50 replies to this topic

[Nicator]

stabbystabstab, on 06 July 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Immobilize, chill and knockdown are defensive skills? ಠ_ಠ
I don't think Warriors have most of its U-skills 'dedicated' to defense, but passive mitigation from baseline hp and armor makes a huge difference.

Yes, they are. Chill and Knockdown especially, as they keep enemies from attacking you. Immobilize and cripple can be used less directly for that purpose as well (melee immunity if you keep your distance). The whole purpose is to keep foes from attacking you, which is exactly how thieves with low HP should aim to play the role of survivability.

[CrunkJuice2]

CCTim2012, on 05 July 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Thief is the easiest profession to play and master, bad mechanics cause brain dead game play. Thief is the noob class of GW2, spam unload / LDB etc then auto attack like a tard.

No wep switching, initiative = shit frequance of abilities used gg.

but what about playing a thief and not relying on spamming leaping death blossom/unload.is it still fairly easy to play,cuz i dont know.thiefs didnt really seem faceroll to me due the way there resource system was set up plus for a melee class ive heard there pretty squishy also

Edited by CrunkJuice2, 06 July 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[Sithaco]

I don't even use LDB, because most of my fights I like to be 1 on 1, I just use heartseeker, I find LDB to be a bit more useful against multiple foes.

Edited by Sithaco, 06 July 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[CrunkJuice2]

Sithaco, on 06 July 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

I don't even use LDB, because most of my fights I like to be 1 on 1, I just use heartseeker, I find LDB to be a bit more useful against multiple foes.

hmm,but i dont know.im still trying to decide what weapon set up i wanna go with i was thinkin about maybe goin with sword/pistol or dagger/pistol.whatever has the most burst damage out of the 2

i know playstyle wise though i kinda like the sound of sword/pistol better then dagger/pistol but maybe dagger/pistol has more burst

Edited by CrunkJuice2, 06 July 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[xLOKIx0830]

Sithaco, on 06 July 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

I don't even use LDB, because most of my fights I like to be 1 on 1, I just use heartseeker, I find LDB to be a bit more useful against multiple foes.

LDB was only useful to me at the beginning of a fight. By applying a lot of bleeds, you can start dealing pressure to the enemy and slowly lower his hp. Once it gets to 66%, just spam heart seeker and you win.

[sty0pa]

stabbystabstab, on 06 July 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Immobilize, chill and knockdown are defensive skills? ಠ_ಠ
I don't think Warriors have most of its U-skills 'dedicated' to defense, but passive mitigation from baseline hp and armor makes a huge difference.

passive mitigation ha ha ha.

Armor "heavy" vs "light" is a "massive" 15% difference.
Heavy vs medium (thief) is what, about 8%?
Thief does have 'low' health vs warrior/guardian 'high' health, which is about a factor of 6, so that's huge.

But then again, as long as evasion is avoiding (ie not simply reducing) incoming damage, that's almost irrelevant.

[stabbystabstab]

sty0pa, on 06 July 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

passive mitigation ha ha ha.

Armor "heavy" vs "light" is a "massive" 15% difference.
Heavy vs medium (thief) is what, about 8%?
Thief does have 'low' health vs warrior/guardian 'high' health, which is about a factor of 6, so that's huge.

But then again, as long as evasion is avoiding (ie not simply reducing) incoming damage, that's almost irrelevant.

And 8% is not "massive" because?? This isn't WoW so classes don't get random damage reduction thrown into every 2nd spell/specs. But then again every player in the game never gets hit because they all have perfect evasion timing, so taking less damage is almost irrelevant?

[Shinimas]

Quote

Thief does have 'low' health vs warrior/guardian 'high' health

Guardian has low health, same as Thief.

Quote

This isn't WoW so classes don't get random damage reduction thrown into every 2nd spell/specs.

What? Different spells have different Power scaling, speccing into Toughness traits increases defenses, there are lots of passive defenses in traits, procs on sigils and runes etc.

Quote

And 8% is not "massive" because??

