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Now THAT'S what i call a class mechanic!

necromancer necro class mechanic death shroud fear life force skills suggestion fix feedback

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#1 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:35 AM

I felt that necro needed a bit more focus on it's class mechanic to make it stand out, so I came up with the following suggestion. I'm going to make comparisons to thief because I feel it is in a similar situation, yet certain factors are being overlooked.

First, class mechanics go further than just the F skills, however for the necro this is less apparent. For example, fear is meant to be a class mechanic, yet there simply aren't enough skills that inflict it. The staff is the only weapon with a fear skill. When looking at the thief however, they have dual weapon skills, Every weapon combo gives a special skill. While this is a lesser mechanic, it is definitive in every weapon combo and stands out more as a mechanic than fear.

Second, life force only really exists for death shroud, which I find pretty boring. it's always the same, always has the same skills, always used as a panic button and never really feels like it sets necros apart. In contrast, the thief has steal which, although needs work in itself, provides a variety of abilities, meaning there is always a motivation to use it.

Third, necros are supposed to focus on inflicting conditions and buffing allies, yet the conditions they inflict don't feel particularly unique because every class seems to spam conditions in this game, and their buffs (ie removing conditions from allies) are available to other classes too so necros just don't seem to shine.

Fourth, the following is stated on the official wiki: "Necromancers are masters of the dark arts. They summon the dead to fight for them, channel blood energy and rend their enemies' souls. Necromancers draw on life force and use it to strengthen or heal themselves and others."

This is completely untrue because they do not spend life force on strengthening or healing allies. My suggestion addresses this description and fits more with the official description.

Fifth, A class mechanic should be something that shines through in the majority of your playtime as that class. Currently, death shroud is used in the Minority of our playtime (because we use it purely for survival when health is low and healing is on cooldown). This is backwards. We should have a way of playing with our class mechanic, the very thing that makes us different, in the major part of our playtime, not the minor. My idea addresses this because it gives us a chance to constantly way up our options and make a decision on whether sacrifice life force for an immediate benefit, whether we sacrifice it to benefit allies or ourselves, or whether we conserve it to the last moment for that all important death shroud.


I have therefore come up with an idea which I feel may help to diversify necro a bit more and make them 'feel' more unique. It comes in the form of F skills, because I feel that these are instant indicators of class disparity, as well as bonus skills which do not take a space on the utility bar, therefore providing you with a bonus class ability that other classes would need to use a utility slot to accomplish (for example, other classes have 'panic button' skills, but they aren't free to them like the necro's F1).

My idea is to add another core mechanic in the form of 'Offerings'. i was considering 'Rituals' but I believe other classes already have 'Ritual' skills, so this has more identity.

The plan:

Firstly, change the life force bar by breaking it into 6 mini bars (or charges), similar to the warrior's 3 adrenaline ones. Then add the following skills which act as toggle abilities. Ie, you activate, and they drain 1 charge of life force every 4 seconds and provide an effect, until you press the button again to deactivate them. The final one has the exception of taking 2 charges per pulse instead.

F1: Keep as death shroud - It works, but alone is just too plain. The following skills should solve that. (The 'pulses' of life force degeneration would not be required here either).

F2: Blood Offering - You sacrifice life force to inflict bleeding on surrounding enemies every few seconds. (Traits could then multiply this effect or add other conditions). it can be accompanied by a bleeding animation on your character to show they are sacrificing blood to do it.

F3: Life Offering - You sacrifice life force and convert it into healing for yourself and allies. (Traits could add additional effects to this, such as condition removal per pulse). It can be accompanied by a spiritual aura to show life pulsing from your character.

F4: Death Offering: You sacrifice 2 stacks of life force per pulse to inflict a 1 second fear on surrounding enemies. (Traits could either up the fear duration, or add additional effects, such as buffing yourself and allies). This can be accompanied by a skull simply flashing over your characters head or something as a visual indicator.

I believe this will not only provide the necro with a more solid grounding in it's current mechanic, but would also allow for more varied play styles as death shroud alone just doesn't feel like enough.

It can also be tweaked a bit through testing (ie the seconds per pulse can vary between each skill) but I somewhat addressed this by making the final one take 2 pulses as I feel it could become overpowered otherwise.

Would love to hear peoples feedback on this.

EDIT: I would like to add my replies further down the list to save trawling through to see other suggestions I've made to this.

