108 replies to this topic

[blakdoxa]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 12 June 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

Sigil of Earth does.  Unload with thief gives about 5-6 stacks with 2 sigils at 70% crit rate and only about 3-4 with one.  I don't think they can both trigger at the same time but they will increase the chance to proc the effect.  Along those lines sigils with guaranteed effects (i.e. Superior Battle) won't give double the effect so there's no reason to take two.

Awesome! This can give me new possibilities! All we need now are two sigil slots for two-handed weapons...
Thanks!

[Dirame]

blakdoxa, on 12 June 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

You absolutely sure about this one???
It's been bugging me for a while whether sigils stack together.
For instance, will stacking two sigils of earth give a higher proc rate for bleeds?
It's been driving me crazy for a while now...

GuanglaiKangyi, on 12 June 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

Sigil of Earth does.  Unload with thief gives about 5-6 stacks with 2 sigils at 70% crit rate and only about 3-4 with one.  I don't think they can both trigger at the same time but they will increase the chance to proc the effect.  Along those lines sigils with guaranteed effects (i.e. Superior Battle) won't give double the effect so there's no reason to take two.

First off, it's crit chance with an additional chance to proc, it's going to work like that. Sometimes you get more and sometimes you get less. Also, on an engineer I'm able to get up to 89% crit chance (by trying extremely hard) and using two sigils of earth (or even sigil of vulnerability or whatever that's called) didn't produce more procs than what one would produce.

Edited by Dirame, 12 June 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Sep]

Dirame, on 12 June 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

First off, it's crit chance with an additional chance to proc, it's going to work like that. Sometimes you get more and sometimes you get less. Also, on an engineer I'm able to get up to 89% crit chance (by trying extremely hard) and using two sigils of earth (or even sigil of vulnerability or whatever that's called) didn't produce more procs than what one would produce.

you have a better chance of getting a proc with 2 sigils of earth, if one doesn't proc the other one has a chance to proc.
If the first one procs then the second one doesn't get the chance to proc.


Setup a test with 1 sigil of earth on a golem; run through it 5 or so times. Then take the average amount of stacks you could keep on it using only autoattack. Followed by the same setup with 2 sigils of earth the same amount of times and take the average stacks you keep up and compare the two.

I noticed a notable increase in the average stack size.

went from 6-8 bleeds to 9-11 bleeds as my constant

Edited by Sep, 13 June 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[tbox]

I would say earth ele may have a lot of bleeds in earth using a scepter but I don't believe  they should be considered " Best Bleeder" because of the low survivability of Ele's.

[blakdoxa]

Sep, on 13 June 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

you have a better chance of getting a proc with 2 sigils of earth, if one doesn't proc the other one has a chance to proc.
If the first one procs then the second one doesn't get the chance to proc.


Setup a test with 1 sigil of earth on a golem; run through it 5 or so times. Then take the average amount of stacks you could keep on it using only autoattack. Followed by the same setup with 2 sigils of earth the same amount of times and take the average stacks you keep up and compare the two.

I noticed a notable increase in the average stack size.

went from 6-8 bleeds to 9-11 bleeds as my constant

Okay I think I'm starting to get the whole double sigils ordeal. Thanks.

[Sep]

blakdoxa, on 14 June 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Okay I think I'm starting to get the whole double sigils ordeal. Thanks.

Yea I was scrambling to to those tests in the last 20 min of the beta
Totally forgot my whole list of things to hammer out till the very end

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Dirame, on 12 June 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

First off, it's crit chance with an additional chance to proc, it's going to work like that. Sometimes you get more and sometimes you get less. Also, on an engineer I'm able to get up to 89% crit chance (by trying extremely hard) and using two sigils of earth (or even sigil of vulnerability or whatever that's called) didn't produce more procs than what one would produce.

No, my results are consistent with the numbers.  One sigil = 60% chance to bleed on 71% chance of critical = 42.6% chance of bleed on any hit.  8 hits at 42.6% = 3.4 bleeds average, so 3-4 stacks per Unload is right.

