58 replies to this topic

[Dracosblood]

pekkar, on 06 June 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Stop and think. Adding more "pve" servers means adding more WvW servers.

If previous BWE had 45 servers (I didn't count) then it would've had 15 WvWvW matches going at once. 15 instances of Eternal Battlegrounds.

If next BWE were to have 90 servers, then it would have 30 WvWvW matches going at once. Also if each server has a little less people than last BWE then all 3 servers in a match-up will have a little less people queueing to Eternal Battlegrounds.

hmmm good point, wonder if that means we should get a new server list soon.

[Red_Falcon]

These changes are for the good.
This will lure PvE players into WvW so they will try to taste PvP and will ultimately fall in love with it.

[Ivarr_Ironfist]

Terrible idea. One of the things I liked about how ArenaNet was designing WvW was that it was purely for players that actually wanted to compete in PvP. Some of the huge piles of open world PvP fail were at least partially caused by giving players with no interest in open world PvP an incentive to join and use up the queue space.

Wintergrasp for instance, usually had dozens of people queueing with no actual interest in the fight, they were simply there to do their fishing, wait for their "VoAs" to become active and do their daily quests.

If ArenaNet wants to introduce PvE players to WvW, there are better ways of doing it, that don't cause game-play and social problems.

[chuckles79]

Pete, on 05 June 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

I'm failing to see how completeing a jumping puzzle is helping your server.

Hopefully there will be ways this can happen.

I personally want to hide in wait by jumping puzzles in enemy territory.  Wait for them to start and then pick them off with my rifle...Muah huah!

The usefulness of jump puzzles all depend upon what the reward for them is.  If it's just a DE reward, then skrew that noise!

However if the reward is siege weapon plans...then I would rather the broke jokes who do nothing but zerg had an arrow cart on them or a catapult, etc.

That would actually go a good way towards driving better gameplay and more challenge.  Go do a jump challenge, come back and put a canon on your rampart, etc.

[nurt]

chuckles79, on 06 June 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

That would actually go a good way towards driving better gameplay and more challenge.  Go do a jump challenge, come back and put a canon on your rampart, etc.

That sounds like a terrible idea..  You should be doing a jumping puzzle because you feel like doing a jumping puzzle.  Do you really want to be doing it over and over for as part of the WvW fight?  

These are side things to add variety and flavor to the WvW zone.  They should be completely optional and unrelated to the points/two week victory.  It's just another situation and environment where PvP can happen.  

As long as they can get the population caps high enough that they aren't a frequent issue having extra people in the WvW zone not really participating in the 'war effort' (doing pve, puzzles, just ganking, dueling, RP fishing or whatever floats your boat) isn't hurting anyone and it makes the zone feel like more of a complete world than just a big playing field and opens up opportunities for people who are just out hunting for people to kill in interesting places/ways.

[Ivarr_Ironfist]

nurt, on 06 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

As long as they can get the population caps high enough that they aren't a frequent issue having extra people in the WvW zone not really participating in the 'war effort' (doing pve, puzzles, just ganking, dueling, RP fishing or whatever floats your boat) isn't hurting anyone

That's a very big if. The population limit isn't exactly that high per map, GW2wiki says the estimate is ~166 per side (per map). 166 is like three big guilds. I can easily see the Eternal Battlegrounds filling up on most servers at peak time.

[chuckles79]

nurt, on 06 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

That sounds like a terrible idea..  You should be doing a jumping puzzle because you feel like doing a jumping puzzle.  Do you really want to be doing it over and over for as part of the WvW fight?  

These are side things to add variety and flavor to the WvW zone.  They should be completely optional and unrelated to the points/two week victory.  It's just another situation and environment where PvP can happen.  

I strongly disagree with this.  WvW is a form of PvP, and everything you are doing should be towards that effort, even if it's just escorting dolyak's far from the front.

The jumping puzzles should be something that at least contributes slightly.

The simplest means would be a reward that is in equality to the avg time spent upon them.  If it's a puzzle that has a lot of lethal falls and takes 30 min, I want a freaking trebuchet.
If it's a 8 min puzzle that is safe, then perhaps an arrow cart or ram.

[Grey]

I think it's gr8!
It creates additional reasons to visit the mists, not only to kill, crush and destroy ^^
But just imagine: it's a whole new game inside the game!

[Red_Falcon]

Terribad news from Anet.

Q:  Will there be WvW ranks and rank abilities/gear?
A:  There will not be ranks in WvW. -Ferg

So WvW has been finally confirmed to be a distraction for casuals.
They are not taking the best feature of GW2 seriously just because it cannot become "e-sport".
Guess I'll just play the PvE on GW and wait for a game that takes Mass PvP seriously.
They talk a lot about the importance of "fun" yet are giving importance only to unfunny PvP.

