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Mesmer feedback from BWE2

Suggestions Feedback Mesmer Rework

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#1 Xrylene

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 06:07 PM

I'm pasting this here from the thread I made on the subject on the official Guild Wars 2 forums during the second beta weekend event. It's a long, but comprehensive look at issues and some ways to fix them for the Mesmer. Anyone is open to use and critique these ideas. Also, if anyone can inform me if this forum can use spoiler tags, and if so, how to do them, that would be appreciated, as that would really help condense this down.

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I’ll start by saying this. Mesmer is my favourite profession, and none compare to that spot for me. I love illusionists and enchanters, as well as spellblades, and the Mesmer seems to feel like all of them. However, the lack of refinement is incredibly clear, and thus the Mesmer, along with the Engineer, clearly need more work than any other profession before release, and numbers will not be enough to fix all of the baseline mechanical issues in each. I will warn you, it is by no means a light read, but please don’t let that dissuade you, I am trying to pour everything I can into ensuring the Mesmer becomes the best it can be on release, and there is a lot to cover.

Core Mechanics:

Shattering:

So first off, Shatters as a core mechanic. There are now many threads suggesting to differentiate from this and go another route, and I have to say, I agree fully. Shattering is not a good mechanic to force the profession into using, if it is to stay, I highly recommend it is moved to traits and utility skills. There are many issues with it how it stands, but one of the main ones, is that currently it is not fun to do nor is it synergistic with the profession, and it’s existence as a core mechanic limits the variety that Mesmers can employ.

For the Shatter skills themselves, there is a clear issue with cooldown and level of power between them, as well as usefulness. Mind Wrack suffered a huge hit on it’s damage from last BWE to this one, and while I didn’t focus on Mind Wrack like some did, the current damage hardly makes it worth it. Cry of Frustration also doesn’t seem particularly worth it, especially in PvE due to how confusion works, but still true in PvP. I also fail to understand why it needs to have twice the cooldown of Mind Wrack, despite arguably being worse in most respects, if it’s meant to be an option for condition damage builds it would make more sense for them to have an equal cooldown if anything. Diversion is pretty awful due to it’s cooldown, other daze skills seem to have a third of it’s cooldown and don’t require you to sacrifice illusions to use it, as well as tending to come out faster leading to actual interrupts, not waiting for your illusions to close the distance. Distortion seems to be the only good Shatter skill at this point, and that’s only because mobile invulnerability of up to 3(maybe 4 with Illusionary Persona) seconds is very good, even on a 60 second cooldown.

Now for the problems with using the Shatter skills. First off, there is the obvious issue of making this profession reliant on AI pathing, Necromancer and Ranger are the two other professions who have to deal with it, however, Necromancer can completely ignore minions as they come from utilities, while Ranger has some direct control of their pets, and can pretty much ignore them completely and build to work without them. For a Mesmer to try to do that seems counter intuitive, due to how Phantasms and clones interact.

The fact that phantasms are shattered as well as clones makes the Shatter mechanic pretty much useless to any phantasm based build, which already suffers from enough issues with AI as it is. There’s also the fact that the Mesmer seems balanced with the idea of constant Shatter use in mind, which is one that I can’t say I like.

Suggestion on Core Mechanic:

Basically, here’s what I suggest, which is somewhat inspired by another person’s thread on changing the mechanic, but also something I’d though about a bit before. Instead of making swap a specific function of Illusionary Leap, why not give us F1, F2, and F3 as buttons to swap with clone 1, clone 2, and clone 3, represented by the pink circles that light up for a clone. Each clone could be given an icon over their head that only the Mesmer/maybe their team as well could see, showing a pink circle with a 1, 2, or 3 in the middle respectively. There could also be appropriate icons on the minimap, allowing the Mesmer to keep tabs on exactly where all of their clones are. Each use would consume the clone you were swapping to, making it obvious that you did it(at least normally) but still forcing them to find the real Mesmer again. F4 could very easily be the Decoy skill, moved from being a utility to being an alternative to swapping, for when losing your target is more important than raw repositioning.

Done this way, you could have swapping on a global cooldown, or a short global cooldown and a cooldown for each one. think like a five second global cooldown, 30 second actual cooldown. With traits, you could add effects like leaving a clone behind where you were instead of just consuming one, creating a shatter type effect, that sort of thing. I’d suggest also adding one second or even half a second of Distortion when you swap to allow it to still be useful in melee as damage avoidance, it could be a trait, but it’d probably be too obvious of a choice anyway.

Now, along with that, Phantasms would be distinguished from clones, thus allowing them to have a fair amount of power since they aren’t designed for misdirection in the first place, and they can also act as utility skills, much like the current Phantasmal Defender and Disenchanter. This allows Phantasms builds to work with the class mechanic, and doesn’t force clone factory builds to work with it either, though clone factories may become less necessary. This also works so much better with what the Mesmer’s playstyle is, which is to be incredibly elusive. Regardless of whether you play melee or ranged, or even support, being elusive and being able to reposition can benefit you. And by making their core mechanic strictly a defensive one, rather than being a source of their damage, you can afford to tweak regular skills, clones, and phantasms to deal more damage, possibly weakening a few defenses to keep the trade even.

I know that you guys are getting far into development and want to avoid drastic changes, but I very strongly urge you to do something like this. It will retain the Mesmer feel while restricting them less, and making them far less reliant on gimmicky shatters, which is especially important in PvP situations, particularly WvW, while also aiding them in PvE, which is a common complaint. If you still feel the need to include shattering skills, why not incorporate them into utilities, allowing someone to have a shatter build, which would keep a clone factory Mesmer useful, without being a requirement for all Mesmers? Since the swapping mechanic can cover Distortion, you could then retain Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion, just tweaking them to make them work as a utility instead, while putting Distortion in the healing skill slot, probably replacing the mirror skill because it’s not that good at the moment. This allows you to ADD things to the profession, without really taking things away. A good trade, I’d think.

Confusion:

Confusion as a condition, I think is unfortunately a failure. It seems like no matter what you do, it will be impossible to balance, either doing so little that it’s worthless(particularly in PvE), or doing so much that it’s basically a 5 second daze or die, neither of which are really options for the opponent. I think Poison, Burning, and Bleeding have their place, but Confusion as it is, is simply a bad idea to begin with. There’s that and, it’s currently difficult to get much out of it anyway, due to the difficulty of stacking it to sufficient levels, so if it were modified, it would be missed in flavour only, not effectiveness.

Confusion Suggestion:

So the question then becomes, what should the core condition(or boon) of the Mesmer be? Perhaps Confusion could remain in name, and act similar to Poison, perhaps even an effect like poisoning the targets mind, and like Poison, dealing damage, but also another effect. For example, it could deal damage over time(less than Bleeding or Burning though) and cause the enemy to deal less damage, similar to Weakness(or like an inverse Might?), but without the endurance regeneration effect. By doing that, or at least a similar effect, you make it much easier to balance for both PvP and PvE, with no high or low ends for it, as well as making it duration based rather than intensity based.

Skills:

Weapon Skills:

The weapon skills of the Mesmer are also something I feel needs some work, with some being simply too powerful, and others simply not useful enough. There’s also the issue of Phantasms, if the above types of changes were considered, it might be better to put Phantasms as utility skills instead of as regular weapon skills, which does also of course open up the question of which Phantasms effects are important to retain as utilities, and what the skill should be instead on the weapon.

Main Hands:

Sword: The main hand sword is pretty much perfect for the Mesmer as is, the only thing that needs tweaking is of course the bug on Illusionary leap needs to be fixed. While at first glance the swap skills I suggested above would seem to make this skill redundant, I don’t think it’s a major issue, the sword will need a clone skill regardless and it does act as a gap closer. If it was found to be too redundant, you could always remove the swap part of it entirely and strengthen the clone a bit, allowing you to use one of your swaps as a gap closer instead, but retaining a similar effect.