Because it's not. It's noticable, but classes with lighter armor have special defensive mechanics. Like Stealth, more evasive abilities, Protection boon etc. Not saying that it's all balanced, but you can't just point at armor or health and go "I've low health! Gimme more damage!".

[Epic_Bear_Guy]

Shinimas, on 05 July 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

So all we need to do is run away. What a great combat strategy for a capture-the-point style game!

Anyone can plink from a safe distance and then charge in to steal a kill. Thief isn't even the best in this.



And that shows that you know nothing of the game. It doesn't matter what class they are, it's all about the build. Glass-cannon Warriors and Guardians die in 5 seconds unless they pop a defensive cooldown.

I think the issue has more to do with the game mode and less to do with the profession imo. We'd be the superior class if the gametype was capture the flag for example. Conquest is just not a very good game mode for the thief because the thief's just not as sustainable as other professions who can hold down capture point's due to defensive capabilities, and skills.

Edited by Epic_Bear_Guy, 06 July 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[CCTim2012]

CrunkJuice2, on 06 July 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

but what about playing a thief and not relying on spamming leaping death blossom/unload.is it still fairly easy to play,cuz i dont know.thiefs didnt really seem faceroll to me due the way there resource system was set up plus for a melee class ive heard there pretty squishy also

I don't understand where people like you come from.

1. There are no melee professions in GW2. There are melee builds.

2. Initiative by design promotes spamming of a single skill for max benefit, especially thanks to certain traits increasing the effects of a certain skill, instead of the weapon.

[Tilcir]

CCTim2012, on 05 July 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Yes you do play as a tank, seriously go watch some interviews of Arenanet instead of making dumb comments. They said that tanking in GW2 is based on avoiding damage by evades and absorb effects, instead of taking damage and having a healer healing you.

Lol ok

You go tank away all you want

[CCTim2012]

Tilcir, on 06 July 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Lol ok

You go tank away all you want

You could also say "thanks for enlightening me" instead of leaving behind a post with 0 arguments and saying "hurr durr lol ok" as if that improves your position in this argument.

The aggro system in this game is specially designed so people can tank regardless of profession, I sure as hell will have a lot of fun tanking on my thief with Black Powder, Smokescreen, Caltrops and the Signet which restores endurance combined with dodges and traits spend on improving dodging and blinding opponents.

You were wrong, now move on.

[Tilcir]

CCTim2012, on 06 July 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

You could also say "thanks for enlightening me" instead of leaving behind a post with 0 arguments and saying "hurr durr lol ok" as if that improves your position in this argument.

The aggro system in this game is specially designed so people can tank regardless of profession, I sure as hell will have a lot of fun tanking on my thief with Black Powder, Smokescreen, Caltrops and the Signet which restores endurance combined with dodges and traits spend on improving dodging and blinding opponents.

You were wrong, now move on.

Tanking and taking hits (or in this case avoiding hits) are not the same thing.

Look, when you use the word "tanking" or the word "tank", most people will think of how a tank works in almost all other MMO's

That you make up your own MMO meaning for it here in GW2 is cute, but it won't stick, for the simple reason that anytime you bring it up, almost everyone else will remember, that this is GW2, the game that did away with tanking.

Tanking is widely know as the ability to mitigate damage and to HOLD AGRO.
If you center everything on mitigation and nothing is hitting you (since you most likely will hit like a sissy), then you have a bunch of wasted talents.

And what the hell do you know of the agro system in this game?
Do you know something the rest of us don't know?
If you do PLEASE enlighten me.

[CCTim2012]

Tilcir, on 06 July 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Tanking and taking hits (or in this case avoiding hits) are not the same thing.

Look, when you use the word "tanking" or the word "tank", most people will think of how a tank works in almost all other MMO's

That you make up your own MMO meaning for it here in GW2 is cute, but it won't stick, for the simple reason that anytime you bring it up, almost everyone else will remember, that this is GW2, the game that did away with tanking.

Tanking is widely know as the ability to mitigate damage and to HOLD AGRO.
If you center everything on mitigation and nothing is hitting you (since you most likely will hit like a sissy), then you have a bunch of wasted talents.