Meh, they could have gotten the attention of all DaoC and L2 players but by taking it this way they are really giving us a big disappointment.
To be blunt, as much as I love GW2 its sPvP is nothing new, tournaments are nothing new.
It's the same old arena copypasta with points to flag and little teams to play against, everything equal on both side, bla bla bla.
I got over this boredom years ago. thought GW2 would bring back Mass PvP but whatever.

How can we play WvW competitively if we're not given any rank, ladder, title, nothing?

Edited by Red_Falcon, 06 June 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[asbasb]

Red_Falcon, on 06 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Terribad news from Anet.

They have to be careful with anything that makes WvW more competitive. You can't just go all out and make it a large scale spvp without loosing some of the main features attracting casual and non-competitive pvp players. Maybe they will think of some type of system that makes both sides happy without creating those hostile environments where players are discriminated because they are not playing effectively enough.

[dutch_gamer]

Red_Falcon, on 06 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

How can we play WvW competitively if we're not given any rank, ladder, title, nothing?

That should be one thing we have to keep asking for. I want to see (RvR) ranks as well, but without the abilities. I also don't want a gear treadmill.

As to the dungeon I am not that thrilled about it because it seems it is always open to all servers. So it is not much like Darkness Falls. Another problem I have with it is that it is in the Eternal Battlegrounds map. I don't think people interested in WvW need yet another incentive to play in that particular map. Although I do wonder how long the PvP dungeon will stay fun if it is not instanced like DF.

[sparkykief]

Red_Falcon, on 06 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

How can we play WvW competitively if we're not given any rank, ladder, title, nothing?

The guilds capture forts and such and throw their name on it that kind of gives rep to the guild controlling stonemist but I would like to see more.

[CasualPvP]

Red_Falcon, on 06 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

How can we play WvW competitively if we're not given any rank, ladder, title, nothing?

Tourney-style WvW I think takes that cake. In DAoC I always wanted to see how we fared against other servers. Now we'll have a good idea of what servers really are the best. It is just too hard to measure individual contribution in a mass team sport (at least in simplistic way - anyone who spends time in WvW will know who are the best players regardless of some numbers). The team that wins the most consistently for the longest period of time - now that's something.

[DutchAres]

pekkar, on 06 June 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Stop and think. Adding more "pve" servers means adding more WvW servers.

If previous BWE had 45 servers (I didn't count) then it would've had 15 WvWvW matches going at once. 15 instances of Eternal Battlegrounds.

If next BWE were to have 90 servers, then it would have 30 WvWvW matches going at once. Also if each server has a little less people than last BWE then all 3 servers in a match-up will have a little less people queueing to Eternal Battlegrounds.

I mean they only added overflow servers so no actual new servers to join.. so still only 15 www matches

[Ritualist]

Red_Falcon, on 06 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

How can we play WvW competitively if we're not given any rank, ladder, title, nothing?

And what would the rank, ladder, titles, ... measure in WvW?
Luck?

[CharliePrince]

Pete, on 05 June 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

I'm failing to see how completeing a jumping puzzle is helping your server.

get the skill point, improve your character's strength and therefore help make your server's army stronger just by having you in it

someone who is better levelled/skilled is a god compared to a lvl 2 who insta-WvW'd..

literally that 1 person who is levelled up and have their skills/traits can take on 10 lvl 2's who simply entered the mists

[Corvindi]

I love this.  Now I'm hoping I'll be able to go into WvW and not have to come out unless I feel like a change of pace.

[Kymeric]

DutchAres, on 07 June 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

I mean they only added overflow servers so no actual new servers to join.. so still only 15 www matches

Where are you getting that information?

There are twice as many server names on the list as there were in BWE1.

[Red_Falcon]

Politoed, on 08 June 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

And what would the rank, ladder, titles, ... measure in WvW?
Luck?

Guess you never played DaoC and L2.

Mass PvP takes a lot more skill than structured PvP ever could, because you have to pit your team against much larger ones.
When you have 40 players vs 200 to win you need major skill and coordination, it's much harder than taking down a team of 5 people.

[CatMountainKing]

The jumping puzzles were great; I don't know how people can hate on them.  If we could get some fighting down there it would have been epic.

[sparkykief]

After playing the new additions to WvW  in BEW2 I stand by my topic title just what it needed. I enjoyed playing around in the mini dungeon and getting NPCs on my teams’ side threw the use of dynamic events. Then once they are on your side they help to rade other teams’ points.  

CatMountainKing, on 11 June 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

The jumping puzzles were great; I don't know how people can hate on them.  If we could get some fighting down there it would have been epic.

I fought some fun battles down there people getting pushed and feared of the edge good times.

[Ritualist]

Red_Falcon, on 10 June 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Guess you never played DaoC and L2.

Mass PvP takes a lot more skill than structured PvP ever could, because you have to pit your team against much larger ones.
When you have 40 players vs 200 to win you need major skill and coordination, it's much harder than taking down a team of 5 people.

That's like saying that PvE takes more skill than PvP, because in PvP player are of equal strength while the PvE foes completely over-power you.
WvW isn't designed to be played competitively.