Scepter: The scepter still honestly needs some work. The first skill is fine, but could probably use slightly higher damage, as it’s one of our only options for ranged use and it is rather slow to compensate for clone creation. The second skill, the block, could also use something, while it’s mostly fine and I would not suggest removing it by any means(particularly because of it’s combination with an offhand sword), I would suggest adding a damaging counterattack to the skill that can hit at range, it wouldn’t even need to deal a lot of damage, but it would make the skill feel more rewarding. Confusing Images needs a shorter windup, but otherwise would be fine, and with the version of Confusion that I proposed, instead of stacks of it, of course it would give a duration, requiring the full channel to get the full duration.

Offhands:

Sword: Similar to the Scepter, I’d suggest adding a damaging counter to the skill as well. The Illusionary Swordsman would instead become a clone that would apply vulnerability similar to how the clones used to act when they copied your Mind Gash.

Pistol: The pistol would probably require the most changes, Illusionary Duelist of course would need to not be a phantasm, it might apply confusion on it’s attacks. Trick Shot is simply ridiculous as a regular skill, it should Daze rather than stun, and be used as an interrupt more than anything. Think something like, each hit of it applies confusion, first hit is a 2 second daze, second hit is a 1 second daze, third hit is a blind.

With those changes to the pistol and offhand sword, it also makes them well suited to being used with the mainhand sword and scepter respectively, while still obviously having use if you mixed and matched.

Torch: The Prestige is amazing, don’t change it, but the phantasm on it’s second skill would need to be changed to a clone, I’d say let it act as a ranged vulnerability attacker instead.

Focus: The wall effect could probably use a damage effect for enemies crossing it, possibly confusion rather than raw damage. The phantasm would be replaced by a melee clone that would apply confusion and block attacks, allowing you to position yourself between the clone and the target as cover.

The tweaks to torch and focus are partially intended to give options for ranged raw damage and melee condition damage, giving some build variety.

Two Handed:

Greatsword: The greatsword needs a bit of work, if only to make it not completely boring to use. I’m not sure what to suggest to do with the Spatial Surge, if anything, but it may need a bit more damage for how obvious it is. Mirror Blade is mostly fine, however I’d suggest having the blade return to where you were when you cast it before making the clone, that way you can generally predict where it will be and the clone can take advantage of range for it’s damage. Mind Stab is mostly fine, but could use a faster cast time. The phantasms on the fourth skill should be a clone, still causing cripple on it’s attacks, but being ranged. Illusionary Wave seems to be fine. Regardless of what I’ve said on this weapon, I’m really not sur eon how to make it more fun, so I’ll leave that to you guys.

Staff: Ah the staff, great weapon, but entirely too random. For Winds of Chaos, it should apply confusion and one stack of vulnerability per hit to enemies, and allies should receive fury and one stack of might per hit. Feigned Escape is perfect as it is, as is Illusionary Warlock, though it should be a clone, not a phantasm. Chaos Armour should apply confusion to them and a very brief blind, and while it’s active it should apply protection to you, and regeneration when you are hit. Chaos Storm should apply confusion and cripple to enemies, and regeneration and swiftness to allies. If you do that, the staff ceases to be random while still having the exact same feel. With those changes, I’d actually consider to be a very good weapon set.

Utility Skills:

Phantasms: Since I talked about moving Phantasms to utility slots, we should of course figure out what phantasms are important to retain as their own skill. Illusionary Warden is unnecessary due to the clone version working fine, and Mirrored feedback existing, Phantasmal Berserker was relatively useless and a ranged clone with the cripple effect covers that nicely, Illusionary Swordsman wasn’t special in any way, the Illusionary Mage could be kept in some form as condition phantasm, , Illusionary Duelist could probably remain as a high damage ranged phantasm, Phantasmal Defender could still be useful, and Phantasmal Disenchanter definitely has it’s place.

So we’re left with Illusionary Duelist, Mage, Defender, and Disenchanter, a fair grouping of phantasm options. Out of these, Duelist would be raw damage, Mage would be inflict confusion for condition damage, Defender would be good for survivability, and would counterattack attacks made against you, and Disenchanter would be similar to a constant Null Field, but with a weaker effect in exchange for dealing damage.

On a different note, but still related to utility skills, I’d suggest that Signet of Inspiration be made less random. I suggested this before, but it could be context sensitive, granting swiftness out of combat, might and fury in combat if you are above half health, protection and regeneration if you are below half health, granting both in each of those cases, though not for a long duration. It would still proc every ten seconds, it’s just that with this, it’s not random, and is more useful to what you are currently doing. Some kind of timer on the signet icon would also be really nice to know when to expect our next boon. With the changes from Shatters to swaps/decoy, the Signet of Illusions could instead refresh that set of skills. Also, obviously Decoy would be removed, due to it being the new F4. Mimic is currently pretty bad, it could use a lot of improvement or simply be removed.

Elite Skills:

Moa Morph: Put simply, get rid of it. This is not a good skill at all, it would be better to retain it as a part of a quest(similar to the pig or snow leopard quests) or an environmental, like the wand of Moas or something. As a class skill, while funny, it is too powerful of a disable, it obviously won’t work on bosses in a PvE scenario, and in PvP it is anti-fun for the opponent. I’d advise finding a replacement that actually fits with how Mesmers work, Illusion of Life would probably make sense as an elite skill to be honest, so it could replace this.

Mass Invisibility: This skill is great and all, but it seems to be basically the exact same as the Veil of Invisibility utility skill. Perhaps a short swiftness effect on it as well would make it more clear that this is an ELITE skill, not a glorified utility skill. Cooldown could of course be adjusted to be appropriate.

Time Warp: Easily the best elite skill at the moment, no issues with it, except it may or may not shorten the effect of distortion on Blurred Frenzy due to shortening the attack duration, not certain on this, but if it is true it should be fixed.

Traits Lines:

My opinion on the trait lines this time around isn’t as solidified, as I don’t know what the exact changes were to them, and can’t say what is too good or not with the new trait tiers, though I will say that I hate the current implementation of them. I’d really prefer at this point if we could have two selections per tier, basically adding minor traits into the pool, and changing that slot into one where you can select like a major trait. That would at least make me feel a bit better about what i can customize.

The only trait line I have a real issue with is the Chaos trait line. As before, I and many players HATE RNG in this, things should have clear effects always, especially for PvP. The traits of note, and what I’d suggest to do to fix them are as follows:

Bountiful Interruption: This needs to have a clearcut boon associated with it. Because it’s offensive, and interruptions are hard to ensure, I’d suggest making it either might or fury, but make it always be the one that you pick.

Chaotic Interruption: Same idea, because vulnerability is covered elsewhere, confusion is probably a good idea.

Debilitating Dissipation: Apply vulnerability when clones are killed I guess? Confusion is covered already.

Retaliatory Demise: Retaliation, much like the old confusion, is not a good idea, and in it’s current iteration simply sucks and will never help you ever. In this case, just apply confusion to any enemies that attack you while you’re downed.

Reviver’s Retribution: Same idea, but how about a short Chaos Armour? At least that would be useful.

Mesmer Downed State:

Simply put, the Mesmer downed state SUCKS. in PvP, you can’t actually interrupt enemies, and in PvE you don’t tend to be able to fight back properly.

Mind Blast, or whatever the first skill is called, would be fine if it applied the new version of confusion, at least then it’s still useful against slower attackers and still damages enemies who try to finish you.

