119 replies to this topic

[Tannet]

I would like to see changes for the DS itself. I like the class mechanic and see no point changeing it .

Life Blast – Blast a foe with accumulated life force, dealing more damage the more life force you have.

Dark Path - Send out a claw. If this attack hits an enemy, you teleport to that foe and Chill nearby enemies.
Chill lasts longer/area is bigger the more life force you have.
(At 100 life force your chill lasts 100% longer/ the area is increased by 33%/50%)
Initiating a fight would be more effective at a high life force cap.

Doom - Make your foe flee in fear.
Fear lasts longer the more life force you have.
(At 100 life force fear lasts 100% longer.)
You could fear up to 2 seconds if you enter DS and instantly fear.

Life Transfer - Damage nearby foes and steal their life force.
Your stats increase the more life force you have while channeling.
(At 100 life force your stats are increased by 25%)
If you run on high conditiondamage you will have a higher conditionduration/ get more conditiondamage.
If you run pure power your Power is boosted.
If you run support your heal from "Transfusion" is increased.
If you go tanky your toughness is increased.
Maybe i should add increases per tick... Not sure about Life Transfer boost anyway...

Edited by Tannet, 14 June 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[styken]

Thyar, on 14 June 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

styken - now wait! - that is indeed interesting.... I think I might also see what you mean here.



So you're not really talking about different DS literally, but rather adjusting the skills within DS depending upon the F option chosen, correct?

I can get that - because it was sorta where I started back a bit when I jumped into this thread.  It is a different model than using LF for bonuses outside of Death Shroud.  But hoenstly, I can see either model being used to refine Necros playstyles all the way around a bit more.  

My only concern is that having to come up with separate sets of skills for each DS "mode" is a bit too much to ask the Devs to tackle this late in the process, ya know?  Then again, hell, even with what I was suggesting it might be too late for the coding required.

At any rate, I'm going to think more about what you suggested here.
Thanks.

as i say before anything give us more options is fine for me. if is others DS, if is more diferent use for LF, if is change skills of DS depend on weapons we have, anything is great for me.

i dont know what is more easy to arenanet implement but change DS skills depend on our weapons i think is the option i would like most but anything will be good for me xD

one thing i dont like on Necro is the fact for combos we suck a bit, combo finishers we have almost none. sometimes i just want to change for element but i like the dark style of Necro.
i was expecting our wells will be much better than we have, i only like well blood + well darknees + well power (and our well are almost dark fields, could have a bit more diversity) and for use well in a good way we need to invest in 2 specific traits ( well groung target + 20% less recharge time wells)

kilger, on 14 June 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

I'm always hitting DS when it gets to 100% lifeforce, but not before because I do have a plethora of skills I cant use in DS too.

yap, that is the base of DS mechanic for any Necro build, but dont you think that is a bit boring?

[Majigor]

Thyar, on 14 June 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

styken - now wait! - that is indeed interesting.... I think I might also see what you mean here.



So you're not really talking about different DS literally, but rather adjusting the skills within DS depending upon the F option chosen, correct?

I can get that - because it was sorta where I started back a bit when I jumped into this thread.  It is a different model than using LF for bonuses outside of Death Shroud.  But hoenstly, I can see either model being used to refine Necros playstyles all the way around a bit more.  

My only concern is that having to come up with separate sets of skills for each DS "mode" is a bit too much to ask the Devs to tackle this late in the process, ya know?  Then again, hell, even with what I was suggesting it might be too late for the coding required.

At any rate, I'm going to think more about what you suggested here.
Thanks.

The problem with this approach is that it's a bit too similar to elementalists changing their element. I like it, but I felt giving more options on how to spend life force, with death shroud being the main and others being more short term, instant benefits, would make the class more tactical because you have to consider short or long term benefits regarding how you spend your life force.

[kilger]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

yap, that is the base of DS mechanic for any Necro build, but dont you think that is a bit boring?

Honestly mostly ran an elementalist last BWE.  They have so much raw utility at their finger tips its day and night compared to necro.  I cant say if its more or less boring since all skills are a variety of damage or healing pretty much, I'd really say its more powerful but at the same time more straight forward and perhaps boring over time.  I'd say the necro has more interesting dynamics, but its a lot more difficult to really tap into what the class can do.

