24 replies to this topic

[gobberpooper]

I was watching WoodenPotatoes' analysis of the newly revealed world map, and he brought up Lord Odran, who opened up portals all over the world and not just in Tyria. For those of you who don't know, Lord Odran is the one responsible for the portals into the Hall of Heroes(aka the Tomb of Primeval Kings). There's a description of him in the Guild Wars Manuscripts.

Spoiler

Using a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of
many souls, Lord Odran, a powerful arcanist who
specialized in the study of temporal distortions,
opened a portal that offered him access to the Mists
and eventually into the Rift itself. The spirits who
had given their lives to earn access to the hallowed
afterlife were outraged. They turned their fury upon
the intruder, attacking Lord Odran with all of their
legendary, collective might. But it had been hundreds
of years since most of the spirits had interacted with
the physical world, and none of them had ever done so
in their shadow form. As powerful as they had been in
life, they could not harm the physical manifestation of
the wizard lord—not yet. He was untouchable here in
the land of the dead, and he traveled freely through the
Hall of Heroes.


Over the years, Lord Odran learned to use the Rift to
travel across the multiverse. He opened portals on nearly
all of the different worlds, turning the Rift into his own
personal gateway. But though he was clever, the wizard
lord was himself only mortal, and eventually the spirits of
the Hall discovered a way to interact with the corporeal
world. Odran’s last physical journey through the Rift cost
him his mortal life. The wizard lord was torn to shreds
by hundreds of angry souls seeking retribution for
his trespasses.

When Odran’s mortal body died, the wards and
enchantments that kept his portals hidden failed, and
the gates to the Hall of Heroes were laid open to all
who were able to find them. The wizard lord had been
canny though; Odran knew that one day he too might be
ensconced in the Hall of Heroes, so he hid the portals in
the most treacherous locations he could find. The fear of
death, he surmised, would keep the meek at bay.

But a long time has passed, and it is clear now that the
wizard lord, like the gods before him, underestimated the
greed of men. Over time, the whereabouts of the portals
have been revealed. Though they remain difficult to get
to, there are those with enough skill and enough bravery
to reach them, and every day the numbers of intruders to
the Hall of Heroes rises.

An unending battle for supremacy rages inside the Hall.
The spirit inhabitants have taken to playing groups of
mortals against each other for sport, placing bets on
which will make it farthest and giving special aid to those
they favor. Control of the Hall itself has its rewards—and
its costs as well.

The most interesting thing here is that Odran was known for his power of temporal distortions, aka a Chronomancer. Chronomancers were supposed to be in GW: Utopia, but it was never released and Chronomancers were inherently OP and could never be balanced. So for one, Lord Odran is super OP. Being super OP usually leads to arrogance and abuse of power. Of course, he did abuse his power. He trolled the Mists by opening up portals to the Rift and traveling to/from anywhere in the world. Except the spirits couldn't touch him. Queue MC Hammer. Imagine how incredibly twisted by power he must've been to be able to access the freaking Hall of Heroes on his own as a mortal, and be completely untouchable. And then of course he got torn to shreds at one point. In the afterlife I could see him being incredibly vengeful. I can't help but think that the most powerful sorcerer, who had incredible control of the Mists, and is arrogant and twisted and now vengeful in death, is going to turn up as a huge baddie at some point.

Edited by gobberpooper, 26 June 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[LunarN]

I like the way you described it.

I think he's dead, once and for all, perhaps someone tries to take control over his former power, that would be more likely. But hey that's just my opinion.

[Amannelle]

I do hope they add some Chronomancer lore at some point. It sounded so interesting, and would really make for a unique expansion. However, I doubt we'll learn too much about Odran until after the initial release.

[gobberpooper]

I hope Odran isn't in the initial release. I don't expect anything about him to come up until very late in the timeline. It is possible he is a spirit wandering in the Mists, whose power somebody tries to control.

[Silent The Legend]

I love the final description lol

[Konig Des Todes]

Odran would not only be 450 years old, but he was killed...

If we see him, we'll see his soul.

And he's not a chronomancer because he used sacrifices to open portals whereas a chronomancer are, as their name implies, effectively time wizards.

