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Suggestions Feedback Mesmer Rework

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#31 Culture Shock

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:18 AM

View PostXrylene, on 01 July 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Simply put, when you're looking at raw damage numbers, that scale with stacks, and are dealt with each use of an ability on the enemy's part, it will always result in one of two situations. It's either ignorable, or it isn't. And when it isn't ignorable, unless they specifically have a condition removal skill, which not all builds may have, they get to choose between continuing to attack and killing themself, or not fighting back and letting themselves be killed. Of course, you might choose simply to flee as well, but the whole point is that you aren't actually making them choose, you're giving them the illusion of choice. However fitting that concept may sound, it's not so great in practive in player versus player content.

Oh, and the whole comparison to bleeding, the key difference is variability. Bleeding will always damage at the same rate. Confusion does not. If Confusion is to be viable, it needs to do more damage than bleeding so that it isn't ignorable, correct? Sure, Bleeding, burning, poison, etc don't give you a choice, but they do not punish you for your actions, they just deal a consistent flow of damage that you can rely on. They are no different than continual attacks.

I think you've answered your own questions here.  In PvE content foes do quite often stop attacking when stacks of confusion are on them, I have this on video and have discussed this with several other Mesmers.  Also players who can't remove conditions with their  build have chosen to be without defense against ALL conditions and you said your self confusion is "no different than continual attacks".

Confusion can play a role in your damage whether the foe attacks or not because its not your only source of damage,  so to ignore it should be possible without instant death.  (it doesn't have to be cranked up to OP levels)  But does that mean foes SHOULD ignore it?  Auto-attacks are not  always the highest damage skills on your bar, but does that mean foes should ignore it?  Clones have a singular threat of damage in the future as they currently do almost zero damage while alive, these can arguably be ignored since they are for shatters according to Eric Flannum.  This is also "delayed" damage which one could arguably ignore.  Even health degeneration such as bleeding can arguably be ignored since it's slow, but does that mean you "should" ignore it?

The fact that Mesmers are still a major force to deal with in PvP is a testimony that Mesmers do in fact kill other players even with confusion only having one decent skill that applies it, says something to the cause.  Mesmers should have a profession condition or they become cheap half done Engineers with really pretty grenades.

In fact confusion along with skills such as empathy were passive damage that annoyed many other players because it did not have the "flash bang warning" that you are about to take damage.  Players would kill themselves because they didn't realize they were under a serious attack.  It's not that the skill was OP, it was just a bit too subtle for GW2, clean crisp visuals have taken care of that now.

If you research the lore of Mesmers you will see just how fitting confusion is to the class, and why it is a much better core mechanic than shatters.  I disagree with Anet for tying most of our class mechanics to illusion magic, because it was only one area of Mesmer magic.  I do like stuns, and dazes because without confusion they are all we have left of Domination Magic.  And chaos storm also counts.

Edited by Culture Shock, 02 July 2012 - 08:23 AM.


#32 Agon

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:19 AM

If you use Moa and the guy just runs from the point it's already kind of a win anyway? Trying to catch the Moa bird which afaik isn't even slowed is taking a good while if he uses line of sight, maybe he can even jump down somewhere since there are a lot of hotspots where this is possible. If the defender is really chasing after you all the time your team might have capped the point in the meantime. The only really damn good thing with the bird was that you could cancel out other elites and i freaking loved doing that to necros and elementalists.

#33 Culture Shock

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:58 AM

View PostAwake, on 01 July 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I didn't say Moa Bird was an instant kill. I said Moa Bird was a free kill. If you 1v1 and use Moa Bird and don't kill your opponent, you fail terribly. It's not instant, it's just free.

Sure it's an elite skill. Elites skills should be good skills. They should not be free kills. Moa bird is a free kill.

Using your lich comparison to Moa, lich is obviously awesome. So is Moa. The main difference is that you can actually fight back against the Necro Lich elite. You still retain control over your character and can counter with cc to escape, outmaneuver them, LoS the duration, or maybe even pop an elite of your own to counter, or just flat out play better and beat them anyway. The point is that you can retaliate against other elite skills like Lich. You can NOT fight back against Moa bird. It's 10 seconds of "might as well bang my head into this wall while I run away because I can't do anything else". It's puts you into a position that makes it impossible for you to counter your opponent. 10 seconds is entirely to long for such a potent lock down. It should either be reduced in duration, have it's effect changed, or be removed and swapped with another elite.

I agree that Moa does go against the new Anet policy of "not fun" for other players, I would have preferred an elite that summoned an aatxe or 3 mindblades from the underworld.  Now that would be fitting for illusion magic and still not be OP.  An aatxe with it's high damage could not be ignored by your foe, so it would still occupy them the same as Moa, however other players could help them kill it, and they could fight it with their normal skill bar.

Posted Image

Edited by Culture Shock, 02 July 2012 - 09:01 AM.


#34 NapTooN

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:50 PM

The biggest thing i hope they change about the Mesmer is the Confusion Duration Trait. Why is it only +33% and not +50%? Warriors, Necros and Guardians get +50% for their trademark Condition/Boon:

- Warrior +50% Bleed Duration
- Necro +50% Fear Duration
- Guardian +50% Retaliation Duration

Ok you might argue that Thief only gets +33% on Poison Duration but that's a bad decision as well. The other 3 can get up to +100% on their Condition/Boon with the right Runes/Trait Points/Sigils. The Ranger can even get over +200% with his Chill from Frost Trap.

The maximum for the Mesmer is +83% on Confusion:
- 30% from 30 in Domination
- 33% from the Trait
- 20% from the right Rune Setup

The Thief can get to 113% with Poison:
- 30% from 30 Points in Deadly Arts
- 33% from the Trait
- 30% from the right Rune Setup
- 20% from 2 Sigils

The Mesmer just gets the short end of the stick and i don't like that. Turning the Trait into +50% won't make Confusion OP. +100% Confusion Duration does not make it imba, it makes it a worthwile condition.

#35 Awake

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostCarighan, on 02 July 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Keep in mind though that stuff like this probably gets balanced for WvW first, other things later.
In other words, how useful is Moa Bird in 100v100 matchups? Can't the morphed person simply retreat a few steps back behind their friendly frontline?

I'm not sure where you got that ArenaNet would be balancing around WvWvW. They have stated plenty of times that they want to focus a lot on the tournaments and have aspirations of GW2 becoming a competitive E-sport. You can bet that all balancing will come straight out of sPvP.

View PostCulture Shock, on 02 July 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

I agree that Moa does go against the new Anet policy of "not fun" for other players, I would have preferred an elite that summoned an aatxe or 3 mindblades from the underworld.

Yeah that's my main point. It's not like Moa bird is incredibly overpowered and zomg needs nerfs badly or anything. I just think the ability is not the type of ability that should ever exist in a game. Character/ability lockout is not a fun CC. That's why people hate stuns so much. It's acceptable to have CC's for a few seconds like fears and stuns and others, but long term duration lockouts are just ridiculous. 10 seconds of character lockout is just stupid and not fun, especially when it's only one ability and not even a chain of CC's and doesn't even break on dmg.

#36 Xeviant

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:20 PM

A final word on Moa.  Coming from WoW, many of the CC/Interrupt skills for GW2 feel really balanced.  Compared to the stunlock chains that rogues/warriors would put on people in WoW, GW2 feels really quite friendly in that respect.  I feel like GW2 has a fairly good overall class balance.  It's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good compared to other games.  The one MAJOR thing people need to keep in mind is that Anet will continue to tweak balance LONG after launch.  As new gear is arrives and many other things, there'll be a need to rework things.  I've been glad they dont do the blizzard copout of "we dont balance 1v1"  Moa seems a tad OP, but, look at Necromancers: DS->Lich Form-> DS.  Have someone do a solid crit build and you can count on some serious pain train in your face from that.  2/3 of that time you're not actually damaging the Necromancer's HP.  While that can seem balance breaking, in practice its just not worked out that way.  I think that is the same case with Moa.  In theory its looks like it could be game breaking, but in practice, it just isn't.  Sure, it can be a tide turner, but a lot of other classes have ways/means for the same thing.   What I love about GW2 is the amazing curve of personal player ability.  With most any class in this game, you can overcome any situation through shear personal skill.  It's not like wow where the only way you kill a rogue 1v1 is that rogue has to be dumb as hell (and I mean really, really, really dumb).

