586 replies to this topic

[Jetjordan]

yeah if they raise levels (and bring along with it better gear) some free trans stones would be a must I think.  I agree with Fox though, I bet Anet would give some for buying the game so you could swap up to new skins, ect...

[Safer Saviour]

Lethality, on 26 June 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

They actually stated just the opposite, that the level cap will rise in expansions.

It's really not a big deal since if you enjoy playing the game anyway, there's no bother in getting new levels... it helps that sense of progression so many of you were thankful for with the tiered skills and tiered traits. Tiered characters!

There was an awful lot of backlash against tiered skills and traits (partularly skilled traits). However, tiering skills and traits doesn't help one maxed out character become innately better than another. Arenanet has consistently sought to avoid tiered characters. The reason there's no gear grind and the reason there's a 'plateau of power' comes down to the fact that Arenanet is actively against time played meaning more than skill.

If they do add new levels (and they might well go back on their plan, as they did with dyes and potions), players who don't purchase the expansion will be able to reach the new cap for this reason.

Edited by Safer Saviour, 26 June 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[Lethality]

Safer Saviour, on 26 June 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

There was an awful lot of backlash against tiered skills and traits (partularly skilled traits). However, tiering skills and traits doesn't help one maxed out character become innately better than another. Arenanet has consistently sought to avoid tiered characters. The reason there's no gear grind and the reason there's a 'plateau of power' comes down to the fact that Arenanet is actively against time played meaning more than skill. If they do add new levels (and they might well go back on their plan, as they did with dyes and potions), players who don't purchase the expansion will be able to reach the new cap for this reason.

I have no way of knowing, obviously, but my gut tells me that since GW2 is a very different game from GW1, that a level cap/power plateau won't mean the same thing come expansion time.

If they add levels, that automatically adds stats with or without gear. And I honestly don't see a for-pay expansion with a level increase being given to those who don't buy the expansion.

I could be wrong.

[Mordakai]

Last I heard on the subject, there were multiple quotes from devs confirming levels would rise in future expansions.

http://www.guildwars...-in-expansions/

"Q: What of the level cap? Have you guys decided whether you're going to be increasing the level cap in future expansions?

Colin: Yeah. The level cap will be 80 on the initial release of the game, and we absolutely would increase it further into the game, probably through expansions is the most likely place we would do that."

Episode 68 Time = 58:35 [thanks Vahkris! ]


"Q: I know you guys are focused on finishing the original game but I would like to know how are you going to handle the character progress after the release? Is the original game going to have some cap set on items/attributes, just like in GW1, or will we be growing in power as the content is added (DLC, expansions) and the maximum level will increase?

A: So, the maximum level in GW2 will be level 80 on the initial release of the game. And I'm sure as we add expansion content we're going to add more progression and add more levels to the game."

http://www.guildwars...ekt-conference/



This was back in 2011, so it's possible their position has changed, but I doubt it.  The very fact they raised the level cap from 20 (GW1) to 80 (GW2) proves to me the old "static level" from GW1 is gone.

Edited by Mordakai, 26 June 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[Alleji]

GW2 is not gear or character-power based like most MMOs. The plateau is farther away than in GW1 (level 80), but you still reach that point relatively fast and there's no endless gear treadmill following.

Expansions definitely will not be adding stronger gear.

My hunch is that they wouldn't extend the leveling process. They would probably extend the game laterally at the level cap... add more lvl 80 areas and dungeons (possibly with higher difficulty), more item skins, more skills, new weapons, possibly more traits, new pvp arenas or modes. We might even see a new class or race.

They could also expand the game at lower levels to give us more options and I'm guessing a lot of players would be interested in leveling a new character. Using those new areas/events/skills/weapons, etc would be enough new things to make the experience fresh.

While I don't think they will do it, I don't see anything wrong with adding extra levels. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of GW's model. Yes, it makes the expansion mandatory to be competitive (more traits, while char stats get adjusted, stats of gear increase with level), but aren't expansions already mandatory for competitive play? They don't add straight up power, but they add flexibility and potential synergy between old and new skills. All it takes is one skill that's a better option than existing ones and the expansion is mandatory. EotN didn't make your monk more powerful in the sense of making numbers bigger, but it gave you cure hex.

EDIT: Oh, hmph. I guess there are dev quotes saying they will raise the cap. Still doesn't seem necessary to me...

Edited by Alleji, 26 June 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Eir]

What the obsession with ppl and levels? Cause it became standard for RPG?
or is it cause people are so ****** that they need bigger numbers to feel progression and or feel like they become better?

Its happening with other games aswell these days (look at battlefiedl 3)
What happend to Fun and selfprogression to see that you are actually improving?