And nothing makes him to be "the most powerful sorcerer" - he's just the first to create permanent portals into the Mists.

[gobberpooper]

Konig Des Todes, on 26 June 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Odran would not only be 450 years old, but he was killed...

If we see him, we'll see his soul.

And he's not a chronomancer because he used sacrifices to open portals whereas a chronomancer are, as their name implies, effectively time wizards.

And nothing makes him to be "the most powerful sorcerer" - he's just the first to create permanent portals into the Mists.

Right but what's to say that his soul isn't incredibly powerful?
I'm not saying he used his chronomancer powers to open the portals(though we don't know exactly what the powers of the chronomancers would have been). Also, it says he studied temporal distortions, in other words he was a time wizard.
As far as we know he is actually the only human(or any mortal creature) to create portals of any type to the Mists, let alone the Rift, besides the gods unless I'm completely missing something. I forgot how the Vortex to the Realm of Torment was created.

[Konig Des Todes]

What's to say his soul is powerful? What's to say his soul isn't going to be like any other mortal's soul? That is, if it even exists anymore. Do you think the souls of the Hall of Heroes would settle for his mortal death when he desecrated their resting place? I know I wouldn't.

I wasn't saying he used chronomancer powers to open portals.

I'm saying he wasn't a chronomancer. Huge difference.

And temporal distortions isn't time. It is the overlapping of dimensions (in layman's terminology) which can include time, but that's not the sole aspect, or even main aspect, to it - at least as far as I'm aware. A physicist like drax would probably be able to more accurately describe the term's meaning.

As to portals to the Mists... well, there's four asura gates in Lion's Arch which lead into the Mists. The Door of Komalie's origins are unknown, but appear as a rip in space, so to speak, in my opinion and could be mortal made. Mouth of Torment was created by Varesh, but only because it was a weakened space between Tyria and the Realm of Torment thanks to being where Abaddon fell. But she also opened portals at Gandara and Sebelkeh Basilica, however those were not permanent like Odran's and the Mouth of Torment.

And nothing actually says Odran was a human, btw.

But if Odran was ever going to be an enemy, I think he'd have been one already in GW1.

[gobberpooper]

Konig Des Todes, on 26 June 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

What's to say his soul is powerful? What's to say his soul isn't going to be like any other mortal's soul? That is, if it even exists anymore. Do you think the souls of the Hall of Heroes would settle for his mortal death when he desecrated their resting place? I know I wouldn't.

I wasn't saying he used chronomancer powers to open portals.

I'm saying he wasn't a chronomancer. Huge difference.

And temporal distortions isn't time. It is the overlapping of dimensions (in layman's terminology) which can include time, but that's not the sole aspect, or even main aspect, to it - at least as far as I'm aware. A physicist like drax would probably be able to more accurately describe the term's meaning.

As to portals to the Mists... well, there's four asura gates in Lion's Arch which lead into the Mists. The Door of Komalie's origins are unknown, but appear as a rip in space, so to speak, in my opinion and could be mortal made. Mouth of Torment was created by Varesh, but only because it was a weakened space between Tyria and the Realm of Torment thanks to being where Abaddon fell. But she also opened portals at Gandara and Sebelkeh Basilica, however those were not permanent like Odran's and the Mouth of Torment.

And nothing actually says Odran was a human, btw.

But if Odran was ever going to be an enemy, I think he'd have been one already in GW1.

No I know, but I'm saying that just because he didn't use powers that are obviously related to chronomancers doesn't mean he's not a chronomancer.
A temporal distortion is a warping of space-time, generally transcending across multiple dimensions. Manipulating time would fall under this category, according to Star Trek.
From what I remember, those gates in LA were possible because Balthazar opened up portals. Wasn't Varesh using Abaddon's powers to perform her rituals? My understanding was that those rituals were allowing very tiny portions of Abaddon's powers to seep into the world

[Konig Des Todes]

And Star Trek holds accurate terminology... gotcha. Thing is, "temporal distortion" changes in its specific meaning based on the fictional work, but the main point is effectively a "tear in space." Time is only an option, but it's dimension or space that's the requirement.