Edited by Xeviant, 02 July 2012 - 05:23 PM.


#37 Xionix

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:47 PM

View PostCarighan, on 02 July 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Exactly my point. If at all it's still too weak, if 100v100 is supposed to be the focus.
Although from past experience in DAoC, single-target skills have a far greater place in mass-PvP than one gives them credit for, once the game ages a bit and people tend to develop actual army-charge tactics naturally.

Ofc, if it's intended to not be used in WvW, then yes, it could use rebalancing.

It is pretty weak in wvw. At the same time we have two elites that seem to be tailored just for WvW (time warp is awesome everywhere tbh). I don't see them making a cc elite into something more viable in wvw. It'll just make it overpowered in sPvP which they're trying to push into an esport (not that I think it'll work, mmos arent balanced enough and this game is no exception).



View PostTYphoon34, on 02 July 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Instead of trying to rework the class, wouldn't it be better to fix the current class. I believe it's entirely possible.

Shouts

Mind Wrack - Have it deal X amount of damage per clone. 1500-1800 per clone seems sufficient making for 4500-5400 damage with 3 clones and when traited  5400-6480 damage. That is a pretty nice burst amount for when the situation requires. Have Mind Wrack do this as a flat amount of damage, not influenced by critical chance, crit damage, power. I say nothing is wrong with allowing Sigils to affect it (5% more damage) but that is pretty much all.

Cry of Frustration - No problem here at all!

Confusion

Right now confusion is 80 damage without a condition damage build. 8 stacks of confusion (which is pretty easy to obtain I've seen) will cause 640 damage per attack.

Now, my math may be incorrect, but I heard Confusion follows the same Condition damage formula as bleeding, which means 20 condition damage equals 1 additional damage for a stack of confusion. Your average conditon damage focused build should have around 1300 condition damage. So we will work with 1300, an additional 65 damage per stack of confusion. Now confusion deals 1160 damage per attack, which is actually pretty respectable considering a condition damage build would be using more than just confusion to inflict their conditions. Now, builds centered around Confusion may not have much luck in -shutting down- their opponents, but 1160 damage is quite a bit for a SINGLE condition. If my math is incorrect and anyone has a recent, up-to-date formula for condition damage and confusion, please do let me know.

Weapon Skills

Scepter - Remove the clone from 1, increase the base damage to be a somewhat hard hitting skill. 459 per hit seems decent, comparable to the Elementalist's 1 skill on Scepter. Everything else is fine as is.

Sword OH - Bump up the damage of the Phantasm to about 1k-1.5k a strike.

Pistol - Fine
Torch - Fine
Focus - Fine
Staff - Fine

Greatsword - Ok, here we go. The greatsword should be our go to weapon for a bit of spike damage.
-Make Spatial Surge do equivalent damage to the Ranger's longbow 1 skill
  • 1000+ - 509 damage
  • 500-1000 - 302 damage
  • 0-500 - 254 damage
- Mirror blade is fine as is, maybe a bump to 300-350 damage
- Mind Stab is fine as is
-Berserker - Cripple is perfect for this weapon type.
-Illusionary Wave - Equivalent damage to the ranger knockback, 539. I would also not mind removing the knockback and bumping the damage to 700 with a condition such as 3 stacks of bleed or aoe cripple with a 10 second cooldown increase.

These changes, although they seem small, would certainly add a bam to the greatsword and make it a nice spiking weapon alongside MH sword.

Elite Skills

Moa Morph - Fine

Mass Invisibility - Yes, swiftness seems like a nice addition to this skill or maybe a regen effect.

Time Warp - fine

Trait Lines

Funny, my problem with the Mesmer's trait are because so many revolve around dazes and interruptions. I swear, there are like 15 traits (exaggeration). A little more variety will go nicely in the Mesmer trait line, but it's not terrible compared to other classes. I actually find myself upset I cannot pursue another trait line to pick up X trait.Unlike my elementalist, where I generally knew that 20 points would go in Arcane, 10 in Water, 10 Fire, 10 in Air and the remaining 20 points wherever I feel like it.

Downed State

The goal of the down state is to not save you 100%, but to give you a chance. The daze on the 2 skill would be helpful, and the teleport is pretty bad...a cloak like stated above would be excellent.

Conclusion

I doubt we would get a skill mechanic rework by now, but I think most of the mechanics are fine. Now I haven't played the class, and my reasoning is all second hand knowledge. If you feel I am incorrect in any form or manner, feel free to bring it up or correct me. From what I see, the only problem is number changing that is required.

Pretty much agree with everything here, except changing the knockback on GS. I wouldn't mind cry of frustration having the same cooldown as mind wrack either.

#38 Xrylene

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:57 PM

View PostNuu, on 01 July 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

This is blowing my mind right now....

Yes mind wrack & cry of frustration shatters need help, but the other 2 are fine. Swapping is ridiculous & I won't change my views on that. The Mesmer is already the most squishy class because of lack of attunements such as water/earth or life-steal/death shroud of necros & killing people requires damage. NOT swapping. As I said before, symbols will take care of that. Just swapping around delays the inevitable.

Moa being instant kill...? LOL hah. Right. There are 2 kinds of skills. Skills powering you up, or skills powering people down. This is the latter. Again, the Mesmer is the softest. Oh and umm....it's an elite. An ELITE. People aren't going to be popping elites all day anyways. Cool down. I've been Moa'd a lot as a Mesmer and I never died...so i can't exactly relate. And if you can talk about Moa, then what about Lich & guardian elites...?

The random nature of Mesmers is fine. And effective. Staffs inflicting burn and bleed is much more effective than short confusion. Confusion doesn't do that much (and is good that way) because it's supposed to mix w/other conditions. That's the point of the Mesmer. Confusion and randomness. If you all did the math, your see the "randomness" is much better. I'll make a video about it later...but I just don't get these suggestions...

TL;DR

Swapping - ridiculous
Moa Bird - Fine
"Randomness" - Fine -- conditions "random" damage output is not (I'll do the math later)
Shatters - yes need quite a bit of help
Confusion - fine -- more damage would be OP, but longer original durations would help.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm NOT saying the Mesmer is done. BUT I am saying majority of the things you all mentioned is completely left field.

You really don't think swapping is a more useful mechanic than shattering? Sure, our profession needs damage from somewhere, but it doesn't need to come so much from our core profession mechanic. Giving Mesmers swap would make them masters of positioning and elusiveness, which, by the way, is kind of something they're leaning towards as is. That and, the shatter mechanic isn't a good one anyway, I still don't see you suggesting anything better.

There are many transformation elite skills, but I'm sure if you took a look you'd notice a trend. The Mesmer's is the only one that transforms an enemy, and it is effectively a 10 second daze that can't be removed. For a game based off of ability usage, CC should be relegated to interrupts, not lockdowns, and that's what Moa Morph is, it's a lock down that requires zero effort from the Mesmer to pull off. An interrupt requires you to time a skill right to give you an opening or prevent a spell, but there's little to no timing involved with it. Other Elites empower a single target, who can be brought down if you try to fight them and outskill them, while Moa Morph basically only allows the ability to run away. While using LoS and evading indeed may be skills on their own, it's still not equivalent.

All I'm hearing here is you being a casual player. That is to say, you don't understand what competetive means, and why it requires no randomness. And incidentally, as I've said more than once, this game's PvP is intended to be competitive, being an E-Sport. To last as that, it has to be pure skill. At the moment, with random elements, it is not. If you like randomness, good for you, but it's your kind of views that aren't helpful to the game's integrity.


View PostShriketalon, on 01 July 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

The main problem with attempting iterative fixes on the Mesmer's main mechanic is that it is simply designed wrong.  So are many mesmer fixes (including some of my own :)), for the simple reason of overdesign.  Too many people approach the main mechanic as designing the way the class is supposed to play, rather than a way of enhancing all the ways a class can play.  A good mechanic does not dictate your playstyle, only improves upon the numerous builds the profession can bring to bear.

What does a Warrior do?  Smash, bash, crash, and dash his opponents to ribbons using every armament under the sun.  What does adrenaline do?  Crank up his chosen weapons to add more smashing, bashing, crashing, and dashing.  What does a Necromancer do?  Unleash disease, despair, and death upon his opponents to drag them downward to their doom.  What does life force do?  Give him an extra edge for surviving conflict in order to keep his head above the water while his opponent drowns.  What does a guardian do?  Smite his foes and protect his friends.  What do Virtues do?  Beef up smiting and protecting for himself and everyone else.  Good mechanics don't care how you play, they've got your back in every situation and enhance everything your profession is supposed to do.

