Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * * * - 4 votes

Now THAT'S what i call a class mechanic!

necromancer necro class mechanic death shroud fear life force skills suggestion fix feedback

  • Please log in to reply
119 replies to this topic

#31 Olim

Olim

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 277 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 June 2012 - 04:49 PM

The following is taken off the official necromancers page.
"A necromancer is a practitioner of the dark arts who summons the dead, wields the power of lost souls, and literally sucks the lifeblood of the enemy. A necromancer feeds on life force, which he can use to cheat death or bring allies back from the brink.
A necromancer feeds on death and decay. Life force is the energy that a necromancer uses to extend his own life. Using specific skills, a necromancer builds up life force by attacking and killing enemies. Rather than going into a downed state when he runs out of health, a necromancer automatically activates the Death Shroud ability. A necromancer can continue fighting in the ghostly Death Shroud form until he either runs out of life force or he gets a kill, rallying back into his own corpse.
Necromancers have a unique set of special skills:
Wells—Wells are persistent spells that allow a necromancer to control the area around him. Created at the necromancer's location, wells affect targets within the skill's range. Well of Blood, for example, applies a regeneration boon to all allies within it. A necromancer can only have one well skill active at any time.
Minions—The necromancer summons undead minions to attack foes and do his bidding. Every minion-summoning spell has an associated secondary spell that appears after the minion has been summoned. This secondary spell destroys the minion while providing a powerful effect to the necromancer. For example, necromancers have a healing skill called Summon Blood Fiend that creates a minion that heals its master while it attacks. After the minion has been summoned, the Summon Blood Fiend skill is replaced by the skill Taste of Death, which allows a necromancer to destroy the minion to gain a larger amount of health.
Marks—Necromancers can also place marks--ground-targeted spells with a variety of potent effects. For instance, Mark of Blood damages enemies while placing a regeneration boon on nearby allies. Marks will trigger after a set period of time, but a necromancer can always trigger their marks on command by hitting the skill again.
Fear—Necromancers use a condition not available to any other profession: fear. A removable condition, fear makes an enemy flee directly away from a necromancer for a short period of time. For example, a necromancer can use Doom to instill fear in a single target."


If you read through the descriptions there's a number of things promised to necro's that are totally absent in the game- fun things that might bridge the needed gap to make the necro more in line with what it should be.

1. Firstly it says the necromancer can use life force to cheat death and in it;s current state yes this is so. But what is left out is that the description later says that a necro can activate/or automatically goes into death shroud form upon being downed. This is not the case right now, you can be downed and still have a full life force bar. The description says that upon running out of health in DS or getting a kill a necro will rally back into his own corpse. PErhaps after losing all hp in downed state DS could be activated? the necro seems just too easy to be defeated while downed when he is THE class who deals most with life and death and how to cheat it..

2.The description also says lifeforce can be used to bring allies back from the brink. This is not present at all in the game. It would be possible to add more depth to DS by allowing you to sacrifice it to restore allies hp and/or revive allies. I can see the potential abuse here as this may allow necro's to become a "healing class" but I think this may be avoided. Think of the mechanic like gaurdians who can sacrifice thier own buff to buff others.

3. Marks are not usefull enough as they are right now in the game. They should be buffed and enlarged. Also the skill doom mas moved specifically to DS limiting it's usefullness. I agree that the necro has too few ways to inflict fear. For a class specific status it is very weak as is since it is so limited to your build.

Death shroud need to have more utility so it's not so bland. Currently I pop into deathshroud not just as an oh sh** button but to kite out and outlast enemies, I use it for tanking and so it's not great that it can't be used heavilly for offense. Yes I know lifeblast can crit well and life siphon is good on multiple foes but it still feels like your just prolonging the fight and it gets rather boring.

Edited by Olim, 13 June 2012 - 04:58 PM.


#32 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 13 June 2012 - 05:04 PM

View PostMajigor, on 13 June 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

We currently do class specific stuff, ie death shroud, in the minority of our time when we are close to dying)...

sorry but this isnt true. in fact DS isnt use only for survival this isnt how you should play Necro. everytime you reach 100% Life Force you must enter on DS, even if you are Necro condition. with my build i was on DS lot and lot of time, because i could easy gain Life Force and everytime i have 100% LF i enter DS to do lot of damage.