Two sigils = 60% chance to bleed + another 60% chance to bleed if first roll fails = 91% chance to bleed.  .91 x .71 = .646.  .646 x 8 = 5.17 stacks average, so 5-6 is also correct.

[Morghana]

I tested a full bleeding build, stacking precision, cond damage in a scepter/dagger and axe/focus necro, and it was quite impressive. Sigils also work while in death shroud (siphon life, piercing and extra damage is amazing) and even while downed.

People start to die rather quickly at 10+ bleeding.. but with heavy cond removal builds, like elementalist have.. is a bit harder to pressuring.

[DrStrange]

I loved my P/P thief with 71% crit chance and the 60% chance to cause bleed on crits. Combined this with other on crit abilities the thief has and it was very powerful. I was not really specced for bleeds though as I did not increase condition dmg but they were more of a bonus.

[blakdoxa]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 14 June 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

No, my results are consistent with the numbers.  One sigil = 60% chance to bleed on 71% chance of critical = 42.6% chance of bleed on any hit.  8 hits at 42.6% = 3.4 bleeds average, so 3-4 stacks per Unload is right.

Two sigils = 60% chance to bleed + another 60% chance to bleed if first roll fails = 91% chance to bleed.  .91 x .71 = .646.  .646 x 8 = 5.17 stacks average, so 5-6 is also correct.

How did you get the numbers for two sigils? I've been trying to figure it out for the 30% chance sigils.

[Maeverra]

Sep, on 13 June 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

*snip*

GuanglaiKangyi, on 14 June 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

*snip*

Sooo, how would this work with, say, the Warrior's "Precise Strikes" trait (33% chance to cause Bleeding on critcal hits)? Would you happen to know? o.o

If you have a Sigil of Earth + the trait, would it be a 93% chance to proc bleeds on a crit? Or is it like when you have the two Sigil of Earths, and it's completely separate?

I'm guessing they're separate, but I just wanna' be sure.

Edited by Scarlet, 14 June 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Killyox]

blakdoxa, on 14 June 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

How did you get the numbers for two sigils? I've been trying to figure it out for the 30% chance sigils.

it's called math, this particular thing is a lil bit of probability

[GuanglaiKangyi]

blakdoxa, on 14 June 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

How did you get the numbers for two sigils? I've been trying to figure it out for the 30% chance sigils.

It's basic probabilities.  I know the sigils can't both proc at the same time (for two stacks on one crit) because I've never seen it happen even though I tested it a fair bit.  That means you don't need to worry about the probability of double stacks, you just need to calculate the probability of neither proc occurring, which is .4 x .4 = .16 (sorry, I thought it was 70% chance of proc earlier for some reason).  So .84 x .71 x 8 = 4.77 stacks per Unload.  That also explains why the other poster didn't see a significant difference across multiple Unloads, you'll still hit 4-5 stacks most of the time with two sigils, the only difference being that'll you'll hit 5 or maybe even 6 much more often with 2 sigils instead of just one.

Scarlet, on 14 June 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Sooo, how would this work with, say, the Warrior's "Precise Strikes" trait (33% chance to cause Bleeding on critcal hits)? Would you happen to know? o.o

If you have a Sigil of Earth + the trait, would it be a 93% chance to proc bleeds on a crit? Or is it like when you have the two Sigil of Earths, and it's completely separate?

I'm guessing they're separate, but I just wanna' be sure.

I think traits proc separately from sigils.  The thief's Sundering Strikes trait (40% chance to apply vulnerability) can apply vulnerability at the same time as the vulnerability sigil for two stacks of vulnerability on the same hit.  I assume it's the same for all such traits.

[Mammoth]

Do you have the data from your tests still? I.E:

1 sigil unload #1: 5 bleeds
2 sigils unload #1: 7 bleeds
1 sigil unload #2: 4 bleeds

etc?

