586 replies to this topic

[Frakov]

Current level cap is 80. Should the level cap increase incrementally as GW2 expansions are released? Does it matter?

The first Guild Wars always had a level 20 cap and it worked out for that game. But of course increasing level caps periodically has been pretty standard with MMOs and GW2 is a lot more of an MMORPG than GW1, so I think there is a lot of room for discussion on which path GW2 should take.

Here are some of my thoughts, concerns, whatever, on the subject:

1) Will the core game be updated so that players who choose not to buy the expansions can still level to the new cap in order to stay competitive in both PvE and PvP? If not, expansions could be much more of a must-buy if only to get more trait/skill points and higher level gear. If yes, would any new skills require the expansion as was the case in GW1.

2) Raising the level cap with future expansions would mean players would have to buy more transmutation stones if they like the look of their 80 armor/weapons (which could already have cost some transmutation stones).

3) A lot of things such as skills, traits, and whole classes would require rebalancing to account for the new build possibilities. This will probably mean that there will be a series of patches and complaints before classes become stable again.

I'll just start with those points as ideas for discussion, but I'd also like to hear any additional thoughts the community may have regarding the level cap. (On a side note, I think the traditional progression-via-leveling system is archaic, but that's for a separate topic).

EDIT: Added poll.
EDIT2: Slightly changed poll answers for more meaningful results. Anyone who vote "Depends," please recast.
EDIT3: Added Question 2.

Per request I've decided to include the following information here if only so there's less misunderstanding of where Arenanet currently stands on the issue. Please keep in mind that this should not stop you from expressing your personal opinions on the subject:

Mordakai said:

I think some people think that ArenaNet has stated there will not be expansions, or increased levels, when they have in fact stated the opposite.



Expansions were confirmed recently:

"According to Price, "We today know a number of the high-level features that we're going to do, and expansion content for years to come." http://www.gamezone....r-years-to-come


Increased level cap is in, last I heard:

http://www.guildwars...-in-expansions/

"Q: What of the level cap? Have you guys decided whether you're going to be increasing the level cap in future expansions?

Colin: Yeah. The level cap will be 80 on the initial release of the game, and we absolutely would increase it further into the game, probably through expansions is the most likely place we would do that."

Episode 68 Time = 58:35 [thanks Vahkris! ]


"Q: I know you guys are focused on finishing the original game but I would like to know how are you going to handle the character progress after the release? Is the original game going to have some cap set on items/attributes, just like in GW1, or will we be growing in power as the content is added (DLC, expansions) and the maximum level will increase?

A: So, the maximum level in GW2 will be level 80 on the initial release of the game. And I'm sure as we add expansion content we're going to add more progression and add more levels to the game."

http://www.guildwars...ekt-conference/



This was back in 2011, so it's possible their position has changed, but I doubt it. The very fact they raised the level cap from 20 (GW1) to 80 (GW2) proves to me the old "static level" from GW1 is gone.




It's important to note the difference between "stand-alone" expansions (Like Nightfall and Factions), which will NOT be the model of GW2, and traditional expansions where you must own the original game in order to play the expansion.

GW2 will have traditional expansions, where you need to have the original GW2 game to play.

http://www.joystiq.c...xpansion-model/

Edited by Frakov, 29 June 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[prism2525]

It might, but since gw2 is a skill-based game it would boil down to bigger numbers and nothing else. However that might be an excuse for better looking gear.

[dawnq]

I really don't care. It all depends on if they can make it work and unless they do it I wont know. Doesn't matter.

[Korra]

I always felt weird respect increasing level cap but after a while i get used to it.

On my years of lineage 2 it went from 78 to 80 then from 80 to 85 and from 85 to 99 i think, and i felt weird every time. Same will happen with gw2.

But it gets more weird when the number goes over 100.

[Windmoor]

Hmmm...interesting topic...

I think I'm leaning toward the no raise level cap.

They could add new races, areas of all levels, skills that are situational, skins for just about everything, even new traits making new builds come to light.

The down scaling is an awsome system for adding new content without the need for new levels.