A system that siphones away weapon skills just to fuel a cookie cutter gimmick like blowing up NPC does not qualify.  Shatters do not have the mesmer's back, nor do they enhance the playstyles available to the class or improve upon any style of play the mesmer wants to enjoy.  No quick fix is going to change this, nor will anything short of revising the main mechanic give the mesmer the flexibility it needs to fit into different game modes and present numerous ways to participate in different roles.

Someone I can agree with, you see, this is a large part of the reason for the mechanic suggestion in the first place. Trying to give Mesmers something that is always useful, that fits with what they can already do, and doesn't rely on particular builds to be useful at all.

What can a Mesmer do? Confuse, Decieve, Evade, Manipulate. Do shatters accomplish this? Not really, sure Cry of Frustration applies confusion, but it doesn't really confuse the player, distrortion does allow them to evade, but that's about it. What do swaps allow a Mesmer to do? Confuse and decieve enemies by swapping when they don't expect it, evade attacks, and manipulate the battlefield through superior positioning. That isn't to say that swapping is the only idea that can ever be utilized for the Mesmer's main mechanic, but it works with them better, and could easily work with all builds.

View PostNuu, on 01 July 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

-_-" let's not parse words. You know what I mean. I don't mean instant kill as in you cast, they die. I mean what you mean...which I think isn't true. It certainly is not a free kill. Anyways, it's whatever....

I hate to say this and I'm usually the one who argues for everything, but if you don't like the Mesmer...maybe instead of complaining, try to find some redeeming qualities. Xeph & other plays like dimensionPvP & other players have. A couple have acknowledged the Mesmer NEEDS help in certain areas yes. Especially damage for shatters (just a little bit more) and some fixing w/confusion...bugs etc, but some make it seem like its unplayable. No one has directly said that, but that's what's being implied. That these problems completely saturate the good aspects of the Mesmer. I won't say go pick another class, but I can't lie...I'm tempted to..I do sympathize because it seems the Mesmer needs a lot of help. But guys....

First before even talking about issues, let's see what you guys are doing? Do you have any video? What builds we're you playing? What gear did you use? What play style did you employ? I wanna hear about THAT first...then people talking about shatters sucking. Tell me you have over 1000 power & shatters only do like 30 damage (since mindwrack is based off power). Give me evidence first. We know the obvious: that shatter damage in general needs help & whatever among other things. I'm just saying, I'm tired of people asking for revisions when they clearly haven't thought about the remifications or reasons they're not already here, like swapping. Seriously....swapping. SWAPPING. How vanilla of a mechanic is that? Others have pets, death shroud, passive/active skills & attunements....and you want US to have swapping...? Ok.

Here's the core problem with your reasoning. All you see is Mesmers needing help, being underpowered. You don't see that it's not just a matter of the power of our profession, but of how clunky it is, how in the long run it will end up only being over or underpowered, not balanced. Shatters, simply put, are holding the profession back, because it's a mechanic we are reliant on that doesn't even work well, requires our weapon skills to have clones all over the place only to use as a resource, and is completely ineffectual if untraited. You could buff shatters to deal obscene damage, and Mesmers still wouldn't ultimately be fine. Think on that a moment.

As for builds, not that it should matter, but I've tried all weapons and probably all weapon combinations, I've tried clone factories, phantasms, mantras, stealth, support, mobility. I've tried both power and condition builds. The point isn't a lack of effectiveness entirely, I did well most of the time. The problem was, certain elements of the profession are lacking, unrefined, dependant on RNG, or simply not good design.

View PostXionix, on 01 July 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

That or someone learned to dodge and los properly. I only use time warp, but i've never died to moa (although i've been close decoy is there as soon as it drops). If it is overpowered or "toxic" then Anet will fix it eventually. I just can't grasp begging for nerfs with many other things needing higher priority than wah I died in a 1v1 because I forgot where my dodge key is.

Let me make something clear. I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm asking for a removal and replacement with something else. Whether you die to it or not, a 10 second daze doesn't belong in the game. I haven't died to it, but if you ever get hit by it, have fun not being able to do anything for 10 seconds.

View PostMerryem, on 02 July 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

I disagree completely. It's not like during Moa you can't move; you can still move. If we followed your ideals, skills like Endure Pain, buffs like Distortion, all would be removed as it's not "fair or fun". There are some really good uses for Moa; ex. You're fighting a 1v1 and you see an enemy Ranger come in from the side; you Moa the ranger, finish off the Warrior, stomp him and change your attention. That's called skilled use of Moa.

The invincibility or high damage reduction skills require good timing to make use of the effect, otherwise you will simply be ignored rather than absorbing a potentially dangerous spell and putting it on cooldown. On the other hand, being able to daze someone for 10 seconds to survive a 1v2 hardly sounds like skilled play, you're just using it because it's avilable, not timing it. You could do the same sort of thing in a more skillful sense if you used a normal duration daze or stun to open up just enough time to stomp one of the two, rather than having a 10 second window to do it. It doesn't get any easier than that.

View PostXeviant, on 02 July 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Perhaps a tweak to moa to make it a CC.  While one is a MoA your regen is increased so that way people cant wail on you excessively but you still take some dmg.  An other option would be to have direct dmg decrease its duration.  That said, Moa isn't like a stunlock, you can LoS, evade, etc.  One thing to consider, can it be dispelled like a condition? I've not seen that done, but that might be a way to balance it.

Even with that kind of stuff, 10 seconds are still too much to lock someone down. That'd be better, sure, but still wouldn't fix the issue. Direct damage sounds good in theory, but the result is dodge for 10 seconds, not being able to do anything, or let yourself take a bunch of damage just so that you can do things again. As far as I know, it can't be dispelled.

View PostTYphoon34, on 02 July 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Instead of trying to rework the class, wouldn't it be better to fix the current class. I believe it's entirely possible.

Shouts

Mind Wrack - Have it deal X amount of damage per clone. 1500-1800 per clone seems sufficient making for 4500-5400 damage with 3 clones and when traited  5400-6480 damage. That is a pretty nice burst amount for when the situation requires. Have Mind Wrack do this as a flat amount of damage, not influenced by critical chance, crit damage, power. I say nothing is wrong with allowing Sigils to affect it (5% more damage) but that is pretty much all.

Cry of Frustration - No problem here at all!

Confusion

Right now confusion is 80 damage without a condition damage build. 8 stacks of confusion (which is pretty easy to obtain I've seen) will cause 640 damage per attack.

Now, my math may be incorrect, but I heard Confusion follows the same Condition damage formula as bleeding, which means 20 condition damage equals 1 additional damage for a stack of confusion. Your average conditon damage focused build should have around 1300 condition damage. So we will work with 1300, an additional 65 damage per stack of confusion. Now confusion deals 1160 damage per attack, which is actually pretty respectable considering a condition damage build would be using more than just confusion to inflict their conditions. Now, builds centered around Confusion may not have much luck in -shutting down- their opponents, but 1160 damage is quite a bit for a SINGLE condition. If my math is incorrect and anyone has a recent, up-to-date formula for condition damage and confusion, please do let me know.

Weapon Skills

Scepter - Remove the clone from 1, increase the base damage to be a somewhat hard hitting skill. 459 per hit seems decent, comparable to the Elementalist's 1 skill on Scepter. Everything else is fine as is.

Sword OH - Bump up the damage of the Phantasm to about 1k-1.5k a strike.

Pistol - Fine
Torch - Fine
Focus - Fine
Staff - Fine

Greatsword - Ok, here we go. The greatsword should be our go to weapon for a bit of spike damage.
-Make Spatial Surge do equivalent damage to the Ranger's longbow 1 skill
  • 1000+ - 509 damage
  • 500-1000 - 302 damage
  • 0-500 - 254 damage
- Mirror blade is fine as is, maybe a bump to 300-350 damage
- Mind Stab is fine as is
-Berserker - Cripple is perfect for this weapon type.
-Illusionary Wave - Equivalent damage to the ranger knockback, 539. I would also not mind removing the knockback and bumping the damage to 700 with a condition such as 3 stacks of bleed or aoe cripple with a 10 second cooldown increase.

These changes, although they seem small, would certainly add a bam to the greatsword and make it a nice spiking weapon alongside MH sword.