1. Blood offering could potentially act as a life steal instead of bleeding. (someone said they felt necro needed more lifesteal). Maybe it could simply add lifesteal to attacks, or drain a bit of health every pulse.

2. Someone stated that traits such as blood, death and curse needed work. My reply is that each of the proposed abilities could have traits in their respective trees. I had taken them into account when thinking up the idea. Ie, death offering can have traits in death tree, blood in blood. this way, our trait specs feed a little more into class mechanics meaning more build options without necessarily forcing us into 'turtle spamming' death shroud.

3. Others stated that death offering looks too overpowered. I suggest it either using all or half of our life force. If all then possible traits could allow us to increase duration to 2 seconds, or retains a bit of the life-force spent (ie 25-30%).

4. Each of the proposed skills can have individual or global cooldowns for more balance.

5. Some people are saying necros just need lifesteal and traits reworked. My suggestion addresses both of these issues because it adds a lifesteal ability, and traits can be altered to match the new skills.

6. Some have believed I seek to revamp death shroud. this is not the case. i am suggesting we leave it in, how it is (fix the traits though) but add these other skills that utilize life force to even us out a bit more.

----> 7. Others have said that they don't use Death Shroud purely for survival, and instead spam it every time LF if full. That is fair enough, however I still feel this is problematic gameplay-wise. Having an either-or scenario, where you either use it every minute, or every time you need to survive, makes it get boring pretty quickly. Imagine 80 levels, plus end-game, just spamming it non-stop. The same four skills over and over. The same grinding strategy. GW2 is meant to avoid boring, routine builds. Forcing necro into a black and white 'spam or save' does not solve this. My suggestion is not intended to totally revamp necro, nor break it in any way. I am simply suggestion something which fits the class description and allows for more diverse and strategic gameplay. Having us constantly decide how we spend our life force, in a similar yet different fashion to thief's initiative, will mix up gameplay and the suggested abilities will allow for a wider variety of build<----


What I have created is merely a base idea so i'm still looking for it to be revised and balanced.

EDIT 2: Suggestion by Thyar

Thyar took a look at my idea and made an alternate version which I believe to be simpler yet still running on the idea of out-of-death-shroud abilities. I believe his idea may be a bit simpler and and easier to balance so I could see it becoming a more viable option.

"F1 – Death Shroud with its usual skills.

F2 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each of the Necro's weapon attacks to steal health (per attack) from an enemy for 6 seconds. This would stack with other life stealing skills, effects from sigils, etc...

F3 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each of the Necro's weapon attacks to provide health (per attack) for self and nearby (within 600 feet) allies - including pets, minions, and illusions - for 6 seconds.

F4 - sacrifices Life Force to inflict a random condition on an enemy for each attack that the Necro receives (infliction period lasts for 6 seconds)


I would make the cost for F2 to F4 abilities a flat 33% cost of one's total LifeForce bar, to help keep this balanced.

Unless I am mistaken here, all Necros of whatever playstyle and weapon sets would receive some benefit from at least two of those three.

I reduced the duration time for F2 to F4 from 7 seconds to 6 seconds, which at a 1.5 average basic attack from an enemy would mean they trigger (in optimal situations) for about 4 attacks. "

It still gives us a bit more to play with as death shroud always has a chance of being a panic button, and alone makes the class a one-trick pony. This addition adds strategy because spending life-force means potentially weaker death shroud duration if it is needed, but that sacrificial nature of combat feeds well into the nature of the necromancer.

Please Read

I think I need to clarify something about this thread. It is not a 'let's knock death shroud' or 'death shroud sucks' thread. The purpose of this Thread is to suggest that Necromancer overall needs a bit more class identity. I feel that Life force could have been a much better mechanic, but all it is is a fancy cooldown for death shroud. I don't want to lose or replace death shroud, I simply want to add diversity to the class to utilize it's unique resource, and in doing so will give the class something unique to accomplish OTHER than death shroud. All other classes have other mechanics aside from their 'main' ones. Necro apparently has life-stealing and fearing as a core mechanic, but this really does not shine through. I am proposing a way to utilize life force as the class was described to do, and to give it more identity when not using death shroud. As an example, people notice the warrior's unique style even when they aren't using their burst skills. People notice the thief's unique style even when he isn't stealing. they notice the Mesmer's identity even when they aren't shattering their illusions. What do they notice about the necromancer that the other classes aren't already doing?


Thanks again for the great response so far!

Edited by Majigor, 14 June 2012 - 09:39 AM.