EDIT: Personally I would like to see a release date before speculating on x-pacs though...

Edited by Windmoor, 26 June 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Chalky]

Korra, on 26 June 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I always felt weird respect increasing level cap but after a while i get used to it.

On my years of lineage 2 it went from 78 to 80 then from 80 to 85 and from 85 to 99 i think, and i felt weird every time. Same will happen with gw2.

But it gets more weird when the number goes over 100.

I don't think GW2 will increase the level cap by a small number like lineage does.  Guild wars 2 has a flat levelling curve - in Lineage 2, it takes as long to go from 80 to 85 as it does to go from 1 to 70.  In Guild Wars 2, every level takes the same time beyond level 20.

What I'm saying is, if GW2 raises the level cap, we'll probably be looking at them adding 60 levels per expansion.

I think that's pretty awesome to be honest.  3 expansions in and we'll have a level cap of 260.  It'll certainly be unique

[Sintel]

Class balancing is something their always working on but something as big as a level cap increase would shake things up for awhile but if the world grows, it only make sense to have your character grow with it. So my guess would be we pop the cap up...er..ten or so levels every expansion? I say ten because I'm thinking skill points.

Edit: Or maybe a heck of a lot more than ten; just saw Chalky's response, the flat leveling rate totally slipped my mind.

Edited by Tinzi, 26 June 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Zefiris]

It probably will not raise the level cap.

If it does, you can easily get max stats for your gear the moment you hit max level, so ultimately, it changes nothing and I don't care of it does.

I mean, levels in GW2 pretty much only exist to lure people that are so used to levels, they are incapable of understanding that a game can be fun without them. Levels just have no inherent meaning in GW2.

[Korra]

Chalky, on 26 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

I don't think GW2 will increase the level cap by a small number like lineage does.  Guild wars 2 has a flat levelling curve - in Lineage 2, it takes as long to go from 80 to 85 as it does to go from 1 to 70.  In Guild Wars 2, every level takes the same time beyond level 20.

What I'm saying is, if GW2 raises the level cap, we'll probably be looking at them adding 60 levels per expansion.

I think that's pretty awesome to be honest.  3 expansions in and we'll have a level cap of 260.  It'll certainly be unique

I know, those levels where a real pain in the ass QQ

Woah, i think you're right that if they add they will add lots of levels, and it will feel super weird, Hey! I'm level 260.

[Rhydian]

This is a non issue to me since I think that the level cap is designed to be raised probably for 2 to 4 expansions anyway. Just looking at the map the way it is laid out. It seems to be a progressive layout, I imagine for every new expansion what, 3 .. 4 extra zones open then 5 levels per expansion, probably 2 low to mid level areas 2 level 85 areas.  

Would like to point out this would have nothing to do with gear progression, I know some of you are fantasizing about that.

[Daisyspit]

I hope this won't turn into  a "raise the lvl cap game:" as it gets older.  Asheron's Call, which was released in 1999, is up to level 275 cap now.  Level 80 in GW2 suits me just fine ;D

[Zefiris]

Rhydian, on 26 June 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

, I know some of you are fantasizing about that.

Some people just can't handle if the game doesn't inflate their sense of self worth by gear stats. It's sad when additional numbers are considered more important than a fun game experience xD

Edited by Zefiris, 26 June 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Rhydian]

Daisyspit, on 26 June 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I hope this won't turn into  a "raise the lvl cap game:" as it gets older.  Asheron's Call, which was released in 1999, is up to level 275 cap now.  Level 80 in GW2 suits me just fine ;D

I agree I think level caps as a whole are a total waste of time, especially in a non gear progression skill based game like this.
If they do have levels they will be 90 percent cosmetic.

[dannywolt]

Chalky, on 26 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

I don't think GW2 will increase the level cap by a small number like lineage does.  Guild wars 2 has a flat levelling curve - in Lineage 2, it takes as long to go from 80 to 85 as it does to go from 1 to 70.  In Guild Wars 2, every level takes the same time beyond level 20.