The Illusionary Rogue is a great idea in theory, but he attacks so slowly that the blind doesn’t matter. I heard from a friend of mine that he might actually daze now, if that’s true, at least we get an interrupt now, which is good. I’d suggest making it so that he attacks once the instant he spawns, so that there’s no windup, but otherwise it’d then be fine.

The teleport is awful, I have literally never been saved by it, and the thief one is far better. I like the idea other people are throwing around of allowing you to teleport away with a short stealth and leave behind a downed clone to confuse your enemies. THAT would actually be useful to save yourself.

Conclusion:

Now looking at all of what I have to say, it probably looks to you like I’m not appreciative of the Mesmer, or don’t know how to play it, but it’s anything but either of those. I really did enjoy the Mesmer, and it will be my main forever, but I’m also a critical person, I notice flaws easily, and this is beta, the best time to fix all of those flaws and turn it into a masterpiece.

Mesmer is an advanced profession, similar to the Engineer and Elementalist in my opinion. It is complex, and should feel rewarding. if people want to use trickery and misdirection, the Mesmer should be that profession, and I feel these changes would really help solidify their image into what they could be. These changes remove randomness, open up more build options, and allow true misdirection as a base part of the profession, rather than the misdirection only being in the lore, allowing it to be the core of their gameplay. As always, I leave numbers to you, but these are the sorts of ideas your team needs to consider when polishing the latest profession to arrive.

Anyone who actually reads all of this deserves some praise for their patience.


#2 Tallera257

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

I really like your suggestion for how to change the Shatter class mechanic into something that gimps the class less.  The idea of being able to swap positions with each of your current clones is very cool, and definitely suits the Mesmer's basic concept of being magically elusive and deceptive.

I don't have enough experience with the class to really comment on the rest of your ideas (my mesmer only got to level 8 or so), but I hope ANet takes some of your thoughts into consideration.

#3 Xionix

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:29 PM

Honestly there's not worry of having to deal with these changes, but I'll throw my opinion out there anyways. The confusion change is a good idea. The rest I can't agree with. Greatsword is fine, even if you didn't like it. Pistol doesn't need a nerf, and changing phantasm skills on weapons into clone generators is sloppy at best. Blind is the worthwhile reason for using the block ability on scepter. Nerf MoA? It's the only counter to other elites. I could understand maybe a duration reduction but getting rid of it for a shitty vengeance is making me wonder if you even play this class.

Edited by Xionix, 01 July 2012 - 07:30 PM.


#4 Nuu

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostTallera257, on 01 July 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I really like your suggestion for how to change the Shatter class mechanic into something that gimps the class less.  The idea of being able to swap positions with each of your current clones is very cool, and definitely suits the Mesmer's basic concept of being magically elusive and deceptive.

I don't have enough experience with the class to really comment on the rest of your ideas (my mesmer only got to level 8 or so), but I hope ANet takes some of your thoughts into consideration.

Well first of all, BWE2 didn't bring any changes. Second, they won't be doing anything drastically different to the shatter system. Swapping is silly in my opinion. Clones are a means to an end....and swapping around constantly is a means to nothing except irritation from both sides. With 2 months release, shatters (again) wont see much change.

However, there will be the Mesmer symbol added to clones so it's harder to pick out the Mesmer. Now that's something needed :) scepter is getting back confusion & some other stuff, but swapping...? Idk why people think swapping is a good Idea...don't you think ANet thought of that...? Not being rude, I'm sincerely asking. I'm sure they already been through that & it doesn't work.

#5 Xrylene

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:42 PM

View PostXionix, on 01 July 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Honestly there's not worry of having to deal with these changes, but I'll throw my opinion out there anyways. The confusion change is a good idea. The rest I can't agree with. Greatsword is fine, even if you didn't like it. Pistol doesn't need a nerf, and changing phantasm skills on weapons into clone generators is sloppy at best. Blind is the worthwhile reason for using the block ability on scepter. Nerf MoA? It's the only counter to other elites. I could understand maybe a duration reduction but getting rid of it for a shitty vengeance is making me wonder if you even play this class.

Greatsword, as I said, is both bland and has some issues. The third skill roots an otherwise mobile profession, without the sort of benefit that blurred frenzy can provide in exchange for the root. The mirror blade skill, if clones are to do any damage at all, needs to be able to bounce away fromt he target, not right next to it due to how it's attack works, and returning to you makes it consistent.

Changing some of the phantasms into clones, in exchange for moving phantasms to elities, alows for the skills to retain the same overall function, but makes the illusion sacrificable if need be, and keeps some of the utility of the old phantasms. How you can say it's sloppy when there's little difference other than more options, I'm not sure.

Not sure if you actually played the profession, but the blind isn't a part of the block, it's used instead of the block if you cast it a second time before being attacked. The block itself only summons a clone.

You really don't see why Moa Morph is a bad idea for balance and doesn't fit with the Mesmer theme? The way you respond to it, it sounds to me that it isn't whether it fits or not, but the idea of a nerf that bothers you. Face it, all professions will need changes, some more than others, and it goes both ways. if something is toxic to the game, it will need to be changed, and Moa Morph is toxic.


View PostNuu, on 01 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well first of all, BWE2 didn't bring any changes. Second, they won't be doing anything drastically different to the shatter system. Swapping is silly in my opinion. Clones are a means to an end....and swapping around constantly is a means to nothing except irritation from both sides. With 2 months release, shatters (again) wont see much change.

However, there will be the Mesmer symbol added to clones so it's harder to pick out the Mesmer. Now that's something needed :) scepter is getting back confusion & some other stuff, but swapping...? Idk why people think swapping is a good Idea...don't you think ANet thought of that...? Not being rude, I'm sincerely asking. I'm sure they already been through that & it doesn't work.

The lack of a drastic change to the shatter problem though, is going to be more of a problem as the game goes on. At least with this kind of suggestion, I do propose they retain the shatters, but move them to utilities, that way they don't need to be the core profession mechanic. If it doesn't happen before release, something like that may need to happen after.

As for the idea of swapping in particular, with appropriate cooldowns I say to you, why not? It offers something that fits with how the Mesmer is, being elusive and deceptive, it can benefit any Mesmer build equally, it still makes use of clones without problems of interacting with phantasms. The issue of swapping too often is solved with proper global cooldowns/individual cooldowns. Regardless, even if that ende dup not beign the answer, it's still the right line of thought to follow. They need a mechanic that fits with all styles of play within the profession, whether it's this or somethhing else, it needs an improvement. I don't see you suggesting anything better?

Also, frankly, whether they did think of it before or not doesn't matter. Something like that could be applied to literally anything someone could say to suggest about the game "Oh, don't you think they thought of that already?" The answer will always be yes, they could have, but they also may not have, or may have looked at things in the wrong light. The way you put that makes them seem infallible, which isn't true. If that were th ecase, why would they even be open to as much feedback as they are?

Edited by Xrylene, 01 July 2012 - 07:49 PM.


#6 Potato Cat

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:53 PM

I agree with the shattering. That really needs to be revamped. Plus, it's just boring for me. And weird. If you think about it, we're a pet class which wants you to kill your poor illusions. The swapping would be a lot of fun, and I think you could combine the shatters in with the actual swap as you shatter yourself. I just hope the decoy doesn't become part of the core mechanic because it's a very useful skill for me as I make my escape. It's shocking how many people expect you to keep going in the same direction after you use it.

However I disagree on the confusion. It works as it does in PvP, it just really needs to last longer. Try it underwater with the trident and it is really effective because it lasts long enough to get a healthy stack, well not healthy for your opponent. And it works well in PvE too, not as good, but still valid. Also, I like the randomness of the staff. It reflects the Mesmer well in my opinion and keeps things fresh. And while the Greatsword is a tad boring in PvE and WvW, I think it's quite effective in sPvP. The spatial surge(?), (the knockback interrupt skill is what I'm thinking of), is great fun for me. Oh yeah, you coming at me with your spinny attack? Well FUS RO DAH b****! Take that. How is that bland, (in sPvP)?