Edited by Mammoth, 18 June 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Mammoth, on 18 June 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Do you have the data from your tests still? I.E:

1 sigil unload #1: 5 bleeds
2 sigils unload #1: 7 bleeds
1 sigil unload #2: 4 bleeds

etc?

I didn't write it down or anything.  I just Unloaded on a dummy with 1 sigil equipped versus 2 and looked at how many bleeds I got per Unload.  It was usually 4 with one Sigil and usually 5 with two, sometimes 6.

I also checked to see if two sigils could apply multiple stacks of bleed on one hit, but even though it should be a 36% chance on a crit I never saw it happen after like 10 or so tries so I assumed it doesn't.

I did confirm that Sundering Strikes and Superior Frailty can trigger at the same time, though, even though it isn't that common (only 12% chance).

[Babe]

tbox, on 13 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

I would say earth ele may have a lot of bleeds in earth using a scepter but I don't believe  they should be considered " Best Bleeder" because of the low survivability of Ele's.

This is inaccurate and shows you haven't played a proper scepter/focus ele. A scepter/focus ele with the right trait choices and mist form/cleansing fire+ arcane shield/armor of earth traits is rather survivable. Throw in earth shield into one of their utilities, and they got several damage immunities, high armor, projectile reflection, and a fair amounf of control in addition to 2 blinds.

Not all eles are staff/dagger eles who fold as soon as someone sneezes at them.

Edited by Babe, 18 June 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Morghana]

Babe, on 18 June 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

This is inaccurate and shows you haven't played a proper scepter/focus ele. A scepter/focus ele with the right trait choices and mist form/cleansing fire+ arcane shield/armor of earth traits is rather survivable. Throw in earth shield into one of their utilities, and they got several damage immunities, high armor, projectile reflection, and a fair amounf of control in addition to 2 blinds.

Not all eles are staff/dagger eles who fold as soon as someone sneezes at them.

I'm agree with most you said, but really even with sc/dagger, elem has a looot of survability..  it's more based on rune set, amulet or traits than an specific weapon set. (actually focus add more defesive tools when you pick more off utilities, cantrips  and focus at the same time it's overkill imo)

[Apocalyptic]

After this past weekend, the best bleeder hands down goes to the Axe Ranger.  I stacked 25 bleeds on someone in 3 seconds with some lucky procs.  (average about 12-18 bleeds every 5 seconds without cooldowns).

Build: http://www.gw2tools....aaaa;cecW;ZgTfZ

Weapons: Sigils of Earth and a crit sigil on offhand (can use whatever you prefer).
Runes:  I mixed runes with condition dmg, precision, and longer bleed duration.
Amulet:  Rabid Amulet

Activate sharpening stone --> Call of the Wild --> Hunter's Call  -->  Winter's Bite  -->  (Get Close) Splitblade

Enjoy 20-25 bleeds every time in 3-5 seconds.

Hunter's Call and/or Splitblade without sharpening stones is guaranteed 10-18 bleeds.  And with Splitblade being a 6s cd, you can keep a minimum of 10 bleeds (usually a lot more in my experience) on any target indefinitely.  You can also choose a pet that inflicts bleeding or fury to increase the amount of bleeds (which I didn't even account for).

After bleeds are applied, keep spamming axe skills and switch to Axe/Torch and tack on some burning/burn combo fields.  you'll never lose 1v1.  Axe Ranger honestly has the best combination of sustaining your bleeds and bleed spiking a target.  I've tried every condition build out there and none came close to this build... don't believe me?... try the next BWE and you'll be in awe.  I've used this build in every area of the game (sPvP, WvW, and PvE) and it worked great in all.  Obviously you have to pick and choose your opportunities in WvW zergs, but it still works great if you stick to the outskirts of the zerg.  (PvE and WvW level was only 29 and this still worked without a ton of traits... just didn't get as large of bleed stacks).

