119 replies to this topic

[Sifflion]

aequitaz2k, on 14 June 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Cancelling knockdown via stability DS - could be very interesting if this works, got to test it next BWE since knockback is one of the most annyoing CCs around
14 is also true and can be awesome - I once killed four or five players in wvw by jumping off a cliff (they were hunting me) in DS and placing marks and wells right where I landed ... wish I had a vid.
While I do agree that the damage avoiding actions you posted do have a different idea behind them - the mechanic stays the same. Not sure if we'll find a common ground here. 15+ different usages for me would mean 1. avoiding damage, 2. dealing damage, 3. CCing ... etc
But actually it's not that important - since like I said before I'm basically fine with DS. Especially in sPvP and WvW it's very important and viable (maybe even a little OP). But what most of the people who wanted more diversity were talking about was "standard" (non-dungeon, non-elite event) PvE. While I'm aware that it probably is impossible to avoid any sense of boredom if a player plays the same character for hundreds of hours, I do believe that a few minor changes/additions (either different shrouds - would be probably too close to elementalist though, some F2-F4 "utility skills" like AoE cripple&bleed enemies etc. or more diverse DS skills) could vastly improve the feeling for the necro in PvE.

Yeah, dont take me bad. I do agree that it could be interesting to have another way to use LF, is just that i dont agree at all about the general opinion of DS being bland .

I do have videos about the knockback thing, but i do have 16 hours of footage.... and i must go now, i might search later to confirm that if i can.

[Thyar]

Seems to me that right now, the reason DS seems so OP to many people is because almost all of us use it - and we use it because, well, because there's really nothing else to spend our LF on that would encourage us to make the tactical choice of remaining out of DS for other LF abilities.

So I can see a place for further LF abilities, which cost a significant LF price, which would also change up the playstyle approach for many Necros because it increases strategic options at hand.  And it would reduce the seemingly guaranteed "Death Shroud turtle" routine as well in PvP - because every time we use those other special LF abilities, we would be knocking off significant chunks from the amount of time that we could then remain in DS.

[styken]

Siffion correct me but i have stability trait (this is a must xD) and i couldnt remove imobilize when enter DS, you experience something diferent?

[Sifflion]

styken, on 14 June 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Siffion correct me but i have stability trait (this is a must xD) and i couldnt remove imobilize when enter DS, you experience something diferent?

Your right. I always cast it a split second after knockback, it made it look like i was breaking knockback but not. Anyways, with Shrouded Removal you can break some CC (didnt tried).

Edited by Sifflion, 15 June 2012 - 12:22 AM.

[Majigor]

I just want to place a reminder here that I find DS boring because it's the ONLY class mechanic we have. Fear and lifesteal really aren't worth mentioning, and I don't consider utilities a mechanic per se, because all classes have individual utilities, but the core gameplay comes from F skills, weapon skills and resources if they have one- ie life force and initiative. I say this because each class is easily definable at low levels before utilities are even available. they all play different. Yet necro just seems bland here in copmparison.

Anyways what I'm getting at is I do like death shroud, but ALONE it is just dull. I want a way of mixing up necro's playstyle, as well as make life force a more interesting resource, because it is a unique resource but really isn't being treated that way.

Some people have noted that it does give some healing with traits. The point i'm trying to make is that all our traits just revolve around giving it minor benefits, but it doesn't change the fact that the only way of playing necro is either spamming DS, or conserving it. My suggestion would mean many of those traits would be changed to focus on the new skills, which in turn would mix up the gameplay and actually make use of their resource better.

Also, to anyone saying the suggestion is overpowered, you are going wrong here because you are looking at it as if it were simply thrown in on top of the current necro set up. For this idea to be added, some stats changes and trait changes would take place. I'm not suggesting adding it straight in with no balancing that would be idiotic.

[Haterx732]

From the outside Necro appears to have the most interesting and unique class mechanic but as for the class itself?

I don't know... it was boring.

[mazut]

aequitaz2k, on 13 June 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Posted in https://forum-en.gui...ge/1#post268138
Would be a lot of work - so probably after release/when an expansion comes out, but they definitely have to expand the things you can do with your life force. Additional/Different Shrouds would be perfect imho. Oh and we need an elite well

I thought of somethig similar, but more like: Damage DS/Support DS/ Control DS.(F1-F3) and F4 - minion call(follow) ability.
This wont make disbalance, compared to Ele/Engi, who have many options.

1st skill stay the same in all forms(Life blast), but add different conditions or effects.