#7 Awake

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:56 PM

I'm glad you pointed out Moa Bird.

It really needs to catch a fat nerf or be removed entirely imo. While it is slightly humorous to turn your opponent into a chicken when you're the one playing the Mesmer, the skill itself is just too ridiculous. It's a free kill in any 1v1 situation every 2 minutes.

Sure time warp might be even more powerful in the hands of a group, but your opponents can at least fight back against time warp. Moa Bird is a problem because its a "free" kill. If you're in a 1v1 against someone who pops time warp, you can cc and escape, outmaneuver them, debuff, you know just fight back.When you turn someone into a Moa Bird they pretty much have no way of fighting back or countering you at all. It's just not fun or fair.

#8 Xrylene

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:04 PM

View PostPotato Cat, on 01 July 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I agree with the shattering. That really needs to be revamped. Plus, it's just boring for me. And weird. If you think about it, we're a pet class which wants you to kill your poor illusions. The swapping would be a lot of fun, and I think you could combine the shatters in with the actual swap as you shatter yourself. I just hope the decoy doesn't become part of the core mechanic because it's a very useful skill for me as I make my escape. It's shocking how many people expect you to keep going in the same direction after you use it.

However I disagree on the confusion. It works as it does in PvP, it just really needs to last longer. Try it underwater with the trident and it is really effective because it lasts long enough to get a healthy stack, well not healthy for your opponent. And it works well in PvE too, not as good, but still valid. Also, I like the randomness of the staff. It reflects the Mesmer well in my opinion and keeps things fresh. And while the Greatsword is a tad boring in PvE and WvW, I think it's quite effective in sPvP. The spatial surge(?), (the knockback interrupt skill is what I'm thinking of), is great fun for me. Oh yeah, you coming at me with your spinny attack? Well FUS RO DAH b****! Take that. How is that bland, (in sPvP)?

What is your exact problem with decoy as an F key? Is it that it would become more common, so people would get more used to it? If I recall I did suggest to add some traits that could give effects on swap.

The Confusion issue is a bit deeper than that. You see, if the numbers are too high, with how long it can last, it becomes daze or die, which is an unhealthy game mechanic. I do agree that Trident is ridiculously good on Mesmer, but aquatic combat isn't something to be relied on, there aren't enough water areas to make use of it reliably, and one situation of high stacks of confusion doesn't speak for all others.

Randomness, whether you feel it reflects the Mesmer or not, is not healthy for PvP at all, and Arenanet wants this game to be an E-sport. To do that, they're going to need to work on balance a lot, and cut out all randomness so that the game is only about skill. As you can see, it's quite doable while retaining the same feel overall, the only thing you may miss is raw randomness, which this game shouldn't be about.

The knockback you talk about on the greatsword is an example of utility, and is one of it's only saving graces. Look at the other skills, we have damage, more damage and a boon that gives you more damage, another skill that does damage and applies a condition that causes you to do more damage, and a very slow to attack phantasm that applies cripple. Out of those,t he only one that might change how you play is the phantasm, the rest are just damage steroids, which lend to boring gameplay. You don't time them for certain situations, you just use them when they're off cooldown and you want to do more damage. See why that's boring in a game that's otherwise about maximising skill effectiveness and timing?

Edited by Xrylene, 01 July 2012 - 08:05 PM.


#9 Culture Shock

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

I agree with the ability to swap, but the rest pretty much denies a lot of what makes a Mesmer the class of Denial.  Taking confusion away is a bad idea since Mesmers played for years with skills that applied the same effects and it was not unbalanced.  In GW1 the unbalance came from dual classes and unlimited power.  Skills like Empathy and Backfire are what made the Mesmer class famous and they are in essence "confusion" skills.  Meaning they had the exact same effect as confusion.

They forced the enemy to make a choice between attacking and taking damage or getting rid of the condition.  This is what any damage condition should do, however the enemy had a choice.  Conditions like bleeding don't give the foe a choice in whether to take damage or not so how can confusion be over powered?

It seems as if Anet has been afraid to give Mesmers this power again, but it is in essence part of the class lore to "deny" the enemy in particular ways yet confusion gives more freedom than bleeding, poison, or burning.  I do agree that cool downs on shatters are ridiculously long when you compare them to other classes ability to use normal skills.  A lot of our skills are tied to illusions that do nothing until shatter skills are ready so not only do we have to wait for cool downs on the illusions themselves but then they don't do anything until shatters are ready also.  This is broken in my opinion, so we have to rely on utilities for survival until our phantasms are useful.  However most phantasms don't cause any real damage so we are left with about 2 illusions that actually do anything.

Without a swap mechanic the idea of "fooling" people doesn't translate into actual gameplay.  But without confusion, Mesmers are just half done necros.

Edited by Culture Shock, 01 July 2012 - 08:26 PM.


#10 Xrylene

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:28 PM

View PostCulture Shock, on 01 July 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I agree with the ability to swap, but the rest pretty much denies a lot of what makes a Mesmer the class of Denial.  Taking confusion away is a bad idea since Mesmers played for years with skills that applied the same effects and it was not unbalanced.  In GW1 the unbalance came from dual classes and unlimited power.  Skills like Empathy and Backfire are what made the Mesmer class famous and they are in essence "confusion" skills.  Meaning they had the exact same effect as confusion.

They forced the enemy to make a choice between attacking and taking damage or getting rid of the condition.  This is what any damage condition should do, however the enemy had a choice.  Conditions like bleeding don't give the foe a choice in whether to take damage or not so how can confusion be over powered?

It seems as if Anet has been afraid to give Mesmers this power again, but it is in essence part of the class lore to "deny" the enemy in particular ways yet confusion gives more freedom than bleeding, poison, or burning.  I do agree that cool downs on shatters are ridiculously long when you compare them to other classes ability to use normal skills.  A lot of our skills are tied to illusions that do nothing until shatter skills are ready so not only do we have to wait for cool downs on the illusions themselves but then they don't do anything until shatters are ready also.  This is broken in my opinion, so we have to rely on utilities for survival until our phantasms are useful.  However most phantasms don't cause any real damage so we are left with about 2 illusions that actually do anything.

Without a swap mechanic the idea of "fooling" people doesn't translate into actually gameplay.  But without confusion, Mesmers are just half done necros.

The Guild Wars 1 Mesmer may have been arguably balanced with everything else, but was it in a good way? Of that I'm not quite so sure. I'm aware of the parallel between the current Confusion tot he old denial skills, and the current illusions to the old hexes. However, you need to also look at how GW2 is different from the first, and why that same gameplay doesn't need to exist anymore.

Simply put, when you're looking at raw damage numbers, that scale with stacks, and are dealt with each use of an ability on the enemy's part, it will always result in one of two situations. It's either ignorable, or it isn't. And when it isn't ignorable, unless they specifically have a condition removal skill, which not all builds may have, they get to choose between continuing to attack and killing themself, or not fighting back and letting themselves be killed. Of course, you might choose simply to flee as well, but the whole point is that you aren't actually making them choose, you're giving them the illusion of choice. However fitting that concept may sound, it's not so great in practive in player versus player content.

Oh, and the whole comparison to bleeding, the key difference is variability. Bleeding will always damage at the same rate. Confusion does not. If Confusion is to be viable, it needs to do more damage than bleeding so that it isn't ignorable, correct? Sure, Bleeding, burning, poison, etc don't give you a choice, but they do not punish you for your actions, they just deal a consistent flow of damage that you can rely on. They are no different than continual attacks. In fact, the damage from DoTs can even be avoided by dodging, oddly enough, so it is in all ways similar to just a continious attack.