#2 Sprawl

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:17 AM

They need to do something keep seeing more posts about how necros are boring, lack synergy or any real role after each bwe.

#3 razor39999

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 05:08 AM

I actually think the necro class mechanic is one of the better developed ones. The thing that needs reworking is the blood/lifestealing skills.

#4 Draehl

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 07:24 AM

The problem isn't the overall mechanic of life force and the specific form, but rather the blandness of the skills in DS and that it ultimately comes down to turtle mode and life blast spam. Turtle mode works for everyone and can easily be enhanced by dropping just 10 in Soul Reaping to pick up Vital Persistence. Power/Crit damage builds specced deeply into Spite and/or Soul Reaping also make great use of it. But the other three trait lines: Blood, Curse, and Death benefit marginally and have slapped on effects when you enter or exit Death Shroud. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the idea of shroud dancing as a sub-build, but in my opinion the skills within Death Shroud should be interesting and useful to all specs.

This isn't a Necro specific problem, however. One can point to various examples such as ranged Thieves having little/no use for Steal and the generally poor opinion of toolbelt skills of Engineers. Other professions suffering from the same design weaknesses shouldn't be an excuse to write of the problems of Death Shroud. And when I say design weakness I'm not trying to be cruel or overly critical of Anet, but simply stating my viewpoint to hopefully spur changes before release.

#5 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 07:33 AM

My suggestion could be tweaked a bit. Perhaps Blood offering could act as a life steal instead, Draining life from the enemy and making them bleed. Life offering could then sacrifice a bit of health each pulse also. If used at the same time it could be effective yet cost more life force due to having two active, therefore feeding in to the sacrificial image of a necromancer?

View PostDraehl, on 13 June 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

The problem isn't the overall mechanic of life force and the specific form, but rather the blandness of the skills in DS and that it ultimately comes down to turtle mode and life blast spam. Turtle mode works for everyone and can easily be enhanced by dropping just 10 in Soul Reaping to pick up Vital Persistence. Power/Crit damage builds specced deeply into Spite and/or Soul Reaping also make great use of it. But the other three trait lines: Blood, Curse, and Death benefit marginally and have slapped on effects when you enter or exit Death Shroud. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the idea of shroud dancing as a sub-build, but in my opinion the skills within Death Shroud should be interesting and useful to all specs.

This isn't a Necro specific problem, however. One can point to various examples such as ranged Thieves having little/no use for Steal and the generally poor opinion of toolbelt skills of Engineers. Other professions suffering from the same design weaknesses shouldn't be an excuse to write of the problems of Death Shroud. And when I say design weakness I'm not trying to be cruel or overly critical of Anet, but simply stating my viewpoint to hopefully spur changes before release.

I did briefly mention that thief steal has its own problems right now. The focus I wanted to make on this thread was that, while I am aware of design issues with other classes, I feel that the necro, in comparison, is lacking enough class Identity that is inherent within other classes. Although the toolbelt skills for engineer aren't highly favored just yet, the class itself has enough of a 'feel' to it gameplay wise to stand out. If you try out every class then try necro, it feels very lacking in terms of individuality.

View PostDraehl, on 13 June 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

But the other three trait lines: Blood, Curse, and Death benefit marginally and have slapped on effects when you enter or exit Death Shroud. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the idea of shroud dancing as a sub-build, but in my opinion the skills within Death Shroud should be interesting and useful to all specs.

My idea took trait trees like this into account. Each one can be specced under a different tree. Eg, Blood offering has traits in blood. Life has them in soul reaping. Death has them in death tree. They all act to provide different play styles. A necro specced in blood and death could focus on bleeding and fearing the enemy (inflicting conditions). A necro specced in soul reaping could focus on buffing the party through life offering etc...

Edited by Majigor, 13 June 2012 - 07:34 AM.


#6 Draehl

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 07:35 AM

Oh, I wasn't trying to derail the thread to talk about Thieves. I just know when discussing this particular issue in the past someone always comes up with one of the examples I listed as a reason why DS shouldn't be useful to certain trait lines. "Classes X/Y/Z have this problem too, therefore it's not a problem." is their flawed logic.

Edit: And I likes your ideas, I was actually replying to razor39999.

Edited by Draehl, 13 June 2012 - 07:37 AM.


#7 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 07:39 AM

Sorry I didn't meant o come off as aggressive, just trying to give fleshed out answers. I think my idea can incorporate his mention of lifestealing also. I've tried to make it varied yet unique to the class.