What I'm saying is, if GW2 raises the level cap, we'll probably be looking at them adding 60 levels per expansion.

I think that's pretty awesome to be honest.  3 expansions in and we'll have a level cap of 260.  It'll certainly be unique

You make a good point. Large level cap increases are very likely. Even though levels aren't hugely important in GW2, zone levels are still used to control progression through the game. A significant level cap increase would allow A-Net to have greater control on progression through the expansion without resorting to additional gating mechanisms.

[Rhydian]

Chalky, on 26 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

I don't think GW2 will increase the level cap by a small number like lineage does.  Guild wars 2 has a flat levelling curve - in Lineage 2, it takes as long to go from 80 to 85 as it does to go from 1 to 70.  In Guild Wars 2, every level takes the same time beyond level 20.

What I'm saying is, if GW2 raises the level cap, we'll probably be looking at them adding 60 levels per expansion.

I think that's pretty awesome to be honest.  3 expansions in and we'll have a level cap of 260.  It'll certainly be unique

Chalky I played a game with 400 long god forsaken levels, through what can only be described as the second level of purgatory.
Personally I hope to god and all that is holy that there at best are only five to ten expansion levels.

[Craywulf]

Doesn't matter because the power plateau will not change. So there's literally going be no difference between a level 80 Elementalist and a level 100 Elementalist in terms of stats. The numerical level is going be purely cosmetic status. For ArenaNet to allow expansions to alter the power plateau, would totally wreck the balance of the game.

[TheBandicoot]

Would be interesting if you could just gain levels without having them affecting your char in any way besides showing a small number next to your characters description and / or nameplate. Those who like to level will have their grinding incentive, but those who dont want to will have no disadvantage by not doing so. A little bit necessary level pogression is fine and so i am fine with GW2´s 80 levels, but if you want to go further, feel free to reach level 9000 - won´t give you any advantage excluding a longer ePenis.

Edited by TheBandicoot, 26 June 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Guildmojo]

I hope they keep the maximum level at 80 as long as they keep the gear-progression minimal. If they plan on adding new slightly better gear in the new content then they might just as well kick the level up so you can sidekick down and keep the challenge for all 80 content.
My concern is that it will come down to, again a cash-shop question. If people have to level and also level crafting, Arena-net might sell more boosts.

Edited by Guildmojo, 26 June 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Biz]

Anet have at least 4+ options with their expansions.

1. Factions Model a.i. Not raise the level cap at all  and make all mobs and zones roughly the same level (something like 70-80 around the town(s) and 80 further away) - with temp op skills as needed.

2. Nightfall Model a.i. Not raise the level cap but give players strong permanent pve only skills/buffs to compensate somewhere half way trough the new maps.

3. Eye of the North Model a.i. - No raise but all mobs are somewhat stronger + considerably better at using their abilities, have more of them and come in mixed groups - Same permanent buffs and op pve skills for players.

4. Raised level Model - mobs are either straight up upleveld or have more skills/diversity about them - with players and items stronger to compensate.

4. "Diablo 3 model" =P or Same player level + Better Items - mobs are way stronger - you have same skills but they are now better because you have a level 85 axe in your hand (with level 80 requirement).

I don't mind either option - or a mix of them - leveling in GW2 the way it is now is there to give you something to do/grounded measure of progression coupled with slow introduction of additional game mechanics until 60 iirc.

Although sneakier mobs or mobs where you need to react differently then just wailing on would be nice. What I would definitely not want is having blatantly stronger mobs that take ages to kill because "you are not in Texas anymore..." - that is just weak game design.


p.s. Come to think of it... Why they even would need to touch the levels if they can just up-level us to the area we are in? If you are a level 80 and you come to level 85 area you will have level 5 levels of stats added to you - buffing damage output etc.

Edited by Biz, 26 June 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[Phys]

I think they will have to increase level cap, or create some different progression systems, in GW1, your progress through the campaign was basically your progression, new skills were unlocked, new elites, and new titles, all of which required you to progress through the campaign to fully access, With GW2 style, everything is based only on level.