Edited by Xrylene, 01 July 2012 - 08:30 PM.


#11 Potato Cat

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:41 PM

View PostXrylene, on 01 July 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

What is your exact problem with decoy as an F key? Is it that it would become more common, so people would get more used to it? If I recall I did suggest to add some traits that could give effects on swap.

The Confusion issue is a bit deeper than that. You see, if the numbers are too high, with how long it can last, it becomes daze or die, which is an unhealthy game mechanic. I do agree that Trident is ridiculously good on Mesmer, but aquatic combat isn't something to be relied on, there aren't enough water areas to make use of it reliably, and one situation of high stacks of confusion doesn't speak for all others.

Randomness, whether you feel it reflects the Mesmer or not, is not healthy for PvP at all, and Arenanet wants this game to be an E-sport. To do that, they're going to need to work on balance a lot, and cut out all randomness so that the game is only about skill. As you can see, it's quite doable while retaining the same feel overall, the only thing you may miss is raw randomness, which this game shouldn't be about.

The knockback you talk about on the greatsword is an example of utility, and is one of it's only saving graces. Look at the other skills, we have damage, more damage and a boon that gives you more damage, another skill that does damage and applies a condition that causes you to do more damage, and a very slow to attack phantasm that applies cripple. Out of those,t he only one that might change how you play is the phantasm, the rest are just damage steroids, which lend to boring gameplay. You don't time them for certain situations, you just use them when they're off cooldown and you want to do more damage. See why that's boring in a game that's otherwise about maximising skill effectiveness and timing?

My problem with Decoy as a F key is that I fear the cooldowns will be increased. While I don't often, use it in (relatively) quick succession, there have been times when I found it necessary. I'd be fine if it kept the cooldown it has now and as I think about it more, it being F4 for example would better suit my shockingly tiny hands.

I only used the Trident as an exmple of how confusion is when it works well. If anything, I think it could be OP if it was transfered onto land. I think people are more trigger happy on land than in water. But there is more water than you might realise. Especially in WvW. Honestly, I think water is our best friend at the moment and I fear the nerf when they release the underwater pirate ship sPvP map. What I want with confusion is for it to remain unique in effect. I want it to be easier for it to stack on land and for it to punish players who aren't really thinking when fighting one of us.

Well as much as I love the Staff, I agree that it isn't that good in sPvP. But it is powerful in PvE. When I played other classes, I disliked the skills that would only inflict a certain condition. I found it boring. I would be happy to lose the the randomness, however, in favour for a cycle of conditions. E.g. Vulnerablity, Poison and then Bleeding. Same for the boons you get back. I just think it could be difficult to code. I also don't understand the whole iWarlock as a clone thing. We get enough clones as it is through Feigned Escape, (maybe lower the cooldown slightly, but otherwise, yeah, perfect), and it compliments the staff's abilities very well. And Chaos Storm is very effective in my experience, the randomness often works in my favour and severly weakens my foe while buffing me very quickly.

And I agree the Greatsword does need a bit more flavour to it. But I found it can be nice to have such a simple weapon to ease people into the class. The skill where you drive the Greatsword into the ground to damge your enemy is the worst skill in my opinion and could be swapped for a more interesting skill. But the weapon isn't itself a terrible weapon and without it we'd be lacking a ranged DPS.

#12 Nuu

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:43 PM

This is blowing my mind right now....

Yes mind wrack & cry of frustration shatters need help, but the other 2 are fine. Swapping is ridiculous & I won't change my views on that. The Mesmer is already the most squishy class because of lack of attunements such as water/earth or life-steal/death shroud of necros & killing people requires damage. NOT swapping. As I said before, symbols will take care of that. Just swapping around delays the inevitable.

Moa being instant kill...? LOL hah. Right. There are 2 kinds of skills. Skills powering you up, or skills powering people down. This is the latter. Again, the Mesmer is the softest. Oh and umm....it's an elite. An ELITE. People aren't going to be popping elites all day anyways. Cool down. I've been Moa'd a lot as a Mesmer and I never died...so i can't exactly relate. And if you can talk about Moa, then what about Lich & guardian elites...?

The random nature of Mesmers is fine. And effective. Staffs inflicting burn and bleed is much more effective than short confusion. Confusion doesn't do that much (and is good that way) because it's supposed to mix w/other conditions. That's the point of the Mesmer. Confusion and randomness. If you all did the math, your see the "randomness" is much better. I'll make a video about it later...but I just don't get these suggestions...

TL;DR

Swapping - ridiculous
Moa Bird - Fine
"Randomness" - Fine -- conditions "random" damage output is not (I'll do the math later)
Shatters - yes need quite a bit of help
Confusion - fine -- more damage would be OP, but longer original durations would help.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm NOT saying the Mesmer is done. BUT I am saying majority of the things you all mentioned is completely left field.



#13 grimmson

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:07 PM

can't believe that there are still players that think a complete mesmer mechanic change is a good or even a realistic idea...

I'll post a quote from another threat mentioning very good ideas that are also possible to patch in for the next beta.
point 3 is a little bit over the top in my opinion but whatever...

View PostSlimChance, on 27 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

...
1.  Change the UI:  hollow circle = no illusion, pink circle = clone, purple circle = phantasm.
The idea here is to let the player know at a glance exactly what and how many illusions that are up and running.  This allows a more informed decision on when or if to shatter.

2. Phantasm's overwrite Clones, but Clones do NOT over write Phantasm's.  BUT both clones and phantasm are still shatterable.
This has been brought up over and over by many people and it just makes too much sense.  If the player is running a phantasm build, he doesn't have to worry about his main weapon attack overwriting a phantasm.  And if a player is running a shatter build, he doesn't care if a phantasm shatters.

3. REMOVE Mindwrack from the shatter's.  Yep! you heard me.  Get it out of there.
The Mesmer is control, not damage.  Our mechanic should be nothing but control.  As long as Mind Wrack is pure damage, you will always have confliction in the playstyle.  Which is better damage from mind wrack OR damage from my illusions.  ALSO, its makes balancing the profession a bitch because Mind Wrack damage is "probable" damage. Its based on "how many illusions" and "IF" the illusions make to the target.  How do you balance "probable" damage???  Just take the damage from Mind Wrack and up weapon damage or add a trait that adds damage to shatters or something like that.

In its place, add another control element.  My first suggestion would be something that granted "retaliation" to the mesmer.  Call it "Empathy or Backfire".  Since Diversion and Cry of Frustration are "offensive" and DIstorition is "defensive" it make sense to make even out and add another "defensive" shatter to the line up.  BUT even if it was something like "Imagined Burden" that crippled the target or "Ineptitude" that blinded or whatever.. another "control" shatter instead of Mind Wrack.  Lose Mind Wrack!  Make the mechanic "purely" about control.  Then you can balance the weapon/skill damage accordingly.  Now, the Mesmer's mechanic makes sense.. no confliction... no debate.. the shatters are there for the Mesmer to CONTROL the battlefield.. thats what we do!!!

4. Increase illusion speed after shatter command.
Read this idea either here or in the official forums.  Just bump up the movement speed of all illusions when a shatter command is given.  something like 20%  give those illusions a better chance of getting to the target.

5. Change Illusions to shatter on the Mesmer's current target.
Right now, illusions are tied to the original target.  If the mesmer changes targets and executes a shatter, the illusion goes to the original target.  CHANGE THAT, the player needs to be able to select his target for the control shatters.  Again, Mesmer's control the battle, thats what we do.