Damage form:
1st: Life blast that always pierce.
2nd: Spirit Rush - grant 50% speed for 3 sec and damage all foes in melee range every sec. (12sec cd)
3rd: Front cone damage + bleed (15 sec cd)
4th: Life Transfer, the same as it is right now. (40 sec cd)

Support Form:
1st: Life blast, 50% chance to remove condition from allies nearby to target.
2nd: damage + heal adjusment allies (12sec cd)
3rd: Well of ??? - Allies take 50% less damage. (duration 4 sec/ 40sec cd)
4th: Well of ??? - faster regen(20%) of: life force/adrenaline/virtues/toolbelt skills/shatters/attunements/pet swap/steal.(duration 8sec./60sec cd)

Control Form:

1st: Life blast, cripple(1sec)
2nd: Dark Path: Send out a claw. If this attack hits an enemy, you teleport to that foe and chill nearby enemies.(15sec cd) (Same as it is)
3rd: AoE Fear (duration 2 sec/ 40sec cd) OR Doom: Make your foe flee in fear (1sec/20se cd)
4th: Mark of ???(Radius: 200), immobilize(2sec) (30 sec cd)

Can't swap between Forms, must wait for the cd to enter different form. Forms might have different colors. Marks, wells and conditions in DS are affected by traits (faster recharge/unblockable/grount targeted...etc)

Edited by mazut, 15 June 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Majigor]

Haterx732, on 15 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

From the outside Necro appears to have the most interesting and unique class mechanic but as for the class itself?

I don't know... it was boring.

That's exactly what I found when I tried it. They all had something really unique, so when I cam to necro it let me down.

mazut, on 15 June 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

I thought of somethig similar, but more like: Damage DS/Support DS/ Control DS.(F1-F3) and F4 - minion call(follow) ability.
This wont make disbalance, compared to Ele/Engi, who have many options.

1st skill stay the same in all forms(Life blast), but add different conditions or effects.

Damage form:
1st: Life blast that always pierce.
2nd: Spirit Rush - grant 50% speed for 3 sec and damage all foes in melee range every sec. (12sec cd)
3rd: Front cone damage + bleed (15 sec cd)
4th: Life Transfer, the same as it is right now. (40 sec cd)

Support Form:
1st: Life blast, 50% chance to remove condition from allies nearby to target.
2nd: damage + heal adjusment allies (12sec cd)
3rd: Well of ??? - Allies take 50% less damage. (duration 4 sec/ 40sec cd)
4th: Well of ??? - faster regen(20%) of: life force/adrenaline/virtues/toolbelt skills/shatters/attunements/pet swap/steal.(duration 8sec./60sec cd)

Control Form:

1st: Life blast, cripple(1sec)
2nd: Dark Path: Send out a claw. If this attack hits an enemy, you teleport to that foe and chill nearby enemies.(15sec cd) (Same as it is)
3rd: AoE Fear (duration 2 sec/ 40sec cd) OR Doom: Make your foe flee in fear (1sec/20se cd)
4th: Mark of ???(Radius: 200), immobilize(2sec) (30 sec cd)

Can't swap between Forms, must wait for the cd to enter different form. Forms might have different colors. Marks, wells and conditions in DS are affected by traits (faster recharge/unblockable/grount targeted...etc)

A lot of people have suggested having different death shrouds, but my concern here is that it may not necessarily fix the issue of only spamming death shroud as a unique feature. People would instead spec toward the death shroud of their choice and stick to that one, ending up with the same problem. The reason I suggested abilities separate to death shroud is that it gives more variety. We have death shroud, and we have something else. I used the thief as an example to illustrate what i mean. Thief has Steal as F1, however it also has dual skills and initiative woven around it's weapon skills. These are additional mechanics to thief but flesh out the overall play experience of the class to feel more unique. I felt necro was lacking this by only having death shroud, so by having other skills which consume life force it forces us to always be making on the fly decisions about how best to spend the resource.

[LastDay]

You keep talking about Death Shroud as if it's just one little mechanic.
Not only does it use Life Force as a health bar Death Shroud also has 4 different skills.

If you are only using it for the extra health bar you are missing out.
There are so many ways you can use the Death Shroud.

You can jump into it at 100% Life Force to just Spam Life Blast until you hit the 50% Life Force mark, then jump back out.
You can jump into it instead of using a dodge the eat the damage from a hit.
You can use it to keep monsters busy hitting you instead of the other players. ("tank")
You can use it as a plain old "oh crap!" button and run away.
You can jump into it just to close a gap with Dark Path.
You can jump into it to cast Doom as an interrupt on something nasty.
In addition if you really enjoy using Death Shroud you can even trait it for different purposes.