Trait points are level based, skill points partially level based, exploration awards exp, crafting rewards exp, etc. Now they could do something slightly similar to GW1, and have you earn 1 skill point and trait point every time you level up past 80, up to whatever new max level is, but then again they could do essentially the same thing and just call it level 90, but have no stat changes, and no gear that requires +80.
Of course increasing trait points would somewhat increase your power...

Anyhow, theres many ways to handle it, but they will probably have to come up with some form of progression for expansions, and it probably needs to be EXP based, since it cant be campaign based seeing as how WvWvW is supposed to be independent of PVE.

Edited by Phys, 26 June 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Milennin]

They said they would increase level cap some time after release.

I don't care to be honest. It could stay at level 80 till the end of times and I'd be fine with it.

[Castegyre]

For the most part raising the level cap should not cause the problems in this game that it does in many others. Raising the level cap and everything associated with it in most games only exemplifies flaws in basic game design essentially destroying the relevance of older content while causing gaps between different sections of the player base, and that should not be problems we see here. So, for the most part, I don't care if they raise it or not. I think it's mostly a non-issue unless the devs stray too far from existing design.

As for the points in the OP

I will be surprised that if expansions do add to character progression somehow they do not also somehow tie directly into how characters can advance past a certain point, but exactly how no one can really say at this point. Pessimistically it will be a money grab, optimistically it will be tied to content and necessary.

The main reasons to add something like this is to give the players something to do and a way to advance. Advancement always comes with a settling in period that requires tweaking and balancing. Some devs handle it better than others, and pretty much all communities whine about it. Everyone should expect it to some extent. Whether or not some professions or abilities will become completely unbalanced has more to do with how the devs try to advance the game and how well they handle the process than anything else. There is no way to predict how that will go.

[Phys]

Castegyre, on 26 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

For the most part raising the level cap should not cause the problems in this game that it does in many others. Raising the level cap and everything associated with it in most games only exemplifies flaws in basic game design essentially destroying the relevance of older content while causing gaps between different sections of the player base, and that should not be problems we see here. So, for the most part, I don't care if they raise it or not. I think it's mostly a non-issue unless the devs stray too far from existing design.

As for the points in the OP

I will be surprised that if expansions do add to character progression somehow they do not also somehow tie directly into how characters can advance past a certain point, but exactly how no one can really say at this point. Pessimistically it will be a money grab, optimistically it will be tied to content and necessary.

The main reasons to add something like this is to give the players something to do and a way to advance. Advancement always comes with a settling in period that requires tweaking and balancing. Some devs handle it better than others, and pretty much all communities whine about it. Everyone should expect it to some extent. Whether or not some professions or abilities will become completely unbalanced has more to do with how the devs try to advance the game and how well they handle the process than anything else. There is no way to predict how that will go.

honestly the beef about unbalancing stuff never made sense to me, i dont want games to stay the same year after year, i would expect it to evolve and add new interesting things. I welcome new proffesions, skills, game types, etc.

[Bilateralrope]

Chalky, on 26 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

What I'm saying is, if GW2 raises the level cap, we'll probably be looking at them adding 60 levels per expansion.

If ANET makes an expansion that requires the base game, you're probably right. However, if ANET does what they did with GW1 and release chapters that can stand alone or be an expansion, then the new content will include lots of <80 zones for players who only own the new chapter to level in. Which won't leave much budget for >80 zones.

Good news is that downleveling means that they can throw the level 80 characters into the level 1 zones.

Raising the level is also going to require ANET to rework the trait system to accommodate characters having more points to spend. That's going to be a major mess to balance. Just adding new skills and weapons will be much easier.

Biz, on 26 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Anet have at least 4+ options with their expansions.

You forget option 5: Throw the level 80s from this chapter into the newbie zones of the expansion while relying on downlevelling to keep things interesting.
If we don't get any skill points from xp past level 80, then there is still progression: Completing skill point challenges to buy the new utility and elite skills.