/thread

Edited by Apocalyptic, 18 June 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Apocalyptic, on 18 June 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

After this past weekend, the best bleeder hands down goes to the Axe Ranger.  I stacked 25 bleeds on someone in 3 seconds with some lucky procs.  (average about 12-18 bleeds every 5 seconds without cooldowns).

Build: http://www.gw2tools....aaaa;cecW;ZgTfZ

Weapons: Sigils of Earth and a crit sigil on offhand (can use whatever you prefer).
Runes:  I mixed runes with condition dmg, precision, and longer bleed duration.
Amulet:  Rabid Amulet

Activate sharpening stone --> Call of the Wild --> Hunter's Call  -->  Winter's Bite  -->  (Get Close) Splitblade

Enjoy 20-25 bleeds every time in 3-5 seconds.

Hunter's Call and/or Splitblade without sharpening stones is guaranteed 10-18 bleeds.  And with Splitblade being a 6s cd, you can keep a minimum of 10 bleeds (usually a lot more in my experience) on any target indefinitely.  You can also choose a pet that inflicts bleeding or fury to increase the amount of bleeds (which I didn't even account for).

After bleeds are applied, keep spamming axe skills and switch to Axe/Torch and tack on some burning/burn combo fields.  you'll never lose 1v1.  Axe Ranger honestly has the best combination of sustaining your bleeds and bleed spiking a target.  I've tried every condition build out there and none came close to this build... don't believe me?... try the next BWE and you'll be in awe.  I've used this build in every area of the game (sPvP, WvW, and PvE) and it worked great in all.  Obviously you have to pick and choose your opportunities in WvW zergs, but it still works great if you stick to the outskirts of the zerg.  (PvE and WvW level was only 29 and this still worked without a ton of traits... just didn't get as large of bleed stacks).

/thread

Isn't Sharpening Stone 45s recharge?  Although I admit 180 potential stacks of bleed with Splitblade on a 6s CD is pretty strong.

[Apocalyptic]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 18 June 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Isn't Sharpening Stone 45s recharge?  Although I admit 180 potential stacks of bleed with Splitblade on a 6s CD is pretty strong.

Did you click the build?  Its a 36s cd w/traits and you get a free one when your health reaches 75%.  This build is not reliant on sharpening stone... its just an added benefit.  Don't forget that hunter's call also procs bleeds on each tick crit.  And you're axe bounces, so your auto attacks are also procing bleeds to multiple targets (with huge crit dmg with traits).

Edited by Apocalyptic, 18 June 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Apocalyptic, on 18 June 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Did you click the build?  Its a 36s cd w/traits and you get a free one when your health reaches 75%.  This build is not reliant on sharpening stone... its just an added benefit.  Don't forget that hunter's call also procs bleeds on each tick crit.  And you're axe bounces, so your auto attacks are also procing bleeds to multiple targets (with huge crit dmg with traits).

If you're just counting bleed ticks on proc I'd say a mesmer with staff or greatsword clones proc better.  Other than the first burst of bleeds with Sharpening Stone and a constant 5 stacks with Splitblade it's not really that much more than any other build running Sigils of Earth.

[Apocalyptic]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 18 June 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

If you're just counting bleed ticks on proc I'd say a mesmer with staff or greatsword clones proc better.  Other than the first burst of bleeds with Sharpening Stone and a constant 5 stacks with Splitblade it's not really that much more than any other build running Sigils of Earth.

You're really not understanding the build... Im not talking about ticks... I'm talking about bleed stacks.  Each Splitblade throws 5 blades... each one causes a bleed and has a chance to proc your traited crit bleed and your sigil bleed (that's 15 bleed stacks if they all proc).  Each tick of Hunter's call has a chance to proc the traited bleed and sigil bleed (24 stacks of bleeds if they all proc since Hunter's calls has 12 separate ticks of damage that each can crit). None of that is counting your auto-attacks (which have a chance to proc 2 bleeds per hit) or sharpening stones.