6.  Mantra's...  I don't know what ANet is trying with these, but they are not working.
The Mantra's in GW was more like a stance and provided a type of "protection".  These mantra's are supposed to be about "fast casting", but I don't see it.  Only thing I think of is to give the Mesmer some type of "protection" while charging the skill, otherwise there is no point to choosing a Mantra over a Sigil.

In my eyes, if ANet implemented those first 5 changes, the Mesmer would be more "polished" and have better direction in what its about.  Then its just a matter of tweaking the numbers on weapons and skills.
...

that and balance to scepter, oh sword, focus

Edited by grimmson, 01 July 2012 - 11:24 PM.


#14 Awake

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:37 PM

View PostNuu, on 01 July 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Moa being instant kill...? LOL hah. Right. There are 2 kinds of skills. Skills powering you up, or skills powering people down. This is the latter. Again, the Mesmer is the softest. Oh and umm....it's an elite. An ELITE. People aren't going to be popping elites all day anyways. Cool down. I've been Moa'd a lot as a Mesmer and I never died...so i can't exactly relate. And if you can talk about Moa, then what about Lich & guardian elites...?

I didn't say Moa Bird was an instant kill. I said Moa Bird was a free kill. If you 1v1 and use Moa Bird and don't kill your opponent, you fail terribly. It's not instant, it's just free.

Sure it's an elite skill. Elites skills should be good skills. They should not be free kills. Moa bird is a free kill.

Using your lich comparison to Moa, lich is obviously awesome. So is Moa. The main difference is that you can actually fight back against the Necro Lich elite. You still retain control over your character and can counter with cc to escape, outmaneuver them, LoS the duration, or maybe even pop an elite of your own to counter, or just flat out play better and beat them anyway. The point is that you can retaliate against other elite skills like Lich. You can NOT fight back against Moa bird. It's 10 seconds of "might as well bang my head into this wall while I run away because I can't do anything else". It's puts you into a position that makes it impossible for you to counter your opponent. 10 seconds is entirely to long for such a potent lock down. It should either be reduced in duration, have it's effect changed, or be removed and swapped with another elite.

#15 Shriketalon

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:28 PM

View Postgrimmson, on 01 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

can't believe that there are still player that think a complete mesmer mechanic change is a good or even a realistic idea...
The main problem with attempting iterative fixes on the Mesmer's main mechanic is that it is simply designed wrong.  So are many mesmer fixes (including some of my own :)), for the simple reason of overdesign.  Too many people approach the main mechanic as designing the way the class is supposed to play, rather than a way of enhancing all the ways a class can play.  A good mechanic does not dictate your playstyle, only improves upon the numerous builds the profession can bring to bear.

What does a Warrior do?  Smash, bash, crash, and dash his opponents to ribbons using every armament under the sun.  What does adrenaline do?  Crank up his chosen weapons to add more smashing, bashing, crashing, and dashing.  What does a Necromancer do?  Unleash disease, despair, and death upon his opponents to drag them downward to their doom.  What does life force do?  Give him an extra edge for surviving conflict in order to keep his head above the water while his opponent drowns.  What does a guardian do?  Smite his foes and protect his friends.  What do Virtues do?  Beef up smiting and protecting for himself and everyone else.  Good mechanics don't care how you play, they've got your back in every situation and enhance everything your profession is supposed to do.

A system that siphones away weapon skills just to fuel a cookie cutter gimmick like blowing up NPC does not qualify.  Shatters do not have the mesmer's back, nor do they enhance the playstyles available to the class or improve upon any style of play the mesmer wants to enjoy.  No quick fix is going to change this, nor will anything short of revising the main mechanic give the mesmer the flexibility it needs to fit into different game modes and present numerous ways to participate in different roles.

#16 Nuu

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:06 PM

View PostAwake, on 01 July 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:



I didn't say Moa Bird was an instant kill. I said Moa Bird was a free kill. If you 1v1 and use Moa Bird and don't kill your opponent, you fail terribly. It's not instant, it's just free.

Sure it's an elite skill. Elites skills should be good skills. They should not be free kills. Moa bird is a free kill.

Using your lich comparison to Moa, lich is obviously awesome. So is Moa. The main difference is that you can actually fight back against the Necro Lich elite. You still retain control over your character and can counter with cc to escape, outmaneuver them, LoS the duration, or maybe even pop an elite of your own to counter, or just flat out play better and beat them anyway. The point is that you can retaliate against other elite skills like Lich. You can NOT fight back against Moa bird. It's 10 seconds of "might as well bang my head into this wall while I run away because I can't do anything else". It's puts you into a position that makes it impossible for you to counter your opponent. 10 seconds is entirely to long for such a potent lock down. It should either be reduced in duration, have it's effect changed, or be removed and swapped with another elite.

-_-" let's not parse words. You know what I mean. I don't mean instant kill as in you cast, they die. I mean what you mean...which I think isn't true. It certainly is not a free kill. Anyways, it's whatever....

I hate to say this and I'm usually the one who argues for everything, but if you don't like the Mesmer...maybe instead of complaining, try to find some redeeming qualities. Xeph & other plays like dimensionPvP & other players have. A couple have acknowledged the Mesmer NEEDS help in certain areas yes. Especially damage for shatters (just a little bit more) and some fixing w/confusion...bugs etc, but some make it seem like its unplayable. No one has directly said that, but that's what's being implied. That these problems completely saturate the good aspects of the Mesmer. I won't say go pick another class, but I can't lie...I'm tempted to..I do sympathize because it seems the Mesmer needs a lot of help. But guys....

First before even talking about issues, let's see what you guys are doing? Do you have any video? What builds we're you playing? What gear did you use? What play style did you employ? I wanna hear about THAT first...then people talking about shatters sucking. Tell me you have over 1000 power & shatters only do like 30 damage (since mindwrack is based off power). Give me evidence first. We know the obvious: that shatter damage in general needs help & whatever among other things. I'm just saying, I'm tired of people asking for revisions when they clearly haven't thought about the remifications or reasons they're not already here, like swapping. Seriously....swapping. SWAPPING. How vanilla of a mechanic is that? Others have pets, death shroud, passive/active skills & attunements....and you want US to have swapping...? Ok.

#17 Xionix

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:26 PM

View PostAwake, on 01 July 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I didn't say Moa Bird was an instant kill. I said Moa Bird was a free kill. If you 1v1 and use Moa Bird and don't kill your opponent, you fail terribly. It's not instant, it's just free.


That or someone learned to dodge and los properly. I only use time warp, but i've never died to moa (although i've been close decoy is there as soon as it drops). If it is overpowered or "toxic" then Anet will fix it eventually. I just can't grasp begging for nerfs with many other things needing higher priority than wah I died in a 1v1 because I forgot where my dodge key is.

#18 Awake

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:34 AM

View PostXionix, on 01 July 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

That or someone learned to dodge and los properly. I only use time warp, but i've never died to moa (although i've been close decoy is there as soon as it drops). If it is overpowered or "toxic" then Anet will fix it eventually. I just can't grasp begging for nerfs with many other things needing higher priority than wah I died in a 1v1 because I forgot where my dodge key is.

Being locked out of your skills for 10 seconds is not fun or fair gameplay. Moa is not the most powerful elite in the game, and I'm not asking for it to be nerfed really. I think it's just a poor design of a skill and needs to be changed.

#19 Merryem

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:04 AM

View PostAwake, on 02 July 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Being locked out of your skills for 10 seconds is not fun or fair gameplay. Moa is not the most powerful elite in the game, and I'm not asking for it to be nerfed really. I think it's just a poor design of a skill and needs to be changed.