[Majigor]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

as i say before anything give us more options is fine for me. if is others DS, if is more diferent use for LF, if is change skills of DS depend on weapons we have, anything is great for me.

i dont know what is more easy to arenanet implement but change DS skills depend on our weapons i think is the option i would like most but anything will be good for me xD

one thing i dont like on Necro is the fact for combos we suck a bit, combo finishers we have almost none. sometimes i just want to change for element but i like the dark style of Necro.
i was expecting our wells will be much better than we have, i only like well blood + well darknees + well power (and our well are almost dark fields, could have a bit more diversity) and for use well in a good way we need to invest in 2 specific traits ( well groung target + 20% less recharge time wells)



yap, that is the base of DS mechanic for any Necro build, but dont you think that is a bit boring?

Having DS react to which weapon you have again feels bit elementalist-like, and also risks trapping people in to certain weapons because they only the the DS you get with one of them. Having something that is available regardless of weapon solves this.

kilger, on 14 June 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Honestly mostly ran an elementalist last BWE.  They have so much raw utility at their finger tips its day and night compared to necro.  I cant say if its more or less boring since all skills are a variety of damage or healing pretty much, I'd really say its more powerful but at the same time more straight forward and perhaps boring over time.  I'd say the necro has more interesting dynamics, but its a lot more difficult to really tap into what the class can do.

That's exactly the purpose of this thread.

I'll be honest I typed it at 2am, and was extremely tired so the original post is not coherent. I'll go back and edit at some point because I'm noticing that once people understand what I'm getting at more they are coming round to the ideas.

Tannet, on 14 June 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

I would like to see changes for the DS itself. I like the class mechanic and see no point changeing it .

Life Blast – Blast a foe with accumulated life force, dealing more damage the more life force you have.

Dark Path - Send out a claw. If this attack hits an enemy, you teleport to that foe and Chill nearby enemies.
Chill lasts longer/area is bigger the more life force you have.
(At 100 life force your chill lasts 100% longer/ the area is increased by 33%/50%)
Initiating a fight would be more effective at a high life force cap.

Doom - Make your foe flee in fear.
Fear lasts longer the more life force you have.
(At 100 life force fear lasts 100% longer.)
You could fear up to 2 seconds if you enter DS and instantly fear.

Life Transfer - Damage nearby foes and steal their life force.
Your stats increase the more life force you have while channeling.
(At 100 life force your stats are increased by 25%)
If you run on high conditiondamage you will have a higher conditionduration/ get more conditiondamage.
If you run pure power your Power is boosted.
If you run support your heal from "Transfusion" is increased.
If you go tanky your toughness is increased.
Maybe i should add increases per tick... Not sure about Life Transfer boost anyway...

I don't want to change DS, because my problem with it is that alone it gets boring. What I want to do is utilize life force specifically a lot more because currently it acts as a glorified cooldown for death shroud.

[manveruppd]

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Deathshroud is not only fine, its like best/most interesting class feature there is. You can use it for burst, for surviving, for just mitigating 1 heavy spell, every trait tree gives something to DS, so its gives even more options like incrase dmg, incrase crit chance, incrase movement speed and so on.
No other class feature gives so much options, if you really cant think out any other use for DS than to jump into it when close to dying then thats your problem.
People are asking for 4 different shrouds when cant even use 1 effectively.

Nobody said it was weak dude, it's pretty powerful, and yes, you do have options in how to use but, but those options usually just come down on which traits you picked before a match. What we're asking is different ways  you can choose to use your LF during the game rather than just popping DS.
My main gripe with it tbh is simply that you only get 4 skills and 3 of them have massive cooldowns, so usually you're either using it as a health-battery while running away or to spam #1 for massive damage. And if you've traited all the pbaoe effects of entering/leaving DS then you're just pressing F1 and then F1 again to proc the trait effects, you're not actually using it much at all!
What I'd like to see is something like the Elementalist has: you push a Function key and our playstyle changes mid-match. Not entirely depending on what traits you picked in advance. I want decisions to make while fighting, not beforehand, when picking a build. Knowing that you have to push F1 and then F1 again to trigger an area heal isn't interesting.