#8 nXken

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:42 AM

Sounds pretty fun to me.
But I don't think that this will see release. Maybe for the first X-pack?

#9 aequitaz2k

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 11:10 AM

Myself from BWE Forums said:

A different idea could be to implement variations of Death Shroud – so something like:
F1: Tank/Panic Button DS
—> reduce life blast damage, add x toughness while in this “stance”, move dark pact to F2 and replace it with a stability/speed buff skill.
F2: Damage Dealing DS
First Skill: Same damage as life blast but always piercing and with projectile finisher for combos.
Second Skill: Dark Path + leaving a poison or ice line behind you.
Third Skill: AoE “Life Blasts” with short range, less damage and less life force consumption.
Fourth Skill: AoE Cripple and Bleed
F3: Healing/Support DS
First Skill: grant all allies regeneration (costs x life force per ally)
Second Skill: grant all allies life steal (costs x life force per ally)
Third Skill: Use all your life force to revive a downed or fallen (again could be too strong) ally – if you have specced into more life force your ally comes back with more HP.
Fourth Skill: AoE Heal – heals x% per life force (max 30% hp) – 3 allies get healed for 30% each, 5 allies get healed for 20% each (if you have specced into more life force it can go up to 5 allies get healed for 30% each). – Could be problematic with minions – maybe use a priority system like players first and then from lowest to highest HP% receive the heal.
F4: Maybe some sort of heavy condition and crowd control DS
First Skill: Something similar to plague (not as strong of course)
Second Skill: Maybe AoE Daze or Fear
Third Skill: massive AoE Vulnerability
Fourth Skill: AoE Poison & Bleed
Of course the skill are not really thought through – thats just what I came up with while writing this text, but with some work and balancing this could definitely add some variety to the necro in the future.
Oh and F1-F4 DS should have different visual effectsPosted Image

Posted in https://forum-en.gui...ge/1#post268138
Would be a lot of work - so probably after release/when an expansion comes out, but they definitely have to expand the things you can do with your life force. Additional/Different Shrouds would be perfect imho. Oh and we need an elite well ;)

Edited by aequitaz2k, 13 June 2012 - 11:10 AM.


#10 Nyth

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 11:31 AM

Although I would love to see some variations on Death Shroud; I do think that in the bigger picture it's a pretty well rounded class mechanic at the moment.

I do agree though that necro's need a little something. First think I would like to see is have some synergy fixes on the weapons. And as the OP says, I would rather have them add more unique animations and utility to certain spells.

Also when I'm playing other classes and I compare the bigger picture (I know one of you stated this as a bad argument, but I find it to be fair to compare certain components); Death Shroud as an F-skill doesn't is actually one of the more dynamic ones.  It might not be as weaved into combat as say the elementalist has it's F skills. But it's not somewhat lame like the thief's or the guardian's.

What I DO notice is how our weapon abilities leave something to be desired. Quickly taking the Ranger's class mechanic with pets (because ranger is my other class choice); pet's really are not much better or worse than death shroud IMO. However what rangers do have over us is weapon skills that first of all interact with the class mechanic, something a lot of other classes share; and that their weapon sets seem to have superior flow. Every skill has a reason other than just "It's off cooldown so I'll use it". I miss that on the necromancer (with the exception of Axe/Warhorn which feels really solid).

#11 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 11:41 AM

View PostNyth, on 13 June 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Although I would love to see some variations on Death Shroud; I do think that in the bigger picture it's a pretty well rounded class mechanic at the moment.

I do agree though that necro's need a little something. First think I would like to see is have some synergy fixes on the weapons. And as the OP says, I would rather have them add more unique animations and utility to certain spells.

Also when I'm playing other classes and I compare the bigger picture (I know one of you stated this as a bad argument, but I find it to be fair to compare certain components); Death Shroud as an F-skill doesn't is actually one of the more dynamic ones.  It might not be as weaved into combat as say the elementalist has it's F skills. But it's not somewhat lame like the thief's or the guardian's.

What I DO notice is how our weapon abilities leave something to be desired. Quickly taking the Ranger's class mechanic with pets (because ranger is my other class choice); pet's really are not much better or worse than death shroud IMO. However what rangers do have over us is weapon skills that first of all interact with the class mechanic, something a lot of other classes share; and that their weapon sets seem to have superior flow. Every skill has a reason other than just "It's off cooldown so I'll use it". I miss that on the necromancer (with the exception of Axe/Warhorn which feels really solid).