Now try to remember all that while in combat. It's difficult.
Very difficult... But I'm sure we'll get there with experience.

Compared to Warrior's Adrenaline, Guardian's Virtues and Thief's Steal the Death Shroud mechanic pretty versatile as is.

The Necromancer has a very high skill ceiling and just because we are a bunch of newbies who can't quite get a grasp of the Death Shroud yet does not mean that the depth isn't there.

I'm all for new mechanics in addition to the old ones, but you are trying to make the Death Shroud/Necromancer sound like a victim and he's honestly working quite well already.

There's also always the possibility that you are trying to enjoy a Profession who's core mechanics aren't something you like.
The Necromancer is great at the "Control" part of GW2's trinity, and it's something pretty subtle.
It's not as flashy as what many other Professions do so it's not for everyone.

Personally?
I made a Thief and an Elementalist and couldn't bring myself to play them much because I wanted to jump back on my Necro so badly.

[aequitaz2k]

Majigor, on 15 June 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

That's exactly what I found when I tried it. They all had something really unique, so when I cam to necro it let me down.



A lot of people have suggested having different death shrouds, but my concern here is that it may not necessarily fix the issue of only spamming death shroud as a unique feature. People would instead spec toward the death shroud of their choice and stick to that one, ending up with the same problem. The reason I suggested abilities separate to death shroud is that it gives more variety. We have death shroud, and we have something else. I used the thief as an example to illustrate what i mean. Thief has Steal as F1, however it also has dual skills and initiative woven around it's weapon skills. These are additional mechanics to thief but flesh out the overall play experience of the class to feel more unique. I felt necro was lacking this by only having death shroud, so by having other skills which consume life force it forces us to always be making on the fly decisions about how best to spend the resource.

My first idea was to add different shrouds as well. While I still think it would change the playstyle a lot (since the shrouds should have different skills, behave differently and look differently) I tend to agree with you. If they left DS just as it is (underwater shrouds gonna get some changes according to the official forums) and would add F2-F4 utilities which use Life Force as well, it definitely would improve the necro's playstyle. You would always have to decide whether to use the Utility Skill or save up the Life Force for DS. I'd like that

/edit @ LastDay: We don't have a problem with DS in general (most in this thread probably love the mechanic) the problem is that DS is the only way we can use our Life Force. Of course there's always the decision DS now or later, but ultimatively it's still just "pop DS or don't pop DS" all the time. If there were other ways of utilizing the Life Force it would vastly improve the possiblities (again not making necro stronger but more diverse) and therefore the feeling of playing the necro.

Edited by aequitaz2k, 15 June 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[mazut]

Why is that a problem? Lets put the ballance on a side. Its more builds, more situational usages, more interesting gameplay, depend on player momment decision. All played the beta know that all skills are useful, no matter what speck you have(traits). So investing in one don't make the rest redundant and useless.

LastDay, on 15 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

You keep talking about Death Shroud as if it's just one little mechanic.
Not only does it use Life Force as a health bar Death Shroud also has 4 different skills.

If you are only using it for the extra health bar you are missing out.
There are so many ways you can use the Death Shroud.

You can jump into it at 100% Life Force to just Spam Life Blast until you hit the 50% Life Force mark, then jump back out.
You can jump into it instead of using a dodge the eat the damage from a hit.
You can use it to keep monsters busy hitting you instead of the other players. ("tank")
You can use it as a plain old "oh crap!" button and run away.
You can jump into it just to close a gap with Dark Path.
You can jump into it to cast Doom as an interrupt on something nasty.
In addition if you really enjoy using Death Shroud you can even trait it for different purposes.

Now try to remember all that while in combat. It's difficult.
Very difficult... But I'm sure we'll get there with experience.

Compared to Warrior's Adrenaline, Guardian's Virtues and Thief's Steal the Death Shroud mechanic pretty versatile as is.

The Necromancer has a very high skill ceiling and just because we are a bunch of newbies who can't quite get a grasp of the Death Shroud yet does not mean that the depth isn't there.

I'm all for new mechanics in addition to the old ones, but you are trying to make the Death Shroud/Necromancer sound like a victim and he's honestly working quite well already.

There's also always the possibility that you are trying to enjoy a Profession who's core mechanics aren't something you like.
The Necromancer is great at the "Control" part of GW2's trinity, and it's something pretty subtle.
It's not as flashy as what many other Professions do so it's not for everyone.