View PostOlim, on 13 June 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

3. Marks are not usefull enough as they are right now in the game. They should be buffed and enlarged. Also the skill doom mas moved specifically to DS limiting it's usefullness. I agree that the necro has too few ways to inflict fear. For a class specific status it is very weak as is since it is so limited to your build.


again, not true. staff for me is essential for sPvP, best way to win Life Force and is the only AoE decent damage we have. is too the best tool when you are runing, so you can put marks on ground at same time you run.
i could against 3 guys kill one and than run away and if people follow me they couldnt get me because i could use chillbain and reaper mark.

Edited by styken, 13 June 2012 - 05:06 PM.


#33 Olim

Olim

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 277 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 June 2012 - 05:10 PM

View Poststyken, on 13 June 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

sorry but this isnt true. in fact DS isnt use only for survival this isnt how you should play Necro. everytime you reach 100% Life Force you must enter on DS, even if you are Necro condition. with my build i was on DS lot and lot of time, because i could easy gain Life Force and everytime i have 100% LF i enter DS to do lot of damage.



again, not true. staff for me is essential for sPvP, best way to win Life Force and is the only AoE decent damage we have. is too the best tool when you are runing, so you can put marks on ground at same time you run.
i could against 3 guys kill one and than run away and if people follow me they couldnt get me because i could use chillbain and reaper mark.

The staff is actually my favorite weapon and I have frequently done all that you have described with it. the problem is it is the only option outside of DS to inflict fear, and thats one of the reasons I always like to have a staff at lest for my offhand. Other builds wihtout the staff have only one option for fear, and if you look at the video on the necro page showing fear it seems to last for a good deal more than one second.

#34 Barcode

Barcode

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 13 June 2012 - 05:11 PM

View PostOlim, on 13 June 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

The following is taken off the official necromancers page.
"A necromancer is a practitioner of the dark arts who summons the dead, wields the power of lost souls, and literally sucks the lifeblood of the enemy. A necromancer feeds on life force, which he can use to cheat death or bring allies back from the brink.
A necromancer feeds on death and decay. Life force is the energy that a necromancer uses to extend his own life. Using specific skills, a necromancer builds up life force by attacking and killing enemies. Rather than going into a downed state when he runs out of health, a necromancer automatically activates the Death Shroud ability. A necromancer can continue fighting in the ghostly Death Shroud form until he either runs out of life force or he gets a kill, rallying back into his own corpse.
Necromancers have a unique set of special skills:
Wells—Wells are persistent spells that allow a necromancer to control the area around him. Created at the necromancer's location, wells affect targets within the skill's range. Well of Blood, for example, applies a regeneration boon to all allies within it. A necromancer can only have one well skill active at any time.
Minions—The necromancer summons undead minions to attack foes and do his bidding. Every minion-summoning spell has an associated secondary spell that appears after the minion has been summoned. This secondary spell destroys the minion while providing a powerful effect to the necromancer. For example, necromancers have a healing skill called Summon Blood Fiend that creates a minion that heals its master while it attacks. After the minion has been summoned, the Summon Blood Fiend skill is replaced by the skill Taste of Death, which allows a necromancer to destroy the minion to gain a larger amount of health.
Marks—Necromancers can also place marks--ground-targeted spells with a variety of potent effects. For instance, Mark of Blood damages enemies while placing a regeneration boon on nearby allies. Marks will trigger after a set period of time, but a necromancer can always trigger their marks on command by hitting the skill again.
Fear—Necromancers use a condition not available to any other profession: fear. A removable condition, fear makes an enemy flee directly away from a necromancer for a short period of time. For example, a necromancer can use Doom to instill fear in a single target."


If you read through the descriptions there's a number of things promised to necro's that are totally absent in the game- fun things that might bridge the needed gap to make the necro more in line with what it should be.

1. Firstly it says the necromancer can use life force to cheat death and in it;s current state yes this is so. But what is left out is that the description later says that a necro can activate/or automatically goes into death shroud form upon being downed. This is not the case right now, you can be downed and still have a full life force bar. The description says that upon running out of health in DS or getting a kill a necro will rally back into his own corpse. PErhaps after losing all hp in downed state DS could be activated? the necro seems just too easy to be defeated while downed when he is THE class who deals most with life and death and how to cheat it..

2.The description also says lifeforce can be used to bring allies back from the brink. This is not present at all in the game. It would be possible to add more depth to DS by allowing you to sacrifice it to restore allies hp and/or revive allies. I can see the potential abuse here as this may allow necro's to become a "healing class" but I think this may be avoided. Think of the mechanic like gaurdians who can sacrifice thier own buff to buff others.

