stops all bleeds till the next 8 seconds.  After that's it's pretty crazy DPS numbers.  Can a high regular DPS guy do enough damage to win in the frist 10-15 seconds, I think it's very possible what about you?

Well that really does depend but in short no. You only need to put 30 points into arms, you are free with 40 other points to put into defense if that is what you want. Amulets might change, and if there is going to be a cond dmg precision and vitality one I would think that this build would be very hard to kill.

[taugrim]

grimmson, on 29 May 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

I thought I stated that I used 2 sigils of earth and of course bleed of crit trait.

BTW, I'm not sure if you meant you use the Sigil of Earth on both weapons for a weapon set. You only need the Sigil of Earth on 1 of your active 2 weapons. Any attacks with that weapon set can proc the bleed, even if it's with the weapon that doesn't have the SoE on it.

I verified this in the last Stress Test.

[Echooooo]

Great thread, seems like bleeds will be pretty good for PVE, looks rather lacking for PVP though.

[FrogReaver]

Echooooo, on 30 May 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Great thread, seems like bleeds will be pretty good for PVE, looks rather lacking for PVP though.

PvP Depends on the length of the fight and also whether condition removal isn't on cooldown when ya go into the fight.  Both are possibilities.

taugrim, on 30 May 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

BTW, I'm not sure if you meant you use the Sigil of Earth on both weapons for a weapon set. You only need the Sigil of Earth on 1 of your active 2 weapons. Any attacks with that weapon set can proc the bleed, even if it's with the weapon that doesn't have the SoE on it.

I verified this in the last Stress Test.

But can both sigils of earth proc at the same time.  For example on a given attack can you proc with the one on weapon one and the one on weapon 2 for a grand total of 2 bleeds?

keresturec, on 30 May 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Well that really does depend but in short no. You only need to put 30 points into arms, you are free with 40 other points to put into defense if that is what you want. Amulets might change, and if there is going to be a cond dmg precision and vitality one I would think that this build would be very hard to kill.

Other than the endure pain trait and maybe stability trait, your trait points don't really determine survivability.

Edited by FrogReaver, 30 May 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[mutecow]

bleed builds are the opposite of burst builds. It will always take longer to kill, even if it does more sustained dps i nthe long run. Lots of things can happen in the extra time it takes to kill someone. He could hold onto the point for longer, he could get an extra heal off, he could capture the point, his allies could arrive, his allies could remove his conditions.

high sustained dps isnt everything.

[keresturec]

mutecow, on 31 May 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

bleed builds are the opposite of burst builds. It will always take longer to kill, even if it does more sustained dps i nthe long run. Lots of things can happen in the extra time it takes to kill someone. He could hold onto the point for longer, he could get an extra heal off, he could capture the point, his allies could arrive, his allies could remove his conditions.

high sustained dps isnt everything.

Are you referring to 5 bleeds, 10, 15 or 25? A 20k health profession will usually linger for around 5 seconds before they die from 25 bleeds. I don't see how in that short amount of time a player could do anything "useful", unless they cleanse themselves. Bleeds will only really be not useful when you are playing against players who have multiple condition removals and know how to actually use them effectively. You can argue about those precious 5 seconds all you want but to be honest if you don't have an active condition removal with you = dead.

Edited by keresturec, 31 May 2012 - 05:54 AM.

[mutecow]

keresturec, on 31 May 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Are you referring to 5 bleeds, 10, 15 or 25? A 20k health profession will usually linger for around 5 seconds before they die from 25 bleeds. I don't see how in that short amount of time a player could do anything "useful", unless they cleanse themselves. Bleeds will only really be not useful when you are playing against players who have multiple condition removals and know how to actually use them effectively. You can argue about those precious 5 seconds all you want but to be honest if you don't have an active condition removal with you = dead.

really? you can add 25 stacks of bleeds in 5 seconds? and he doesnt do anything to cleanse them off in the meantime?

even if they do die in 5 seconds. they still die faster to burst. If you can get 25 stacks onto them in 5 seconds ( with teammates' help) and kill them, you can probably burst them to death instantly. If you can do X amount of dps in 5 seconds, how much dps do you think he can do in 5 seconds?

If you and your team is able to kill him in 5 seconds, then he and his team can do the exact same. By downing him instantly you remove 1/5 or 1/4 or 1/3 of his teams firepower, that could mean life and death for one of your team.

Edited by mutecow, 31 May 2012 - 01:51 PM.