Personally?
I made a Thief and an Elementalist and couldn't bring myself to play them much because I wanted to jump back on my Necro so badly.

Actualy the 2 main usages are either to survive or to deal damage if traited. There is almost zero utility. Dark Path - very situational if you dont use Life transfer, also can be avoided. Fear is useful in any situation, but its 1sec duration make it meh at best. I hoped fear will be my interrupt, but its so far from that... /sigh

[LastDay]

I see both Dark Path and Doom as situational skills.
However you always have them with you, no specific weapon or Utility skill required.

I bet half the time people won't remember they have Doom until AFTER something insta-downs them with a super attack of some sort.
To be honest I didn't use Dark Path all that much, but that's probably because I used Spectral Grasp.
Just like Spectral Grasp it seems like a good way to save people.

I found Fear in general being pretty useless as anything else than an interrupt. With one exception.
I did use it to move a huge giant boss further away from people so that I could res them without getting downed myself.

Fear is probably really nasty with the right sigils and traits though.

Edited by LastDay, 15 June 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[Majigor]

LastDay, on 15 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Compared to Warrior's Adrenaline, Guardian's Virtues and Thief's Steal the Death Shroud mechanic pretty versatile as is.

The Necromancer has a very high skill ceiling and just because we are a bunch of newbies who can't quite get a grasp of the Death Shroud yet does not mean that the depth isn't there.

I'm all for new mechanics in addition to the old ones, but you are trying to make the Death Shroud/Necromancer sound like a victim and he's honestly working quite well already.

There's also always the possibility that you are trying to enjoy a Profession who's core mechanics aren't something you like.
The Necromancer is great at the "Control" part of GW2's trinity, and it's something pretty subtle.
It's not as flashy as what many other Professions do so it's not for everyone.

I did get a grasp of death shroud. I also like death shroud. Please don't bring insults into the thread, we already had one guy try that. it's unnecessary, you can make your point without using insults. Just because someone has said something you don't agree with doesn't mean they lack experience. We all have had the same time frame to gather said experience after all.

I'm not saying "The problem is Death Shroud", I'm saying the problem is the class is too heavily dependent on this one mechanic which, actually, IS pretty small. It's just the same old skills over and over, and life force is merely a fancy cooldown for it. The reason I said death shroud gets boring is because you are repeating the same thing far too much, It's just 4 skills and it gets dull. Also, there is very little 'thinking' involved with playing it.

The argument I am making (And I intend to go back to the original post and edit because it is extremely incoherent) is that besides the necro's F1 skill, it lacks class mechanics. All the classes have other little aspects woven throughout their playstyles which makes them feel unique. Necro does not. The reason for my comparison to thief is purely because necro and thief are the only 2 classes with special resource bars, yet necro really isn't taking advantage of this as well as it could be.

Furthermore, I am aware that you can trait to give little heals and whatnot, but other class mechanics do not require traits for them to exist. A trait is not exactly a mechanic per se (please try hard not to misunderstand that statement, I am aware that traits ARE mechanics, but I am trying to show a distinction between the core mechanics of a class un-traited), but something that allows you to customse further from the base mechanics to suit your playstyle or objective. When you play any class at the lowest levels you are immediately aware of how it plays as a unique class, the necro seems to be lacking here.

[Draehl]

The problem is the DS skills. Not that our weapon skills are much better, but I'd rather just have the extra health bar and keep my weapon skills that are actually applicable to my overall build instead of life blast spam and three long cooldown skills. Life blast has such a long cast time it's really a liability for builds that want to crit for secondary effects.

[Majigor]

I think that by taking the bonuses like the healing out of the traits and into the other F buttons, we can create more traits around those other F buttons, and then spread our builds out a bit more so that death shroud doesn't get as repetitive. Also, by having to decide more on how to spend life force it creates more strategic gameplay for the class. I'm just suggesting a way of taking better advantage of life force and a way of allowing a better spread of builds and gameplay, because currently it is all bundled up around death shroud. You just trait it to do everything then repeat it over and over.

[LastDay]

Majigor, on 15 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I did get a grasp of death shroud. I also like death shroud. Please don't bring insults into the thread, we already had one guy try that. it's unnecessary, you can make your point without using insults. Just because someone has said something you don't agree with doesn't mean they lack experience. We all have had the same time frame to gather said experience after all.

Newbie means beginner.
In my case I wasn't using it as an insult.
I was simply stating that we are all still new to Guild Wars 2.