[Stargate]

Chalky, on 26 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

I don't think GW2 will increase the level cap by a small number like lineage does.  Guild wars 2 has a flat levelling curve - in Lineage 2, it takes as long to go from 80 to 85 as it does to go from 1 to 70.  In Guild Wars 2, every level takes the same time beyond level 20.

What I'm saying is, if GW2 raises the level cap, we'll probably be looking at them adding 60 levels per expansion.

I think that's pretty awesome to be honest.  3 expansions in and we'll have a level cap of 260.  It'll certainly be unique

This well said! I am absolutely sure GW2 will have more levels then WOW after its first expansion! I am not sure it will have 60+ levels /expansion, but a lot! I am also confident that there will be at least slightly more poweful items and unless you have not bought the expansion you will not be able to craft max gear after expansion release. If Anet would ever release a cosmetic shit expansion then I would simply laugh and never buy it .

Edited by Stargate, 26 June 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Phys]

Bilateralrope, on 26 June 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

If ANET makes an expansion that requires the base game, you're probably right. However, if ANET does what they did with GW1 and release chapters that can stand alone or be an expansion, then the new content will include lots of <80 zones for players who only own the new chapter to level in. Which won't leave much budget for >80 zones.

Good news is that downleveling means that they can throw the level 80 characters into the level 1 zones.

Raising the level is also going to require ANET to rework the trait system to accommodate characters having more points to spend. That's going to be a major mess to balance. Just adding new skills and weapons will be much easier.



You forget option 5: Throw the level 80s from this chapter into the newbie zones of the expansion while relying on downlevelling to keep things interesting.
If we don't get any skill points from xp past level 80, then there is still progression: Completing skill point challenges to buy the new utility and elite skills.

pretty sure they said it will be actual expansions rather than stand alone, however, I dont think they will increase it in large increments, if they do choose to increase it, it would create to big of a hurdle for new players. but who can say, really there are many ways to skin a cat

[Biz]

Bilateralrope, on 26 June 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

...
You forget option 5: Throw the level 80s from this chapter into the newbie zones of the expansion while relying on downlevelling to keep things interesting.
If we don't get any skill points from xp past level 80, then there is still progression: Completing skill point challenges to buy the new utility and elite skills.

Thats what the "+" stands for =P Anyhow, it is unlikely there will be "newbie zones" - as per 2007 interviews - they said that making them for every new game they were doing was only taking away time from development of high level content. They can down-level as much as they can uplevel with out changing our gear or stats for the rest of the game.

[Gilles VI]

Quote

Q: What of the level cap? Have you guys decided whether you're going to be increasing the level cap in future expansions?

Colin: Yeah. The level cap will be 80 on the initial release of the game, and we absolutely would increase it further into the game, probably through expansions is the most likely place we would do that. http://www.guildwars...79.html?t=22279

Zefiris, on 26 June 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

I mean, levels in GW2 pretty much only exist to lure people that are so used to levels, they are incapable of understanding that a game can be fun without them. Levels just have no inherent meaning in GW2.

Exactly those people just need to get their head out of the WoW/EQ mentality..

Edited by Gilles VI, 26 June 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Trei]

The OP's first question is what I had been thinking about actually, and I was close to being convinced that players will not be allowed to level to new cap if they do not buy the expansion.

Then it hit me that it wouldn't make a damn difference .

Even if I level to the new cap, I wouldn't be able to access the new higher level lands to make full use of my extra power.
I could easily buy new max lvl crafted gear from crafters, I suppose, but I would never be able to use them to their highest potential.

All because of downscaling.

No wait, there's WvW... hmmm...
Needs more pondering.

Edited by Trei, 26 June 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Haterx732]

Zefiris, on 26 June 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

It probably will not raise the level cap.

If it does, you can easily get max stats for your gear the moment you hit max level, so ultimately, it changes nothing and I don't care of it does.

I mean, levels in GW2 pretty much only exist to lure people that are so used to levels, they are incapable of understanding that a game can be fun without them. Levels just have no inherent meaning in GW2.

Whats the difference between leveling in GW2 and WoW? Why do they serve no purpose in GW2?