45 replies to this topic

[Aodan]

This is my attempt to educate and provide reasoning for why focusing a Guardian on "healing" is not productive and will probably never be a good way to focus your Guardian.

Experience with "Healing":
Guardian Player
Main R.Shm for MC- Original Naxx, 1900+ S2,S4
Main Bard for <HALO> and 2ndary <KoS> Hib/Lancelot DAoC
Main 2nd Team Medic for <CP> in Beta-Live AvA






Around 6:15 he talks about how every profession can fulfill every role (Support, Control, Damage). Let's clear this up not only with what he said in the video but my own take on it.

1. As he said there are still the "beefy" and "Squishy" professions, but that the needs of roles and professions are dynamic both in PvE and PvP.

2. On my take, is that in Spvp, WvW, and even PvE, people will need to change/tweek builds to fulfill more then just one role. I feel that in my experience that esp with the Guardian, you must balance all 3 roles in any build. If you don't, then you simply lack in a role that could become a dependency in any given fight. (Not enough Control, Not enough Support, Not enough Damage).
2a. This was a big one in Competitive Spvp that I saw. There were times in more singular focused builds where I felt like I lacked one of the three.


Around 4:15 he talks about personal heals and a "healing" focus.

Keep in mind there are no "focused" heals / no single target big heals apart from Self Heals

In PvE, healing is purely reactive, boring, and creates lazy players, also as he goes into details about mobs and modifications devs have to do to make healing "viable" and basically a "crutch".

In PvP, Anet has said that they want things to "die". Now your probably going to go straight to Tomb of Courage and be like, "Wait, we get a full heal", my answer to that is, it is an Elite, it's suppose to be a tide changer. But focusing stats/builds around getting healing from utilities like Merciful Intervention, Hold the Line!, and passive's Virtue of Resolve Traiting is only minimal compared to the effects of other utilities can have on a battle. Now I'm not saying these kinds of things are not practical, but trying to build around 1 self heal, 2 utilities, an Elite, and 1 Passive is may not be the most effective if your really trying to "heal". Wards and Sanctuary as well as good command of Shield, can help prevent tons of damage not just in Spvp but also in WvW.

In Competitive Spvp or Tournament play, if you really examine many of our utilities/traits and weapons, you can see that we can provide pivotal support without much focus. Also that many of this "support" or straight damage mitigation also serves as control (Area Control). Also many of these abilities don't even need proper traiting to be effective and only a few really benefit from it.

A Few Examples:
Shield - SoA, SoJ
Sanc, Hold The Line!, Spirit Hammer
Blinds from Focus/Sword/GS

Also that if you look at the amount of healing you can put out with Healing Breeze, Merciful Intervention/Hold the Line!, and Passive from Resolve it really isn't the "healing" amount or ability that many "healer" players are use to. Even if you think the amount total is a "lot", that isn't calculating for Poison, Burst Damage during/after, or control that may prevent/interrupt.

I'm not saying that healing isn't needed, but giving up suriviability, control, or damage just to have 200-400 more healing is not worth it.

Edited by Aodan, 14 July 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[KirbyGotenksabsorbed]

Quote

but trying to build around 1 self heal, 2 utilities, an Elite, and 1 Passive

Well, I'm not saying that I'm disagreeing, but technically you can get a few healing weapon skills too (Orb/Flash of Light and Ray of Judgement), and there are also the other healing abilities in Tome of courage besides Light of Deliverence.

Edited by KirbyGotenksabsorbed, 14 July 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Aodan]

KirbyGotenksabsorbed, on 14 July 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Well, I'm not saying that I'm disagreeing, but technically you can get a few healing weapon skills too (Orb/Flash of Light and Ray of Judgement), and there are also the other healing abilities in Tome of courage besides Light of Deliverence.

#1 on ToC yes, but apart from ToC the healing is not substantial. They do need to make Orb better. Ray Of judgement helps but it's only good cause it's both a regen and blind mechanical use.

This was more in reply of the theory craft thread and the misconception many cling to the Guardian thinking it will fill the "healer" role.

[Alaroxr]

I agree.

I see too many people thinking Support = Healing, and wanting to build as a healer (which spans even to the Engineer and Elementalist).