[Leeto]

manveruppd, on 14 June 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Nobody said it was weak dude, it's pretty powerful, and yes, you do have options in how to use but, but those options usually just come down on which traits you picked before a match. What we're asking is different ways  you can choose to use your LF during the game rather than just popping DS.
My main gripe with it tbh is simply that you only get 4 skills and 3 of them have massive cooldowns, so usually you're either using it as a health-battery while running away or to spam #1 for massive damage. And if you've traited all the pbaoe effects of entering/leaving DS then you're just pressing F1 and then F1 again to proc the trait effects, you're not actually using it much at all!
What I'd like to see is something like the Elementalist has: you push a Function key and our playstyle changes mid-match. Not entirely depending on what traits you picked in advance. I want decisions to make while fighting, not beforehand, when picking a build. Knowing that you have to push F1 and then F1 again to trigger an area heal isn't interesting.

Well then its just matter of opinion cause for me DS is fun and i dont mind jumping in DS just for 1 sec either.   I can see ways how to make it even more fun, but then every class mechanic should be redesigned cause atm DS is more fun+usefull then every others class mechanic. We might discuss that engineers and elementalist ones are more interesting, but in reality its just 4 lesser utility skills that depend on utility skills chosen and ability to have 4 different weapons, but with determined role for everyone of them.

Edited by Leeto, 14 June 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Majigor]

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Well then its just matter of opinion cause for me DS is fun and i dont mind jumping in DS just for 1 sec either.   I can see ways how to make it even more fun, but then every class mechanic should be redesigned cause atm DS is more fun+usefull then every others class mechanic. We might discuss that engineers and elementalist ones are more interesting, but in reality its just 4 lesser utility skills that depend on utility skills chosen and ability to have 4 different weapons, but with determined role for everyone of them.

While I acknowledge that this entire thread is an opinion thread, and that you are also entitled to one, your statements within it are pretty meaningless. You already said you don't play PvE. If you pay closer attention, everyone is saying that they like Death Shroud in PvP, but it lacks in other areas. A class needs to play well in all situations, as well as shine for it's unique qualities. Playing a class in PvE feels different than PvP, and it's when you emerge from PvP on the necromancer that it starts to lose it's charm.

Furthermore, it was not logic that you used in saying that every class should be designed if it's an opinion matter because you don't like them, it was wordplay for the sake of arguing, and that is just a waste of time. I designed the thread to be constructive. I welcome any opinions that can do so, whether they agree with the thread or not, but please refrain from goading for the sake of it. It reduced threads to pointless flame wars and quite frankly is rather childish.

Regarding your comment of elementalist, each element brings with it not only different skills, with different playstyles, but a trait tree designed to further that style of play. The traits also encourage swapping between elements by particular effects activating when you do so. The ele is one of the most finished classes, as well as the most diverse, because players can customise it to their chosen style with various possibilities. Engineer still needs a lot of work and has had generally unfavorable feedback from players, which Anet said they aim to address so I will not go in to that one here.

the necro on the other hand has "you either use death shroud, or you don't". And death shroud never changes. What's more is that life force is pretty arbitrary. They could have given it a long cooldown and it would have almost been the same. I want life force to stand out as a resource, because it IS a unique resource for the class, but it is not being used as well as it could be.

[Leeto]

Majigor, on 14 June 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

While I acknowledge that this entire thread is an opinion thread, and that you are also entitled to one, your statements within it are pretty meaningless. You already said you don't play PvE. If you pay closer attention, everyone is saying that they like Death Shroud in PvP, but it lacks in other areas. A class needs to play well in all situations, as well as shine for it's unique qualities. Playing a class in PvE feels different than PvP, and it's when you emerge from PvP on the necromancer that it starts to lose it's charm.

Furthermore, it was not logic that you used in saying that every class should be designed if it's an opinion matter because you don't like them, it was wordplay for the sake of arguing, and that is just a waste of time. I designed the thread to be constructive. I welcome any opinions that can do so, whether they agree with the thread or not, but please refrain from goading for the sake of it. It reduced threads to pointless flame wars and quite frankly is rather childish.