Elite Skills

Moa Morph - Fine

Mass Invisibility - Yes, swiftness seems like a nice addition to this skill or maybe a regen effect.

Time Warp - fine

Trait Lines

Funny, my problem with the Mesmer's trait are because so many revolve around dazes and interruptions. I swear, there are like 15 traits (exaggeration). A little more variety will go nicely in the Mesmer trait line, but it's not terrible compared to other classes. I actually find myself upset I cannot pursue another trait line to pick up X trait.Unlike my elementalist, where I generally knew that 20 points would go in Arcane, 10 in Water, 10 Fire, 10 in Air and the remaining 20 points wherever I feel like it.

Downed State

The goal of the down state is to not save you 100%, but to give you a chance. The daze on the 2 skill would be helpful, and the teleport is pretty bad...a cloak like stated above would be excellent.

Conclusion

I doubt we would get a skill mechanic rework by now, but I think most of the mechanics are fine. Now I haven't played the class, and my reasoning is all second hand knowledge. If you feel I am incorrect in any form or manner, feel free to bring it up or correct me. From what I see, the only problem is number changing that is required.

Alright, now I understand that mesmer isn't a profession that you've played, only theorycrafted. So to clear one thing up first, numbers aren't actually the issue. In fact, if numbers really were th eonly issue, there would be no problems whatsoever because numbers we can guarantee would change even after release. On the other hand, when talking basic mechanics, those don't change so easily, and sadly, in the case of the mesmer, these are the problem.

So first off, Mind Wrack. Yes, the damage is too low right now, but the issue has more to do with dependency on it, it interacting badly with phantasms, requiring clones only to act as shatter fodder, generally being buggy, and feeling like busy work. By shattering at every opportunity, you are simply becoming even with other professions damage output, because that's what it's balanced to be, damage that we are required to do. Other professions give you a mechanic that enhances your gameplay, rather than demanding that you use the mechanic just to maintain status quo. Also, changing it to not scale at all pretty much would go against the standard that's set by pretty much everything else in the game.

Cry of Frustration is most definitely not fine. It has double the cooldown for no real reason, applies a condition that is difficult to balance, and just generally overlaps with Mind Wrack as just a source of damage, nothing more.

On Confusion, the problems are numerous. First off, stacking 8 stacks of confusion is actually difficult unless you are underwater, the only way that comes to mind at all is the scepter's third skill, Confusing Images, combined with Cry of Frustration. That would allow for 8 stacks, requiring three clones, and Cry Of Frustration to be up. That's an awfully specific situation, and only then does Confusion look decent damage-wise. Of course, the problem isn't just damage, but that Confusion at low levels is completely ignoreable, and at high levels acts as a daze or die. For example, using that same concept, and selecting Illusionary Persona and that one trait that gives all shatters an additional stack of Confusion, the result would be 13 stacks, so 1885 damage per attack. Remember also that it isn't capped per second, so let's say we use this on a thief and he uses one quick combo of a four abilities on you, that's 7540 damage. At that point, attacking or using abilities at all becomes foolish, which means that to survive, you must do nothing, IE, you are basically dazed. Combine that with condition duration increases, and the 33% boost to it's duration through a trait, and it gets silly.

For weapon skills, the scepter could still use a second way to generate clones, otherwise bumping up it's attack isn't something I'd complain about as it feels rather weak. Buffing the phantasm isn't the route I'd go to improving the offhand sword, because people would still pick the offhand pistol instead anyway, because it has both a high damage phantasm and a stun. I'd say definitely do not remove the knockback element of the fifth skill on greatsword, as it's about the only thing that gives it any utility period, the problemw ith it is it's focused on damage to the exclusion of everything else on a utility profession.

Moa Morph, as I keep saying, is not fine. Glad you agree on the swiftness effect on Mass Invisibility.

The interruption and daze tendency for Mesmers is because in GW1, they were basically just interrupt bots, nothing more. I wouldn't mind seeing  abit more variety myself, but as I said, Chaos needs some real changes.

The issue with the Mesmer downed state, is in PvP it will never help you due to no interrupts and too little damage to even finish of someone who's low without phantasms. Regardless of PvP, PvE, or what, the blink is currently useless as well.

View PostCulture Shock, on 02 July 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I think you've answered your own questions here.  In PvE content foes do quite often stop attacking when stacks of confusion are on them, I have this on video and have discussed this with several other Mesmers.  Also players who can't remove conditions with their  build have chosen to be without defense against ALL conditions and you said your self confusion is "no different than continual attacks".

Confusion can play a role in your damage whether the foe attacks or not because its not your only source of damage,  so to ignore it should be possible without instant death.  (it doesn't have to be cranked up to OP levels)  But does that mean foes SHOULD ignore it?  Auto-attacks are not  always the highest damage skills on your bar, but does that mean foes should ignore it?  Clones have a singular threat of damage in the future as they currently do almost zero damage while alive, these can arguably be ignored since they are for shatters according to Eric Flannum.  This is also "delayed" damage which one could arguably ignore.  Even health degeneration such as bleeding can arguably be ignored since it's slow, but does that mean you "should" ignore it?

The fact that Mesmers are still a major force to deal with in PvP is a testimony that Mesmers do in fact kill other players even with confusion only having one decent skill that applies it, says something to the cause.  Mesmers should have a profession condition or they become cheap half done Engineers with really pretty grenades.

In fact confusion along with skills such as empathy were passive damage that annoyed many other players because it did not have the "flash bang warning" that you are about to take damage.  Players would kill themselves because they didn't realize they were under a serious attack.  It's not that the skill was OP, it was just a bit too subtle for GW2, clean crisp visuals have taken care of that now.

If you research the lore of Mesmers you will see just how fitting confusion is to the class, and why it is a much better core mechanic than shatters.  I disagree with Anet for tying most of our class mechanics to illusion magic, because it was only one area of Mesmer magic.  I do like stuns, and dazes because without confusion they are all we have left of Domination Magic.  And chaos storm also counts.

First off, Mesmers regularily succeed in PvP without needing Confusion at all. In fact, they're probably better suited to just forget it exists and focus on phantasms or just raw power with mind wrack and regular attacks. You could remove Confusion entirely from them, and you wouldn't see a significant damage difference in any builds but the most focused condition damage ones. While I tried confusion builds, I spent most of my time succeeding with an all around build that focused on evasion and stealth more than anything, and I still killed plenty of people without need of confusion.

Let me aks you a question. You have 10k health, and the stacks of confusion on you will deal 1500-ish damage per ability you use. Do you fight, or do you try and run away and hope that the Mesmer doesn't apply more stacks or have a lot of condition duration? And as a reminder, the Mesmer is fully capable of attacking you even if you fight, meaning you will be taking that 1500 damage per ability use on top of whatever else they can throw at you. Which is the right answer? What I'm trying to say is, both are bad choices, they give the illusion of choice, which is a horrible mechanic. You either let them kill themselves, or not fight back and possibly get killed anyway.

You really don't see why they went the illusion route? A mesmer's abilities all had to do with attacking the targets mind. That is exactly what their illusions are, attacking their mind. Instead of being a debuff, it's become an actual manifestation. Your preference for stuns and dazes also makes it sound like you're a fan of the shutdown Mesmer, which couldn't even be called an actual profession, just an interrupt bot.

#39 Nuu

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostXrylene, on 02 July 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:


/snip

1. No, i'm not suggesting any radical changes because there are none needed. This ISN'T to say shatters, clone damage, traits, etc need modifications/slight improvements, but i'm not trying to completely revise a system that people are hurt over.

2. I'm not a "pro" player (yet at least), nor am i a casual player. Please don't insult me.

3. Moa is close to a daze, yes i can see that. But again, it's an elite. And it fits quite well with the mesmer's style of play. I would debate/argue this more, but i have a feeling neither of our views will change, so I give up on that point.

4. Shattering > swapping. Period.

5. Did you not hear about that mesmer team? they did very well, And like i said, i'll put up the math later, but the randomness isn't an issue. I don't know why you insist it is, when clearly, it's not. PLUS if you want to get into how swapping is at the "heart" of being a mesmer, then randomness is as well. But for the sake of argument, you have the chance to put up vulnerability, burn (1sec), bleed (7sec), or vulnerability...and get might (5sec) or fury (2sec). Combine virtually any two, the damage output ends up being similar. vulnerability + fury, bleeding + burn, might + fury,..either way the damage is relatively close to each other.