Exactly, my thinking was that the overall feel of necro didn't offer anything different to other classes. Ie, ele can swap elements in combat and literally change strategy to match, thief can swap weapon sets, but their initiative and dual skills give a different feel and strategy. Ranger can swap pets as well as weapons, and weapons skils seem to be better in giving the feel of a ranger. Then we come to necro who has weapon skills, an apparently unique 'fear' condition which is only available on one of those weapons, and no other base mechanics (without utility skills) to really make us stand out. (I'm ignoring class F skills here as I feel other class weapon skills still do something in the way of creating play mechanics for that class).

#12 Darkheron

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 11:54 AM

I like the spirit of the idea but tbh this effectively adds 3 quick recharging freely usable utility slots.  Giving necros these abilities would pretty much crush any balance this class has atm and make it ridiculously OP IMO. Death Shround ( especially upgraded ) is already bordering on OP with cheezy shroud dancing builds.  

If the idea is to make DS more interesting, then these utilities should be available only inside DS... so just expanding the number of skills in DS is a much better idea IMO.

#13 Aesto

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:13 PM

While I guess that you could make the argument that Death Shroud by itself is too bland (I disagree with this vehemently, especially for PvP, but that's not even my point here), it is easily already one of the strongest class mechanics, perhaps even the strongest. Adding further class mechanics to the Necromancer would simply make it way too strong.
Especially your F4 ability would be just plain overpowered. A Necromancer with a full life force bar would be able to take/defend a capture point against multiple enemies all by himself. And I also disagree with the point that the class doesn't have enough fear mechanics. Fear is a very, very powerful condition and shouldn't be too easily accessible. Death Shroud is therefore a pretty good implementation of it.
Overall, I feel that the Necromancer is one of the most 'polished' professions and already fairly well-balanced. Far-reaching changes to the class, as proposed by you, are therefore unnecessary in my opinion.

#14 Hika

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostSprawl, on 13 June 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

They need to do something keep seeing more posts about how necros are boring, lack synergy or any real role after each bwe.

/agree

Coming from MMOrpgs such as Vanguard: Saga of Heroes where I played Necromancers as my main characters and favorite class.. I surprisingly found GW2's necromancer to be disappointingly boring.. Heck it's my least favorite spell caster in GW2, that says a lot since I typicaly hate elementalists/sorcs and enchanters/psionicists..

It left me with to much to desire in the areas of Death Shroud, Liche Form, Fear, Lifetaps, Pets.
Not to mention lack of Feign Death / Rest of the Dead, which understandingly it's mechanics would work differently in the world of GW2.

I'm trying to hold my breath on the class until release

Edited by Hika, 13 June 2012 - 12:38 PM.


#15 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostDarkheron, on 13 June 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

I like the spirit of the idea but tbh this effectively adds 3 quick recharging freely usable utility slots.  Giving necros these abilities would pretty much crush any balance this class has atm and make it ridiculously OP IMO. Death Shround ( especially upgraded ) is already bordering on OP with cheezy shroud dancing builds.  

If the idea is to make DS more interesting, then these utilities should be available only inside DS... so just expanding the number of skills in DS is a much better idea IMO.

View PostAesto, on 13 June 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

While I guess that you could make the argument that Death Shroud by itself is too bland (I disagree with this vehemently, especially for PvP, but that's not even my point here), it is easily already one of the strongest class mechanics, perhaps even the strongest. Adding further class mechanics to the Necromancer would simply make it way too strong.
Especially your F4 ability would be just plain overpowered. A Necromancer with a full life force bar would be able to take/defend a capture point against multiple enemies all by himself. And I also disagree with the point that the class doesn't have enough fear mechanics. Fear is a very, very powerful condition and shouldn't be too easily accessible. Death Shroud is therefore a pretty good implementation of it.
Overall, I feel that the Necromancer is one of the most 'polished' professions and already fairly well-balanced. Far-reaching changes to the class, as proposed by you, are therefore unnecessary in my opinion.

They can each have a cooldown, or share a global cooldown. My idea was just the bones, It can be fleshed out a little more to give it balance. I just felt that necro seemed to be lacking anything that really makes it different as a class.

In fact, the fear one at the end could even use up ALL the life force as a one time fear. Traits could extend the duration to 2 seconds, or allow us to retain say 30% of the life force when using it instead.