How many characters have I leveled to lv80?
Zero.

How many dungeons have I completed?
None.

Have I finished the entire personal storyline?
Nope, only a small part of it is in the beta.

What does this make me?
A newbie!

In my eyes we are all a bunch of silly newbies doing crazy theorycrafting on a game where very few things are 100% nailed down.
It's great fun but you shouldn't think that we are any good at the game yet.

I think most of us are under this:
http://en.wikipedia....ory_superiority

We think we know so much, while in reality we really don't.
I bet I'll facepalm at half the stuff I've typed on these forums once I've played for a year or two.

Majigor, on 15 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm not saying "The problem is Death Shroud", I'm saying the problem is the class is too heavily dependent on this one mechanic which, actually, IS pretty small. It's just the same old skills over and over, and life force is merely a fancy cooldown for it. The reason I said death shroud gets boring is because you are repeating the same thing far too much, It's just 4 skills and it gets dull. Also, there is very little 'thinking' involved with playing it.

I don't recall you ever claiming that Necromancers are too dependent on Death Shroud, but I dunno what to think of it anyway.
You could be right or you could be wrong.

I don't see always having the same Death Shroud skills as an issue.
Guardians always have the three same virtues. They are still awesome.

I believe that there's plenty of thinking involved when you get deeper into it.
On surface Death Shroud is very simple, but chop it into pieces and it's very complicated.
These are all things you already know, but may not have given enough thought:

Life Force functions as both a timer and a health bar at once.
That's rather complicated all by itself. Health = time?

Exiting Death Shroud makes it go on a cooldown.
Exit Death Shroud too early and it'll be on cooldown when you want it.
Exit it too late and you burn too much Life Force.

Three of the DS skills have their own cooldowns, separate from everything else, and you cannot see them ticking while not in Death Shroud.
Re-enter Death Shroud too early and they are still on cooldown...

Even though just spamming Life Blast or using it for defense is good enough for beginners I believe that the Death Shroud might have a lot of depth to it.
It's probably one of the most complicated Profession mechanics despite being so simple on the surface.

Majigor, on 15 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

The argument I am making (And I intend to go back to the original post and edit because it is extremely incoherent) is that besides the necro's F1 skill, it lacks class mechanics. All the classes have other little aspects woven throughout their playstyles which makes them feel unique. Necro does not. The reason for my comparison to thief is purely because necro and thief are the only 2 classes with special resource bars, yet necro really isn't taking advantage of this as well as it could be.

Necro has tons of Conditions, skills that benefit from Conditions and skills that transfer Conditions.
Conditions just aren't very flashy so it's easy to miss what a ridiculous amount of Conditions and Condition control Necromancers have.

You could call it a medical condition...

Marks and Minions are Necro things too for sure, but they too involve Conditions.
Life Stealing is supposed to be a thing, too, but right now it's meh...

Majigor, on 15 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Furthermore, I am aware that you can trait to give little heals and whatnot, but other class mechanics do not require traits for them to exist. A trait is not exactly a mechanic per se (please try hard not to misunderstand that statement, I am aware that traits ARE mechanics, but I am trying to show a distinction between the core mechanics of a class un-traited), but something that allows you to customse further from the base mechanics to suit your playstyle or objective. When you play any class at the lowest levels you are immediately aware of how it plays as a unique class, the necro seems to be lacking here.

All Professions have traits for their Profession mechanics to add stuff to them.
So I... I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
It's like 4am here so I might be a bit slow right now, I'm sorry.
I'll re-read it sometime later, maybe?

[Majigor]

LastDay, on 16 June 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

All Professions have traits for their Profession mechanics to add stuff to them.
So I... I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
It's like 4am here so I might be a bit slow right now, I'm sorry.
I'll re-read it sometime later, maybe?

What i'm trying to pint to here is that when you jump into a class at very low levels, before traits are even available, you instantly become aware of how it plays differently to other classes and what is available to this class that makes it unique. So when I refer to core mechanics I am talking about how that class plays organically, before you add extra effects through traits. I feel that necro seems to be lacking in this department, and that their traits are too much about making death shroud have an extra effect as an incentive to repeat it over and over. I wanted to make a suggestion that take a few of those traits and turn them in to actual play mechanics that you have control over, rather than a passive benefit. I also wanted to address the issue of death shroud becoming a bit stale and samey (Which many people have been saying on forums such as this one and the official one). A surprisingly large amount of feedback is about the class being boring, and I noticed this too. It lacked the spark the rest of them had. I'm aware this is partly opinion however, but i'd like to state as an example that I don't enjoy playing the warrior class, but I still didn't view it as boring. I guess necromancer just felt like it was missing a well rounded play mechanic in comparison to others. I think in a way the class felt outdated. In older MMO's the player finds themselves cycling their skills. They build a routine and follow it almost rigidly, and after a while it gets repetitive and boring, GW2 is meant to be doing away with this and requires more quick thinking, such as dodging, so that you can't rely on sitting still hitting your button routine over and over. Necromancer felt too much like the MMO's of old though, because you do just cycle skills with death shroud. A few people have already given examples of doing this in this thread.