The lvl 20 cap in GW1 was something amazing, also the way the did for pve with making mobs eventually higher lvl then the players to make it more difficult etc etc.

So no i rather have them not raise the lvl cap.

but as said before if im looking at the trend (also in other game types) they will.
Since it seems that most people enjoy these kinda things, but it feel to me that these ppl dont know any better anymore, its like
they cant think about a game without lvl progression, if its not there it won appeal to them. And that is amazingly sad.

[Lethality]

I'm actually waiting for a game to have perpetual levels (no cap), but not have the level figure into combat. So if you saw a levee 78 wizard, that in itself was an accomplishment.

Also to the poster above - levels come with the territory from their PnP roots, of which MMORPGs are an extension of that lineage.

[Mordakai]

Eir, on 26 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

What the obsession with ppl and levels? Cause it became standard for RPG?
or is it cause people are so ****** that they need bigger numbers to feel progression and or feel like they become better?

Its happening with other games aswell these days (look at battlefiedl 3)
What happend to Fun and selfprogression to see that you are actually improving?

The lvl 20 cap in GW1 was something amazing, also the way the did for pve with making mobs eventually higher lvl then the players to make it more difficult etc etc.

So no i rather have them not raise the lvl cap.

but as said before if im looking at the trend (also in other game types) they will.
Since it seems that most people enjoy these kinda things, but it feel to me that these ppl dont know any better anymore, its like
they cant think about a game without lvl progression, if its not there it won appeal to them. And that is amazingly sad.

Here's the truth:  Power creep in games, even MMOs, is inevitable.  Some would argue it's a basic function of any video game, as you progress through a game you usually find better weapon, armor, health or even new devices to solve puzzles.

Even GW1, with a level cap of 20, introduced PvE skills that grew in power with Ranks.  This is leveling, just without numbers above your character.



To be honest, I'd rather have an obvious sign of what relative "power" a character is at, rather than asking them to show "rank" or other obscure signs.

[Haterx732]

Eir, on 26 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

What the obsession with ppl and levels? Cause it became standard for RPG?
or is it cause people are so ****** that they need bigger numbers to feel progression and or feel like they become better?

Its happening with other games aswell these days (look at battlefiedl 3)
What happend to Fun and selfprogression to see that you are actually improving?

The lvl 20 cap in GW1 was something amazing, also the way the did for pve with making mobs eventually higher lvl then the players to make it more difficult etc etc.

So no i rather have them not raise the lvl cap.

but as said before if im looking at the trend (also in other game types) they will.
Since it seems that most people enjoy these kinda things, but it feel to me that these ppl dont know any better anymore, its like
they cant think about a game without lvl progression, if its not there it won appeal to them. And that is amazingly sad.

As far as I understand it, levels in gaming were originally made for grinding aka keeping the player playing longer. Same goes for achievements...

[Sitriel]

Usually I say "no" to raising level caps, but that is because they are usually done badly. You do not really get more of anything related to your level, you just get the same watered down to last longer. But seeing that Anet does so many things different gives me pause. As for now I reserve my judgment until a later time.

[vylettes]

I really hate raising level caps. Makes the game harder to come back to if you leave for a little while. There should be other ways to improve your character besides a level cap.

I think raising level caps is more of a subscription game type trick to get people to keep their sub open so they can put more time in leveling up!

[blackthornarrow]

i hope they dont raise it.... i want to play multiple characters lv80 is enough

[iniside]

Well I can honestly say. If they raise level cap in expansion I will quit game.

[BlueTooth]

Korra, on 26 June 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I always felt weird respect increasing level cap but after a while i get used to it.

On my years of lineage 2 it went from 78 to 80 then from 80 to 85 and from 85 to 99 i think, and i felt weird every time. Same will happen with gw2.

But it gets more weird when the number goes over 100.

Especially when the armor grades go from A to S to S80 to S85 to R90, R95 and R99. lol I guess they ran out of appropriate letters to use.

If GW2 were to up the lvl cap in expansions, they would have to come out with tiered armor and weapons as well, thus making the expansion almost P2W because you would have to pay for the expansion to get the higher tiered items. It would be a lot like WoW which I think the whole point of this game is to go against the traditional subscription based development.

[Mordakai]

iniside, on 26 June 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Well I can honestly say. If they raise level cap in expansion I will quit game.

Then you better not buy the game at all, because all indication are that the level cap will rise with expansions.

[Syncline]

Like I said to someone else who was worried about this: One, you'll be able to reskin your old gear onto newer gear, and two, you'll be able to get that new, max-level gear pretty easily with crafting and karma. It's not like you're going to be completely obsolete and it'll take you months to recover.