This is a quote from the official website from over a year ago, that shows their philosophy when designing the game, which is still shown in the nearly finished product we see today.

http://www.guildwars.../healing-death/

"Don't belittle the SUPPORT role by calling it heal. Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is. It is reactive instead of proactive. Healing is for when you are already losing. In Guild Wars 2 we prefer that you support your allies before they take a beating. Sure, there are some healing spells in Guild Wars 2, but they make up a small portion of the support lines that are spread throughout the professions. Other kinds of support include buffs, active defense, and cross-profession combinations.
For instance, an elementalist can support his allies by dropping down a ground-targeted healing rain that rejuvenates allies in an area. He might also use Windborne Speed to help them chase down a target or escape out of longbow range. A warrior might shout "On My Target" to help his allies do more damage to a marked enemy, or use his warhorn to "Call to Arms" which improves the armor of his allies for a short time.

We use our cross-profession combos to fill in the rest of our support. An elementalist can create a Firewall or Static Field to improve the ranged attacks of his allies. A warrior can carry a Banner of Wisdom around the battlefield to increase the power of his allies' magical attacks. An elementalist might cast an ice spell to freeze enemies, but that same spell might give his allies Frost Armor to protect them from incoming attacks. When you boil it down, support is just the friendly way for players to work together to accomplish a shared goal."

Note: Wooden Potatoes's videos are amazing.

Edited by Alaroxr, 14 July 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[KelvinKole]

Will chime in a bit here because I have tried to build and play a completely dedicated healer guardian. It just flat out didn't work....

What I found is that the actual outgoing healing you can muster up from any given skill; including things like healing breeze and merciful intervention, will always be significantly less than the incoming damage. You simply can not keep a single ally under pressure up without some work of his own, and even if you manage to do so you've blown some long cooldown skills to do it and won't be providing much usefulness to the group until those are recharged and you can zomg heal again. It ends up being an underpowered and wasteful build.

So how does a Guardian build for support in GW2? I have my ideas...

Virtues - This trait line will increase boon duration while simultaneously decreasing virtue recharge. That's the one-two combo to help insure maximal up time on your boons, those provided through virtues and those provided through utilities.

Condition removal - Guardians have the benefit of being able to put down light fields fairly easily, which provide combo effects of condition removal. Outside of combos, skills like Martyr, bow of truth, and purging flames, and traits like pure of voice present a decent amount of options for group wide condition removal.

Area Control - Probably the one thing the Guardian excels at the most over other professions. With line of warding, ring of warding, shield of absorption, wall of reflection, hallowed ground, sanctuary, zealots embrace, chains of light, and every symbol we can make entire areas of game space extremely hard for enemies to cross into and stay in, and support allies within those areas while we do it.

So to anyone looking to build a support oriented guardian, I would suggest focusing on boon duration and getting as much condition removal and control in your build as possible. Healing is very much secondary and while having  a decent amount of compassion is recommended for the regen boon (I like to float around 500-700), allies will have to learn to support themselves to some extend as well.

[Aodan]

Thank you guys for your input, it only goes to prove that support is more then just healing.

KelvinKole, on 15 July 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

What I found is that the actual outgoing healing you can muster up from any given skill; including things like healing breeze and merciful intervention, will always be significantly less than the incoming damage. You simply can not keep a single ally under pressure up without some work of his own, and even if you manage to do so you've blown some long cooldown skills to do it and won't be providing much usefulness to the group until those are recharged and you can zomg heal again.

Exactly

[Isarien]

I think a good deal of the confusion comes from the inclusion of a healing stat on gear, that the existence of such a thing means that characters will be able to specialize in it and use that specialization to great effect on other players, as that is typically the point of healing in other games. The thing is, no one is responsible for healing someone else in GW2, so anyone, of any profession, who intends to do such a thing will find themselves disappointed.

What you'd end up doing by going heavy into healing is making yourself very elastic. The most effective healing takes the form of self heals (across all professions), and thus most of that +healing will add to your elasticity as a player, allowing you to 'bounce back' more effectively from the brink of death. This elasticity won't transfer over as efficiently to your allies, however, and that's where people are getting confused, I believe.

With that said, specializing partially into healing as a form of personal survivability is fine in my book. But specializing in it with the intent to use those heals in an attempt to maintain your allies, who should really be responsible for themselves, isn't going to work. The game is designed for folks to take care of themselves, HP wise, and support each other in other ways, so I see nothing wrong with the way this is set up.