I disagree completely. It's not like during Moa you can't move; you can still move. If we followed your ideals, skills like Endure Pain, buffs like Distortion, all would be removed as it's not "fair or fun". There are some really good uses for Moa; ex. You're fighting a 1v1 and you see an enemy Ranger come in from the side; you Moa the ranger, finish off the Warrior, stomp him and change your attention. That's called skilled use of Moa.

Edited by Merryem, 02 July 2012 - 01:04 AM.


#20 Xeviant

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:10 AM

Perhaps a tweak to moa to make it a CC.  While one is a MoA your regen is increased so that way people cant wail on you excessively but you still take some dmg.  An other option would be to have direct dmg decrease its duration.  That said, Moa isn't like a stunlock, you can LoS, evade, etc.  One thing to consider, can it be dispelled like a condition? I've not seen that done, but that might be a way to balance it.

#21 Awake

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:31 AM

View PostMerryem, on 02 July 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

I disagree completely. It's not like during Moa you can't move; you can still move. If we followed your ideals, skills like Endure Pain, buffs like Distortion, all would be removed as it's not "fair or fun". There are some really good uses for Moa; ex. You're fighting a 1v1 and you see an enemy Ranger come in from the side; you Moa the ranger, finish off the Warrior, stomp him and change your attention. That's called skilled use of Moa.

Yeah you can still move while under Moa, but basic movement hardly means anything at all in the situation you described. In the situation you used Moa'ing the ranger, you might as well have just ported him out of the map for 10 seconds. Except porting him out of the map would be a nerfed version of Moa, since while in Moa the ranger would contribute nothing to the fight with you and the warrior, and is still able to take full damage for the entire duration. If he was ported out of the map he wouldn't be able to take dmg. See my point?

No ability should prevent you from using abilities for 10 seconds and allow you to take 100% damage during the entire duration. Moa is essentially a 10sec stun that doesn't root you. You have no access to any of your skills, can't retaliate or respond other than running, and you can still be effected by snares, slows, stuns, debuffs, ect, to prevent you from having completely free movement.

View PostXeviant, on 02 July 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Perhaps a tweak to moa to make it a CC.  While one is a MoA your regen is increased so that way people cant wail on you excessively but you still take some dmg.  An other option would be to have direct dmg decrease its duration.  That said, Moa isn't like a stunlock, you can LoS, evade, etc.  One thing to consider, can it be dispelled like a condition? I've not seen that done, but that might be a way to balance it.

I wouldn't mind Moa if it was used as strictly a cc elite. If people regened health during Moa or took reduced dmg or heck even a immunity to roots/slows/stuns during it it would be heading in the right direction. I definitely agree with you here. Decreasing duration from dmg taken is a good idea.

You can LoS and evade Moa, but let's be real, you can't dodge everything. People saying "just L2 dodge or LoS" must have permanent roll bars and walk around with portable pillars to hide behind. Not that you can't evade it, but you can't evade everything all the time, and intelligent players won't blow Moa on you if there's a high risk of you evading it.

I've not seen it be dispelled so I can't comment really there. You can't dispel it yourself since you don't have access to any of your abilities, so someone would have had to dispel it off you with an AoE or something. I haven't seen that happen yet but it might be possible.

Edited by Awake, 02 July 2012 - 02:33 AM.


#22 TYphoon34

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:15 AM

Instead of trying to rework the class, wouldn't it be better to fix the current class. I believe it's entirely possible.

Shouts

Mind Wrack - Have it deal X amount of damage per clone. 1500-1800 per clone seems sufficient making for 4500-5400 damage with 3 clones and when traited  5400-6480 damage. That is a pretty nice burst amount for when the situation requires. Have Mind Wrack do this as a flat amount of damage, not influenced by critical chance, crit damage, power. I say nothing is wrong with allowing Sigils to affect it (5% more damage) but that is pretty much all.

Cry of Frustration - No problem here at all!

Confusion

Right now confusion is 80 damage without a condition damage build. 8 stacks of confusion (which is pretty easy to obtain I've seen) will cause 640 damage per attack.

Now, my math may be incorrect, but I heard Confusion follows the same Condition damage formula as bleeding, which means 20 condition damage equals 1 additional damage for a stack of confusion. Your average conditon damage focused build should have around 1300 condition damage. So we will work with 1300, an additional 65 damage per stack of confusion. Now confusion deals 1160 damage per attack, which is actually pretty respectable considering a condition damage build would be using more than just confusion to inflict their conditions. Now, builds centered around Confusion may not have much luck in -shutting down- their opponents, but 1160 damage is quite a bit for a SINGLE condition. If my math is incorrect and anyone has a recent, up-to-date formula for condition damage and confusion, please do let me know.

Weapon Skills

Scepter - Remove the clone from 1, increase the base damage to be a somewhat hard hitting skill. 459 per hit seems decent, comparable to the Elementalist's 1 skill on Scepter. Everything else is fine as is.

Sword OH - Bump up the damage of the Phantasm to about 1k-1.5k a strike.

Pistol - Fine
Torch - Fine
Focus - Fine
Staff - Fine

Greatsword - Ok, here we go. The greatsword should be our go to weapon for a bit of spike damage.
-Make Spatial Surge do equivalent damage to the Ranger's longbow 1 skill
  • 1000+ - 509 damage
  • 500-1000 - 302 damage
  • 0-500 - 254 damage
- Mirror blade is fine as is, maybe a bump to 300-350 damage
- Mind Stab is fine as is
-Berserker - Cripple is perfect for this weapon type.
-Illusionary Wave - Equivalent damage to the ranger knockback, 539. I would also not mind removing the knockback and bumping the damage to 700 with a condition such as 3 stacks of bleed or aoe cripple with a 10 second cooldown increase.

These changes, although they seem small, would certainly add a bam to the greatsword and make it a nice spiking weapon alongside MH sword.

Elite Skills

Moa Morph - Fine

Mass Invisibility - Yes, swiftness seems like a nice addition to this skill or maybe a regen effect.

Time Warp - fine

Trait Lines

Funny, my problem with the Mesmer's trait are because so many revolve around dazes and interruptions. I swear, there are like 15 traits (exaggeration). A little more variety will go nicely in the Mesmer trait line, but it's not terrible compared to other classes. I actually find myself upset I cannot pursue another trait line to pick up X trait.Unlike my elementalist, where I generally knew that 20 points would go in Arcane, 10 in Water, 10 Fire, 10 in Air and the remaining 20 points wherever I feel like it.

Downed State

The goal of the down state is to not save you 100%, but to give you a chance. The daze on the 2 skill would be helpful, and the teleport is pretty bad...a cloak like stated above would be excellent.

Conclusion

I doubt we would get a skill mechanic rework by now, but I think most of the mechanics are fine. Now I haven't played the class, and my reasoning is all second hand knowledge. If you feel I am incorrect in any form or manner, feel free to bring it up or correct me. From what I see, the only problem is number changing that is required.

#23 Merryem

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:31 AM

View PostAwake, on 02 July 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Yeah you can still move while under Moa, but basic movement hardly means anything at all in the situation you described. In the situation you used Moa'ing the ranger, you might as well have just ported him out of the map for 10 seconds. Except porting him out of the map would be a nerfed version of Moa, since while in Moa the ranger would contribute nothing to the fight with you and the warrior, and is still able to take full damage for the entire duration. If he was ported out of the map he wouldn't be able to take dmg. See my point? No ability should prevent you from using abilities for 10 seconds and allow you to take 100% damage during the entire duration. Moa is essentially a 10sec stun that doesn't root you. You have no access to any of your skills, can't retaliate or respond other than running, and you can still be effected by snares, slows, stuns, debuffs, ect, to prevent you from having completely free movement. I wouldn't mind Moa if it was used as strictly a cc elite. If people regened health during Moa or took reduced dmg or heck even a immunity to roots/slows/stuns during it it would be heading in the right direction.