#16 Thyar

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

I really like the spirit of this idea, Majigor
However, I have a bit of trouble with the implementation ala the F keys.

Instead of doing that, but continuing to run with what I think is the vibe that you're bringing up here, I suggest simply providing Necros with more options for skills to use during Deathshroud.

Perhaps such extra skills could be determined according to the weapons we have equipped.

#17 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:33 PM

View PostThyar, on 13 June 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

I really like the spirit of this idea, Majigor
However, I have a bit of trouble with the implementation ala the F keys.

Instead of doing that, but continuing to run with what I think is the vibe that you're bringing up here, I suggest simply providing Necros with more options for skills to use during Deathshroud.

Perhaps such extra skills could be determined according to the weapons we have equipped.

Definitely. I chose to go with something different here because I know others have suggested similar ideas. I think however we look at it we need more of an incentive for using our life force. the idea of different death shroud abilities is one way of implementing this, and my suggestion was another that allowed for more mechanics outside of death shroud instead. My reasoning being that other class mechanics are weaved in to the class (thief being a good example with initiative and dual skills). So offering other ways to weave in the supposed mechanics (Life stealing and fear) would make the class feel more fleshed out, rather than a one-trick pony.

#18 Thyar

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:57 PM

Okay, I think I get more of what you mean now.
Well - let me see if I can run with this a bit more then....

If I have this right, and in light of the suggestions you already made, then I would suggest the following three:


F1 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each attack to steal health from an enemy for 7 seconds.  This would stack with other life stealing skills, effects from sigils, etc...

F2 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each attack to provide health for self and nearby (within 600 feet) allies - including pets, minions, and illusions - for 7 seconds.

F3 - sacrifices Life Force to inflict a random condition on an enemy for each attack the Necro receives (infliction period lasts for 7 seconds)


I would make the cost for each of those out-of-DS abilities a flat 33% cost of one's total LifeForce bar, to help keep this balanced.

Unless I am mistaken here, all Necros of whatever playstyle and weapon sets would receive some benefit from at least two of those three.

Edited by Thyar, 13 June 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#19 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:04 PM

View PostThyar, on 13 June 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Okay, I think I get more of what you mean now.
Well - let me see if I can run with this a bit more then....

If I have this right, and in light of the suggestions you already made, then I would suggest the following three:


F1 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each attack to steal health from an enemy for 7 seconds.  This would stack with other life stealing skills, effects from sigils, etc...

F2 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each attack to provide health for self and allies (including pets, minions, and illusions) for 7 seconds.

F3 - sacrifices Life Force to inflict a random condition on an enemy for each attack the Necro receives (infliction period lasts for 7 seconds)


I would make the cost for each of those out-of-DS abilities a flat 33% cost of one's total LifeForce bar, to help keep this balanced.

Unless I am mistaken here, all Necros of whatever playstyle and weapon sets would receive some benefit from at least two of those three.

Aha I hadn't considered simple duration buffs instead. That's also a good idea and possibly a bit easier to get to grips with than what I suggested.

Yeah I just felt that whatever happens with death shroud it always has the chance of falling into a panic button first, useful skills later. I also felt that even if they tweak death shroud we are still left with just one black and white class mechanic, rather than a more generalized feel to being a distinct class.

Thanks so much for your input though I really like your version :). I can see it balancing well.

#20 Nyth

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostAesto, on 13 June 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

While I guess that you could make the argument that Death Shroud by itself is too bland (I disagree with this vehemently, especially for PvP, but that's not even my point here), it is easily already one of the strongest class mechanics, perhaps even the strongest. Adding further class mechanics to the Necromancer would simply make it way too strong.
Especially your F4 ability would be just plain overpowered. A Necromancer with a full life force bar would be able to take/defend a capture point against multiple enemies all by himself. And I also disagree with the point that the class doesn't have enough fear mechanics. Fear is a very, very powerful condition and shouldn't be too easily accessible. Death Shroud is therefore a pretty good implementation of it.
Overall, I feel that the Necromancer is one of the most 'polished' professions and already fairly well-balanced. Far-reaching changes to the class, as proposed by you, are therefore unnecessary in my opinion.

I agree with the fact that death shroud as a class mechanic feels rather solid and even on the strong side if you compare it to other classes.

However, you can not with a straight face say that the necromancer feels polished if you have played any of the other classes. Take your warrior or your elementalist or your ranger. Use all their weapon skills and just feel how they interact with each other; each ability has it's place and it's purpose and this whole .... "Feeling" or Synergy or whatever you want to call it, is simply missing from a large number of necromancer abilities, mostly weapon but also utility.