Regarding your comment of elementalist, each element brings with it not only different skills, with different playstyles, but a trait tree designed to further that style of play. The traits also encourage swapping between elements by particular effects activating when you do so. The ele is one of the most finished classes, as well as the most diverse, because players can customise it to their chosen style with various possibilities. Engineer still needs a lot of work and has had generally unfavorable feedback from players, which Anet said they aim to address so I will not go in to that one here.

the necro on the other hand has "you either use death shroud, or you don't". And death shroud never changes. What's more is that life force is pretty arbitrary. They could have given it a long cooldown and it would have almost been the same. I want life force to stand out as a resource, because it IS a unique resource for the class, but it is not being used as well as it could be.

You say my statements are meaningless so i wont bother discussing this topic anymore just want to say that theres no difference between death shroud in PVP and in PVE in both cases you can use it as dmg incraser, mitigator, interupt, filler between weapon switches + all the effects you get from traiting. Your asking to make it more fun while its more fun then any other class ability. If your so right and my meaningless opinion is wrong then anet will just redesign death shroud, which i doubt so seems their with me on this.

[Majigor]

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

You say my statements are meaningless so i wont bother discussing this topic anymore just want to say that theres no difference between death shroud in PVP and in PVE in both cases you can use it as dmg incraser, mitigator, interupt, filler between weapon switches + all the effects you get from traiting. Your asking to make it more fun while its more fun then any other class ability. If your so right and my meaningless opinion is wrong then anet will just redesign death shroud, which i doubt so seems their with me on this.

I'm not saying 'I'm right you're wrong'. I'm saying don't tell people you didn't play PvE then tell them they are wrong in not liking it in PvE. There will always be those that like or dislike something. Again, to reiterate my point. Life force is not doing what Anet state in the description that it should do. Look at the quote I posted from their own wiki entry. I'm suggesting a way that it could do what they said it should do.

[Leeto]

Majigor, on 14 June 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm not saying 'I'm right you're wrong'. I'm saying don't tell people you didn't play PvE then tell them they are wrong in not liking it in PvE. There will always be those that like or dislike something. Again, to reiterate my point. Life force is not doing what Anet state in the description that it should do. Look at the quote I posted from their own wiki entry. I'm suggesting a way that it could do what they said it should do.

Just cause you did take info from un-updated wiki doesnt mean anet was lying. Here you can see necro concept is more updated - http://www.guildwars...ns/necromancer/. While still it isnt updated that you dont automatically enter death shroud on death but still it was like that not so long time ago.

[styken]

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

You say my statements are meaningless so i wont bother discussing this topic anymore just want to say that theres no difference between death shroud in PVP and in PVE in both cases you can use it as dmg incraser, mitigator, interupt, filler between weapon switches + all the effects you get from traiting. Your asking to make it more fun while its more fun then any other class ability. If your so right and my meaningless opinion is wrong then anet will just redesign death shroud, which i doubt so seems their with me on this.

?? exist a lot of diference play with DS on PvE and special on WvW compared with sPvP...

[Leeto]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

?? exist a lot of diference play with DS on PvE and special on WvW compared with sPvP...

So maybe instead of waiting for next BWE that would let me experience this difference that i even dont believe to exist you could just tell me it?

[styken]

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

So maybe instead of waiting for next BWE that would let me experience this difference that i even dont believe to exist you could just tell me it?

for example on WvW most of time you will never enter DS , on sPvP you enter all the time on DS.

just try next BW some PvE and WvW, you will see the diferences, at least i saw lot of them, and DS outside sPvP is a bit boring, especially on WvW

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[Leeto]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

for example on WvW most of time you will never enter DS , on sPvP you enter all the time on DS.

just try next BW some PvE and WvW, you will see the diferences, at least i saw lot of them, and DS outside sPvP is a bit boring, especially on WvW

Enlighten me about PVE and not WvW, i played WvW and i used death shroud almost every 1v1 and to incrase crit chance for my marks too + if you dont want to you can just not use even weapons in WvW but that doesnt mean they are boring and should be redesigned.

