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Thieves Burn? Condition SPvP Build

thief burn condition stournamnent bleed pvp poison condition damage burning Balthazar

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#1 TronJeremy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:35 AM


So strolling through the runes I come across the Rune of Balthazar.


This changed my condition application builds completely. Burn's hit hard per tick. And this allows for a 3s burn cast on foes around you every time you heal.

The current build was similar to a build with just bleeds and poison, but adding burn to the mix changes everything.

Pistol and Dagger for one on one.

Shortbow for multiple foes.

Everything in the build seems to efficiently work with more than one skill.



Healing will grant 4 initiative, cast vigor, and burn foes.

Dodging will cast swiftness, and drop caltrops casting bleed/cripple.

Stealing will grant 3 initiative, apply poison/weaken, and cast protection and regeneration.





Let me know what you think.




Check the build out here.
http://en.gw2codex.com/build/3949/show





Power :1925

Precision :916

Toughness :1016

Vitality :1660

Attack :2970

WeaponDamage :1045

ConditionDamage :1223

CritChance :4

CritDamage :0

Armor :2080

Defense :100

HP :18245

Healing :100




Equipment.


Carrion's Amulet + Jewel


Sigil of Smoldering  - Pistol and Short bow

Sigil of Geomancy - Dagger offhand.



Rune of Balthazar

+25 power +15% burning duration +50 power You gain haste for 5s when you're hit below 20% health. (cooldown: 90s) +90 power When you use a healing skill nearby foes are burned for 3 seconds. (cooldown: 10s)

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#2 IDarko

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:57 PM

I like the idea mate.

Some creating thinking there! Might give it a try next beta. :)

#3 TronJeremy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:54 PM

Thanks, yeah this was my first build with the burn per heal, I have toyed around with it a bit more, liking where it's going.

#4 Drekor

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:27 AM

I like the idea but not sure why you wouldn't focus on using crit + earth sigils(as opposed to so much power) to complement burning with bleeding producing significantly more damage. The burn duration stuff is largely pointless since your burn durations are pretty small to begin with and are applied fairly frequently.

I also don't like the OH dagger choice, would be much better to go p/p imo, getting a daze + BP is so much stronger than a clunky cripple and overpriced stealth.

#5 Psikerlord

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:14 AM

I would love to add burn to my thief but as I'm planning ranged attacks mosty I don't want to be close enough for the heal burn to be applicable. Alas.

#6 TronJeremy

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:56 AM

I like your suggestion Syl. Thanks, I'll work out a more crit build with this.

#7 Scol

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 09:20 AM

View PostTronJeremy, on 12 July 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I like your suggestion Syl. Thanks, I'll work out a more crit build with this.
Uhm, Sylvari Specialist is his Member Title not his nick. His nick is Drekor. :)

#8 TronJeremy

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:06 PM

No I'm not new to these forums!  Ha.

#9 nekura

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

This thread shows we've officially ran out of shit to talk about.

#10 Engel Jorgenson

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:31 PM

Lol here for quite some time that there is nothing new on these forums. We still rehashing the same shit over and over again. The problems were identified long ago by everybody, possible improvements as, indeed occupies here to read all this crap even if here does not make sense because a lot has changed here since the weekend. Planning on a build, gameplay, techniques, ..... it's the same here no use for the same reasons. At least I Lol'd the first time I saw this...

#11 jeff23

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 11:13 PM

I didn't want to say it, because these mods will do anything to suspend me.  But the OP's build is crap.  How come no one else has said it?

#12 Am0n

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 11:38 PM

View Postjeff23, on 14 July 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

I didn't want to say it, because these mods will do anything to suspend me.  But the OP's build is crap.  How come no one else has said it?

Because his opinion is just as note worthy as yours.  Because you don't agree with him doesn't make you the all knowing authority.  With an attitude like that I don't think it's the mods that have a problem around here.

Edited by Am0n, 14 July 2012 - 11:39 PM.

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#13 nekura

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostAm0n, on 14 July 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

Because his opinion is just as note worthy as yours.  Because you don't agree with him doesn't make you the all knowing authority.  With an attitude like that I don't think it's the mods that have a problem around here.