And what the hell do you know of the agro system in this game?
Do you know something the rest of us don't know?
If you do PLEASE enlighten me.

1. Tanking is both taking hits and avoiding hits, hence every mmorpg has tanks who have "avoidance" by dodging, parrying or blocking.

2. So? What is my fault if people automatically link Tanking in GW2 with how it works in all the shit mmorpg's out there? Their ignorance and stupidity is not my problem or responisbility.

3. I didn't make up my own meaning, if anyone made up his own meaning of tanking it is you, because you claim that tanking is only about taking damage and getting healed, this is not true, look at point 1 :3

4. Guild Wars 2 didn't remmove tanking, they didn't remove healing either. They removed DEDICATED TANKING CLASSES and DEDICATED HEALING CLASSES. Hude difference. When it comes to tanking and healing, arenanet removed the emphasis on the taking damage and healing it up and made it more focused on absorbing and aoviding damage. This came out of the mouth of one of the lead designers in a video interview that is still on youtube, but I cba finding it.

5. The aggro in GW2 works like a charm, whoever is closest will get attacked in the "most" cases. Certain bosses will have a more intelligent way of attacking a party.

Edited by CCTim2012, 06 July 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Engel Jorgenson]

Tilcir, on 06 July 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Tanking and taking hits (or in this case avoiding hits) are not the same thing.

Look, when you use the word "tanking" or the word "tank", most people will think of how a tank works in almost all other MMO's

That you make up your own MMO meaning for it here in GW2 is cute, but it won't stick, for the simple reason that anytime you bring it up, almost everyone else will remember, that this is GW2, the game that did away with tanking.

Tanking is widely know as the ability to mitigate damage and to HOLD AGRO.
If you center everything on mitigation and nothing is hitting you (since you most likely will hit like a sissy), then you have a bunch of wasted talents.

And what the hell do you know of the agro system in this game?
Do you know something the rest of us don't know?
If you do PLEASE enlighten me.

A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, MMORPGs and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks and/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, or alternatively evasiveness and misdirection.^[1] Tanks are also frequently very strong and slow/heavy.^{[citation needed]}
Tanks are often represented as large or heavily armored.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....i/Tank_(gaming)

===> Move on...

[Tilcir]

Engel Jorgenson, on 06 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, MMORPGs and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks and/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, or alternatively evasiveness and misdirection.^[1] Tanks are also frequently very strong and slow/heavy.^{[citation needed]}
Tanks are often represented as large or heavily armored.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....i/Tank_(gaming)

===> Move on...

Wait I am confused here, why are the "/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units" in bold here?

You mean... like taunting or holding agro?

[Sintel]

Hmmm I thought ArenaNet was rather clear that a player can do whatever they wanted-be it control, support, or damage-as long as they know how to do it.

Plus, isn't "tanking" a bit of an obsolete term in this game? Like "healer".

Edited by Tinzi, 06 July 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[Engel Jorgenson]

I mean focus the attention of the target, not necessarily take his shots. Obviously you have a wrong definition of what a tank, and it's not because you will proclaim the truth of what you said they are going to be as authentic. Review your judgment perhaps. A little humility would be a good omen on the other hand. This is not a taunt is a reminder of the meaning. As far as I know GW2 does not include the concept of agro. This is off topic, irrelevant, out of context. Unless a jurisdiction allows it I do not see how you plan to redefine the combat system. On this ...

[Tilcir]

CCTim2012, on 06 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

1. Tanking is both taking hits and avoiding hits, hence every mmorpg has tanks who have "avoidance" by dodging, parrying or blocking.

2. So? What is my fault if people automatically link Tanking in GW2 with how it works in all the shit mmorpg's out there? Their ignorance and stupidity is not my problem or responisbility.

3. I didn't make up my own meaning, if anyone made up his own meaning of tanking it is you, because you claim that tanking is only about taking damage and getting healed, this is not true, look at point 1 :3

4. Guild Wars 2 didn't remmove tanking, they didn't remove healing either. They removed DEDICATED TANKING CLASSES and DEDICATED HEALING CLASSES. Hude difference. When it comes to tanking and healing, arenanet removed the emphasis on the taking damage and healing it up and made it more focused on absorbing and aoviding damage. This came out of the mouth of one of the lead designers in a video interview that is still on youtube, but I cba finding it.

