172 replies to this topic

[HairyEgg]

UssjTrunks, on 20 June 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Any group composition will be fine for a standard run. However, there will undoubtedly be a metagame party composition for speed runs.

Oh yea but speed runs is something totally different. People may want to try and do an all Engineer run too or stuff like that too no doubt

But shouldn't have much effect on people who just want a run of the dungeon for the first time.

I do hope that this game can change some of the attitudes players have towards each other.

No doubt there will be the odd utterly stupid player who does not get the game no matter how much patience you have. I believe they will be very few and far between though. The problem is that inexperience is often written off as stupidity by many players and that is a shame.

[shanghaipha]

RabidusIncendia, on 20 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

That'll have to wait till the harry potter MMO.

Good god, Make it so.

[HumanComplex]

Politoed, on 20 June 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Since tokens aren't tradable, but one can exchange them for gear - I imagine players could ask for "catacombs armour players only".  It's actually a much better system than stones, because, as mentioned, tokens are soulbound, which means having token-gear ACTUALLY shows the player's familiarity with the dungeon.

good point, but from Colin's post it sounds like tokens are generic and are traded in for an awesome item from a pool of awesome items.what I'm getting at is that there probably isn't any "catacombs armor". There might be a thing such as "token armor", but we need more details. tokens might give players another channel to aquire a specific skin, OR a specific channel to aquire a specific skin.

lets say there was such a thing as catacombs tokens to aquire "catacombs armor", would we then need armor sets for every dungeon? we would then need to buy storage panes from the gem store just for dungeon armor reqs, leading to what could arguably be a pay-to-play scenario.

[Dominique de Lombre]

HairyEgg, on 20 June 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Oh yea but speed runs is something totally different. People may want to try and do an all Engineer run too or stuff like that too no doubt

But shouldn't have much effect on people who just want a run of the dungeon for the first time.

I do hope that this game can change some of the attitudes players have towards each other.

No doubt there will be the odd utterly stupid player who does not get the game no matter how much patience you have. I believe they will be very few and far between though. The problem is that inexperience is often written off as stupidity by many players and that is a shame.

Well said. Wish there were more like you who understood, that inexperience isn't stupidity. However, writing someone off who is inexperienced as stupid is ignorant XD. Like you said though there are those who just won't catch on lol. It's important for the inexperienced to listen. So there's fault on both sides.

[dss_live]

DUNKMASTER, on 20 June 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Which Elementalist would you prefer to take on your extremely difficult exporable Catacombs run:
Elementalist 1, who is wearing generic budget vendor gear, or Elementalist 2, who is wearing a half completed set of Catacombs dungeon armor?

You're obviously going to be biased and take Elementalist 2, and don't give me an excuse like "hurr I sensed the budget elementalists friendship energies and we used the power of love to complete the dungeon".

The first one to come along, obviously. I don't see gear as a proof of skill. Whichever of the two comes first, i'll take into my party. nd that last part, doesn't give you're "argument" (i guess) any more backing becasue it's ridiculous. Next time you respond, try to act mature.

Edited by dss_live, 20 June 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[eviator]

Experience checking is bound to happen. In WoW sometimes raid leaders verified achievements. More often they checked gear score, which partly demonstrates some level of participation in higher-level content. Truth be told if I were putting together a group with specific achievements in mind, I'd certainly want my group members to have experience that will maximize the chance of completing the achievement.

[Dominique de Lombre]

eviator, on 20 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Experience checking is bound to happen. In WoW sometimes raid leaders verified achievements. More often they checked gear score, which partly demonstrates some level of participation in higher-level content. Truth be told if I were putting together a group with specific achievements in mind, I'd certainly want my group members to have experience that will maximize the chance of completing the achievement.

I don't mind checking experience but I will not tolerate GS in GW2, in WoW your gear MATTERS, in GW2 it only means a bit! GW2 armor is mainly aesthetics, not stats (though it is a little). Armor wasn't a big deal in GW1 either, and, sure if you went on SCs or something they checked some titles or something else, but to go on a simple mission didn't matter.

Edited by mcmgw, 20 June 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[DUNKMASTER]

mcmgw, on 20 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I don't mind checking experience but I will not tolerate GS in GW2, in WoW your gear MATTERS, in GW2 it doesn't mean anything!

I disagree. If I see someone walking around in a set of Glorious Armor of Magnificence, I would assume they are both glorious and magnificent.