It is a bad build, and the runeset itself is poorly designed. 3s of burn every 15s (at most) is no where near worth building around. "Haste" is also in a dubious state, the same with Frenzy, where they need to figure their shit out. 5s of endo regen under 20% hp every 90s is garbage.

There are some runesets that need to be nerfed, and some that need to be buffed... this is one of them.

Edited by nekura, 15 July 2012 - 05:26 PM.


#14 Am0n

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:49 AM

View Postnekura, on 15 July 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

It is a bad build, and the runeset itself is poorly designed. 3s of burn every 20s (at most) is no where near worth building around. "Haste" is also in a dubious state, the same with Frenzy, where they need to figure their shit out. 5s of endo regen under 20% hp every 90s is garbage.

There are some runesets that need to be nerfed, and some that need to be buffed... this is one of them.

Then show me video proof of this mans theorycraft under performing.  Until then I refuse to believe it is UP or OP.  If you havent tried it and you arent in alpha you have no reason to doubt it.  Do all the algebra you want, ingame performance will always trump the math wiz.

If you have nothing to prove this guy wrong then continue building what you think is optimal and dont pass opinion as fact.  I feel this topic deserves discussion, and if no one has hard fact trying his build to prove that wrong then you should probably refrain from posting.

Now my personal opinion, feel how you want I really could careless unless you can prove him wrong.  Im not saying he is going in the right or wrong direction, but if you yourself cant prove either then why down vote his unorthodox approach,

Edited by Am0n, 15 July 2012 - 07:32 PM.

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#15 Dirame

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:08 AM

Funny, as soon as I read Thieves and burning I automagically made the build in my head and lo and behold, I was right. Nice build.

Edited by Dirame, 15 July 2012 - 10:08 AM.


#16 FluxWing

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:45 AM

I think the OP's build highlights that something is missing when it comes to condition based damage for the Thief class.

Poison is not very damaging (low base damage and pitiful scaling) and stacks in duration.

Bleeds have the similar scaling as Poison, but stacks in intensity.

(Or rather it seemed as if each stack was independent of eachother.
Ex: When applying 10 stacks of bleed, then waiting 2 sec to apply another 10 stacks of bleed. The bleed counter temporarily showed 20 until the first 10 stacks duration ran out, then it showed 10 stacks for the the remaining delayed stacks until they ran out but.)

Anyhow, the Thief class doesn't really have a decent method of stacking enough Bleed to do any real damage.

Well at least when I compared it to

Warriors: Insane Bleed stacks from S/S, and Burning from the longbow.

Necro: Poison, with a lot of Bleed from Scepter/Dagger for example.

Engineer: Poison, Burning and moderate stacks of Bleed from Pistol + Bombs/Grenades/Flamethrower

Ranger: Poison, Burning and Bleeds with Shortbow + Sunspirit + Sharpening Stones etc. Even though longbow might be better if you go for procs with Rapid Fire due to the higher rate of fire and base dmg, who knows...


The other classes I haven't looked at in terms of Condition damage accessibility. I started an Elementalist only the last hour or so of the ST :/

But when experimenting with bleed generation last ST, I found that I couldn't really stack Bleeds very high at all with a Thief.  At least not with LDB or Cluster Shot spamming. Those skills must be quite difficult to balance considering they have a quite strong DD + DoT and AoE in the very same ability.

Maybe if you would have the Sigil of Earth coulpled with Unload (P/P) and a high crit chance I could get higher.

But high crit and condition dmg would mean Rabid Amulet+Jewel, and then your attack would be in the 2k regions :(

Caltrops could work if they actually go through with the buff, seems weird to rely on long CDs when you play a thief.


Having access to burn would really help condition based builds a lot. The Thief already have multiple ways of applying poison which is quite useless. What if instead of Spider/Ice Drake -Venom there was a Fire Drake Venom that applied burning to the next few attacks...

Or a burning on crit weapon Sigil? Would probably make Sun spirit and fire combo fields reduced to zero worth....hmm...nothing is ever easy...