I felt that by adding the F skills I suggested (they are only a rough idea though and I was hoping people could suggest ways of reconfiguring them a bit) then you have more options which require snap decisions about how to spend life force from moment to moment. It also fits with the aesthetics of the class because you choose how to sacrifice your life force, and it means we have other options that just death shroud to add more variety to the class. Finally, it makes better use of life force as a unique resource, specific only to this class.

I hope all of that made sense I know it's a bit of a ramble.

Edit: Another way of putting it is that the other classes don't need traits to make them feel unique, but the traits do add a lot more to them. Necro, however, does need the traits to make them feel unique, meaning I feel something else could be added to achieve this before traiting and specializing how you want.

[Xeviant]

Great ideas.  I did kind of feel like death shroud was a bit bland.  We use it for survival or burst(if you trait it).  I think that was the idea behind the mechanic, but, I wish there was bit more defined use for it.  Perhaps have the abilities change based on traits/weapons.  As far as lifedraining/fear mechanics are concerned: those are very awesome and as you state a part of the profession's definition.  They are, however, very difficult to balance.  It's not impossible, but, it takes a lot of finesse. Threads like this are great because they put some awesome ideas out there.  If only this were an official thread so that devs could drawn on this.

[Majigor]

Xeviant, on 16 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Great ideas.  I did kind of feel like death shroud was a bit bland.  We use it for survival or burst(if you trait it).  I think that was the idea behind the mechanic, but, I wish there was bit more defined use for it.  Perhaps have the abilities change based on traits/weapons.  As far as lifedraining/fear mechanics are concerned: those are very awesome and as you state a part of the profession's definition.  They are, however, very difficult to balance.  It's not impossible, but, it takes a lot of finesse. Threads like this are great because they put some awesome ideas out there.  If only this were an official thread so that devs could drawn on this.

Thank you for the positive comment, I'm glad you liked the ideas in here. Unfortunately it came to mind after the official threads had closed. I'll consider posting there next time they are open once the idea has been refined more. I think the odd single target fear, or a high cost fear (long cooldown or life force cost) would be ok. It would be nice to at least get one more fear skill as they really are a bit spread. Also, stuns, knockdowns/backs and dazes are similar so I'm not sure the reason for the balance difficulties really.

[aequitaz2k]

Majigor, on 16 June 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Thank you for the positive comment, I'm glad you liked the ideas in here. Unfortunately it came to mind after the official threads had closed. I'll consider posting there next time they are open once the idea has been refined more. I think the odd single target fear, or a high cost fear (long cooldown or life force cost) would be ok. It would be nice to at least get one more fear skill as they really are a bit spread. Also, stuns, knockdowns/backs and dazes are similar so I'm not sure the reason for the balance difficulties really.

There was a rather big thread that roughly mentioned the same problems. Won't hurt to post it again next BWE though

[lelith84]

Hi guys,

Lot of people think that necromancer are a bit dull, and i think that right juste take a look a what every class can do ...
Juste looking at the weapon skill there. and u can see that necro dont have that much mechanic integrated in they re skills.


Guardians can knockdown(1) - Knockback(1) - pull(2) - launch(1) - immobilize(2) - leap(1) - teleport(1)- block(3) - sink(1) --- 13 skills.

Warrior can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(1) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - leap(4) - block(4) --- 17 skills.

Thief can daze(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - evade(5) - shadowstep(4) - stealth(2) --- 13 skills.

Ingeneer can daze(1) - knockback(2) - pull(2) - launch (1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - block(1) - reflect(1) --- 12 skills.

ranger can daze(2) - knockback(3) - stun(2) - immobilize(1) - block(3) - evade(2) --- 13 skills.

elementalist can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(3) - pull(2) - launch(1) - stun(3) - immobilize(2) - teleport(2) - sink(2) - float(1) --- 20 skills.