As to him being a chronomancer... chances are he's not, seeing how he existed before chronomancers did in lore and even now chronomancers don't exist in lore.

In the Movement, Balthazar opened up a single portal. However this lore seems to have been retconned as those asura gates exist where the arena seen in Edge of Destiny was, so it's not (directly) related to the portal Balthazar made - and more than likely it was retconned as Balth opening a portal made all kinds of no sense, tbh.

As to Varesh's rituals, it's questionable. She uses ancient rituals that were on a scroll in Fahranur, but I don't think it's ever said she's channeling Abaddon's power. She's opening it into his realm so you can probably see it as a portal that's being opened from both ends (possibly), but I don't think there's any "channeling Abaddon's power" stated. May be wrong.

[draxynnic]

Yeah, "temporal" does refer to time. They can get mixed up in science fiction because according to relatively, space and time are mixed up, so a distortion in one usually leads to a distortion in the other. However, that may or may not be the case in Guild Wars.

However, I'd say that Odran could simply have been a mesmer (albeit one ahead of his time) - they're the ones now generating portals and time warps, after all. This may be due to a merging with chronomancers, but with the way the bloodstones are set up, if such mergings are possible it basically means that they were two sides of the same coin all along.

Regarding the spirits in the Hall of Heroes being unable to harm Odran - that had little to do with Odran's power and more to do with the spirits simply not having figured out how to harm corporeal beings. Once they did work that out... then Odran met his fate. (I'm not convinced the spirits would have then gone to tear apart his soul, though - the insult was a living being within their realm, they may have been willing to accept him once he was one of them.)

[The Greyhawk]

Ordan is simply a old piece of lore that honestly didn't effect gw1.  Most of the player base doesn't even know about him and as far as I remember, there isn't any in game mention of him.  We only really know about him via the Prophecies booklet.

And Konig is right, this lore was written before even Proph came out, much earlier then the abandoned concept of the chronomancers.

Admittedly I'd have liked to have seen some more about him take place in gw1, but GW2 is a different ballpark, he's no longer relevant.

[Konig Des Todes]

Odran was only relevant in GW1 due to the portals to the Mists he made - of which we know of 1 being his (Tomb of the Primeval Kings), and one possibly still existing (Tomb of Drascir). Considering his portals were in the "hardest to get places" I doubt the Drascir one remained beyond the alpha. And we got nothing indicating that the Battle Isles one was his work.

Odran's a mere footnote in lore, little more important than Desmina or Sara.

[Kyln]

I don't know, I think Odran is pretty awesome, and being connected as he was to the opening of the mists for mortals in the first place, I would venture the opinion that he is more than a mere footnote. At the very least, there are possibilities for adding to his story.

[Konig Des Todes]

There's always a possibility of adding onto stories - even to Abaddon's story despite him being dead and gone. What I meant was that currently Odran is a mere footnote of little mention or importance.

[gobberpooper]

If he were involved in the story, there's a lot of potential. I mean his control and understanding of the Mists is only outmatched by the gods as far as we know. As we've discussed, very few people have been able to open portals to the mist. But nobody other than him was able to get to the Rift. Also, we don't know anything about the Hall of Heroes in GW2 currently, and he was the one responsible for allowing any travel to it in the first place.

[Flaming_Foxx]

I'm sorry but I don't think it ever mentions him having "control" over the mists. He figured out how to create portals into the mists and was eventually killed by the spirits within who he had sacrificed for his rituals...
Whilst Anet has used ghosts heavily in the past, I don't personally think they would bring him up in an antagonistic way.

Also, I see absolutely no justification for him wanting to fight us? There is nothing to suggest that he would be anywhere near the most powerful spirit within the mists either.

[The Greyhawk]

Actually, Flaming Foxx, he was killed by the spirits who inhabited the Hall of Heroes.  He's presence, as a living being that hadn't eared the right to walk in the Hall, was a grave insult to them.

[Konig Des Todes]

As Flaming Foxx said, he had no control over the Mists.

He was just the first living mortal to traverse them.

Except the norn havrouns, kodan Voices, gods (let's face it, they aren't immortals), demons, forgotten, human ancestors (brought by the gods from through the Mists), etc. etc. etc.