#17 nekura

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostAm0n, on 15 July 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Then show me video proof of this mans theorycraft under performing.  Until then I refuse to believe it is UP or OP.  If you havent tried it and you arent in alpha you have no reason to doubt it.  Do all the algebra you want, ingame performance will always trump the math wiz.

If you have nothing to prove this guy wrong then continue building what you think is optimal and dont pass opinion as fact.  I feel this topic deserves discussion, and if no one has hard fact trying his build to prove that wrong then you should probably refrain from posting.

Now my personal opinion, feel how you want I really could careless uinless you can prove him wrong.  Im not saying he is going in the right or wrong direction, but if you yourself cant prove either then why down vote his unorthodox approach,

PS Coors light is such an amazing substance.

How much white trash courage did it take for you to conjure up that hissy fit?

#18 Drekor

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostFluxWing, on 15 July 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

But when experimenting with bleed generation last ST, I found that I couldn't really stack Bleeds very high at all with a Thief.  At least not with LDB or Cluster Shot spamming. Those skills must be quite difficult to balance considering they have a quite strong DD + DoT and AoE in the very same ability.

Maybe if you would have the Sigil of Earth coulpled with Unload (P/P) and a high crit chance I could get higher.

But high crit and condition dmg would mean Rabid Amulet+Jewel, and then your attack would be in the 2k regions :(
LDB and CB are awful for condition based builds. You want p/p because of it's #1 causing bleeding along with earth sigils for more bleeding which works well with unload. Lowering your power is basically the sacrifice you make. Do you want to do lots of condition damage? or do you want to do lots of direct damage? Have to pick one.

View Postnekura, on 15 July 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

It is a bad build, and the runeset itself is poorly designed. 3s of burn every 15s (at most) is no where near worth building around. "Haste" is also in a dubious state, the same with Frenzy, where they need to figure their shit out. 5s of endo regen under 20% hp every 90s is garbage.

There are some runesets that need to be nerfed, and some that need to be buffed... this is one of them.
3s of burning with his stats is about 1800 armor ignoring damage per target(it's an AoE). It's also a new condition not normally present which makes it slightly more difficult to wipe conditions against it. This compounds with the fact you get this from using a skill you'd be using anyways, it's some pretty good icing on the cake imo.

Also 5s of haste when shit gets really hairy is hardly dubious in fact it can easily swing a fight in your favor.

#19 nekura

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostDrekor, on 15 July 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Also 5s of haste when shit gets really hairy is hardly dubious in fact it can easily swing a fight in your favor.

I would agree with you if it granted you Quickness.

With the new changes to Might this build would start to look better if he totally reworked his spec, but still around the runes (+35 Condi damage per stack).

Edited by nekura, 15 July 2012 - 06:19 PM.


#20 Jaehan

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostFluxWing, on 15 July 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

...

As you said, the problem with the Thief and going the route of condition damage is the fact that they lack the two big things that make condition builds viable:
  • Being able to apply numerous conditions ( whether that be numerous stacks or numerous in diversity ) over a short duration
  • Being able to sustain applying conditions in the event of them getting wiped.
Honestly, if what a person wants is a condition based profession, there's always: Pistol / Pistol and bleed stacking with 1 is the only real way to consistently and reliably be able to apply bleeds at this point without denying yourself initiative. On-hit effects tend to lend themselves to that end.

Edited by Jaehan, 15 July 2012 - 06:56 PM.


#21 nekura

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:05 PM

View PostJaehan, on 15 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

...

Sword/Sword Warriors make me really nervous for balance. I'd much rather go up against 100Blades than that.

#22 Am0n

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:27 PM

View Postnekura, on 15 July 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

How much white trash courage did it take for you to conjure up that hissy fit?

Quite a bit.

Edited by Am0n, 15 July 2012 - 07:41 PM.

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#23 Drekor

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

View Postnekura, on 15 July 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

I would agree with you if it granted you Quickness.

With the new changes to Might this build would start to look better if he totally reworked his spec, but still around the runes (+35 Condi damage per stack).
Hold up, since when did haste not apply quickness? and if it doesn't apply quickness the hell does it even do anymore? It did apply it as of the last ST...

