74 replies to this topic

[TyrenBlood]

During the BWE I was very troubled by how many of the Dynamic Events played out.

A mindless Zerg sitting on/near the enemy spawn point and spamming their skills mindlessly as soon as enemies spawn.
In the event of a boss, just throwing themselves at it, no matter how often they die.
No strategy or anything, they are back up and spamming soon after anyways.
This also seemed to work well for any Event that resolved around killing, which are the majority.

I really did not enjoy a single one of those Events and they are a large part of the game.
Sadly I also dont see much hope of this being solved as GW2 isnt instanced based,
giving them little control over the number of people taking part in one Event.

Is there still hope for those Events or are they lost to the Zerg?

[Fatalis]

This is mainly a problem with having entire populations restricted to only a few zones.

There certainly will be far less zerging as the game progresses and people spread out.

[Alaroxr]

We only saw levels 1-25 content during a beta where every zone was overpopulated due to everyone being low level. Of course it's going to be a zerg.

Levels 1-25 are essentially the tutorial areas. Once the level gap begins to expand between players and we get to more difficult content, zerging won't be successful. Not to mention how the population will also be split in the Sylvari and Asura areas.

Yeah there were some zerg battles, but there were also many events that needed coordination, even when you had overwhelming numbers. For example, the persistent world version of the Charr tutorial dungeon was extremely tough.

The only real "zergy" areas seemed to be the Human ones which were almost always at maximum capacity with regards to players. The Charr and Norn areas were fine.

Edited by Alaroxr, 28 May 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[rebalnz]

Fatalis, on 28 May 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is mainly a problem with having entire populations restricted to only a few zones.

There certainly will be far less zerging as the game progresses and people spread out.

this+ asura and sylvaria zoners will be in at release. i didnt find the 13-24 norn zone a zerg at all hardly anyone was there some reason and i was on a high pop server. the whole zerg fest thing will be a thing at release for the first few weeks in starting zones.
ALTHOUGH since its a pyramid levelling world the lvl 80 zone might become a bit ridiculous so im wondering how they will make the content challenging.

[Elend Venture]

^What everyone else said above me.

I'll just add that most people during the BWE were going only to hearts and DEs that activated nearby. On the other hand, there were part of us that explored around a lot and I found few more events and stuff to do and there were not so much players around me.

[skuzzy]

What else can they do at low levels? I had one weapon set unlocked and no weapon swapping for 1st two event chains... I could spam skills and try to avoid big AoE dmg, i could attack obvious secondary targets and I could just enjoy it for what it was; 20 peons trying to kill a world boss. Sure it wasn't tactical or pretty, but it was so so much more fun than anything i've ever seen implemented in the 1st few levels of an MMO before.

[Vapor]

There were plenty of DE's and hearts that I participated in during the BWE in which there were only a few of us, and even sometimes I was the only one. Once you get out of the starting areas near the big cities and span out there will be less and less zerg.

[dutch_gamer]

I think too many players expect others to immediately utilize tactics on the first encounters in an MMO. Yes, there were zergs but that is only natural when players are learning the game. At some point you are going to be forced to do better unless you feel like losing your hard earned currency on your next repair bill.

As others have said, it is also the first content in the game. You can't really avoid the zerg if so many players are still in the same exact areas. I absolutely don't believe DEs are only going to end up being about the zerg. If they are going to be, they are badly designed. I don't expect anyone to be able to finish off higher level DEs with just zerging alone.

[Wyrdthane]

What the OP doesn't realize is that Zerg PvE will not be an issue 3 days after release.

what will be the issue is the ZERG in WvWvW that will never stop.

[Rytlock Bigpaw]

the areas were overpopulated and that was low level. I saw the bos in the charr area and he was a bit hard to take down, lot of people died there.

[Myramar]

i would say this is a common issue with overpopulated areas at every beta weekend and the days after release in every game. With one difference: in other games, this overpopulation can lead to a completely unplayable game, not only because of server crashes and queues, but rather because you can not do anything. You can not kill a mob because 5 others want to kill the same mob. You can not kill a boss because you find yourself with 100 of other people who are queueing up to kill the same boss. In GW2, those problems are almost not existent.
GW2 was also not too easy because there were too many people (most events scaled to the max, lets say for 10 ppl, while 25 people were actually there, but it was still challenging). Ofc, there were some lag issues because of the massive amount of effects and animations around.

in the higher level areas (lvl 15-25), there was almost no overflow server at all needed, also the areas were quite empty.

[UssjTrunks]

Isn't that the nature of PvE in any MMO?

GW1 spoiled people because the entire game was just a series of small party dungeons. You'll still need strategy to run the dungeons in this game, but the majority of the standard PvE content will consist of zerging.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 28 May 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Catraine]

I was playing with a friend of mine (IRL), and we were running around, I think the higher level human area, and we saw a DE to kill a giant moss-tree-thing. We were the only people around, so we started kiting it around in a circle. 1 other person showed up, and then one of us died. So one person would kite the boss, while the other resurrected the third. We were slowly bringing its health level down, and a few more people showed up, and then it was dead!