3. Marks are not usefull enough as they are right now in the game. They should be buffed and enlarged. Also the skill doom mas moved specifically to DS limiting it's usefullness. I agree that the necro has too few ways to inflict fear. For a class specific status it is very weak as is since it is so limited to your build.

Death shroud need to have more utility so it's not so bland. Currently I pop into deathshroud not just as an oh sh** button but to kite out and outlast enemies, I use it for tanking and so it's not great that it can't be used heavilly for offense. Yes I know lifeblast can crit well and life siphon is good on multiple foes but it still feels like your just prolonging the fight and it gets rather boring.

I am only going to refute your first point.

If you reread what the description actually says, it does NOT say that a Necromancer can activate DS at will. The descriptions on the website are old and outdated. From what I can gather, a Necromancer USED to ONLY enter Death Shroud instead of getting downed. I feel that what Necro's have currently is 10x better than a gimmicky downed state.

Therefore, your Death Shroud used to be an overpowered downed state, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you can clearly see why ArenaNet has modified it into it's current form in order to better preserve balance. The buffs you have requested for the current Death Shroud based on the description of an old model should be counted as irrelevant, and would completely make Necromancers IMBA.

Besides, let's be honest here... If you can't notice that you are taking a spike of damage, and can't press your F1 ability to mitigate... well, you catch my drift.

#35 Olim

Olim

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 277 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 June 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostBarcode, on 13 June 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

I am only going to refute your first point.

If you reread what the description actually says, it does NOT say that a Necromancer can activate DS at will. The descriptions on the website are old and outdated. From what I can gather, a Necromancer USED to ONLY enter Death Shroud instead of getting downed. I feel that what Necro's have currently is 10x better than a gimmicky downed state.

Therefore, your Death Shroud used to be an overpowered downed state, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you can clearly see why ArenaNet has modified it into it's current form in order to better preserve balance. The buffs you have requested for the current Death Shroud based on the description of an old model should be counted as irrelevant, and would completely make Necromancers IMBA.

Besides, let's be honest here... If you can't notice that you are taking a spike of damage, and can't press your F1 ability to mitigate... well, you catch my drift.

Ok I see your point. I guess even though the post is outdated the language also leaves a bit of room for interpretation that would explain the current state of things.

#36 razor39999

razor39999

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2606 posts
  • Location:/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
  • Profession:Ranger
  • Guild Tag:[Arrr]
  • Server:Aurora Glade

Posted 13 June 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostDraehl, on 13 June 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

/snip

Skills being bland is more of a subjective opinion, but I'll give you that one. In any case, the real importance of DS is the extra life bar and the survivability it gives the necro, which is working very much as intended. Thanks to DS the necro plays and feels like a real harass specialist, which was the legacy of the necromancer from GW1, and probably the archetype they wanted to capture.

#37 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:15 PM

View Postrazor39999, on 13 June 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Skills being bland is more of a subjective opinion, but I'll give you that one. In any case, the real importance of DS is the extra life bar and the survivability it gives the necro, which is working very much as intended. Thanks to DS the necro plays and feels like a real harass specialist, which was the legacy of the necromancer from GW1, and probably the archetype they wanted to capture.

in my build DS was  very important to increase my damage. 100% LF enter DS, out when hit 50-60% LF. use axe/staff or BP to gain LF. enter again DS  and so on.   very hard die since i can gain LF very quick and use heal before enter DS.
using DS as a run escape was very fun since when we use all of our LF the DS dont have any cooldown.

#38 razor39999

razor39999

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2606 posts
  • Location:/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
  • Profession:Ranger
  • Guild Tag:[Arrr]
  • Server:Aurora Glade

Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:21 PM

To put it another way - without monks shouldering the lions' share of the team's passive defense, having a harass type class requires built-in defense for that class to live long to actually do its job. DS is pretty much spot on for that purpose.

#39 Crosier

Crosier

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 395 posts
  • Server:Ruins of Surmia

Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:40 PM

It's probably already been said, but you only use DS to survive when on low health? I don't. It's a great tool to deal damage and CC a bit.

#40 Thyar

Thyar

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1812 posts

Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:42 PM

I made a mistake in what I suggested earlier in the thread.
Some people think I was suggesting removing Death Shroud altogether.

I was not.
So let me revise it here:


F1 – Death Shroud with its usual skills.