On the other hand, if I saw someone walking around in peasant vendor clothing, I would assume they are what they appear to be: a lowly peasant.

It doesn't matter if both sets have the same stats. Magnificence speaks for itself.

[BlueTooth]

CoffeeMug, on 20 June 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Stand in Temple of the Ages for five minutes and try to find an Underworld group.

Good luck.

UW runs are important because each person needs to pay to get into the dungeon, and every party I have ever been in, has to chip in for the CON sets used in speed runs which, costs money. All these added costs and work are investments and people want to make sure they are with a team that can work together well enough to get through the UW. Also SC groups run specific builds in order to make it "The most effective" and if one person cant hold their own, the entire party will die or wipe and you will lose the benefits of the CON set.

Dungeons are different than UW, in that you don't need to spend any money (besides armor repairs) to get into the dungeon and play.
Also the requirement of "builds" is out the window.. Being able to ping you skill set wont be needed. Sure some people might not want to have a full group of Guardians or Thieves however I ran a group of 3 guardians and 2  thieves and we did just fine. We were able to change skills and utilities in the dungeon which you can not do in GW1. So we were able to change plans or regroup when we failed, and continue on.

So far the dungeon groups I played with, certainly wanted a mix of classes, however with only a requirement of 5 people, there was actually always a shortage of players looking for a party, so we would just grab whomever was around and jumped in.

Also asking to "exchange your 200 dungeon tokens" will probably make a high majority of players not want to be in your party and will go else where.

Edit: There will probably be players who do ask for tokens or some form of item that shows progression through the current dungeon, however for the lvl 35 dungeon was not difficult at all and PUG groups rolled through it fairly easily. I do not see everyone doing that for low level dungoens, but we have yet to see how difficult the lvl 80 dungeons will be.

Edited by BlueTooth, 20 June 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Malev]

please god don't turn this into WoW

[Dominique de Lombre]

DUNKMASTER, on 20 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

I disagree. If I see someone walking around in a set of Glorious Armor of Magnificence, I would assume they are both glorious and magnificent.

On the other hand, if I saw someone walking around in peasant vendor clothing, I would assume they are what they appear to be: a lowly peasant.

It doesn't matter if both sets have the same stats. Magnificence speaks for itself.

So you want a system where people choose people for groups based on how good their armor looks? That tells you nothing about someone. There's a cash shop with skins and transmutation stones. How do I know the Robed Wealth Carmudgeon isn't some cash cow and the one that looks like a peasant knows how to actually play his class? Gear is mostly looks in this game and only minor is the stats.

[Alaroxr]

You guys are missing a key factor here.

The only requirement for these dungeons is level. This means that you have an absolutely MASSIVE pool of people to play with. Not to mention that as long as you have 4 friends you can do anything...

Even if 70% of the population (a completely and utterly unrealistic expectation) had silly requirements and looked for specific group composition, that's still 30% of the entire population that you have to choose from. In most MMOs, you don't even have 30% to choose from.

Besides, anyone who has played Ascalonian Catacombs Explorable Mode knows it's not about specific composition. When I see people saying "LF X profession with X gear!" I'll simply laugh and avoid them. All it does is show that they have no idea what they're doing.

Edited by Alaroxr, 20 June 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Zefiris]

Quote

You're obviously going to be biased and take Elementalist 2,

Why is there only one group forming, and why does this group have 2 elementalists to pick? Why doesn't one elemntalist not form their own group?

Personally, I run with competent people. Having achievements does not tell me anything about this - friends will always be able tp pull someone. Them talking like a reasonable person and generally knowing how to play does.

But then even in games where this stuff happened, I didn't have trouble with groups for nonsense like this once I started running my own groups. I'm usually done before picky groups like this even start the run. So people can do what they want. If they want to wait, their choice.

[UssjTrunks]

Alaroxr, on 20 June 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Besides, anyone who has played Ascalonian Catacombs Explorable Mode knows it's not about specific composition. When I see people saying "LF X profession with X gear!" I'll simply laugh and avoid them. All it does is show that they have no idea what they're doing.

There will be a metagame. You can be sure of that.

I don't have a problem with profession discrimination for speed runs, but gear discrimination is absurd. Someone who has run a dungeon 5 times will likely be just as good as someone who has run it 50 times. This isn't rocket science, it's a simple video game dungeon. As long as they understand the mechanics of a speed run, I don't care how many time's they've done it.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 20 June 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Malev]

UssjTrunks, on 20 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

There will be a metagame. You can be sure of that.