It was awesome. It was not zerg-y. This is what I expect the game to look like upon release. You'll see a cool event, start it, need help and help will show up and participate because they CAN. No tagging of mobs, no lack of reward b/c they don't have the quest, etc etc.

However, in the BWE, because the areas are overwhelmed, it ended up being zergy.

Edited by Catraine, 28 May 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Gilles VI]

It was a BWE, they said they had hundreds of thousands players in it.
That amound was only spread out over 48 servers.
And on those servers alot of people never got out of the 3 starter areas..

From saturday afternoon on I always played in the 15-25 zones and it was much better there, even at the point of lonely!

[Trixh]

Fatalis, on 28 May 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is mainly a problem with having entire populations restricted to only a few zones.

There certainly will be far less zerging as the game progresses and people spread out.

This. /\

BWE was the first time people could finaly play the game. So everybody logged/played like crazy. When the game gets released you will have a zerg as well. Few days after the release it should be nice and spread out.

Edited by Trixh, 28 May 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[RabidusIncendia]

Well still, don't think there won't be guilds either dedicating to throwing zergs around or getting them started, and certainly eventually pepole will amass at the higher end, so it only spreads out so much.

Interestingly, I think there was a thread that stated the opposite problem, however, that a zerg was attempted on some escort missions and scores of mobs started massing and destroying everybody due to event scaling.  So I have to ask if this thread was based on personal experience or a rumor?

[Yski]

Wyrdthane, on 28 May 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

what will be the issue is the ZERG in WvWvW that will never stop.

True, there will probably always be zergs in WvW, but I wouldn't worry about them too much. I hear small, well organized groups managed to kill zergs even during the BWE, imagine what it's going to be like once they've had a few months to practice.

[Choki]

As many of the above posters said it was only for certain levels(the bwe) and the majority of people were in the same zone.
That said, i personally don't mind the zerg nature of the game ( if there is and is going to be any at relase).I actually enjoy taking the boss down asap and doing the event again as soon as it's available.I'm just like that.For instance the corrupted oak-tree-guy-thing in the human area.We killed that thing like 4 times in a row.And i really enjoyed it.

[Cracken]

Wyrdthane, on 28 May 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

What the OP doesn't realize is that Zerg PvE will not be an issue 3 days after release.

what will be the issue is the ZERG in WvWvW that will never stop.

That's obvious, wars tend to involve "zergs", but they also involve small organized groups for skirmishes and all that kind of stuff.

[Guardian of the Light]

The OP does bring up a good issue.

Zergs ruin DEs.

Usually if your adventuring with a group of 5, you can take on most DEs and have fun. At 10-15 DEs usually scale relatively well.

If you get 20 or more (sometimes earlier), DEs start breaking and stop being fun. I don't know why but they simply can't scale well beyond that. Some major DEs can handle large groups of people (the shaman ice boss at the norn starter area comes to mind, no matter how many people there are, you have to avoid the ice shards).


My only piece of advice is: Avoid the zerg while PvEing at all costs if you want to have fun. Probably the best moments of the beta was adventuring with friends in areas that had only a few people in them. Every player was a welcome sight because it meant the tough events were a little bit easier instead of quickly becoming a snoozefest of AoEs.

Edited by Guardian of the Light, 28 May 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[MikeFish]

I plan to do sPvP the first couple of days of the headstart and then start the actual story the day before official release. That SHOULD minimize the zerg factor on release. Ultimately though, you will pretty much only have to put up with this for the first character you make. If after a few weeks you make a second toon, you should be fine with that one.

[borovnica]

I would like to know correct definition of the term ZERG. Does zerg means, big group w/o organization, or does it mean just a really big group.

They way I see it, best Server in WvW will be the one that has most guild that are organized between themselves. It can not be done easily, but again, nothing good is easy. So saying that WvW is going to be a zergfest is a stereotype. I'm willing to bet, that there will be servers that are highly organized, but ofc there will be servers that  don't care about it. That is why we are going to have ranking system in place

Edited by borovnica, 28 May 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[RabidusIncendia]

Oh god not the defintion of zerg, there was a whole massive thread on that

Zerg = unplanned big group, done

[Brynjar]

borovnica, on 28 May 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

I would like to know correct definition of the term ZERG. Does zerg means, big group w/o organization, or does it mean just a really big group.

Originally, it meant overpowering small numbers of individually strong units with large numbers of individually weak units. Basically, the idea of a lizard being killed by hundreds or thousands of ants.

In an MMO, the definition has changed slightly to meaning charging forward using brute force to replace actual strategy. In WoW, for example, a group who has outleveled or outgeared an encounter might ignore the fight's mechanics and simply attack. This would be called 'zerging' it.

In this case, it would be similar - a large group of people ignoring the actual mechanics of the fight and instead simply attacking, using their superior numbers to whittle down the enemy.

[Makovorn]

Many good points already made here. I had the most enjoyment during the "off peak" hours of the BWE, since there were fewer players around, but enough to not make the world feel desolate. Because of the many problems ArenaNet had with the servers, I just simply changed my sleeping schedule around a bit and decided to play during less busier times and I think that was probably a "truer" representation of what the areas would be like post launch.