F2 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each of the Necro's weapon attacks to steal health (per attack) from an enemy for 6 seconds. This would stack with other life stealing skills, effects from sigils, etc...

F3 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each of the Necro's weapon attacks to provide health (per attack) for self and nearby (within 600 feet) allies - including pets, minions, and illusions - for 6 seconds.

F4 - sacrifices Life Force to inflict a random condition on an enemy for each attack that the Necro receives (infliction period lasts for 6 seconds)


I would make the cost for F2 to F4 abilities a flat 33% cost of one's total LifeForce bar, to help keep this balanced.

Unless I am mistaken here, all Necros of whatever playstyle and weapon sets would receive some benefit from at least two of those three.

I reduced the duration time for F2 to F4 from 7 seconds to 6 seconds, which at a 1.5 average basic attack from an enemy would mean they trigger (in optimal situations) for about 4 attacks.

Edited by Thyar, 13 June 2012 - 09:46 PM.


#41 Roe

Roe

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 13 June 2012 - 10:20 PM

I'm certainly no expert but I really think DS is so far ahead of most class mechanics it's ridiculous. It's not perfect but IMO it's the best mechanic in the game, besides maybe Engineers and arguably Eles, but I'm not crazy about either of those.

#42 Majigor

Majigor

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:20 AM

View Poststyken, on 13 June 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

sorry but this isnt true. in fact DS isnt use only for survival this isnt how you should play Necro. everytime you reach 100% Life Force you must enter on DS, even if you are Necro condition. with my build i was on DS lot and lot of time, because i could easy gain Life Force and everytime i have 100% LF i enter DS to do lot of damage.



again, not true. staff for me is essential for sPvP, best way to win Life Force and is the only AoE decent damage we have. is too the best tool when you are runing, so you can put marks on ground at same time you run.
i could against 3 guys kill one and than run away and if people follow me they couldnt get me because i could use chillbain and reaper mark.

You basically just said two things:

1. Everyone should use your build because it is the 'correct' way to play. This is wrong. 80 Levels of rinsing and repeating this one build would not only get boring, but if this was the 'right' way to play, then the class needs work. These games always allow for multiple builds, yours is just one of them. They don't all necessarily have to focus purely on entering death shroud every  minute.

2. You're build needs nerfing. If you can consistently jump in 3v1, kill a guy and get out alive, then there are clearly balance issues that need resolving.

To all others. I'm not trying to suggest anything radically game breaking, and I'm, not saying I don't LIKE death shroud, I'm just saying necro not only needs more variety, but also more of an identity. I hate to keep using this term, but right now it is a one-trick pony. With Death Shroud being so consistetly samey, and it either being used as non-stop spam or last-minute survival, and nothing else that really stands out gameplay wise for the class, it just gets flat out boring fast. I'm just suggesting a small change which fits the class more with it's description, and allows more tactical gameplay where we choose whether to sacrifice or save life-force from moment to moment. I just feel it should be more of a sacred resource like initiative, but function in a different way. My suggestion solves that.

View PostThyar, on 13 June 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

I made a mistake in what I suggested earlier in the thread.
Some people think I was suggesting removing Death Shroud altogether.

I was not.
So let me revise it here:


F1 – Death Shroud with its usual skills.

F2 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each of the Necro's weapon attacks to steal health (per attack) from an enemy for 6 seconds. This would stack with other life stealing skills, effects from sigils, etc...

F3 - sacrifices Life Force to enable each of the Necro's weapon attacks to provide health (per attack) for self and nearby (within 600 feet) allies - including pets, minions, and illusions - for 6 seconds.

F4 - sacrifices Life Force to inflict a random condition on an enemy for each attack that the Necro receives (infliction period lasts for 6 seconds)


I would make the cost for F2 to F4 abilities a flat 33% cost of one's total LifeForce bar, to help keep this balanced.

Unless I am mistaken here, all Necros of whatever playstyle and weapon sets would receive some benefit from at least two of those three.

I reduced the duration time for F2 to F4 from 7 seconds to 6 seconds, which at a 1.5 average basic attack from an enemy would mean they trigger (in optimal situations) for about 4 attacks.

I updated the OP with this edited version :)

#43 Sifflion

Sifflion

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 739 posts
  • Location:Argentina
  • Guild Tag:[BSG]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 14 June 2012 - 09:09 AM

View PostMajigor, on 14 June 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

You basically just said two things:

1. Everyone should use your build because it is the 'correct' way to play. This is wrong. 80 Levels of rinsing and repeating this one build would not only get boring, but if this was the 'right' way to play, then the class needs work. These games always allow for multiple builds, yours is just one of them. They don't all necessarily have to focus purely on entering death shroud every  minute.