Edited by Drekor, 15 July 2012 - 08:11 PM.


#24 Am0n

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostDrekor, on 15 July 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Hold up, since when did haste not apply quickness? and if it doesn't apply quickness the hell does it even do anymore? It did apply it as of the last ST...

You are confusing the ability Haste with the effect Haste.

The ability grants quickness, and breaks stun
The effect grants 100% endurance regen.

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#25 Jaehan

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:05 PM

View Postnekura, on 15 July 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Sword/Sword Warriors make me really nervous for balance. I'd much rather go up against 100Blades than that.

Agreed. Sword / Sword is just plain nasty, especially if they're traited for critical on top of bleeds. And they use CD's, which are all fairly low ( 5s to 15s on most skills ) - so you could Frenzy ( Quickness ) and not worry about crippling yourself from lack of initiative.

Wiping the bleeds doesn't really help as, again, they can reapply almost their full arsenal back on you within 10ish seconds.

All this based around the fact that they don't even really need much of anything else - they still have a lot of counter-disable skills they can take ( Doylak, Balanced Stance, etc ) and still boast over 20k health and 1000+ Toughness.

Edited by Jaehan, 15 July 2012 - 09:06 PM.


#26 FluxWing

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:57 PM

View PostJaehan, on 15 July 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Wiping the bleeds doesn't really help as, again, they can reapply almost their full arsenal back on you within 10ish seconds.

While we're on the subject, how do you ppl plan on removing DoTs (Poison/Bleed/Burning)?

There is the Hide in Shadows heal ability, Roll for initiative utility, traits Shadow's Embrace and Pain Response.
And I guess there is Sigil of Purity.

None seem like very solid options, imho. Sigil of Purity removes max 1 every 10 sec, but otherwise seem like the most solid option. Using Roll for initiative would seem like a waste to be used on non-CC conditions or anything Fleet of Foot would remove.

Or is the plan to stay near a Ranger/Necro/Guardian and hope they are support spec:ed to remove it for you?

#27 nekura

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostFluxWing, on 15 July 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

While we're on the subject, how do you ppl plan on removing DoTs (Poison/Bleed/Burning)?

Melandru runes were my first line of defense. After that I used the Agility Signet and Infil Strike - both of these options are less than ideal b/c you can't really keep sustained condi's off.

Pain Response is worth the trait slot, but I didn't run it for many matches. I'm hoping since team condi removal is getting nerfed that they buffed our traits.

#28 Drekor

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostAm0n, on 15 July 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

You are confusing the ability Haste with the effect Haste.

The ability grants quickness, and breaks stun
The effect grants 100% endurance regen.
There is no such thing as the "effect" haste. 100% endurance regen boon is called vigor. The only thing in the game called "haste" is the ability which grants quickness and breaks stun.

Edited by Drekor, 16 July 2012 - 06:47 PM.


#29 Am0n

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostDrekor, on 16 July 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

There is no such thing as the "effect" haste. 100% endurance regen boon is called vigor. The only thing in the game called "haste" is the ability which grants quickness and breaks stun.

Sorry you are wrong.

Haste and Vigor are related, but Vigor is a Boon, Haste is typeless.  

In GW2 there are Boons, Conditions, Effects.  If you need a list here:

http://wiki.guildwar.../Haste_(effect)

Scroll to the bottom of the page for an entire list.
Also Elixir U has a chance at granting the effect Haste.  Haste is NOT quickness.  It is a common misunderstanding because an ability and an effect share a name that both do something different.

I understand most of the time wiki isn't the best idea to go off of, but in this instance it is correct for once.

As I said before:

Ability Haste grants Quickness and breaks stun.
Effect Haste grants 100% endurance regen.

Edited by Am0n, 16 July 2012 - 08:11 PM.

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#30 Drekor

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:36 PM

Seems you're right, they should change that to say that it grants vigor then, having something share a name like that is horrible design.

Edited by Drekor, 16 July 2012 - 08:39 PM.






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