[jmilktoast]

Tried it during the stress test, it was sub standard. Like all things guardian, versatility rules. So a little area control, boon support, condition removal, and a little healing go further than building solely for one role. A role that the developers want out of the game. Just consider the math on regeneration. The difference between going full healing attribute and only a little plus healing ends up giving you only 100 more hp per tick. Not worth it at all considering how much you have to give up in other areas such as damage/surviability/control.

Nice write up btw aodan.

[bloodronin]

support imo is cc and buffs. example using scepter and shield. my team mate is low. i push enemy back and then immobilize him. this giving my team mate enough to to escape or get his own self heal off.

[Zarffa]

Your: a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective
You're: contraction of "you are"

Your doing it wrong; possesion of "doing it wrong"
You're doing it wrong; You are doing it wrong.

You are doing it wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a more related note. If you repalce healing with support, I do think you can make a mostly support build. This is all speculation until the game is released and we learn more. However, I can imagine having two players. Player 1 is pure damage and player 2 is pure support. Together they make a balanced force.

Ultimately, I agree there will be no pure healing builds. If I recall correctly, the majority of players want big numbers and few enjoy healing. The minority will eventually learn the importance of support and they will do just as I said above. Replace healing with support. Which will be a better experience for dedicated healers. Raising red bars is most likely less fun than playing a support character, requiring you to pay attention to enemy movement and attacks, as well as ally movement and position.

Edited by iToasterHD, 15 July 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Wolfynsong]

iToasterHD, on 15 July 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Your: a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective
You're: contraction of "you are"

Your doing it wrong; possesion of "doing it wrong"
You're doing it wrong; You are doing it wrong.

You are doing it wrong.

QFT.  Except that you probably meant "possession."

Edited by Wolfynsong, 15 July 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Graywolf4409]

Warrior healing is A-OK and they can control with other weapons, and for their effective healing they pretty much max out defensive traits too.

They can output like 18K over 20 seconds which is tide turning in its own right.

true you should not focus entirely on one, good thing about warrior in particular is that its healing is purely based on utilities so it can fight any way it wants, it removes conditions as it heals, and provides 3 stacks of might and fury, plus an empowered trait and they are getting more damage for every buff they have.

Due to the easy ability to pull it off, at this rate i think we will see more warrior healers then anything else =P Not like elementalist where you have to put up fields and change attunements in them, just spam shouts on CD while fighting like you always would.

You are right though, 18K per 20s will not top up a necro, maxing out your compassion and getting runes for healing will leave you lack luster in other areas, you will be able to heal from damage well but you will still be lacking massive amounts of defense from gear. Only thing that balances it out in my opinion is that they A) Do more support then simply heal and B ) They can control enemies with blunt weapons effectively while they heal, so not completely wasted in combat.

[Aodan]

iToasterHD, on 15 July 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

However, I can imagine having two players. Player 1 is pure damage and player 2 is pure support. Together they make a balanced force.

This is the exact thing many people believe. In PvE and maybe WvW you can get away with that but in competitive play, you are not always with that 1 pure damage or 1 pure control.

I don't think the devs are trying to get rid of versatile builds, but oftentimes you find yourself with whatever teamate is closest to you.

TP said something along the lines of, "We tend to use builds that serve to be versatile and strong on their own", this is the situation most on the team want to build but to focus stats more towards a goal. Almost everyone will have some form of CC Utility, the rest will be dependent on build. (Burst = Offensive, Support = Defensive)

[KirbyGotenksabsorbed]

Aodan, on 15 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

This is the exact thing many people believe. In PvE and maybe WvW you can get away with that but in competitive play, you are not always with that 1 pure damage or 1 pure control.

If one is a support player, and that person isn't always with another player who is damage-focused/control-focused, then he's probably not a very good support player.

[KelvinKole]

What Anet has done with the class system is really so refreshingly different that most mmo players are going to have a hard time adapting. Some people truly prefer the purist system that we're used too and like being the tank or the healer, they like having those defined roles and feeling important through them.