2. You're build needs nerfing. If you can consistently jump in 3v1, kill a guy and get out alive, then there are clearly balance issues that need resolving.

To all others. I'm not trying to suggest anything radically game breaking, and I'm, not saying I don't LIKE death shroud, I'm just saying necro not only needs more variety, but also more of an identity. I hate to keep using this term, but right now it is a one-trick pony. With Death Shroud being so consistetly samey, and it either being used as non-stop spam or last-minute survival, and nothing else that really stands out gameplay wise for the class, it just gets flat out boring fast. I'm just suggesting a small change which fits the class more with it's description, and allows more tactical gameplay where we choose whether to sacrifice or save life-force from moment to moment. I just feel it should be more of a sacred resource like initiative, but function in a different way. My suggestion solves that.



I updated the OP with this edited version :)

Opinions are opinions, not everyone will agree with you. And DS is already too complex in PvP, not even your enemies knows how to kill you or how to manage it, thats why you see lots of complains about Necros being OP.
You need to administrate both life bars to get the maximun survivality with any build, and you also need to get the maximun damage output out of it, merge both things and you have one of the best, if not the best, mechanic of the game. The necromancer plays totally different from the other classes on sPvP, hes really the master of death, because even with low red HP hes really hard to kill and dangerous if you dont know what are you doing. His red bar is almost useless compared to his green bar.

The thing is, you decide to improve or not this mechanic through traits, and that will make the difference between a good build and a bad one. Is not about needing a specific one, is just that some builds will always be better than others. The necros doesnt have many weapons to completely sacrifice their core mechanic and still be strong, but the difference between necros mechanic and for example Eles one, is that you can improve it with any trait line.

About PvE, its bland all together. Its seriously a shame because the class has lots of potential, but, it rellies too much on the desitions that the enemy makes, main reason of why its too complex for PvP, but with the stupid AI is just mindlessly spam.

#44 Majigor

Majigor

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

View PostSifflion, on 14 June 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Opinions are opinions, not everyone will agree with you. And DS is already too complex in PvP, not even your enemies knows how to kill you or how to manage it, thats why you see lots of complains about Necros being OP.
You need to administrate both life bars to get the maximun survivality with any build, and you also need to get the maximun damage output out of it, merge both things and you have one of the best, if not the best, mechanic of the game. The necromancer plays totally different from the other classes on sPvP, hes really the master of death, because even with low red HP hes really hard to kill and dangerous if you dont know what are you doing. His red bar is almost useless compared to his green bar.

The thing is, you decide to improve or not this mechanic through traits, and that will make the difference between a good build and a bad one. Is not about needing a specific one, is just that some builds will always be better than others. The necros doesnt have many weapons to completely sacrifice their core mechanic and still be strong, but the difference between necros mechanic and for example Eles one, is that you can improve it with any trait line.

About PvE, its bland all together. Its seriously a shame because the class has lots of potential, but, it rellies too much on the desitions that the enemy makes, main reason of why its too complex for PvP, but with the stupid AI is just mindlessly spam.

I completely agree that it's working in PvP. In fact, I think it's working a little TOO well. OVERALL however (PvE and PvP combined) it's dull and repetitive.

I think I need to clarify something about this thread. It is not a 'let's knock death shroud' or 'death shroud sucks' thread. The purpose of this Thread is to suggest that Necromancer overall needs a bit more class identity. I feel that Life force could have been a much better mechanic, but all it is is a fancy cooldown for death shroud. I don't want to lose or replace death shroud, I simply want to add diversity to the class to utilize it's unique resource, and in doing so will give the class something unique to accomplish OTHER than death shroud. All other classes have other mechanics aside from their 'main' ones. Necro apparently has life-stealing and fearing as a core mechanic, but this really does not shine through. I am proposing a way to utilize life force as the class was described to do, and to give it more identity when not using death shroud. As an example, people notice the warrior's unique style even when they aren't using their burst skills. People notice the thief's unique style even when he isn't stealing. they notice the Mesmer's identity even when they aren't shattering their illusions. What do they notice about the necromancer that the other classes aren't already doing?