[Starfleck]

absolutely /signed

A few unique things to the necromancer compared to other professions that we should definitely consider class-defining:

Minions. Disposable, yes, but the necromancer has the unique mindset that the corpses become his/her children, a little like the ranger's pet but even more close (ranger tends to use their pet, but doesn't focus on it as a way of life). If minions are created from corpses, they, by definition, become the necro's children, and we should be allowed to support them instead of constantly being forced to dispose of them. At the very least, we should have one heal skill similar to Heal As One (ranger) that heals both us and all minions.

Fear! The very icon above somebody's head shows it's origin: death (aka the skull). Our issue is that it's not unique anymore. Somebody got it in their head that it's an overpowered condition, when it really isn't. Launch and Knockback (non-removable) can be chained by other professions, but in order to create Fear (a removable condition) we have very few skills that can do it. Worse yet, the instant shout that the warrior has does a better job on-demand, and other classes can inflict it as well. If 50% longer duration (from traits) is the best that a necro can boast, it's dismal.

Life-stealing. This was unique to necros and ritualists in GW1, but now everybody can do it via upgrade components??? Ridiculous, the fact that we get, at best, 2-3 weapon skills that are not spammable. I mean I understand that there needs to be balance, and that it's super strong to be doing damage and self-healing simultaneously, but that was all considered long ago with GW1, and it should be available in gw2 via on-demand skills, rather than forcing us to rely on Traits!

F1-4 ideas are great, I have to admit, but because right now there are so many ways to very quickly gain life force, they might cause it to be an imbalanced super strong class. I'd like for the alternatives to death shroud to be generally weaker than the shroud abilities, because they lend us more complexity due to the nature of having more weapon and utility skills available at the same time. All in all, I'd much rather it not become a broken OP class.

[Tannet]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

for example on WvW most of time you will never enter DS , on sPvP you enter all the time on DS.

just try next BW some PvE and WvW, you will see the diferences, at least i saw lot of them, and DS outside sPvP is a bit boring, especially on WvW

I don't know how you played PvE but i used DS the whole time.
Sure killing easy mobs does not require any DS-skills but doing events and dungeons requires all DS Skills.

I jumped into DS everytime i knew my Doom or Life Transfer was up. These skill were part of my "rotation". CC and traited Life Transfer provide so much support to all allied players. Since Veteran and Championmobs aren't totaly immune to CC it's realy helpful.

/edit
typo

Edited by Tannet, 14 June 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Leeto]

Tannet, on 14 June 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I don't know how you played PvE but i used DS the whole time.
Sure killing easy mobs does not require any DS-skill but doing events and dungeons requires a lot skill with the DS.

I jumped into DS everytime i knew my Doom or Life Transfer was up. These skill were part of my "rotation". CC and traited Life Transfer provide so much support to all allied players. Since Veteran and Championmobs aren't totaly immune to CC it's realy helpful.

LOL just as i thought, i said them if you think DS is boring or w/e its because you use it only when low on health and need to survive, so stated many uses in PVP, then they say its boring in PVE, and i couldnt figure it why you can have so many uses for it in PVP but only as dmg spam in PVE   Your post just shows that i was right.
Theres like 15+ different usages for DS, if you find it more boring then any other profession feature then your moron or just dont know how to use it.

Edited by Leeto, 14 June 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[styken]

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

LOL just as i thought, i said them if you think DS is boring or w/e its because you use it only when low on health and need to survive, so stated many uses in PVP, then they say its boring in PVE, and i couldnt figure it why you can have so many uses for it in PVP but only as dmg spam in PVE   Your post just shows that i was right.
Theres like 15+ different usages for DS, if you find it more boring then any other profession feature then your moron or just dont know how to use it.

again?? go read some previous post i made and you will see how i play DS.
you basicaly are saying i dont know how to play with DS, but everything you say i already say before....
im not saying the core mechanic of DS on PvE/WvW change compared sPvP the factor fun is the one as change because you dont need to enter DS most of time.

you are talk to a guy that build a specific build DS on sPvP, but whatever you are the Necro expert so go play PvE and see if you need to enter DS to weak enemy or remove boons/chilled etc on random mobs on PvE....