What about other transformation/immunity skills then? Death Shroud? I can't kill Necromancers while they're in death shroud! It's essentially a second health bar, isn't that overpowered? Or Warriors with their Endure Pain, which is essentially a 5-second INVINCIBILITY; and it's NOT EVEN an Elite. Guardian's Sanctuary? Elementalist's Tornado?

Moa doesn't need any changes. It's hard CC, perfectly reasonable for it's CD.

#24 Carighan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:55 AM

View PostAwake, on 02 July 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind Moa if it was used as strictly a cc elite. If people regened health during Moa or took reduced dmg or heck even a immunity to roots/slows/stuns during it it would be heading in the right direction. I definitely agree with you here. Decreasing duration from dmg taken is a good idea.

Keep in mind though that stuff like this probably gets balanced for WvW first, other things later.
In other words, how useful is Moa Bird in 100v100 matchups? Can't the morphed person simply retreat a few steps back behind their friendly frontline?

#25 Kogarasumaru

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:03 AM

View PostCarighan, on 02 July 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Keep in mind though that stuff like this probably gets balanced for WvW first, other things later.
In other words, how useful is Moa Bird in 100v100 matchups? Can't the morphed person simply retreat a few steps back behind their friendly frontline?

Who would use moa over time warp in WvWvW?

#26 Merryem

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:14 AM

View PostCarighan, on 02 July 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Keep in mind though that stuff like this probably gets balanced for WvW first, other things later. In other words, how useful is Moa Bird in 100v100 matchups? Can't the morphed person simply retreat a few steps back behind their friendly frontline?

Moa is completely useless in 100v100. I could see Mass Invisibility and Time Warp being pure Chaos though. Imagine casting Time Warp on a group of 20 elementalists :|

Edited by Merryem, 02 July 2012 - 05:16 AM.


#27 Nuu

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:48 AM

IF THERE ARE ANY CHANGES............it needs to be this first (slight clone interface additions): http://www.reddit.co...ce_improvement/

View PostTYphoon34, on 02 July 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Instead of trying to rework the class, wouldn't it be better to fix the current class. I believe it's entirely possible.

Shouts

Mind Wrack - Have it deal X amount of damage per clone. 1500-1800 per clone seems sufficient making for 4500-5400 damage with 3 clones and when traited  5400-6480 damage. That is a pretty nice burst amount for when the situation requires. Have Mind Wrack do this as a flat amount of damage, not influenced by critical chance, crit damage, power. I say nothing is wrong with allowing Sigils to affect it (5% more damage) but that is pretty much all.

Cry of Frustration - No problem here at all!

Confusion

Right now confusion is 80 damage without a condition damage build. 8 stacks of confusion (which is pretty easy to obtain I've seen) will cause 640 damage per attack.

Now, my math may be incorrect, but I heard Confusion follows the same Condition damage formula as bleeding, which means 20 condition damage equals 1 additional damage for a stack of confusion. Your average conditon damage focused build should have around 1300 condition damage. So we will work with 1300, an additional 65 damage per stack of confusion. Now confusion deals 1160 damage per attack, which is actually pretty respectable considering a condition damage build would be using more than just confusion to inflict their conditions. Now, builds centered around Confusion may not have much luck in -shutting down- their opponents, but 1160 damage is quite a bit for a SINGLE condition. If my math is incorrect and anyone has a recent, up-to-date formula for condition damage and confusion, please do let me know.

Weapon Skills

Scepter - Remove the clone from 1, increase the base damage to be a somewhat hard hitting skill. 459 per hit seems decent, comparable to the Elementalist's 1 skill on Scepter. Everything else is fine as is.

Sword OH - Bump up the damage of the Phantasm to about 1k-1.5k a strike.

Pistol - Fine
Torch - Fine
Focus - Fine
Staff - Fine

Greatsword - Ok, here we go. The greatsword should be our go to weapon for a bit of spike damage.
-Make Spatial Surge do equivalent damage to the Ranger's longbow 1 skill
  • 1000+ - 509 damage
  • 500-1000 - 302 damage
  • 0-500 - 254 damage
- Mirror blade is fine as is, maybe a bump to 300-350 damage
- Mind Stab is fine as is
-Berserker - Cripple is perfect for this weapon type.
-Illusionary Wave - Equivalent damage to the ranger knockback, 539. I would also not mind removing the knockback and bumping the damage to 700 with a condition such as 3 stacks of bleed or aoe cripple with a 10 second cooldown increase.

These changes, although they seem small, would certainly add a bam to the greatsword and make it a nice spiking weapon alongside MH sword.

Elite Skills

Moa Morph - Fine

Mass Invisibility - Yes, swiftness seems like a nice addition to this skill or maybe a regen effect.

Time Warp - fine

Trait Lines

Funny, my problem with the Mesmer's trait are because so many revolve around dazes and interruptions. I swear, there are like 15 traits (exaggeration). A little more variety will go nicely in the Mesmer trait line, but it's not terrible compared to other classes. I actually find myself upset I cannot pursue another trait line to pick up X trait.Unlike my elementalist, where I generally knew that 20 points would go in Arcane, 10 in Water, 10 Fire, 10 in Air and the remaining 20 points wherever I feel like it.

Downed State

The goal of the down state is to not save you 100%, but to give you a chance. The daze on the 2 skill would be helpful, and the teleport is pretty bad...a cloak like stated above would be excellent.

Conclusion

I doubt we would get a skill mechanic rework by now, but I think most of the mechanics are fine. Now I haven't played the class, and my reasoning is all second hand knowledge. If you feel I am incorrect in any form or manner, feel free to bring it up or correct me. From what I see, the only problem is number changing that is required.

OH MY GSWT YOU ARE MY LONG LOST BROTHER....*cries* someone who gets me

View PostXionix, on 01 July 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

That or someone learned to dodge and los properly. I only use time warp, but i've never died to moa (although i've been close decoy is there as soon as it drops). If it is overpowered or "toxic" then Anet will fix it eventually. I just can't grasp begging for nerfs with many other things needing higher priority than wah I died in a 1v1 because I forgot where my dodge key is.

+1.......BAZILLION

Edited by Nuu, 02 July 2012 - 06:18 AM.


#28 TYphoon34

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:06 AM

View PostNuu, on 02 July 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:


OH MY GSWT YOU ARE MY LONG LOST BROTHER....*cries* someone who gets me

I showed my friend your video and he said, "HE SOUNDS JUST LIKE YOU!" I responded with, "MY LONG LOST TWIN!"

Back on topic, now to get this to ArenaNet before BWE 3.

#29 Nuu

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:19 AM

View PostTYphoon34, on 02 July 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

I showed my friend your video and he said, "HE SOUNDS JUST LIKE YOU!" I responded with, "MY LONG LOST TWIN!"

Back on topic, now to get this to ArenaNet before BWE 3.

LOL that really tickles me. (Off topic) hopefully we can play sometime & do some epic mesmer stuff. (back on topic) yeah they seriously need to hook it up.

#30 Carighan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:44 AM

View PostMerryem, on 02 July 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Moa is completely useless in 100v100. I could see Mass Invisibility and Time Warp being pure Chaos though. Imagine casting Time Warp on a group of 20 elementalists :|

Exactly my point. If at all it's still too weak, if 100v100 is supposed to be the focus.
Although from past experience in DAoC, single-target skills have a far greater place in mass-PvP than one gives them credit for, once the game ages a bit and people tend to develop actual army-charge tactics naturally.

Ofc, if it's intended to not be used in WvW, then yes, it could use rebalancing.





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