#45 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:23 PM

View PostMajigor, on 14 June 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

You basically just said two things:

1. Everyone should use your build because it is the 'correct' way to play. This is wrong. 80 Levels of rinsing and repeating this one build would not only get boring, but if this was the 'right' way to play, then the class needs work. These games always allow for multiple builds, yours is just one of them. They don't all necessarily have to focus purely on entering death shroud every  minute.



?? i never say that. what i say is DS isnt only a escape mechanism, in fact is far from that and this is true for any Necro build

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 12:24 PM.


#46 Majigor

Majigor

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:35 PM

View Poststyken, on 14 June 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

?? i never say that. what i say is DS isnt only a escape mechanism, in fact is far from that and this is true for any Necro build

Ok I acknowledge that, but let's take mesmer as an example (albeit Anet have openly said it needs more work than other classes right now). Some mesmer builds work by shattering illusions frequently. Some by hiding behind a wall of phantasms. others work with a balance of the two. Then factor in the many diverse skills they have that allow for their unique conditions to be applied in different ways and voila, a tightly woven class identity with diverse playstyles.

Life force is currently just a glorified cooldown for death shroud, and builds either focus on using it a lot, or very little. I feel by adding other class specific skills that utilize life force, therefore making it a unique resource akin to initiative, yet functioning differently, in the way it is described to do, we can add more diverse builds as well as weaving the class identity more tightly throughout the overall experience of playing that class.

#47 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:56 PM

View PostMajigor, on 14 June 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Ok I acknowledge that, but let's take mesmer as an example (albeit Anet have openly said it needs more work than other classes right now). Some mesmer builds work by shattering illusions frequently. Some by hiding behind a wall of phantasms. others work with a balance of the two. Then factor in the many diverse skills they have that allow for their unique conditions to be applied in different ways and voila, a tightly woven class identity with diverse playstyles.

Life force is currently just a glorified cooldown for death shroud, and builds either focus on using it a lot, or very little. I feel by adding other class specific skills that utilize life force, therefore making it a unique resource akin to initiative, yet functioning differently, in the way it is described to do, we can add more diverse builds as well as weaving the class identity more tightly throughout the overall experience of playing that class.

i understand what you are saying, the only use of Life Force is to enter DS, we dont have more options how to use Life Force.
i like the system as it is for sPvP but for PvE i think with time will be boring

#48 Majigor

Majigor

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 01:14 PM

View Poststyken, on 14 June 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

i understand what you are saying, the only use of Life Force is to enter DS, we dont have more options how to use Life Force.
i like the system as it is for sPvP but for PvE i think with time will be boring

That's exactly it. I want to give it a bit more flare to drive us to play those 80 levels, and also to make us more diverse in multiple situations. Also, just to make the class feel more unique because after playing them all this one felt like it lacked identity.

#49 manveruppd

manveruppd

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:01 PM

I agree with the suggestions in here not necessarilly exactly as they are, but something to give us more choice. At the moment Death Shroud is kinda meh. Not underpowered by any means (in fact when traited it becomes almost as good as Lich Form, except you can stay in it for nearly half the time!), but just kinda boring. Would much prefer something that just modified your existing skills, like some of the suggestions made. Steal life whenever you're hit, or inflict conditions to enemies around you, that kind of thing. Maybe even a mode that makes you sacrifice health whenever you cast a skill in exchange for a power/healing boost, or in exchange for reduced cooldowns? (I miss the GW1 aspect of the necromancer using their health bar as a battery, used to have a lot of fun flirting with death as a Dark Bomber in arenas!;)) They could be "toggle modes" like DS currently is (keep going until they run down your life force, maybe with a short cooldown like an elementalist's attunements so you can't keep toggling between modes), or just last for a certain amount of time and eat up a pre-set chunk of your life bar, I don't care. They can even be less powerful than DS currently is for all I care, as long as we have some choice so things are kept interesting.

#50 Majigor

Majigor

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:36 PM

View Postmanveruppd, on 14 June 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

I agree with the suggestions in here not necessarilly exactly as they are, but something to give us more choice. At the moment Death Shroud is kinda meh. Not underpowered by any means (in fact when traited it becomes almost as good as Lich Form, except you can stay in it for nearly half the time!), but just kinda boring. Would much prefer something that just modified your existing skills, like some of the suggestions made. Steal life whenever you're hit, or inflict conditions to enemies around you, that kind of thing. Maybe even a mode that makes you sacrifice health whenever you cast a skill in exchange for a power/healing boost, or in exchange for reduced cooldowns? (I miss the GW1 aspect of the necromancer using their health bar as a battery, used to have a lot of fun flirting with death as a Dark Bomber in arenas! ;)) They could be "toggle modes" like DS currently is (keep going until they run down your life force, maybe with a short cooldown like an elementalist's attunements so you can't keep toggling between modes), or just last for a certain amount of time and eat up a pre-set chunk of your life bar, I don't care. They can even be less powerful than DS currently is for all I care, as long as we have some choice so things are kept interesting.