DS on PvE is only fun mainly on DE and unless you are grind DE's  you will spend much time killing random mobs on PvE.

about WvW i dont even bother to comment much because if you say 1vs1....yap you must doing some important things on WvW to encounter lot of 1vs1 fights.
please tell me what you do with DS when you are with a group trying enter a fort? ya, you will only use DS as a defense mechanism and to have aditional 4s fury (and this is what im talk about, this is boring like hell, enter and exit DS just to have some minor second of fury, 4 sec if you are really quick place mark) unless your DS have some special skills/traits....

and if you are a condition Necro on WvW you only use DS as survival mechanism only, if you are try enter a castle.

BTW dont exist any good Necro that will go  trait for DS on WvW....

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Leeto]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

again?? go read some previous post i made and you will see how i play DS.
you basicaly are saying i dont know how to play with DS, but everything you say i already say before....
im not saying the core mechanic of DS on PvE/WvW change compared sPvP the factor fun is the one as change because you dont need to enter DS most of time.

you are talk to a guy that build a specific build DS on sPvP, but whatever you are the Necro expert so go play PvE and see if you need to enter DS to weak enemy or remove boons/chilled etc on random mobs on PvE....

DS on PvE is only fun mainly on DE and unless you are grind DE's  you will spend much time killing random mobs on PvE.

about WvW i dont even bother to comment much because if you say 1vs1....yap you must doing some important things on WvW to encounter lot of 1vs1 fights.
please tell me what you do with DS when you are with a group trying enter a fort? ya, you will only use DS as a defense mechanism and to have aditional 4s fury (and this is what im talk about, this is boring like hell, enter and exit DS just to have some minor second of fury, 4 sec if you are really quick place mark) unless your DS have some special skills/traits....

and if you are a condition Necro on WvW you only use DS as survival mechanism only, if you are try enter a castle.

BTW dont exist any good Necro that will go trait for DS on WvW....

Your just full of shit   I have never said this before on these forums but just L2P, you dont know how to use DS so you find it boring, just go play thief and lets see how much fun you`ll get out of steal. But this conversation is over.

[styken]

lol. ya you are the man.
you dont say anything, but the other are the ones "full of shit"....

[Tannet]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

DS on PvE is only fun mainly on DE and unless you are grind DE's  you will spend much time killing random mobs on PvE.

That's correct. You'll kill many random while leveling but not all the time. I mostly did DEs because grinding mobs was too boring for me. Fighting in a group, supporting allies and CCing enemies was in my opinion much more fun

Against normal mobs i wasn't using much DS but like i stated above my mainfocus was on DEs and Dungeons.

I just wanted to make clear that PvE isn't just grinding mobs. It becomes more and more harder and requires on higher levels more CC and group support than in low level areas.

My previous post was no offence. I hope there were no misconceptions.

[aequitaz2k]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

btw, anyone create a post with this suggestions on official forum?

Well there's this thread: https://forum-en.gui...-my-Hate/page/1
It's a little more in general but DS/LF has been discussed there as well.

Leeto, on 14 June 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Theres like 15+ different usages for DS, if you find it more boring then any other profession feature then your moron or just dont know how to use it.

I'd like you to tell me all those 15+ different usages ... I'm not entirely in the "DS is boring crowd" but a little more diversity (not power - diversity) wouldn't hurt. I think you're exaggerating quite much with those 15+ usages.

Edited by aequitaz2k, 14 June 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[styken]

Tannet, on 14 June 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

That's correct. You'll kill many random while leveling but not all the time. I mostly did DEs because grinding mobs was too boring for me. Fighting in a group, supporting allies and CCing enemies was in my opinion much more fun

Against normal mobs i wasn't using much DS but like i stated above my mainfocus was on DEs and Dungeons.

I just wanted to make clear that PvE isn't just grinding mobs. It becomes more and more harder and requires on higher levels more CC and group support than in low level areas.