I do disagree on us getting more F-skills though. I think that's the wrong area to fix things, because it isn't broken really.

Edited by Nyth, 13 June 2012 - 02:08 PM.


#21 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:24 PM

Thyar, I hope you don't mind, but I included your idea in my ongoing edits as I really like what you did with mine :)

View PostNyth, on 13 June 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I agree with the fact that death shroud as a class mechanic feels rather solid and even on the strong side if you compare it to other classes.

However, you can not with a straight face say that the necromancer feels polished if you have played any of the other classes. Take your warrior or your elementalist or your ranger. Use all their weapon skills and just feel how they interact with each other; each ability has it's place and it's purpose and this whole .... "Feeling" or Synergy or whatever you want to call it, is simply missing from a large number of necromancer abilities, mostly weapon but also utility.

I do disagree on us getting more F-skills though. I think that's the wrong area to fix things, because it isn't broken really.

Agreed on the weapon skills. I think looking at weapon skills and tweaking them could also add the polish the class needs if done correctly, providing the skills didn't end up samey (ie adding fear or life-stealing to more skills for the sake of necro getting more of it's signature moves). It's certainly something worth considering.

I just had a look at the official wiki statement regarding necromancer, and it said this:

"Necromancers are masters of the dark arts. They summon the dead to fight for them, channel blood energy and rend their enemies' souls. Necromancers draw on life force and use it to strengthen or heal themselves and others"

It's funny really, because it's not actually true, yet my suggestion makes it true! LOL.

Here is the link:http://wiki.guildwar...iki/Necromancer

Edited by Majigor, 13 June 2012 - 02:17 PM.


#22 Thyar

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:30 PM

I don't mind at all!  

I'm just trying to run here with this a little more, now that I think that I get what you were getting at.  I like the idea of making Life Force add a bit of OOMPH! to what I consider to be our signature Profession abilities - stealing health, sharing health, and inflicting conditions.

But only temporarily (it could even be just 6 seconds, which would allow such Life Force bonus effects to last for four 1.5 second average attacks in ideal situations).  It seems as if boosting those three signature Profession abilities would benefit all Necros.  I'm especially thinking that the F2 suggestion would be of great benefit for minion master Necros who are having some concerns about minion health.

And, at a hefty 33% cost of our total Life Force bar, it sets up a "skill bar" involving weighing costs/benefits - because each Necro carefully has to consider whether or not such bonuses are worth it, knowing that it's going to reduce Death Shroud time in the balance.  So no one will be spamming all three of the bonuses, then popping into Death Shroud turtle mode as usual for full duration on top of it all.

Edited by Thyar, 13 June 2012 - 02:31 PM.


#23 LastDay

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:54 PM

I don't really like are how weak life steals are and Minions feel a bit iffy too, but Death Shroud is probably my favorite thing about the Necromancer.
Still, I do think that it might be nice to have other ways to spend Life Force, maybe on some version of "Blood is Power" or something related to conditions.

Steal is considered by many to be the worst Profession Mechanic due to being unreliable thanks to randomness, so I'm surprised you like it.

#24 Thyar

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 02:58 PM

Well, LastDay - what is being suggested here is adding an F ability, which would cost a significant chunk of Life Force, that would temporarily enable all our attacks (regardless of weapon) to steal life.  In the case of staff marks, it could be set up to steal life when the marks are triggered by an enemy.  

The amount of life stolen from this Life Force bonus ability would have to be made worth that hefty cost, because it would significantly reduce our resource there for being in Death Shroud.

#25 Requiamer

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:10 PM

Ds i also one of my preferred aspect in the class, the core mechanism is just good to me, it need some balance work but certainly not a revamp as the OP is suggesting. They are a lot of other domain of necro Anet actually have to concentrate to give more variety to the class, and why change something that work well, the best in the class?. Once more balance it but don't revamp it. What could be nice though is that life force would be used for other core aspect of the class like for life stealing or other builds main skills, but consume life force from skills using is different than changing the F1 DS on necro.