I don't have a problem with profession discrimination for speed runs, but gear discrimination is absurd. Someone who has run a dungeon 5 times will likely be just as good as someone who has run it 50 times. This isn't rocket science, it's a simple video game dungeon. As long as they understand the mechanics of a speed run, I don't care how many time's they've done it.

i agree, also who's to say the new guy isn't more skilled then the guy who's ran it a few times

[RabidusIncendia]

Malev, on 20 June 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

i agree, also who's to say the new guy isn't more skilled then the guy who's ran it a few times

Just statistics,  On average, one who ran something more will be more marginally more skilled, and definitely more experienced.

[eviator]

RabidusIncendia, on 20 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Just statistics,  On average, one who ran something more will be more marginally more skilled, and definitely more experienced.

Indeed. "Get out of the fire" comes to mind.

[Hawklost]

DUNKMASTER, on 20 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

I disagree. If I see someone walking around in a set of Glorious Armor of Magnificence, I would assume they are both glorious and magnificent.

On the other hand, if I saw someone walking around in peasant vendor clothing, I would assume they are what they appear to be: a lowly peasant.

It doesn't matter if both sets have the same stats. Magnificence speaks for itself.

I can only hope that there will be people who Transmute that Glorious Armor of Magnificence (or something far better) armor stats onto that peasant gear.  I would just love to see peoples faces who are like you, watching a speed run with all 'peasant gear' clothed runners.

Also, I would find it quite hilarious if there really was a peasant garb in GW2 that was already challenging to get and has the 80 stats on it.  Can always hope Anet designers have that kind of sense of humor.

[Scarlet_Blossom]

Malev, on 20 June 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

i agree, also who's to say the new guy isn't more skilled then the guy who's ran it a few times

If I know what's going to happen I'll more likely be prepared than someone who hasn't seen all the stuff yet. Even if the 'new' person has been told about what's going to happen they will not be prepared as well as someone who has seen it before.

[edan1000]

As the tokens are soul bond, I think the requirement would be the weapons, e.g. ghastly hammer.

Edited by edan1000, 20 June 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Malev]

Scarlet_Blossom, on 20 June 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

If I know what's going to happen I'll more likely be prepared than someone who hasn't seen all the stuff yet. Even if the 'new' person has been told about what's going to happen they will not be prepared as well as someone who has seen it before.

what i meant with that statement is, who's to say the guy who ran it a few times isn't a tard, maybe he's done it a few times but still just doesn't get it when we have newbie come in and is told once after standing in fire and never has to be told again

basically no matter how "experienced" they are, you never know what you're gonna get

[RabidusIncendia]

Sure but if you are trying to roll a one, which would you roll, a 4 sided die or a 6 sided die?  Both have numbers that are inferior, one just has more of them.  If it takes virtually no time to increase your chance of winning a long dungeon, people will use a filter.  (Personally don't care, not much into getting PvE skins anyways)

[Skyline Crash]

I will honestly refuse to play with idiots who ensue the trinity and prejudice. I will be maining Guardian. No I will not spec pure support and no I will NOT show you how "good" I am. You'll just have to wait and see.

[Skyy High]

Malev, on 20 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

basically no matter how "experienced" they are, you never know what you're gonna get

Anything possible, but when forming a PUG, you think probabilistically. It's more probable that a someone who's never done a dungeon before will be more of a liability than someone who's experienced and has beaten it before.

Anyway, I don't think tokens are tradeable. It's more likely that people will look for other players with at least one piece of the dungeon-appropriate armor, if they're going to discriminate in that regard. FWIW, some people will always discriminate, but even UW and FoW were at one time filled with people who just didn't care and who would form pseudo-random groups of players to do those areas (and the "pseudo" part is only because you effectively NEEDED 2 monks in order to do them). I don't think discrimination will occur based on experience for months; everyone is a noob at the beginning.

[qazqaz_34]

All this gear problem is silly . I think about this catacomb armor.
Some people level up to 80 during BWE. Yah, they probably play 24/7 but it's looks like leveling to 80 take no longer than 100 hours. We all know that you are sidekicked to zone level.
When you play you have done AC (stay with this for now) in story mode during your leveling and wait for max level with farming tokens. When you are max level you gear yourelf with 80 level karma armor and weapon, then you start farming for skins or other tokens rewards.