Edited by Politoed, 11 June 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

Politoed, on 11 June 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

That's like saying that PvE takes more skill than PvP, because in PvP player are of equal strength while the PvE foes completely over-power you.

That's complete nonsense.
Defeating a 20man team with a 5man team is - objectively - more difficult than defeating another 5man team.
It's a mathematical fact; if you want to argue 5 is greater than 20 I think you'll have to write a lot more than a two-liner on a gaming forum.

Politoed, on 11 June 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

WvW isn't designed to be played competitively.

WvW, just like any other form of mass PvP, is the pinnacle of PvP strategy and coordination as many other games proved for decades.
The fact Anet decided to dumb it down for PvE players doesn't make this any less true.

Dedicating a mass pvp zone to casuals proved to be a failing strategy in the past (Aion), as people will find no reward in that system and ultimately make little use of it if not for casual fun.
Casual fun taking up most of your server load and your players isn't really the brightest idea imo.

Hardcore PvPers are people who require different forms of rewarding pvp to be satisfied - in fact there has been a lot of complaining already from the PvP core about HA and GvG systems being gone and WvW being dedicated to casuals.
PvPers are looking for something different, if they wanted the same old arena system they could remain in WoW.
Talking about WoW, even that game, as faulty as it can be, gives you a reward for Mass PvP.
BGs offer honor and badges, not "PvE stuff".


All this should ring a bell to anyone with a critical mind.

[Quickfoot]

Ivarr_Ironfist, on 06 June 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Terrible idea. One of the things I liked about how ArenaNet was designing WvW was that it was purely for players that actually wanted to compete in PvP. Some of the huge piles of open world PvP fail were at least partially caused by giving players with no interest in open world PvP an incentive to join and use up the queue space.
ways of doing it, that don't cause game-play and social problems.

Anet never said it was designed purely for players to compete in PvP. On the contrary, they stated WvW was going to be the bridge between PVP and PVE. This is why they include mobs, skill challenge and puzzles. They want to offer a PvP experience in a PVE environment. This also why the game isnt shipping with WvW tournaments. When asked about it, they said they would consider if it was really a demanded feature by the community, but they werent thinking of adding it.

[Dracosblood]

So your saying then that people like Goldenrice who power level to 65 (nothing against Rice) should be extra rewarded for being able to roll over groups of people, think he stated he won in a 2v15?? (again nothing against Rice, he is a skilled player)  Aion's abyss had Ranking for the open pvp area, just like what you want for this game, Aion's Abyss failed for so many reasons that had NOTHING to do with Casual game play.

[Ritualist]

Red_Falcon, on 12 June 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

All this should ring a bell to anyone with a critical mind.

Structured exists.
Any player that is serious about PvP in GW2 (if such people will even exist given how GW2 is primarily a PvE game) will play Structured because it's just built better as a PvP game. WvW will be the "fun" format instead.

(As for the 5 man group wining over the 20 man group: if the 20 man group is actually good, the 5 man group won't win. That's why nobody gives a shit about PvE players taking down thousands of monsters, whereas folks drool over a guy taking on a single guy and taking him down - winning against shit is irrelevant.)

[Red_Falcon]

Politoed, on 12 June 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Structured exists.
Any player that is serious about PvP in GW2 (if such people will even exist given how GW2 is primarily a PvE game) will play Structured because it's just built better as a PvP game. WvW will be the "fun" format instead.

Oh yeah, the old "but everyone agrees with me" argument.
There are thousands of posts in this forum where players, -especially- those who are serious about PvP, posted their disappointed for how Anet made WvW for casuals instead of a real pvp environment.

Moreover, claiming RvR or mass pvp of any sort to be non-competitive by default means not having played any of the fundamental MMOs from UO to today.
Games such as UO, L2, Aion, DaoC and WoW all have a form of mass PvP and it gives players PvP rewards.
BGs in WoW give honor and badges to get pvp items and other pvp-related rewards.
L2 has massive sieges that give you the control of a castle you can use to tax towns and build pvp power / buy pvp items.
Aion gives pvp rewards of all sorts for doing Abyss.
Daoc... well that game even got ranks for rvr.

Again, if all of what I posted and the thousands of posts around here so far don't ring any bell to you, nor does the fact that any and every single successful, history-writing MMO has a competitive form of mass PvP / RvR, then I'll just take you're walled into your opinionated vision - in which case there is little one can do.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 13 June 2012 - 07:20 AM.

[Goldenrice]

i'm laughing at everyone thinking WvW is only about zerging and taking fort keeps

Its open world pvp, and puzzles can be a nice place to pvp away from forts.

Edited by Goldenrice, 13 June 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Ritualist]

But are those formats you listed actually good PvP formats?.
A format that is able to stand next to SC or DOTA? Do they matter on the same level?

I am not saying people won't be competitive playing it - but people are also competitive when participating in Wipeout. Or eating hot-dogs.
Or playing PvE, for that matter.