[Mordakai]

vylettes, on 26 June 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

I really hate raising level caps. Makes the game harder to come back to if you leave for a little while. There should be other ways to improve your character besides a level cap.

I think raising level caps is more of a subscription game type trick to get people to keep their sub open so they can put more time in leveling up!

ArenaNet is smart, and I'm sure they will have ways to catch players up.  (maybe they will re-introduce side-kicking people up levels with the expansions).


As I said: there have also been rising "levels" in Guild Wars:  they were called PvE skills.

[iniside]

Mordakai, on 26 June 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Then you better not buy the game at all, because all indication are that the level cap will rise with expansions.

I will give them a chance. I like them and believe they will quickly retreat from ridiculous idea of raising level cap.

Mordakai, on 26 June 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

As I said: there have also been rising "levels" in Guild Wars:  they were called PvE skills.

This was on whole different level. Skills were more or less equal in power different in function. Raising level cap is straight up adding power in vertical manner. I really hate leveling old character over and over again. But I don't mind hunting for skills or other challenges.

[UssjTrunks]

What's the point? It will just force us to learn new numbers in PvP (I know the formulas will be the same, but instead of 3000 being a "high stat" that number might change to 4000 now).

It also completely destroys balance in WvW because those who bought the expansion will be at a higher level than the rest.

And finally, it doesn't add any value to PvE either. Levelling is a childish method of progression. You can experience progression without levelling up.

[Aesa]

I hope they won't raise the level cap, I liked what they did with GW1 (and it's campaigns) in this regard.

[blackdown2]

I do not think that they will raise the level cap they didn't do it in the GW1 expansions and they will not do it now.

[\Nuking]

What is the point to this exactly? If the level cap is raised but not stats and no added traits, then will it do anything else than discourage leveling more than 1 toon to max? This is beyond me - i am actually quite shocked to find out about this.

[UssjTrunks]

Eir, on 26 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

What the obsession with ppl and levels? Cause it became standard for RPG?
or is it cause people are so ****** that they need bigger numbers to feel progression and or feel like they become better?

Its happening with other games aswell these days (look at battlefiedl 3)
What happend to Fun and selfprogression to see that you are actually improving?

The lvl 20 cap in GW1 was something amazing, also the way the did for pve with making mobs eventually higher lvl then the players to make it more difficult etc etc.

So no i rather have them not raise the lvl cap.

but as said before if im looking at the trend (also in other game types) they will.
Since it seems that most people enjoy these kinda things, but it feel to me that these ppl dont know any better anymore, its like
they cant think about a game without lvl progression, if its not there it won appeal to them. And that is amazingly sad.

I remember being enamoured by levels when I was a kid. Pokemon games pissed me off because they had a level 99 cap. I wanted to go up to a million. I eventually took interest in those silly browser Pokemon RPGs that had an unlimited level cap.

Looking back at that mindset, I see how ridiculous it was. The fact remains that most gamers are kids and this is why such a mentality is prevalent. Simple minds need a simple way to measure progression.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 26 June 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Kristov]

vylettes, on 26 June 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

I really hate raising level caps. Makes the game harder to come back to if you leave for a little while. There should be other ways to improve your character besides a level cap.

I think raising level caps is more of a subscription game type trick to get people to keep their sub open so they can put more time in leveling up!

I don't understand this at all.  

Would you mind explaining what makes it harder to come back from a break that leaves one facing a level deficit versus coming back facing a gear deficit?  I can understand the problem if we weren't able to group with friends because of the levels, but that problem seems to be solved in GW2.

Am I missing something that would make the level deficit more of a problem?

[Feklhar]

Lethality, on 26 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I'm actually waiting for a game to have perpetual levels (no cap), but not have the level figure into combat. So if you saw a levee 78 wizard, that in itself was an accomplishment.

Also to the poster above - levels come with the territory from their PnP roots, of which MMORPGs are an extension of that lineage.

I like that idea. Leveling seems like a leftover from the DnD days. Allbeit, leveling in DnD takes bloody forever but at those levels you get huge increases in power.

The biggest question I would have if they increase the level cap is how would it affect sPvP? It's been stated they want to make it an esport. Would they do seasons like the WoW arenas, limit it to tournaments or what?

I would expect that more levels equals more powerful gear but it doesn't necessarily mean that. It would be different than what we are used to, that's for sure.

[iniside]

Kristov, on 26 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't understand this at all.  

Would you mind explaining what makes it harder to come back from a break that leaves one facing a level deficit versus coming back facing a gear deficit?  I can understand the problem if we weren't able to group with friends because of the levels, but that problem seems to be solved in GW2.