Please click the build, read the traits and the weapon skills.

There is no mesmer build that comes close to acquiring this amount of bleed stacks (or any other bleed build for any other class).

Edited by Apocalyptic, 18 June 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[weizen]

Apocalyptic, on 18 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

You're really not understanding the build... Im not talking about ticks... I'm talking about bleed stacks.  Each Splitblade throws 5 blades... each one causes a bleed and has a chance to proc your traited crit bleed and your sigil bleed (that's 15 bleed stacks if they all proc).  Each tick of Hunter's call has a chance to proc the traited bleed and sigil bleed (24 stacks of bleeds if they all proc since Hunter's calls has 12 separate ticks of damage that each can crit). None of that is counting your auto-attacks (which have a chance to proc 2 bleeds per hit) or sharpening stones.

Please click the build, read the traits and the weapon skills.

There is no mesmer build that comes close to acquiring this amount of bleed stacks (or any other bleed build for any other class).

i still think warrior is equal if not better.

autoattack is 1 bleed per attack, 1 chance from trait, 1 chance from sigil. flurry are 8 sure fire bleeds, + 8 from trait + 8 from sigil. with traited bleed duration i had 12-16 bleeds on my target at all times, and with flurry i always would get to the bleed cap. you have to get the adrenalin full, but with axe in offhand (which does even more bleeds with axe whirl from hitting so much) you have the adrenalin in 3-4 seconds, then flurry and your guarantied to get to the bleed cap.

[Ayestes]

Flurry has 8 strikes with 1 level of adrenaline, 12 strikes with 2 levels, and 16 strikes with 3 levels.  Flurry automatically gives a bleed per strike and additionally each of those strikes has that chance to proc a Sigil(s) (60% oC) or the Trait (33% oC).   That's a multi-attack with up to 16 strikes on top of a guaranteed 16 stacks of Bleeding.  In my experience, it almost always maxed out 25 stacks with level 2 and above.  

Honestly I think almost all of the classes have various ways to spike bleed stacks on someone, usually with multi-attacks and the Sigil.

Edited by Ayestes, 18 June 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Apocalyptic, on 18 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

You're really not understanding the build... Im not talking about ticks... I'm talking about bleed stacks.  Each Splitblade throws 5 blades... each one causes a bleed and has a chance to proc your traited crit bleed and your sigil bleed (that's 15 bleed stacks if they all proc).  Each tick of Hunter's call has a chance to proc the traited bleed and sigil bleed (24 stacks of bleeds if they all proc since Hunter's calls has 12 separate ticks of damage that each can crit). None of that is counting your auto-attacks (which have a chance to proc 2 bleeds per hit) or sharpening stones.

Please click the build, read the traits and the weapon skills.

There is no mesmer build that comes close to acquiring this amount of bleed stacks (or any other bleed build for any other class).

Bleed isn't about stacks, it's about ticks.  The only time the actual number of stacks matter is if you're already hitting the max 25 stacks, or if all the stacks are such long duration (I usually go with > 10 seconds) that a wipe becomes likely.  Otherwise it's more productive to simply look at how many ticks of bleed you actually inflict.  Let's look at your build

I'm going to assume:
70% crit rate
2 Sigils of Earth
Bleed trait is 33% chance to bleed for 5 seconds, same as the warrior's
Auto-attacks occur once per second

2x Sigils = 84% chance to bleed for 5 seconds on a crit = 4.2 ticks average per crit
Trait = 33% chance to bleed for 5 seconds on a crit = 1.65 ticks average per crit

You have:
12 hits from Hunter's Call -> 8.4 crits -> (7.056 x 5) ticks of bleed from sigils + (2.722 x 5) ticks from trait = 35.28 + 13.61 = 48.89 ticks per 25 seconds = 1.9556 ticks/second
5 hits from Splitblade = 3.5 crits = 30 ticks inherent + 14.7 sigils + 5.775 trait = 50.475 ticks per 6s = 9.125 ticks/second
2 hits from auto-attack = 1.4 crits = 5.88 sigils + 2.31 trait = 8.19 ticks
50 ticks from Sharpening Stone per 45s = 1.11 ticks/second, 2.22 ticks/second with recharge
Total ticks = 21.4928 ticks/second