#40 TYphoon34

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostXionix, on 02 July 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Pretty much agree with everything here, except changing the knockback on GS. I wouldn't mind cry of frustration having the same cooldown as mind wrack either.

I offered 2 suggestions for the greatsword.

539 damage + knockback

700 damage + cripple or bleed.

I assume you disagree with the second option, which is perfectly fine. Thanks for your opinion, as stated, it's all theorycraft.



Quote

"Alright, now I understand that mesmer isn't a profession that you've played, only theorycrafted. So to clear one thing up first, numbers aren't actually the issue. In fact, if numbers really were th eonly issue, there would be no problems whatsoever because numbers we can guarantee would change even after release. On the other hand, when talking basic mechanics, those don't change so easily, and sadly, in the case of the mesmer, these are the problem."



Correct, I have not played Mesmer and my suggestions are theorycrafted. I think it is only numbers because the utilities for the Mesmer is great, the concept is great, we have some pretty decent elites. The only problem is that we don't seem a little threatening from a spike perspective. I've seen several great Condition Mesmers at play, and several decent MH sword damage builds that weren't too bad either. Seeing so many people being successful means at least something is right, just numbers need to be tweaked to offer variety. Could you give me a few examples on things you consider that are not number tweaking? Or am I about to read those? If they are below, ignore the posed question. BTW, thanks for your input, look forward to reading it!


Quote

"So first off, Mind Wrack. Yes, the damage is too low right now, but the issue has more to do with dependency on it, it interacting badly with phantasms, requiring clones only to act as shatter fodder, generally being buggy, and feeling like busy work. By shattering at every opportunity, you are simply becoming even with other professions damage output, because that's what it's balanced to be, damage that we are required to do. Other professions give you a mechanic that enhances your gameplay, rather than demanding that you use the mechanic just to maintain status quo. Also, changing it to not scale at all pretty much would go against the standard that's set by pretty much everything else in the game."



I don't think individuals are too dependent on Mind Wrack, in fact, I think the Mesmer's class mechanic offers more variety. As stated, I have not played Mesmer, but I come from playing the Elementalist. As an Elementalist, you were forced to use your profession mechanic or you died, simply put. If you wanted damage, you used Fire. No other attunements could match the damage of fire. If you needed to get away or kite, you used Air. No other attunements could match the mobility of air. If you needed healing/support, you used Water. No other attunements could match the support of Water. If you needed defense, you used Earth. No other attunements had the defense of earth. The result was a jumbled mess that made you feel that instead of having a choice, you were essentially forced into certain attunements just to survive. I feel the Mesmer's mechanic offers more freedom. I've certainly seen videos of Mesmers who didn't even touch Mind Wrack, they preferred to use Cry of Frustration, Distortion or Diversion instead. You stated other professions give you mechanics to enhance your gameplay, I personally do not feel this is so. Ranger's mechanic is terrible and as I stated earlier, Elementalist's mechanic was too constricting almost.


Quote

"Cry of Frustration is most definitely not fine. It has double the cooldown for no real reason, applies a condition that is difficult to balance, and just generally overlaps with Mind Wrack as just a source of damage, nothing more."



Once again, I have not played the class, so this is all in theory. Nevertheless, Cry of Frustration is fine personally. Below you stated yourself that Confusion can become very deadly in high stacks. I think Cry of Frustration is great for condition based builds, and I infact have seen it used multiple times by such builds. The only way you can really modify Cry of Frustration is to give it more stacks of Confusion. Since there is 3 clones, it only logically makes sense to apply X stacks per clone. At 2 stacks per clone, Cry of Frustration alone will deal 870 damage per attack. Add in other means of dealing confusion and other conditions, this would cause Condition builds to essentially be spike builds. 3 stacks is perfectly fine.  


Quote

"On Confusion, the problems are numerous. First off, stacking 8 stacks of confusion is actually difficult unless you are underwater, the only way that comes to mind at all is the scepter's third skill, Confusing Images, combined with Cry of Frustration. That would allow for 8 stacks, requiring three clones, and Cry Of Frustration to be up. That's an awfully specific situation, and only then does Confusion look decent damage-wise."



Once again, I have not played the class, but I do watch gameplay on youtube. I've seen several instances, even in non-scepter builds, of the opponent having 6-8 and even 12 stacks of confusion! You also have to consider how easily you can trait things to cause confusion. If you want to stack confusion and condition damage, you certainly can do so very easily. Now remember, the goal is not to have Confusion be viable on it's own, but rather grouped with other conditions that the Mesmer has access to.


Quote

"Of course, the problem isn't just damage, but that Confusion at low levels is completely ignoreable, and at high levels acts as a daze or die. For example, using that same concept, and selecting Illusionary Persona and that one trait that gives all shatters an additional stack of Confusion, the result would be 13 stacks, so 1885 damage per attack. Remember also that it isn't capped per second, so let's say we use this on a thief and he uses one quick combo of a four abilities on you, that's 7540 damage. At that point, attacking or using abilities at all becomes foolish, which means that to survive, you must do nothing, IE, you are basically dazed. Combine that with condition duration increases, and the 33% boost to it's duration through a trait, and it gets silly."



I am not sure what you mean by low levels, if you could, please further iterate on that statement. If you mean low by in actual character level, I just wanted to point out that Burning was pretty pitiful at low levels and infact, all Conditions I experimented with as an Elementalist and Ranger were pretty pitiful at low levels. If you are referring to low as in base damage without stacking Condition damage, then my response is, Of course it's weak! Can an individual who stacks Condition damage do a hit that deals 13k? I think not! Funny you mentioned the 13 stacks of Confusion. I watched a video in the past week where a Mesmer managed to get 12 stacks on a Thief (this mesmer was a condition damage build). Unfortunately, the Thief was a P/P Thief, and he thought the Confusion wasn't worth it...until he started seeing multiple 1700's pop up alongside the Mesmer's Burns and Bleeds and Illusionary Warlock. Needless to say, that Thief was down in 10 seconds. That is with the current Confusion, which does 80 base damage without Condition damage. Confusion does not need fixing. It works perfectly fine when you build for a strong, punishing Condition build. Once again, I have not played the class and this is all theory, but nevertheless, I feel Confusion is actually in a good place right now and don't understand why everyone want's it to be "fixed".

For those of you who think Confusion needs a damage increase, let me run some more numbers for you of 8 stacks of Confusion.

100 base without condition damage = 800 with 8 stacks - 165 with 1300 Condition damage = 1320 with 8 Stacks
150 base without Condition damage = 1200 with 8 stacks - 215 with 1300 Condition Damage = 1720 with 8 Stacks
200 base without condition damage = 1600 with 8 stacks - 265 with 1300 Condition damage = 2120 with 8 Stacks.

80 is a really nice sweet spot, rewarding those who build around condition damage. Remember, you cannot look at Confusion alone. Most builds centered around Confusion would have more than one way to inflict Conditons. Confusion with Bleed, Burn, Vulnerability and Illusions such as Duelist and Warlock creates for a very strong Condition centric build. In fact, I believe, in my personal theory, Mesmer is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, Condition classes.


Quote

"For weapon skills, the scepter could still use a second way to generate clones, otherwise bumping up it's attack isn't something I'd complain about as it feels rather weak."



Most weapons only have either 1 clone or 1 phantasm. Scepter does not need a second way to generate clones considering other weapon sets do not behave similarly. While keeping the third skill the same, a set up like:

Skill 1
  • Ether Bolt - Shoot a bolt to your target - 404 damage (Comparable to the Elementalist's 1 skill on Water/Air Scepter) > Ether Blast - Shoot a second bolt to your target inflicting Confusion - 323 damage (Comparable to the last strike of the previous 1 skill)
Skill 2
  • Ether Clone - Shoot a bolt to your target giving 1 stack of Confusion and summon a Clone that cast's Ether bolt - 293 damage - 15 second cooldown
These changes would make the scepter a viable range weapon alongside staff and greatsword that also has the potential for some condition damage.


Quote

"Buffing the phantasm isn't the route I'd go to improving the offhand sword, because people would still pick the offhand pistol instead anyway, because it has both a high damage phantasm and a stun."



That's the goal! Making the OH sword more viable. In fact, what if the Phantasm dealt 1.5k damage (half of the Duelist's full unload I believe) and did a 2-3 second immobilize. Would you be interested then? It would add to the viability of the melee mesmer, helping get off Blurred Frenzy. Superb synergy!