My previous post was no offence. I hope there were no misconceptions.

i really understand your toughi and i agree, healthy discussions are great.
i didnt find DS much boring during my leveling  on this BW´'s, since DS on BE are very fun and i really like the Necro play,  my big concern is about WvW. on PvE you will unlock other traits to make DS more fun and for sure mobs will be much more hard to kill so on PvE maybe will be np.

on WvW is the place i see DS be boring, lets see how i will feel with time but dont undertstand why would someone be against more diversity. diversity/options are always good IMO

PS: english isnt my first language so sometimes maybe what i write dont match what i really wanted to write, so give me a discount guys xD

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[Sifflion]

aequitaz2k, on 14 June 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Well there's this thread: https://forum-en.gui...-my-Hate/page/1
It's a little more in general but DS/LF has been discussed there as well.


I'd like you to tell me all those 15+ different usages ... I'm not entirely in the "DS is boring crowd" but a little more diversity (not power - diversity) wouldn't hurt. I think you're exaggerating quite much with those 15+ usages.

1- Last seconds of life, enter DS until depleted and them get some instant life force or die.
2- Tanking high damage burst.
3 - CCing enemies, breaking revive animations of enemies, etc.
4 - Chasing enemies when swiftness is on CD
5 - Healing your allies when traited with life transfer
6 - Massive DMG source with 1 spam as a power/crit necro
7 - Pop out those "enter DS" traits
8 - Break enemy CCs
9 - HP administration, enter DS when in full life force, let the enemy hit you a bit, leave DS and fullfil your life force again.
10 - Massive AoE damage with life transfer on the middle of a zerg, the necro is one of the few classes that can survive that ( did that on WvWvW, pretty neat ).
11 - Bleed out your enemy as a conditionmancer
12 - Absorb nasty conditions, like 15 stacks of bleed.
13 - Get some buff for doing something after it, like stacking might with 1 to them leave and enter lich.

Cant remember more uses right now, those were some of the things i did with DS over the entire weekend. Yep you were right, they arent 15, just 13.

Edited by Sifflion, 14 June 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[Tannet]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

lets see how i will feel with time but dont undertstand why would someone be against more diversity. diversity/options are always good IMO

I can't understand it either. I'm not against diversity for the necromancer's class mechanic but i don't want to have F1-4 skills. It would feel like a second Mesmer class. Okay... elementalists have also F1-4 skills but their weaponskills change and they enter a new way of fighting every time they switch attunements. Having different spells on F1-F4 would be similiar to the Mesmer ones.
I would like too see more effects for the DS-skills. Like in my post here i stated some changes.

The Death Shroud feels unique and it was the first ability from the necromancer which fascinated me so much! A Shadeform, which can be turned on and of to get acces to new skills and gain some survivability! That's what the necromancer makes him a necromancer in my view. And this is why aditional life force mechanics should be implemented into the DS.

[aequitaz2k]

Sifflion, on 14 June 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Cant remember more uses right now, those were some of the things i did with DS over the entire weekend. Yep you were right, they arent 15, just 13.

Ah must be the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 build.
Besides that ... 1,2,9,11,12 are technically more or less the same - avoid damage.
3 is true.
4,5,6,7,13 are depending on your traits - can't have them all in one build ... at least not if you want to use anything besides DS.
8 -Does entering DS break CCs?!
10 is true and awesome - did this as well.

[styken]

most of them are the same usage: survivability.
btw enter DS dont break immobilize...

4- you know is very low speed boost compared with swiftness righ?
5- true but is very specific, need to have several enemies on range and allies on range too and have a good compassion.
6- true
7- use as a debuff mechanism (enfeeble/spinal shiver)
8- not true
1,2,9,11,12- are the same, used for survivability
10- do a lot of total damage if you have +3 targets on range but dont do great damage to each one
12- very bad move, you will gonna loose lot of LF. only do this if dont have CC heal or putrid mark or dagger offhand
13- a bit mehh, you need time to build any serious might buff (at least 3 might) and you need time to cast Lich Form and both skill 1 of LF and DS are far from be quick attacks

and obvious you cant have all this at same time.