5. The aggro in GW2 works like a charm, whoever is closest will get attacked in the "most" cases. Certain bosses will have a more intelligent way of attacking a party.

First of all, let me just be clear on one thing.

I actually agree with your basic concept, that the thief can be played as an up front character, that will avoid or in some way mitigate damage.

I am however not sure they are in the higher brackets of the professions for doing this, but I am not saying they are not. In GW2 I think they SHOULD be just as viable as any of the other professions for this.

I am only marking the use of the word tank for this though. I thought you were confused about the concept in GW2 compared to the standard MMO's (I apologize if that is not the case)

I also think that with the layout we have been given from the games side, with the focus on the new and improved trinity, we might as well use the terms from there.

Control, Support and DPS

If we use those terms, are your claim then, that the thief is one of the better professions in terms of control?
There is much more than simply tanking implied in this. The tools the thief gets, it seems to me, actually screams control. They decide when are were they fight. They decide when the fight is over.

What do they have in terms of support that will help them avoid damage? (Support is also the skills that only work on yourself)

I am very interested in the thief, and its one of my top choices. However, I do not see it at being especially better at any meta role than any of the other professions.
And it seems to me, that they are at the lower end for actually being toe to toe, again compared to the other classes.

Tinzi, on 06 July 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Hmmm I thought ArenaNet was rather clear that a player can do whatever they wanted-be it control, support, or damage-as long as they know how to do it.

Plus, isn't "tanking" a bit of an obsolete term in this game? Like "healer".

Thank you, it was the term more than anything I was pointing at in my above posts.

[Engel Jorgenson]

Tilcir, on 06 July 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

What do they have in terms of support that will help them avoid damage? (Support is also the skills that only work on yourself)

Venomous Aura, Shadow Refuge, Bountiful Theft, Thrill of the Crime, control via Venoms, ...... and more...

[Lokheit]

sty0pa, on 05 July 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I would agree with you, because I'm going to try the thief as a tank.

It's in Anet's basic design: Heavy armor protects a whopping (/sarcasm) 15% more than light.  That's it.

If 85% of your 'character protection' is supposed to be about dodging and avoiding damage in the first place, the best character for tanking is going to be the one with the best tools for dodging and avoiding damage. Anyone who says a warrior (for example) should be a tank because of his 'ability to take damage' simply hasn't played a warrior.  Certainly, in addition to the 15% armor bonus, warriors can have shields, but all that does is give you an occasional bubble during which you can't contribute, so lacking any sort of aggro-control tools means that bubble doesn't help much.

You (and a lot of players) forget an aditional factor: Professions are divided aditionally into another tier list: Base HP.

This division isn't really explained (bigger armor obviously implies more defense, but every profession use the same body models so there shouldn't be HP difference), but it's there, and aditionally, the HP bonus (translated into vitality atribute points) is muuuuuch higher (A LOT!) than armor bonus (translated into toughness atribute points), to the point where a Mesmer with Light Armor and medium tier health, can take more sustained damage (without the use of skills or player skill to evade attacks) than a Guardian with his Heavy armor but low tier health. Of course Guardians can be build to defend themselves in long fights as we've seen, but they need to focus on it and sacrifice all their offense as we've seen too.

The Warrior is top tier in both cases, including HP tier which is the one that really matters, so initially he's a profession that doesn't need to FOCUS on defense to actually be better on defense than others. Same could be said about the Necromancer, the second best at taking damage with an aditional health bar with Death Shroud.

And that's the great thing about the Warriors, they can go all offense and still have high survivality, well above average. And that's without focusing on defense. There are good defensive builds for the Warrior, and the Dodge key is there for everyone and the Warrior has access to multiple ways of refilling it.

Of course I'm not saying a Thief should be compared to a Warrior. They are 2 completly different professions and I don't want the Thief to be played the same way, but that statement was far from reality as Warriors actually are great tanks, and aditionally can tank without sacrificing all their offensive abilities.