Quote

"I'd say definitely do not remove the knockback element of the fifth skill on greatsword, as it's about the only thing that gives it any utility period, the problemw ith it is it's focused on damage to the exclusion of everything else on a utility profession."



I apologize for the mishap, I offered two suggestions.

Suggestion 1
  • Bump knockback damage to 593 (comparable to the ranger knockback)
Suggestion 2
  • Remove knockback, increase damage to 700 and add a bleed or cripple.
Nothing is wrong with a focus on damage, as it allows more variety in builds. Certain people may enjoy a "glass cannon" Illusionist. To be honest, I personally see nothing wrong with the Greatsword and it seems like a pretty awesome weapon. Now once again, I have not played the profession and I played Elementalist previously. The greatsword is somewhat like the Fire Attunement bar. Now that I think about it, wouldn't it be nice synergy to have the Greatsword as your spike and then a scepter/torch or a staff as your other weapon for utility? Or sword/pistol for more spike damage. Besides the numbers, the idea behind greatsword is great.


Quote

Moa Morph, as I keep saying, is not fine. Glad you agree on the swiftness effect on Mass Invisibility. The interruption and daze tendency for Mesmers is because in GW1, they were basically just interrupt bots, nothing more. I wouldn't mind seeing  abit more variety myself, but as I said, Chaos needs some real changes. The issue with the Mesmer downed state, is in PvP it will never help you due to no interrupts and too little damage to even finish of someone who's low without phantasms. Regardless of PvP, PvE, or what, the blink is currently useless as well.

I really do find Moa Morph to be a unique skill that allows the Mesmer to control the tide of the battle (which is essentially what the class is about). I understand what you mean by being able to attack a "helpless" individual, but it is an elite skill and it only lasts 10 seconds. Other games I played have handled such transform skills in a manner such as increasing the opponent regeneration by 600%. Granted, these skills weren't "elite" and had a mere 30 second cooldown which could be brought down to 20 seconds with traits. As an elite skill, rendering your opponent useless for 10 seconds doesn't seem so bad, and can offer many unique strategies to the Mesmer.

Ah! It's interesting because the only stun and/or daze I know of is on the pistol and OH sword. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I agree Chaos needs some reworking. Many traits are lackluster.  

As stated earlier, I do not believe the goal of the down state is to "help" you 100%. Once again, as an elementalist, down state wasn't too useful unless your opponent was at a range and you weren't having a 1vsX where X > 1. I agree Blink is terrible, but down state as is seems ok to me, mainly if the illusion on 2 will gain the ability to daze instead of blind.

Thanks for your response and I look forward to hearing from you in the near future.

-Unfortunately, the quote function seems to not like me at the moment. I'll work on this issue immediately.

EDIT: I fixed the issue, seems the problem is there is a hard cap on the amount of quotes allowed in a post which is rather unfortunate.

Edited by TYphoon34, 02 July 2012 - 08:28 PM.


#41 Tzu Qui Jinn

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:06 PM

No offense to everyone, but Shattering is a fantastic mechanic, if you fully understand, the Mesmer is the Minion master replacement. BUT if clones do no damage, then shatter is a poor mechanic. Shatters make both, a great opening move and a great finnishing move, but that's about it. Clones come out fast, this is why, the shatter mechanic works well. But if clones just shatter, then might as well play something else.

#42 Bulldog

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:16 PM

Mesmer I love and hate you.  I want this profession to be good but there are so many holes in the profession right now.  It's obvious the profession was designed in a rush, because traits are all over the place, the main mechanic is just not working right, there are only 2 - 3 real options for weapons (because you feel suboptimal if using any others) and Anet has made it so we can essentially do 4 things well.  
1) minion bomber
2) mantra specialist
3) signet specialist
4) to a lesser extent phantasm dps
because the traits are geared toward those builds.  To me it feels more like we're seeing what should be an alpha version of this profession not beta with only 2 months left before launch.

Those who think this profession is going to get a revamp on mechanics are out of their minds because Anet has already said those are here to stay.  So what could be done with the profession?  What should be done with the profession?
I want to look at 4 different areas.  First class mechanics, second weapons, third traits, fourth I would like to breifly discuss the downed state.

1) Mechanics:  If the mechanics are here to stay then what kinds of things could and should Anet do to address the problems of this profession.
-Recharge times need to be address especially for diversion and distortion, even traited they stink.
-Clones and phantasms should be recognizeable on your UI as was stated by others for example solid purple for clone, purple circle for phantasm, and phantasms should not be replaced by clones nor should they be shattered unless the mesmer wants to.  This is pretty easy to accomplish for intstance say you want to use mind wrack you hit F1 any clones you have would shatter if you hit F1 a second time then any phantasms would shatter.  This lets the mesmer decide how they want to use their phantasms.
-The shatter animation needs to be looked at again because as is it plain out sux.  I understand that Anet wants to give players the ability to dodge or move away from the damage but my god if someone is kiting like they should be they can just run away from the shatter, and pet pathing is very bad I've seen illusions get stuck on corners, pillars etc.  If illusions teleported to their victim and pulsed or gave some kind of animation that took approximately a 1/2 second this would give people who had a dodge available a chance to use it.

2) Weapons: There are essentially 2-3 good weapon sets at this time, they are staff and either sword/torch or better yet sword/pistol.




-Greatsword wow this weapon went from being one of the best mesmer weapons to just plain meh.

Spatial surge relies on maximum distance to do maximum damage and without a way to cripple someone or out kite them it's never going to do anything close to it's max damage, either let it have a chance to cripple or make it so distance doesn't determine damage.

Mirror blade there is no need to create a clone and if Anet kept the clone then it should be at the primary target not the last target.

Mind stab....Why did Anet change this skill vulerablity is nice but seriously why can't we have a stun or a daze with this skill?   The time rooted in place for this skill will often get you hurt or killed.

The rest of the skills are fine.

-Staff the only real complaint I have is Chaos armor has very limited uses.  I personally would perfer an attack skill since the weapon only has 2 direct damage skills as is., but I can live with it how it is.

-Scepter this weapon is just not worth bringing because the damage output is horrible.  If the clones created by this weapon caused some kind of condition then this weapon might be worth it but as it stands I won't use it.

-Sword primary hand is great fix swap and I will be happy, the secondary skills I don't think both skills need to create an illusion why not have illusionary swordsman replaced with something that cripples similar to the warrior offhand impale call it imagined burden like the old GW skill.

-Torch this weapon works well when paired with sword.

-Pistol my only complaint here is that the stun and blind should be switched first stun, then daze, then blind, because I want the stun for my target not someone who is standing near by.  If they fix that the pistol would be perfect.

-Focus  I know the weapon is suppose to be defensive but as it is it has no real versatility to it. Idk what others think but I can't see myself using this for anything but WvW it's too situational especially with temporal curtain functioning the way it does.   I know traited this weapon has more versatilty but do I really have to trait a weapon just to make it more useful?  If this weapon stayed the way it is I'd be ok with it but it's just not one I would personally choose outside of WvW.


3) Traits I just want to quickly talk about traits.  My only complaint about traits is the way the traits are set up now it seems as though Anet is funneling players more into clone shattering and mantra usage.   As it stands there are 10 major Grandmaster traits 3 that improve mantras, 3 that enhance shatters, 2 that enhance signets, 1 that can help enhace daze, and 1 that helps with cloaking.  My question is why aren't there any major Grandmaster traits that help illusions do something while they are active, either helping keep them alive (maybe a chance to give them distortion), or increase dps or something?  Idk if this is intentional on Anets part or not but it makes me wonder.

4) The downed state is a problem and not because of the skills and not becuse it's good or bad for mesmer or any one class but because of the angle your looking at when downed you can't see crap and the ability to use teleport is greatly hampered by it.

The last thing I want to say is that as they stand right now clones are so fragile that they can be destroyed by at most 2 auto attacks.  I know Anet said they intend clones as shatter fodder or as a distraction but if aoe damage can take all your clones out in a couple of seconds then they certainly can't do either.  I really think Anet needs to come to grips with the idea that a clone needs low damage but high health if they are to function as intended, otherwise your lucky if you get any use out of them at all.
I think my biggest fear atm is that what happened to mesmers in GW1 will be what happens to them in GW2 they will be very desirable for PvP but can't get in a Pug in PvE.
I'd like to hear others thoughts about these ideas. :)

Edited by Bulldog, 02 July 2012 - 09:22 PM.