This was exactly my thinking. I don't think we should sacrifice health in this game because I think life force was intended as our sacrifice mechanic. I just don't think it was implemented to it's full potential, or even in the way they seemed to suggest it would be.

Also my idea was to make the new skills toggle ones that slowly chip away at the life force anyway.

#51 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:47 PM

or we could have 4 DS and each one with 5 diferent skills (now we only have 4 skills...). keep it simple using the exat mechanic we already have and give more options to us.

if 4 DS are too much OP i will be happy with 2 DS with 10 diferent skills. as i say before im very happy with DS mechanic but more options give us more diversity.
now we do a build around something and we dont change much our style during combat because we dont have many options to do that IMO

something like this:
F1 -> DS with main power skills ( + LF more damage)
F2 -> DS with main condition skills (+ LF more condition duration)
F3 -> DS with main support skills ( + LF more heals + boon duration)
F4 -> summon a pet ( + LF more damage like DS work now but intead we enter DS we summon a pet)

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 02:56 PM.


#52 Leeto

Leeto

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 591 posts
  • Location:Lemarchand's box
  • Guild Tag:[BONE]
  • Server:Seafarer’s Rest

Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:56 PM

Deathshroud is not only fine, its like best/most interesting class feature there is. You can use it for burst, for surviving, for just mitigating 1 heavy spell, every trait tree gives something to DS, so its gives even more options like incrase dmg, incrase crit chance, incrase movement speed and so on.
No other class feature gives so much options, if you really cant think out any other use for DS than to jump into it when close to dying then thats your problem.
People are asking for 4 different shrouds when cant even use 1 effectively. :huh:

Edited by Leeto, 14 June 2012 - 02:57 PM.


#53 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:07 PM

View PostLeeto, on 14 June 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Deathshroud is not only fine, its like best/most interesting class feature there is. You can use it for burst, for surviving, for just mitigating 1 heavy spell, every trait tree gives something to DS, so its gives even more options like incrase dmg, incrase crit chance, incrase movement speed and so on.
No other class feature gives so much options, if you really cant think out any other use for DS than to jump into it when close to dying then thats your problem.
People are asking for 4 different shrouds when cant even use 1 effectively. :huh:

hmmm...did you read my previous posts??? are you saying im not using DS effectively? me like most of guys here arent saying DS is weak (in fact is very good) but is a bit boring, in sPvP is ok but on PvE i bet i will get boring doing 80 lvl the same thing.

spam LF enter DS spam mainly skill1, leave DS when reach 50-60%, spam LF with dagger/axe and marks enter DS and so on. this will get boring with time.

if you are a condition Necro the mechanic is almost the same for DS...

btw, anyone create a post with this suggestions on official forum?

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#54 Thyar

Thyar

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1812 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:09 PM

I don't really want more Death Shrouds.

But I can see having other ways to use Life Force - outside of Death Shroud, and not tied specifically to any particular weapon, so that it can benefit all Necros, regardless of playstyle choice.

What keeps such a set up from being OP directly depends upon making such bonus abilities cost some significant Life Force (33% of the total LF bar) - so that no one can just spam 'em all then pop into DS, and thus rule eternal, ya know?  Each Necro would have a choice: do I spend it on the bonus LF skills to give a little OOMPH! to my playstyle here and there as tactically appropriate?  Or do I save up the LF to pop into DS and deal with the foes that way?

#55 Majigor

Majigor

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:10 PM

View PostLeeto, on 14 June 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Deathshroud is not only fine, its like best/most interesting class feature there is. You can use it for burst, for surviving, for just mitigating 1 heavy spell, every trait tree gives something to DS, so its gives even more options like incrase dmg, incrase crit chance, incrase movement speed and so on.
No other class feature gives so much options, if you really cant think out any other use for DS than to jump into it when close to dying then thats your problem.
People are asking for 4 different shrouds when cant even use 1 effectively. :huh:

I am going to go back and properly re-edit my original post because people clearly aren't reading it properly. If you look closer I have stated that my problem isn't with death shroud per se (although I find that death shroud gets boring), it is with life-force, and the overall class lacking enough mechanics to give it a proper identity. My suggestion solves this.