Edited by styken, 14 June 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Sifflion]

aequitaz2k, on 14 June 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Ah must be the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 build.
Besides that ... 1,2,9,11,12 are technically more or less the same - avoid damage.
3 is true.
4,5,6,7,13 are depending on your traits - can't have them all in one build ... at least not if you want to use anything besides DS.
8 -Does entering DS break CCs?!
10 is true and awesome - did this as well.

Calling it the same is like calling all the moba heroes the same, boring, and simple. Yes, they all do absorb damage, but the intention is not the same as is not the way of using it. Its like telling me that Alistar Headbut ( if you play lol ) its only a boring knockback, the truth is that is only a knockback but you can use it for different purposes, like pulling your enemy to your tower, pulling it out of a fight, breaking a channeled spell.

1 is used in conjunction with spectral armor, the idea is to spam DS until you die or your allies comes to help. It requires quite a bit of reflexes because you need to pop heal every time you can ( you must remember its CD ) and you need to absorb damage only as a spectre.
2 is waiting for that neat moment where you know your enemy is going to waste all their valuable CDs to burn your health down, pop DS just for that moment ( the burst will probably damage half of your LF bar ) and laugh at him.
9 Is complex, and i think is the major reason of why necro is being called an OP class. If you manage to maintain your LF bar more than 50%-60% constantly, and to pop heals when not in DS, you will be REALLY hard to kill, again, nothing to do with the other uses, because it takes quite a good amount of memory and skill to do, and the intent is not the same.
11 ? I was talking about the bleed when crit trait combined with the fury when you enter DS, nothing to do with defense .
12 Could be compared to 2, yep really, but has nothing to do with the others.

4 Use the hand, you dont need a trait.

About breaking CCs, im almost sure that you can break knockback with the stability trait, im sure i did that many times but now im not sure if it was a bugged animation or lag. Anyways, what i really did was going into DS for example to avoid CC, like avoiding an elementalist tornado, or a warrior charge.

If you are traited for DS, you can have all. Except heal, and an useful bleed ( both requires specific builds to be good ), but you asked for different uses, not uses in one build . ( Tell me another class with many uses for their mechanics with only 1 trait build )

Also:
14 - Absorb enviromental dmg, like falling dmg and rushing trap rooms.

Edited by Sifflion, 14 June 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[aequitaz2k]

Cancelling knockdown via stability DS - could be very interesting if this works, got to test it next BWE since knockback is one of the most annyoing CCs around
14 is also true and can be awesome - I once killed four or five players in wvw by jumping off a cliff (they were hunting me) in DS and placing marks and wells right where I landed ... wish I had a vid.
While I do agree that the damage avoiding actions you posted do have a different idea behind them - the mechanic stays the same. Not sure if we'll find a common ground here. 15+ different usages for me would mean 1. avoiding damage, 2. dealing damage, 3. CCing ... etc
But actually it's not that important - since like I said before I'm basically fine with DS. Especially in sPvP and WvW it's very important and viable (maybe even a little OP). But what most of the people who wanted more diversity were talking about was "standard" (non-dungeon, non-elite event) PvE. While I'm aware that it probably is impossible to avoid any sense of boredom if a player plays the same character for hundreds of hours, I do believe that a few minor changes/additions (either different shrouds - would be probably too close to elementalist though, some F2-F4 "utility skills" like AoE cripple&bleed enemies etc. or more diverse DS skills) could vastly improve the feeling for the necro in PvE.

/edit Imho it would improve (note: not make stronger, but more fun to play) the Necro a lot if we had different usages for Life Force. Right now it's either: Oh 100% LF - pop DS and deal damge, Oh almost dead - pop DS and try to stay in DS until heal is ready, Oh that's gonna be a lot of burst damage - pop DS etc. etc. But if we had additional ways of using Life Force you'd have to consider all the time: is worth using the AoE Cripple/Bleed right now or will it drain too much of my LF and therefore I won't be able to stay in DS long enough for my CDs to replenish and so on .... So basically the problem is that the Life Force - DS system is too one-dimensional ,,, it's just pop DS or don't pop DS. That's the biggest issue I have with the necro. Again I like ... no I love DS but there's just not enough we can do with our life force.

Edited by aequitaz2k, 14 June 2012 - 10:05 PM.