#43 Awake

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:55 PM

Couple of people have mentioned it already, but the Mesmer mechanics are pretty much set in stone and at this point probably aren't going to be changed. A developer already stated in a Q&A that these mechanics are pretty much final. I'm not saying that talking about ways to change them and alter them are pointless, but I don't think it's really going to do any good if the devs have already shut that door.

Things that are likely to be changed are flat numbers across the board, and traits. Things like the duration of some conditions, damage on certain abilities, dmg modifiers on traits, and trait shuffling within the trees.

I think a lot of people are underestimating how good the class actually is, and are underestimating how much playstyle variation can be altered by simply tuning the numbers on abilities. If there was an end line trait that upped the dmg of Mind Rack by 100% for example and had other shatter only focused traits, a build using that trait line would play drastically different than a trait line focused on Phantasm dmg where shattering would actually be detrimental to use often. Reversely the shatter build would have little use for phantasms since their main goal would be to bomb illusions as much as possible.

I really think all mesmer needs is more focused trait lines and some ability dmg adjustments, which could also be accomplished through traits.

#44 Culture Shock

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostXrylene, on 02 July 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:


Let me aks you a question. You have 10k health, and the stacks of confusion on you will deal 1500-ish damage per ability you use. Do you fight, or do you try and run away and hope that the Mesmer doesn't apply more stacks or have a lot of condition duration? And as a reminder, the Mesmer is fully capable of attacking you even if you fight, meaning you will be taking that 1500 damage per ability use on top of whatever else they can throw at you. Which is the right answer? What I'm trying to say is, both are bad choices, they give the illusion of choice, which is a horrible mechanic. You either let them kill themselves, or not fight back and possibly get killed anyway.

You really don't see why they went the illusion route? A mesmer's abilities all had to do with attacking the targets mind. That is exactly what their illusions are, attacking their mind. Instead of being a debuff, it's become an actual manifestation. Your preference for stuns and dazes also makes it sound like you're a fan of the shutdown Mesmer, which couldn't even be called an actual profession, just an interrupt bot.

You basically ignored the lore section of my post, also condition removal is in the game for ALL conditions, so taking 1500 damage per attack is still a choice which is not what you get with any other condition.  Also Illusion Magic was my preferred skill usage in GW1 so you can't lecture me about what illusions are and how they transfer the spells from GW1 into GW2.  My entire point is about "playstyle".  I never focused on using interrupts in GW1 either, so your assumption that I was a shut down Mesmer are also wrong.

My whole post is centered around having more than one playstyle, and if direct damage is all a Mesmer uses then it is just another Elementalist.  Without a trick to the damage then the entire profession is not unique anymore.  If you read through the "old Mesmer" thread which lasted about 2 years you will see all my posts on how illusions were a perfect way to bring "hexes" into GW2, however this is not what is being done with the way that clones are basically decorations until shattered and phantasms are taken out every time there are enough illusions up to shatter.

The current Mesmer doesn't offer the depth that the old Mesmer did, not because shut down is not there, but because of too many limitations on "play style".

I'll bring the lore to you since you didn't look it up:  http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Bloodstone

The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric. They broke the stone into five pieces. Four of these pieces represented the four schools of magic (each represents aggression, destruction, preservation, and denial), and the final piece, the Keystone, was needed to reassemble the Bloodstone. The five pieces were then tossed into the volcano, Abaddon's Mouth. Later, following an eruption, four of the pieces were spread across Tyria, while one remained on the Ring of Fire Island Chain, near the caldera.

...................................
So this is where my post is coming from, the bloodstone of denial is said to be where Mesmers get their magic from.  We also held the Elite skill called The Keystone which was needed to unlock the other magics.  This is the reason Mesmers were deemed as the "anti-class" or the undoing of all other classes.  So when you talk about getting rid of Confusion, you are basically tearing away a most important part of what makes Mesmers unique, also you must consider that ArenaNet phased in this condition only after Mesmers were revealed to keep us "old school" Mesmers from knowing ahead of time that our class was in the game.

So you're posts about excluding confusion don't just ruffle my feathers they pretty much exclude a large part of the players who made this class what it is in the first place.

#45 iamhung

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:57 PM

View PostBulldog, on 02 July 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

-Pistol my only complaint here is that the stun and blind should be switched first stun, then daze, then blind, because I want the stun for my target not someone who is standing near by.  If they fix that the pistol would be perfect.



I used the pistol for the first time last stress test. It does stun the target.

Edited by iamhung, 07 July 2012 - 10:58 PM.


#46 Zebes

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:46 AM

Quote

My whole post is centered around having more than one playstyle, and if direct damage is all a Mesmer uses then it is just another Elementalist. Without a trick to the damage then the entire profession is not unique anymore. If you read through the "old Mesmer" thread which lasted about 2 years you will see all my posts on how illusions were a perfect way to bring "hexes" into GW2, however this is not what is being done with the way that clones are basically decorations until shattered and phantasms are taken out every time there are enough illusions up to shatter.

The current Mesmer doesn't offer the depth that the old Mesmer did, not because shut down is not there, but because of too many limitations on "play style"


I think this is the saddest thing about where the Mesmer is right now in terms of development. Illusions are just simple, repeating attacks and then shatter fodder. I was hoping Illusions would be able to be reactive in the way hexes were. Instead of just attacking at set intervals, I was hoping that they'd unleash an attack if their target remained inactive. (Like a conversion of the Wastrel Hexes.) I was hoping for an Illusionary Monk that would heal every time the Mesmer took on a condition. I was hoping for the Illusions to be more thoughtful and create more interesting choices. The only hard choice an Illusion makes is due to damage output. They're just dots in that manner. Maybe they call them phantasms because they all work like Conjure Phantasm. =\

#47 Bulldog

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:03 PM

View Postiamhung, on 07 July 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

I used the pistol for the first time last stress test. It does stun the target.
Nice I didn't get to play much the last stress test and what time I did I didn't use the pistol.  I've been making that same suggestion to Anet for months, and I guess others have too.  As it stood the skill made no sense blinding your target and dazing and stunning nearby foes.  Thanks for the info. :D

#48 Stumi

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:06 PM

I think this sort of screws over anyone (like me) that wants to use a phantasm based build.  I practically cringed when you said that they should be utilities.  Maybe you can have a trait that changes all weapon skill phantasms to clones?  The illusionary duelist and berserker work very well for me, and I basically love the phantasms.  If they all become utilities, than I wont be able to have any defensive utilities or condition removing ones since, If I want phantasms, Ill be forced to switch those for them.

#49 CrunkJuice2

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:43 PM

Quote

The fact that phantasms are shattered as well as clones makes the Shatter mechanic pretty much useless to any phantasm based build

so phantasm is the way to go if you wanna roll a mesmer but have it be more focused on something that isnt just clone shattering for your damage or whatever

cuz i mean,maybe theres something thats happened between the time ive not really payed attention anymore to mesmers but i thought there pretty much was no way of playing one without having to micro manage a bunch of clones and stuff.i dont know,i like the whole deception thing that mesmers have goin on.its just i dont really wanna have to micro manage a bunch of clones and stuff

Edited by CrunkJuice2, 08 July 2012 - 11:48 PM.


#50 Tinucle

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 01:54 AM

I think shattering is a cool mechanic, but i wish that the class mechanic of such an interesting, unique and creative class as the mesmer wasnt limited to just shattering.  Think of something like this:

F1: The same as it is now, but instead only cloes would run up and explode, as shattering a phanstasm doesnt make sense. (they can do 1-2k damage every 3-4 seconds, whoy would you get rid of them for 1-2k damage once?)

F2: (Just clones) Still confuses the target, but instead of running up to the target they would all immediately turn into purply shiny ghostly energy enter the targets body (like when spirits enter/exit their bodies in most movies and stuff) think how cool it would look.

F3: (Just clones) This is what i would like to be changed, instead of a ranged silence, after pressing F2 you would swap places with a random clone, and leave a clone behind at your current location, any player who attacked that clone would be dazed for one second, and the clone would have the current shattering animation thats in the game right now. I thiink this would be very neat and would time in quite well with the whole mesmer elusiviness. Imagine this scenario: A warrior charges at you, you press F2 get out of that location instantly and when he attacks "you" you just shatter right in front of him, and he is unable to use any skills for a second, (representing that he is dazed, confused in the literal sense of the word)

F4: Still momentary ivulnerability just as now, but instead of the clones shattering in their current place, they would all turn into the same ghostly essence described in F1 but instead enter the mesmers body, thus symbolizing their sacrifice as clones to protect you for a few seconds. (Of course you would be ivulnerable from the moment you activate the skill, not only after the clones reach the mesmer.)