And what understanding? Nothing said he knew anything about the Mists - at least no more than your average norn havroun who are able to traverse the Mists with the Spirits of the Wilds' help. He just knew how to open portals to and from the Mists (and from the Mists isn't that hard, seeing how the Rift which he traveled through a lot (as it contains the Hall of Heroes) is basically a portal hub, able to easily connect to any time and place).

gobberpooper, on 27 June 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

But nobody other than him was able to get to the Rift.

You mean nobody other than him and everyone sanctioned by the Zaishen or ghosts of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings. Nobody except the hundreds if not thousands of combatants who fought for honor and glory within the Hall of Heroes (which, as mentioned, is in the center of the Rift) until the rise of Zhaitan (come to think of it, why was a portal in Lion's Arch necessary when Zhaitan rose, considering there's the portal in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings - sure, it was corrupted by Abaddon, but he's been dead for 100 years since then... unless it is/was still contested by demons at that point in time).

And if my theory of the Realms of the Gods being part of the Rift is correct (and it seems highly likely given the evidence which I can provide if requested), nobody but those people and all the adventurers who went into the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, and Realm of Torment. Which lore surrounding Dhuum's return and Godslost Swamp make sound to be a lot of people (especially assassins).



What's interesting to note is that the Rift is said to be a place with no true passage of time, thus if one is able to master the perspective of passing time they could travel through time. That is, I would assume the situation is that people go to the time they want, however due to the perspective of time constantly passing, even if it doesn't really, then you will instinctively leave however much time you perceive as having passed (e.g., take a watch into the Rift and although time's not passing, the watch keeps going, and when you return with the watch, the time of the watch matches the time you return, even though you're capable of leaving the Rift before you even entered it).

If Odran managed to do this, we could see him alive during one of his journies. Would be funny and we could say "aren't you dead?" "dead? Nonesense!"

[gobberpooper]

Konig Des Todes, on 28 June 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

As Flaming Foxx said, he had no control over the Mists.

He was just the first living mortal to traverse them.

Except the norn havrouns, kodan Voices, gods (let's face it, they aren't immortals), demons, forgotten, human ancestors (brought by the gods from through the Mists), etc. etc. etc.

And what understanding? Nothing said he knew anything about the Mists - at least no more than your average norn havroun who are able to traverse the Mists with the Spirits of the Wilds' help. He just knew how to open portals to and from the Mists (and from the Mists isn't that hard, seeing how the Rift which he traveled through a lot (as it contains the Hall of Heroes) is basically a portal hub, able to easily connect to any time and place)
.
You mean nobody other than him and everyone sanctioned by the Zaishen or ghosts of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings. Nobody except the hundreds if not thousands of combatants who fought for honor and glory within the Hall of Heroes (which, as mentioned, is in the center of the Rift) until the rise of Zhaitan (come to think of it, why was a portal in Lion's Arch necessary when Zhaitan rose, considering there's the portal in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings - sure, it was corrupted by Abaddon, but he's been dead for 100 years since then... unless it is/was still contested by demons at that point in time).

And if my theory of the Realms of the Gods being part of the Rift is correct (and it seems highly likely given the evidence which I can provide if requested), nobody but those people and all the adventurers who went into the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, and Realm of Torment. Which lore surrounding Dhuum's return and Godslost Swamp make sound to be a lot of people (especially assassins).



What's interesting to note is that the Rift is said to be a place with no true passage of time, thus if one is able to master the perspective of passing time they could travel through time. That is, I would assume the situation is that people go to the time they want, however due to the perspective of time constantly passing, even if it doesn't really, then you will instinctively leave however much time you perceive as having passed (e.g., take a watch into the Rift and although time's not passing, the watch keeps going, and when you return with the watch, the time of the watch matches the time you return, even though you're capable of leaving the Rift before you even entered it).

If Odran managed to do this, we could see him alive during one of his journies. Would be funny and we could say "aren't you dead?" "dead? Nonesense!"

All the people getting there through the Tomb of Primeval Kings are only getting there through his portal that he created. How many people can create those portals and keep them open permanently? None besides the gods. I would consider that powerful. People get to the Underworld etc by the gods taking them there.