#26 styken

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:53 PM

for me is good at is now.
DS is already one of the most powerfull tools on the game, give options to how to use Life Force and you will see even more complains about how Necro are OP and other stuff like that (people who say this in general are people who never play a Necro).

i often see people say DS is a crap for Necro condition, well in this BW i learn DS is amazing for Necro conditions build.
people want DS have some skill to inflict conditions, sorry but after what i saw on this BW this will be so OP.
be imune to damage and still keep inflict conditions where damage mitigate all armour and dont have any penalize with decrease Life force will kill anyone so easy.

they could penalize the conditions with the amount LF we have, but i dont see how they can do that to conditions.
for me  the only thing Necro need is all traits work (lot of them still dont work) and improve life steal and dagger (i dont see any reason choose dagger instead axe)

Edited by styken, 13 June 2012 - 03:54 PM.


#27 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 04:00 PM

I actually love the death shroud mechanic. It's a second life basically(or a first), though I can agree it does feel boring when you're using the same 4 skills over and over again. A major change I think would help is that the death shroud skills change depending on your weapons, though they'd have to create several new skills, I think it'd be worth it.

I find the Mesmer's shatter class mechanic more of a joke than any other profession's primary mechanic. So, I really do hope they include major changes in shattering or illusions before the game is released.

#28 styken

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 04:04 PM

one thing i dont understand is why DS dont have 5 skills

#29 Majigor

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostLastDay, on 13 June 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I don't really like are how weak life steals are and Minions feel a bit iffy too, but Death Shroud is probably my favorite thing about the Necromancer.
Still, I do think that it might be nice to have other ways to spend Life Force, maybe on some version of "Blood is Power" or something related to conditions.

Steal is considered by many to be the worst Profession Mechanic due to being unreliable thanks to randomness, so I'm surprised you like it.

I don't like steal. I stated it needs work too, my reason for comparison was because thief and necro only have 1 F mechanic, yet even though thief is random it has far more variety and encourages use. Death shroud only gets used as a survival mechanism. Other classes have survival mechanisms without having to use up their core mechanic to achieve it.

A class mechanic should do more to define what the character is doing most of the time, not purely when you are low on health. People keep saying death shroud gets boring as well. My idea mixes up how you utilize your life force. Ie, are you going to spend it on buffing allies, enfeebling enemies, or conserve it for that near death comeback?

My idea adds more in the way of strategy to the class, fits with the actual description (they clearly stated life force can be used to heal allies, but it actually cannot!) and can easily be woven into traits to provide more diverse builds. death shroud alone is too much of a one-trick pony.


View Poststyken, on 13 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

the only thing Necro need is all traits work (lot of them still dont work) and improve life steal and dagger (i dont see any reason choose dagger instead axe)

I'm suggesting adding a lifesteal ability. That would solve the problem by not only improving lifesteal, but allowing traits to be changed to match. My idea is killing many birds with one stone. It addresses class identity, Consistant class mechanics (We should be doing more class specific stuff with our time. We currently do class specific stuff, ie death shroud, in the minority of our time when we are close to dying), and fits with the official description of necromancer that states life force is used to assist allies in the form of healing, and draining the soul of enemies (my idea suggests healing allies and life stealing from enemies). Traits can then be addressed to match the new abilities.

#30 Chowda

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 04:27 PM

In my opinion, Death shroud could be absorbing a little too much damage
However, I would like to point out something in the OP's second suggestion by Thayr

The F3's skill might be a little too OP. 7 seconds is a large window for people to do lots and lots of attacks. For example, a Warrior's axe auto attack combo would attack 6 times in a short window. Having a random condition applied per hit would be devastating since it lasts for so long. My suggestion would be having a short interval between each condition application, or to make it a % chance of a random condition being applied per hit.

To aequitaz's suggestion, I think it would most likely not be implemented. The reason is because of Elementalists. Necromancers might look like a ripoff if we have so many spells to dealth with at different "deathshroud forms" just like Attunements and I'm sure that Anet would not want another class to be a copy, and make its mechanic unique.

To the OP's first suggestion, I would say that it is quite good if Lifeforce is treated this way. It gives the user a choice to either tank with Death Shroud, or use different utilities with his Lifeforce.
Though a CD must be implemented with the extra skills (especially with Death Offering, even if you take half ( i dont think anyone will use it if it claims your full bar), it is slightly overpowered since Fear is a strong CC on its own.
Perhaps giving a cd of maybe 10seconds to other spells, and a 20-30 second to Death Offering?

For Life Offering, how about instead of just healing with your Lifeforce, you drain life from enemies to heal you or your team? That would be helping the class become more unique thanks to the stealing life option, which Necromancers lack of a little.

Edited by Chowda, 13 June 2012 - 04:46 PM.





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