Only "discrimination" that i can see is searching for max level people when you want farm explorable mode.
All triats, better armor, higher stats (even downscaled) - people say that 80 scaled to 35 have higher damage than true 35. Nothing wrong with this.

Same as GW1. True game start after max level, even if you are scaling down in GW2. Full unlock is full unlock.

Edited by qazqaz_34, 20 June 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[HumanComplex]

Just because we think ungodly reqs are silly and wrong doesn't mean it won't happen. MMO history tells us that if they can be enforced they will be enforced. everyone running ToA in gw1 knows stone reqs are dumb... 10 stones or 1000 stones, the proverbial *&^% can still hit the fan, just as often. but if elitism can get its foot in the door, it takes over, and theres no going back.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, we simply don't have enough details yet; however, I just wanted to get the discussion going.

I'm sure Anet has enough foresight and wisdom gained from the madness that is the gw1 endgame to engineer gw2 into something better. They have already pointed out that fun and community are top priorities. Elitism destroys both of those goals. I'm confident that they will engineer elitism out of this token system.

Edited by HumanComplex, 20 June 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[DUNKMASTER]

Hawklost, on 20 June 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

I can only hope that there will be people who Transmute that Glorious Armor of Magnificence (or something far better) armor stats onto that peasant gear.  I would just love to see peoples faces who are like you, watching a speed run with all 'peasant gear' clothed runners

The transmutation feature doesn't change the fact that players will always be biased toward someone who is wearing dungeon armor that matches the dungeon they are trying to make a group for.

Wearing transmuted armor doesn't make you a bad player. The issue is that many people, at first glance, will probably pass you over for someone with a set of difficult to obtain dungeon gear. First appearances matter.

If you have a good guild, or a great reputation on your server, you should have no problem making and joining groups without fear of discrimination. New players and players who are guildless are the ones who are going to run into issues.

This issue could be blown out of proportion and the community might end up not caring at all about armor or titles or any of that. But the possibility is there.

[Scarlet_Blossom]

Malev, on 20 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

what i meant with that statement is, who's to say the guy who ran it a few times isn't a tard, maybe he's done it a few times but still just doesn't get it when we have newbie come in and is told once after standing in fire and never has to be told again

basically no matter how "experienced" they are, you never know what you're gonna get

Statistically speaking the experienced person is better than the new person more often than it is the other way around. There are always exception to a rule, but hoping to get someone exceptionally skilled at games in general isn't how you make a party.

[aequitaz2k]

I don't like it, but I think those "ArenaNet Points" (you get for achievements like daily quests/kills etc. etc. - they are shown in the login screen on the top right hand corner) will be used to "determine" the skill of players beforehand. Basically the more you've played the more ANP you're going to have amassed. The more you've played the better you should know the game.
Since there's no person-person trade it's difficult to show how many tokens you've earned - and well you're going to spend them anyway ... Looks can be deceiving due to the transmutation stones (I'm sure there will be players running around in the dirtiest clothes they can find and still have top stats on them ).

[Quickfoot]

dss_live, on 20 June 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

The difference is that in gw1 you could show those through player to player trading. This isn't in Gw2. How are you going to show you're tokens? Mail them? Well , then you might have had 200 tokens, but you just gave them away.



This , so much.

Even if tokens arent "mailable", has anyone tried putting dungeon tokens at the auction house? I can see people putting it on the Auction House for exorbitant prices, just so the group leader sees they have them...

Even if that is not possible, believe me. People are going to find a way. For example, a group looking for players at the next dungeon after Ascalonian Catacombs. They may ask you to show a piece of armor from there, or the full armor set or a weapon, if I made myself clear.

They will find a way to distinguish hardcorers from casuals because the whole Hardcore vs Casual Community is split by nature... They will want to play with another hardcorer, and casuals probably won't mind to have a hardcorer with them. But it's this discrimination agaisnt casuals that causes this "system" to be set up by players. If everyone wanted to play with everyone this wouldn't be an issue. This is why at GW1 at Temple of Ages, for the Underworld, hardcorers with 250+ ghastly stones can join any group they want, either 250+ only groups, or the practice ones that require no ghastly stones. If everyone was treated equally this wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunely, I can't see any MMO that this will never happen.

It's in the hands of the community. Not the devs. The devs can only make it easier to some extent.

Edited by Quickfoot, 20 June 2012 - 04:06 PM.