[Flaming_Foxx]

The Greyhawk, on 28 June 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

Actually, Flaming Foxx, he was killed by the spirits who inhabited the Hall of Heroes.  He's presence, as a living being that hadn't eared the right to walk in the Hall, was a grave insult to them.

Ahh my bad. Minor mistake though

[Sirius]

I'm not sure whether the first post was being tongue in cheek with this, but the "OP" part is using out-of-universe game balancing details to make inferences about in-universe lore. Chronomancy isn't inherently massively powerful if there are limits on what you can do with it; D&D 3.5e manages to make Time Stop not an auto-win button without making it not actually stop time. The issue is that it tends to break multiplayer games, because you can't actually alter time for some people but not others in a game without doing it in real life (which for the time being is impossible). The workarounds either tend to either be kinda griefy or limit the scope of the class. (With some creativity you might be able to probably put together enough time-themed skills that didn't actually need to change a player's perception of time to work though.)

Yes, if you could stop or reverse time indefinitely, you would be effectively untouchable by almost any conceivable foe. In most game universes, though, magic users don't get to use infinite magic.

Edited by Sirius, 28 June 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

gobberpooper, on 28 June 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

All the people getting there through the Tomb of Primeval Kings are only getting there through his portal that he created. How many people can create those portals and keep them open permanently? None besides the gods. I would consider that powerful. People get to the Underworld etc by the gods taking them there.

Considering Odran figured out how to do it, it's more than just "none besides the gods."

He found out a trick, that makes him smart, not powerful.

By the way, claiming only the gods can open permanent portals is fallacious in of itself because nothing really shows that to be the case. The sole portal which was known to exist for over 100 years and was opened by a god seems to have been retconned out (the one in LA was replaced by 5 asura gates it seems).

So what portal is "indefinitely open" and opened by a god?

Door of Komalie? Source unknown.
Battle Isles? Source unknown.
Mouth of Torment? Duration unknown - it could have closed with Abaddon's death (just like Odran's wards), and technically it was opened by a human with a god's backing so not by a god anyways.
Tomb of Drascir? Continued canonocity (beyond GW1 alpha) unknown.
Godslost Swamp portals? Able to be destroyed, but are re-opened by creatures.

So.... what portal are we referring to?

The only thing we're given indication of being a permanent portal other then Tomb of the Primeval Kings is the Door of Komalie (if it can be closed, why did the mursaat insist on an ethereal door powered by souls?) and the "Eternal Portal" seen in Blackroot Cut - source unknown.


It seems to me that what's needed more than being a "powerful spellcaster" is best described by a common phrase: Location, location, location. Godslost Swamp, due to being a place of constant traversal between Tyria and the Mists, became weakened to the Mists - the two places became close. Same situation with Mouth of Torment, effectively, as well as that little odd circle of stones in Varajar Fells in the Far Shiverpeaks - all being places where Tyria is "close" to the Mists. I'd say that, given the appropriate spell, one could create a permanent portal there relatively easily.

Seemingly, a necromancer did such at/around Godslost Swamp, or at least a strong enough portal that the necromancer who made the portal couldn't close it. Wouldn't doubt that's the source of the "Eternal Portal" in Blackroot Cut, since for location the only thing going off of is the location of a journal.

[draxynnic]

Konig Des Todes, on 28 June 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

As Flaming Foxx said, he had no control over the Mists.

He was just the first living mortal to traverse them.

Except the norn havrouns, kodan Voices, gods (let's face it, they aren't immortals), demons, forgotten, human ancestors (brought by the gods from through the Mists), etc. etc. etc.

The distinction here is that most of those entities are either beings of the Mists themselves (demons and probably the gods) or entered the Mists through the aid of another entity (havrouns, Voices, forgotten, humans in the past and in GW1). Odran was the first to figure out how to do so purely through his own arts. (Incidentally, it's probably worth noting that the spirits seem to have accepted mortal visitors now, treating it more as a source of potential entertainment than trespass.)

[Konig Des Todes]

My point was that the only thing that makes him special is his portals.

Not power.

Not knowledge of the Mists.

Just portal creation.