Mesmer can daze(2) - fear(1) - knockback(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(1) - teleport(1) - block(2) - sink(1) - evade(1) - reflect(1) - clone(8) - stealth(1) --- 23 skills.

Necromancer can daze(1) - fear(1) - pull(2) - immobilize(1) - sink(1) --- 6 skills(3 underwater).

Well we cant do much ....
I really like DS but it would be so much more fun if we have other ways to spend LF and more mechanic in ours weapon skills.

Edited by lelith84, 17 June 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[mazut]

lelith84, on 17 June 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Hi guys,

Lot of people think that necromancer are a bit dull, and i think that right juste take a look a what every class can do ...
Juste looking at the weapon skill there. and u can see that necro dont have that much mechanic integrated in they re skills.


Guardians can knockdown(1) - Knockback(1) - pull(2) - launch(1) - immobilize(2) - leap(1) - teleport(1)- block(3) - sink(1) --- 13 skills.

Warrior can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(1) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - leap(4) - block(4) --- 17 skills.

Thief can daze(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - evade(5) - shadowstep(4) - stealth(2) --- 13 skills.

Ingeneer can daze(1) - knockback(2) - pull(2) - launch (1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - block(1) - reflect(1) --- 12 skills.

ranger can daze(2) - knockback(3) - stun(2) - immobilize(1) - block(3) - evade(2) --- 13 skills.

elementalist can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(3) - pull(2) - launch(1) - stun(3) - immobilize(2) - teleport(2) - sink(2) - float(1) --- 20 skills.

Mesmer can daze(2) - fear(1) - knockback(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(1) - teleport(1) - block(2) - sink(1) - evade(1) - reflect(1) - clone(8) - stealth(1) --- 23 skills.

Necromancer can daze(1) - fear(1) - pull(2) - immobilize(1) - sink(1) --- 6 skills(3 underwater).

Well we cant do much ....
I really like DS but it would be so much more fun if we have other ways to spend LF and more mechanic in ours weapon skills.

I really like and need cc skills and the lack of it will drive me away from necro, most probably :/ And it was my main in GW1 and I like it so much more there...

PS: Your list is incomplete

[Majigor]

lelith84, on 17 June 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Hi guys,

Lot of people think that necromancer are a bit dull, and i think that right juste take a look a what every class can do ...
Juste looking at the weapon skill there. and u can see that necro dont have that much mechanic integrated in they re skills.


Guardians can knockdown(1) - Knockback(1) - pull(2) - launch(1) - immobilize(2) - leap(1) - teleport(1)- block(3) - sink(1) --- 13 skills.

Warrior can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(1) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - leap(4) - block(4) --- 17 skills.

Thief can daze(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - evade(5) - shadowstep(4) - stealth(2) --- 13 skills.

Ingeneer can daze(1) - knockback(2) - pull(2) - launch (1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - block(1) - reflect(1) --- 12 skills.

ranger can daze(2) - knockback(3) - stun(2) - immobilize(1) - block(3) - evade(2) --- 13 skills.

elementalist can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(3) - pull(2) - launch(1) - stun(3) - immobilize(2) - teleport(2) - sink(2) - float(1) --- 20 skills.

Mesmer can daze(2) - fear(1) - knockback(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(1) - teleport(1) - block(2) - sink(1) - evade(1) - reflect(1) - clone(8) - stealth(1) --- 23 skills.

Necromancer can daze(1) - fear(1) - pull(2) - immobilize(1) - sink(1) --- 6 skills(3 underwater).

Well we cant do much ....
I really like DS but it would be so much more fun if we have other ways to spend LF and more mechanic in ours weapon skills.

This is fantastic thank you so much!

[Tannet]

lelith84, on 17 June 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Necromancer can daze(1) - fear(1) - pull(2) - immobilize(1) - sink(1) --- 6 skills(3 underwater).

Well that's true. The necromancer hasn't as much Hard-CC as other classes but tons of Soft-CC

These skills aren't just weapon-skill but utility-skills too:

Blind (6) 1 underwater skill
Chill (5)  1 underwater skill
Cripple (5) 1 underwater skill
Fear (4) 1 underwater skill 1 downed skill
Immobilize (2)
Weakness (4) 1 underwater skill

I like the amount of Soft-CC on the necromancer and would dislike a higher amount of Hard-CC. In my opinion it would feel wrong.

I hope they replace the daze from warhorn with a fear. It would fit much better the classmechanic than a daze.

/edit Fear would be Hard-CC too. My bad...