Of course these are just suggestions, which i thought of just now, but I wished that the 4 class mechanical skills would feel and look a bit different from each other, as of right now its like we have the same ability with just differrent effects. Imagine if all the rangers arrows looked exatly the same, but one slowed, one poisoned, one crippled, etc. But they dont, they each have a diffrent animation, particle effect or model to tie them to their purpose/effect.

I would really LOVE is the mesmer shatters, being class mechanic skills and thus being very definig for the mesmer as a class and consequentially tied to every kind of build, would have the same treatment.

Does anyway have better ideas that follow in the same thoughts as mine? Not complete reworks, but maybe some visual and working tweaks so that each shatter felt more unique?

Edited by Tinucle, 09 July 2012 - 01:54 AM.


#51 SCLOBERNOCKER47

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:31 PM

Great ideas there, but wicked OP.

Your F1 would provide too much dmg and cause the rest of our numbers to be tweeked. Not really solving anything.
F2, I could live with that one. I always thought illusions bursting where they stand was a quick fix for the lag caused by them running (not to mention dying on the way there)
F3 is retarded. You cant possibly think RANDOMLY swapping places with clones is in any way balanced. As of right now you have to waste time finding the right mesmer (even if thats just tab-targeting). Now, melee will be SEVERELY punished. After they waste time finding you (even if not alot) and they get to you, you randomly swap and they have to start all over again? Not gonna happen.

#52 That Happy Cat

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:56 PM

I like the idea of Shattering personally, it's just that the current implementation is clunky and often not useful. I think Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration could be merged into a single Shatter, and a new Shatter that bestows Stealth could be added.

Edited by That Happy Cat, 09 July 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#53 Tinucle

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostSCLOBERNOCKER47, on 09 July 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Great ideas there, but wicked OP.

Your F1 would provide too much dmg and cause the rest of our numbers to be tweeked. Not really solving anything.
F2, I could live with that one. I always thought illusions bursting where they stand was a quick fix for the lag caused by them running (not to mention dying on the way there)

Thank you for taking the time to read them, but how can my F1 description be OP? I didnt change anything. All I said is that only clones would shatter, and not phantasms. Because phantasms are much more usefull lasting for 20 to 30 seconds or however long the fight lasts, then being blown up for the current Mind Wrack`s mediocre damage.

View PostSCLOBERNOCKER47, on 09 July 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Now, melee will be SEVERELY punished. After they waste time finding you (even if not alot) and they get to you, you randomly swap and they have to start all over again? Not gonna happen.

And yes, My F3 sounds a bit off, I just made it up then and there. I do very much like the idea that a mesmer should have an ability sort of like what i described. I guess decoy is sort of like that, but does the clone we leave behind is our actual model, or do we vanish and a clone appears nearby? (I was always the mesmer and not the enemy, thus hard to really notice it)

And melees have many gap closers, imobalizers and the choice to have ranged attacks. And that would have a  long cooldown, its nothing but another blink. Blink isnt OP.


On another term, do any of you play League of Legends? You guys know WuKong`s ability DECOY? In League its really clear how he stealths and the clone he leaves behind is his actual body which can make for pretty funny jukes and stuff. Does the mesmer ability Decoy look about the same from an enemy perspective?

Either that or we could have a decoy where we would stealth and our body would keep running the direction it was before for about 2 or 3 seconds and then shatter, that would also be a nice juke.

My frustrations are that the mesmer has so many interesting possibilities for its skills and class mechanics and the ones we got stuck with are really not that creative and all our F1 - F4 look the same. The class feels rushed.

Edited by Tinucle, 09 July 2012 - 10:05 PM.


#54 SCLOBERNOCKER47

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostTinucle, on 09 July 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Thank you for taking the time to read them, but how can my F1 description be OP? I didnt change anything. All I said is that only clones would shatter, and not phantasms. Because phantasms are much more usefull lasting for 20 to 30 seconds or however long the fight lasts, then being blown up for the current Mind Wrack`s mediocre damage.

I admittedly misread your F1 description.
Thought you meant for it to shatter 1 illusion at a time, while maintaining the current overall numbers.

I really feel Anet WANTS you to choose between shatter builds and phantasm builds. You still need to use both to maximize your potential, but you can only really specialize in one.

#55 EphraimGlass

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:46 PM

View PostSCLOBERNOCKER47, on 09 July 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

I really feel Anet WANTS you to choose between shatter builds and phantasm builds. You still need to use both to maximize your potential, but you can only really specialize in one.

That would be a legitimate choice for them to make but in that case, it's my opinion that shattering shouldn't be the core mechanic of the profession.  The core mechanic should be something that has some place in all/most of the strategies that the profession can employ.

#56 blakdoxa

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:53 PM

If there's one thing I know...the traits are jacked up and tossed in weird places.
Tried to make a scepter+focus build that won't ever work due the scepter being a clone factory and focus traits being lodged in inspiration where the phantasm builds are. Go figure.

#57 Tinucle

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 10:57 PM

View PostSCLOBERNOCKER47, on 09 July 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

I really feel Anet WANTS you to choose between shatter builds and phantasm builds. You still need to use both to maximize your potential, but you can only really specialize in one.

Yea, but If I specialize in phanstasm builds, Shattering is counter productive and I`m forced not to have any class mechanic abilities... That sucks. Class mechanics should work\tie into with every build, not just one.

Think of a Warrior build that makes his class mechanic ability unviable. Or a Necro`s...  The fact that to play a phantasm build F1 through F4 have very little use as phantasms are much harger to obtain then clones, and are not disposable.

#58 nverbe

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:47 AM

View PostTinucle, on 09 July 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

Yea, but If I specialize in phanstasm builds, Shattering is counter productive and I`m forced not to have any class mechanic abilities... That sucks. Class mechanics should work\tie into with every build, not just one.

Think of a Warrior build that makes his class mechanic ability unviable. Or a Necro`s...  The fact that to play a phantasm build F1 through F4 have very little use as phantasms are much harger to obtain then clones, and are not disposable.

This isn't quite true.  I've posted it in like 3 other threads, and so I don't want to go through all of the explaination again. so I'm copy and pasting parts of the conversation here that sorta explain how it work and the supporting mathematics. Here is an EXAMPLE of how you can use shatters in a build that specializes in phantasms to increase their DPS.

Spoiler

Edited by nverbe, 10 July 2012 - 05:51 AM.


#59 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:28 PM

View Postblakdoxa, on 09 July 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

If there's one thing I know...the traits are jacked up and tossed in weird places.
Tried to make a scepter+focus build that won't ever work due the scepter being a clone factory and focus traits being lodged in inspiration where the phantasm builds are. Go figure.
Yes, I have this same issue with the scepter and not just for scepter+focus. A fellow mesmer guildie and I were discussing this a few days ago and it concluded in "the scepter being bad is why we didn't really use focus except for swiftness between fights"

---

+1 to nverbe

I don't know why people looking at phantasm builds completely ignore the fact that while your phantasm is still up, the ability to resummon it will come off cooldown, so it isn't horrible to shatter it for some quick burst while also summoning its replacement. The math for the phantasm attack timing w/ shatters is just icing on the cake there.

#60 blakdoxa

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:47 PM

View PostSebrent_Tehroth, on 10 July 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yes, I have this same issue with the scepter and not just for scepter+focus. A fellow mesmer guildie and I were discussing this a few days ago and it concluded in "the scepter being bad is why we didn't really use focus except for swiftness between fights"

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+1 to nverbe

I don't know why people looking at phantasm builds completely ignore the fact that while your phantasm is still up, the ability to resummon it will come off cooldown, so it isn't horrible to shatter it for some quick burst while also summoning its replacement. The math for the phantasm attack timing w/ shatters is just icing on the cake there.
I haven't seen focus used seriously as a pvp weapon at all. It doesn't work with scepter at all and players only kept them as a swiftness booster outside their main off hands. It could work with sword...but sword is just too good with either torch or pistol to worry about using a focus.





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