As others have said, there was one major issue - all players being fairly caged in, in the three 'upto-max-level-25' racial areas. Since most of DE's are designed to only cater for a maximum of 10 players at a time, this presented a major problem in terms of ease of difficulty. It was more like swarms of locusts mowing anything and everything down in it's path, with no enemy, creature or critter spared.

Also, there wasn't too many large scale events going on in the areas .... during my extensive play, I didn't even get to see the Shadow Behemoth. We did give the centaur camp in Queensdale a good spring cleaning though ... and that was fun and very challenging, even with large groups.

I really wouldn't worry too much. Once the game is released, the head-starters would have had their 3 days in game, there will be 5 starting areas (10, if you continue playing the neighboring areas) ... people will be playing the hell out of their personal stories (many probably skipped this, to prevent spoilers) and so on.

In all, the BWE definitely wasn't a good representation of what the game will be like. I treated it more like a uber stress test ... as in "let's see how many players we can cram into a few areas and see how the servers will take it."

Edited by Makovorn, 28 May 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[Omedon]

Look, nothing against the OP, but I have a general issue with people "hating the zerg" in PvE, heck even in WvW.

Do your thing.  That's what you're buying, a world to do your thing in.  If you see a situation to dodge, skill-dance, weapon-swap, buff allies, debuff foes, and you like doing those things, do those things.  If your thing is to soak in the world, and range-autoattack the DE boss next to 10 or 20 other enraptured players doing the exact same thing, do that thing!

What you are not purchasing is the power to "organize" people that are tired of needing organization to enjoy themselves in a mass battle.

I think the "zergs" we're seeing tell us one big thing: "this is how the majority have rathered to do these sorts of things all along"!  I am certainly part of that majority.  RIFT was awesome for this, but GW2 is better for feeling like a contributor at all levels of "give a damn".  If you're sick of a range zerg, go melee, I promise you'll be "challenged", but for those of us tired of  the status quo being "one person scratching their ass wipes the group and costs them the week's progress", I for one welcome our "get as involved, or as un-involved as you like" overlords.

As I've said many times, GW2 is an exciting social experiment, watch the players around you, watch how they take this open world, and open game, and see how they've always wanted to play...

Because it's not like they HAVE to log on to get their monthly money's worth, or because their one and only guild said they had to.

Edited by omedon666, 28 May 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[shyerra hall]

put "Zerg Wars 2" in Youtube doubler with the alternative, and see how much of a problem it is in the context it'll be put into once it's for sale(compared to other mmo's).


http://tinyurl.com/737b9qr

http://tinyurl.com/7qlxcae

http://tinyurl.com/84982ud

http://tinyurl.com/7hht4xx


i want Zerg Wars, and i want it now.

Edited by shyerra hall, 28 May 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[borovnica]

Brynjar, on 28 May 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Originally, it meant overpowering small numbers of individually strong units with large numbers of individually weak units. Basically, the idea of a lizard being killed by hundreds or thousands of ants.

In an MMO, the definition has changed slightly to meaning charging forward using brute force to replace actual strategy. In WoW, for example, a group who has outleveled or outgeared an encounter might ignore the fight's mechanics and simply attack. This would be called 'zerging' it.

In this case, it would be similar - a large group of people ignoring the actual mechanics of the fight and instead simply attacking, using their superior numbers to whittle down the enemy.

Well, hmm, don't know, I still don't think we are going to have zerging in PvE after the release. Now it's only a problem since we had 5 zones where we can play. On release will have 20 more, or 14(if cities are included in 25 zones number.)

[Goodhugh]

Brynjar, on 28 May 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Originally, it meant overpowering small numbers of individually strong units with large numbers of individually weak units. Basically, the idea of a lizard being killed by hundreds or thousands of ants.

In an MMO, the definition has changed slightly to meaning charging forward using brute force to replace actual strategy. In WoW, for example, a group who has outleveled or outgeared an encounter might ignore the fight's mechanics and simply attack. This would be called 'zerging' it.

In this case, it would be similar - a large group of people ignoring the actual mechanics of the fight and instead simply attacking, using their superior numbers to whittle down the enemy.

Yeah, anyone who's played Starcraft knows all about the Zerg.  

[MethaneGas]

Everything will be fine, it was a beta. One of the patch notes for the next BWE is that there will be more monsters when there's more people. After all, the point of a beta is to test how things work, see what needs to be adjusted... so calling GW2 Zerg Wars 2 from just playing a beta makes no sense at all. And I played several events that were not crowded (actually, I prefered events that are not crowded cuz I play with my brother whose laptop is not so good so he lags when there's a lot of people) ...but to the point... there were many events that were not crowded at all, and they were unbelievably fun. In the lower lvl areas it was the most crowded, but even then you could avoid the mob, for the most part. But lower areas are meant to be easy so it's understandable that everything is a breeze.

There was this event in a swamp area filled with zombies that attacked a Sylvari outpost... that was an example of a non-crowded event, no mob, no nothing, just me, my brother and a friend....and a ton of zombies. It was fun We were tactical...and still managed to die in the end.

Edited by MethaneGas, 28 May 2012 - 05:09 PM.