Edited by Tannet, 17 June 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[Thyar]

The problem I have with listing out what other Professions can do compared to each other is how doing so often implies that all such skills are available at any time, for every playstyle, regardless of both builds and the costs for having and using them.  However, even with that said, I absolutely do not support the typical approach of those infamous people who always argue for restricting any Profession from skills, ignoring that others already have them.  

Necros have a good basic arsenal.  Death Shroud is a simple, but also an amazing, Profession mechanic.  There still remains room for improvement and refinement all the way around.  This thread has been very refreshing to read for the various suggestions about how such improvement and refinement can be accomplished.  I really like the essential idea of enabling Necros to use LF for more than just Death Shroud (note: by saying that, I am not at all suggesting that DS needs to be eliminated - I'm just suggesting that the utility of LF be expanded as a resource for strengthening and improving skills beyond DS)

I am not confident that ArenaNet is regularly reading these Forums for suggestions anymore.  Since the first BWE, their participation here has become sparse (to understate it).  Who knows, though?  Perhaps there is someone in their team who comes here and checks out this place from time to time still.  And with that slim hope in mind, it might be wise to consider posting the distillation of coherent ideas from this thread to Primordius Visions - again, on the off chance that someone "On High" might periodically poke their nose in there.

Edited by Thyar, 17 June 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Wookie4726]

Necromancer was my main in GW1 and I plan to make it my main in GW2 as I've already brought my beta Necromancer to level 35. And yes, I did find DS boring. I would like to agree that expanding the use of LF would greatly improve the functionality of the Necromancer as long as it is done correctly.

I am all for introducing additional forms of DS in the form of F1-F4 skills. F1) short range dmg, F2) long range dmg, F3) crowd control, F4) team support... or something similar. I'll leave it to the devs to flesh it out.

[mazut]

Tannet, on 17 June 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Well that's true. The necromancer hasn't as much Hard-CC as other classes but tons of Soft-CC

These skills aren't just weapon-skill but utility-skills too:

Blind (6) 1 underwater skill
Chill (5)  1 underwater skill
Cripple (5) 1 underwater skill
Fear (4) 1 underwater skill 1 downed skill
Immobilize (2)
Weakness (4) 1 underwater skill

I like the amount of Soft-CC on the necromancer and would dislike a higher amount of Hard-CC. In my opinion it would feel wrong.

I hope they replace the daze from warhorn with a fear. It would fit much better the classmechanic than a daze.

/edit Fear would be Hard-CC too. My bad...

Fear is damn underpowered, they MUST increase the duration...

[kilger]

lelith84, on 17 June 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Hi guys,

Lot of people think that necromancer are a bit dull, and i think that right juste take a look a what every class can do ...
Juste looking at the weapon skill there. and u can see that necro dont have that much mechanic integrated in they re skills.


Guardians can knockdown(1) - Knockback(1) - pull(2) - launch(1) - immobilize(2) - leap(1) - teleport(1)- block(3) - sink(1) --- 13 skills.

Warrior can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(1) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - leap(4) - block(4) --- 17 skills.

Thief can daze(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - evade(5) - shadowstep(4) - stealth(2) --- 13 skills.

Ingeneer can daze(1) - knockback(2) - pull(2) - launch (1) - stun(1) - immobilize(3) - block(1) - reflect(1) --- 12 skills.

ranger can daze(2) - knockback(3) - stun(2) - immobilize(1) - block(3) - evade(2) --- 13 skills.

elementalist can daze(1) - knockdown(2) - knockback(3) - pull(2) - launch(1) - stun(3) - immobilize(2) - teleport(2) - sink(2) - float(1) --- 20 skills.

Mesmer can daze(2) - fear(1) - knockback(2) - pull(1) - stun(1) - immobilize(1) - teleport(1) - block(2) - sink(1) - evade(1) - reflect(1) - clone(8) - stealth(1) --- 23 skills.

Necromancer can daze(1) - fear(1) - pull(2) - immobilize(1) - sink(1) --- 6 skills(3 underwater).

Well we cant do much ....
I really like DS but it would be so much more fun if we have other ways to spend LF and more mechanic in ours weapon skills.

I dont know how complete that list is but its a good start.  I know thieves also have a bunch of immobilizers too.  I'm assuming this doesnt include lich form but you should include ds where we do have a teleport.

[Xeviant]

Side-note: We cant really count under water skills...who the hell will be pvping underwater????

[Tikal]

Xeviant, on 26 June 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

Side-note: We cant really count under water skills...who the hell will be pvping underwater????

I think I read somewhere there will be an underwater (partially) sPvP map