View Poststyken, on 14 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

hmmm...did you read my previous posts??? are you saying im not using DS effectively? me like most of guys here arent saying DS is weak (in fact is very good) but is a bit boring, in sPvP is ok but on PvE i bet i will get boring doing 80 lvl the same thing.

spam LF enter DS spam mainly skill1, leave DS when reach 50-60%, spam LF with dagger/axe and marks enter DS and so on. this will get boring with time.

if you are a condition Necro the mechanic is almost the same for DS...

btw, anyone create a post with this suggestions on official forum?

I only thought of it after they closed the forums unfortunately, but i'm trying to get their attention through twitter and facebook lol.

#56 styken

styken

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 657 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:19 PM

View PostThyar, on 14 June 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I don't really want more Death Shrouds.

But I can see having other ways to use Life Force - outside of Death Shroud, and not tied specifically to any particular weapon, so that it can benefit all Necros, regardless of playstyle choice.

What keeps such a set up from being OP directly depends upon making such bonus abilities cost some significant Life Force (33% of the total LF bar) - so that no one can just spam 'em all then pop into DS, and thus rule eternal, ya know?  Each Necro would have a choice: do I spend it on the bonus LF skills to give a little OOMPH! to my playstyle here and there as tactically appropriate?  Or do I save up the LF to pop into DS and deal with the foes that way?

anything that give more options to Necros is great for me xD
change DS skills depend on weapons we have will be great too, as someone already say here (at leats i remember read this somewhere xD)

#57 Thyar

Thyar

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1812 posts

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:20 PM

styken - now wait! - that is indeed interesting.... I think I might also see what you mean here.

Quote

something like this:
F1 -> DS with main power skills ( + LF more damage)
F2 -> DS with main condition skills (+ LF more condition duration)
F3 -> DS with main support skills ( + LF more heals + boon duration)
F4 -> summon a pet ( + LF more damage like DS work now but intead we enter DS we summon a pet)

So you're not really talking about different DS literally, but rather adjusting the skills within DS depending upon the F option chosen, correct?

I can get that - because it was sorta where I started back a bit when I jumped into this thread.  It is a different model than using LF for bonuses outside of Death Shroud.  But hoenstly, I can see either model being used to refine Necros playstyles all the way around a bit more.  

My only concern is that having to come up with separate sets of skills for each DS "mode" is a bit too much to ask the Devs to tackle this late in the process, ya know?  Then again, hell, even with what I was suggesting it might be too late for the coding required.

At any rate, I'm going to think more about what you suggested here.
Thanks.

Edited by Thyar, 14 June 2012 - 03:21 PM.


#58 Leeto

Leeto

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 591 posts
  • Location:Lemarchand's box
  • Guild Tag:[BONE]
  • Server:Seafarer’s Rest

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:20 PM

View Poststyken, on 14 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

hmmm...did you read my previous posts??? are you saying im not using DS effectively? me like most of guys here arent saying DS is weak (in fact is very good) but is a bit boring, in sPvP is ok but on PvE i bet i will get boring doing 80 lvl the same thing.

spam LF enter DS spam mainly skill1, leave DS when reach 50-60%, spam LF with dagger/axe and marks enter DS and so on. this will get boring with time.

if you are a condition Necro the mechanic is almost the same for DS...

btw, anyone create a post with this suggestions on official forum?
No i didnt read them. But obviously its not boring in sPVP cause it gives so much to fight (or at least less boring then any other class mechanic). Im not PVEr so i dont understand what makes all the DS things unusable in PVE and lets you only spam Life Blast.

#59 Sivorick

Sivorick

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 30 posts
  • Guild Tag:[TG]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:25 PM

I really like the Death Shroud mechanic. I actually like the current lay out for the skills and their current duration/cool down. If you play a DS build it's amazing and if you don't you have a great "oh sh*t" button. I would like to see a rework of the dagger and focusing on conditions become a bit more viable. Minions need some love as well, but overall I'm quite happy with the Necromancer.

#60 kilger

kilger

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 551 posts
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 14 June 2012 - 03:26 PM

I'm always hitting DS when it gets to 100% lifeforce, but not before because I do have a plethora of skills I cant use in DS too.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users