Now a mesmer with a staff and Sharper Images and 2x Sigils:
2 hits from auto-attack = 1.4 crits = 4.62 inherent (33% chance to bleed for 7s) + 5.88 sigils = 10.5 ticks/second
6 hits from clone attacks (three clones) = 4.2 crits = 21 trait (100% chance to bleed on crit for 5s) + 13.86 inherent = 34.86 ticks/second
Total ticks = 45.36 ticks/second

As that clearly shows, the mesmer bleeds more than twice as much as a ranger does on average.  The ranger can spike more bleeds at the beginning with Sharpening Stone and Hunter's Call but then output drops substantially while everything is on CD.

In fact, I could do this for all the classes if I had the time.  That would end the debate pretty conclusively.

[Babe]

Morghana, on 18 June 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I'm agree with most you said, but really even with sc/dagger, elem has a looot of survability..  it's more based on rune set, amulet or traits than an specific weapon set. (actually focus add more defesive tools when you pick more off utilities, cantrips  and focus at the same time it's overkill imo)

The cantrip is necessary for the stun break. Every player at the mment MUST have: 1 stun break at the least, 1 condition removal skill (and my spec only went 10 into water so I don't have condition cleanse on dodge and only magnetic aura on scepter/focus, so cleansing flames is good for both stun break and extra condition removal).

[Slashiroth]

Necro is probably the best.

[Morghana]

Babe, on 18 June 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

The cantrip is necessary for the stun break. Every player at the mment MUST have: 1 stun break at the least, 1 condition removal skill (and my spec only went 10 into water so I don't have condition cleanse on dodge and only magnetic aura on scepter/focus, so cleansing flames is good for both stun break and extra condition removal).

The #3 skill on fire att (phoenix) cleanses all the conditions, with 15s recharge time.

But I'm my elemental builds, I had 3 cantrips and scepter/dagger, because I don't like to be tied to the different att because their utilities. (I also tested sc/focus with a signet/auras build and I didn't like it, it doesn't fit my style)

Album: Elem BW2 SetUp

2 images

0 comments

On topic, I think the best bleeding build should be that one with fast bleed stacking, good bleed sustain but also based on condition damage.. because burst specs which happens to crit and leave in the target a residual bleed.. those are basing their builds on DD, and killing their targets with DD more than bleeding (p/p rogue, longbow ranger..)

With my necro, the most of my damage was bleedings alone (SetUp2, scepter/wh) and I also tested the power/DD/residual bleeds style with axe/marks.

Album: Necro - BW2 2 setups

5 images

0 comments

Edited by Morghana, 19 June 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Babe]

Yeah, but Phoenix has a delay, and when it comes to condition removal you may want it immediately. Phoenix is good to relieve minor condition pressure and benefit from the vigor buff.

I've just experienced the rate that classes like thieves and necros can stack conditions, and magnetic wave+phoenix still isn't enough, so I take Cleansing Fire since not only is it the lowest cd stun breaker, but it cleanses conditions and burns my target.

[Xuphor]

I'm not interested in PVP, and Bleed is not only fun, but also very effective in PVE.
Which class, build, and weapon set is best if I want to Bleed enemies to death the most?

Typically, I'm thinking this would be a class/build/weapon set that lets you apply the most amount of stacks in a row, in the shortest time frame possible. Which, in your opinion, combination is bets for this?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I do not want a pet, so Ranger and Necromancer is out, unless one of those is LOADS better at stacking bleeds than all the others.

Mod edit: Merged with existing thread on exactly the same topic. Please read / search before creating a new thread.

Edited by unraveled, 21 June 2012 - 08:08 AM.