Am I missing something that would make the level deficit more of a problem?

We already know that in GW2 won't be more powerful items than those that are on level 80 on start.
So after increasing level cap returning player must yet again level and get new gear. Not so much returning friendly.

If this would be opt to me. I would completely remove any vertical progression from game. Levels, more powerful items and so on.  And replace it with variety and more player skillful play.

Edited by iniside, 26 June 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Mordakai]

\Nuking, on 26 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

What is the point to this exactly? If the level cap is raised but not stats and no added traits, then will it do anything else than discourage leveling more than 1 toon to max? This is beyond me - i am actually quite shocked to find out about this.

Who said they won't add traits or stats?

Alts have always been popular...  levels won't change this.


I'm quite surprised that people are shocked by this...  do you think GW2 has 80 levels, tiered traits, and elite skills at level 30 on accident?


GW2 PvE is designed to be a level based game.  Expansions will increase the level.  It fits the current design!

THIS IS NOT GW1.

iniside, on 26 June 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

We already know that in GW2 won't be more powerful items than those that are on level 80 on start.
So after increasing level cap returning player must yet again level and get new gear. Not so much returning friendly.

If this would be opt to me. I would completely remove any vertical progression from game. Levels, more powerful items and so on.  And replace it with variety and more player skillful play.

Again, I'm sure ArenaNet will think of ways to catch returning players up.  If you want to remove vertical progression completely, then GW2 needs to be redesigned with a lower level cap, no tiered traits, no level restrictions on Dungeons, Gear or Skills.

Guys, please look at what GW2 is currently: It is a tiered, level based game where you gain access to more content and skills as you level.  With a relatively high beginning level cap at level 80.

Edited by Mordakai, 26 June 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Syncline]

UssjTrunks, on 26 June 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

I remember being enamoured by levels when I was a kid. Pokemon games pissed me off because they had a level 99 cap. I wanted to go up to a million. I eventually took interest in those silly browser Pokemon RPGs that had an unlimited level cap.

Looking back at that mindset, I see how ridiculous it was. The fact remains that most gamers are kids and this is why such a mentality is prevalent. Simple minds need a simple way to measure progression.

Most gamers are adults over 30.

[Korra]

BlueTooth, on 26 June 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Especially when the armor grades go from A to S to S80 to S85 to R90, R95 and R99. lol I guess they ran out of appropriate letters to use.

If GW2 were to up the lvl cap in expansions, they would have to come out with tiered armor and weapons as well, thus making the expansion almost P2W because you would have to pay for the expansion to get the higher tiered items. It would be a lot like WoW which I think the whole point of this game is to go against the traditional subscription based development.

This guy has a point.

[Zefiris]

Lethality, on 26 June 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

ArenaNet made that choice for us by including them in the first place, not to mention 80 of them to start. I think they see levels as a meaningful measure of progression this time, which I agree with.

Actually, this is mostly you wanting things to be the case that aren't the case. They stated they didn't actually want levels, but did it because players are used to it. Which makes sense, really.

And which is also why levels do matter very little.

Quote

If they add levels, that automatically adds stats with or without gear. And I honestly don't see a for-pay expansion with a level increase being given to those who don't buy the expansion.

I could be wrong.

You likely are. The esport aspect alone would simply break otherwise. Expansions will likely give characters with the expansion more options, but do not expect more power. As said: At this point, they may not even increase level or item stats even if they originally said otherwise. We don't know yet, but it's very in character for them.

We do know that it won't really matter, if there's a level cap increase, everyone will get it, people will reach it, buy the new gear at a karma vendor, and continue business as usual, even if they didn't buy the expansion.

Of course, as said, people with expansions will likely have new elites and skills, and these will matter the most, because they will open tactical options that a non-expansion player does not have. The power will stay the same, but the range of things you can do will increase by a large margin. A team of expansion characters that plays at a high-skill level will likely wipe the floor with a team of non-expansion characters seven times of ten, by using the new options and exploiting that the other team cannot take them.

This is really how ArenaNet handles stuff and is likely to continue, because it's a damn good system. It gives non-expansion players a good fighting chance, but...also incentives to just buy the damn thing. This makes an expansion feel "better" as a buy because you aren't actually forced. You could just keep playing just fine and handle the lack of options, but do you want to?

Successful F2P games work similar, really.

Quote

even MMOs, is inevitable.

Some of it is, but the extent of it can vary greatly. It all comes down to balancing.

Quote

Zefiris is talking bullshit! Anet has said that "the levelcap will absolutely increase in GW2"

Aww. *pats you on the head*