Anet has essentially dissolved those roles in a way that makes player awareness and reactivity take over for dedicated specs. You can still build any given class into a pure roll but in doing so will limit your characters overall contribution to the group. The ability to switch weapon sets is testament to what Anet is trying to do; They are allowing you to have two separate sets of skills and you have to know which ones to use and when. Similarly, they gave every profession a staple self heal, taking the responsibility of health management away from one player and putting it in each individual player's hands. Make no mistake, the strongest builds in this game will be the ones with the most concentrated versatility. By which I mean, builds that don't try to be jack of all trades but have multiple roles in mind and can fulfill each one to a high degree of efficiency when called on.

KirbyGotenksabsorbed, on 15 July 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

If one is a support player, and that person isn't always with another player who is damage-focused/control-focused, then he's probably not a very good support player.

Things like this are not always in your control. Anet wants people to die in PvP and they are succeeding in accomplishing that. You will die and find yourself on your own. Your ally will die and you will find yourself on your own. I understand what you're saying, but the buddy system will inevitably be defeated at some point and you'll be useless to your team until you can come together again, during which time, as pure support, you won't be offering much to the fight anyway.

Edited by KelvinKole, 15 July 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Brutaly]

@OP a very well written post, hopefully it wont make people specc out of stuff like battle presence because i know that wasnt your intention

KelvinKole, on 15 July 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

What Anet has done with the class system is really so refreshingly different that most mmo players are going to have a hard time adapting. Some people truly prefer the purist system that we're used too and like being the tank or the healer, they like having those defined roles and feeling important through them.

Anet has essentially dissolved those roles in a way that makes player awareness and reactivity take over for dedicated specs. You can still build any given class into a pure roll but in doing so will limit your characters overall contribution to the group. The ability to switch weapon sets is testament to what Anet is trying to do; They are allowing you to have two separate sets of skills and you have to know which ones to use and when. Similarly, they gave every profession a staple self heal, taking the responsibility of health management away from one player and putting it in each individual player's hands. Make no mistake, the strongest builds in this game will be the ones with the most concentrated versatility. By which I mean, builds that don't try to be jack of all trades but have multiple roles in mind and can fulfill each one to a high degree of efficiency when called on.


Things like this are not always in your control. Anet wants people to die in PvP and they are succeeding in accomplishing that. You will die and find yourself on your own. Your ally will die and you will find yourself on your own. I understand what you're saying, but the buddy system will inevitably be defeated at some point and you'll be useless to your team until you can come together again, during which time, as pure support, you won't be offering much to the fight anyway.

Excellent and informative post, thx.

[Aodan]

Battle presence is good for the Area Denial build or for builds in WvW/PvE.

For the versatile build or more offensive builds of a guardian, that trait is not so good (remember it takes 2 traits to make it very effective)

[KelvinKole]

Aodan, on 15 July 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Battle presence is good for the Area Denial build or for builds in WvW/PvE.

For the versatile build or more offensive builds of a guardian, that trait is not so good (remember it takes 2 traits to make it very effective)

I wouldn't take Battle Presence at all without Resolute and at least 500 compassion. It can be a very good trait, but as you said you pretty much need to build around it.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Y'all trying to be hipsters.  Just max Compassion and Precision, take a sword and spam auto-attacks to stack Vigor, then roll around healing people for 1k+ per roll.

That's, like, infinity health, man.

[nekura]

Learn to spell.

[ocirne23]

Derp

http://www.gw2build.....0.0.30.0.30.10

530 healing per second to every ally, plus all the dodge heals.

The healing we can do is by no means insignificant. Over the cource of a 30 second battle with 4 players, a guardian will heal everyone for 530x4x30 =  63.6k health. With just the regen and battle presence.

It's by no means a "healer" since it can do other things well, (dps/cc) but the heals are as good as you can reasonably get.

[KelvinKole]

nekura, on 16 July 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Learn to spell.

The joke went waaaaay over your head, apparently. Good contribution to the discussion

ocirne23, on 16 July 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Derp

http://www.gw2build.....0.0.30.0.30.10

530 healing per second to every ally, plus all the dodge heals.

The healing we can do is by no means insignificant. Over the cource of a 30 second battle with 4 players, a guardian will heal everyone for 530x4x30 =  63.6k health. With just the regen and battle presence.

It's by no means a "healer" since it can do other things well, (dps/cc) but the heals are as good as you can reasonably get.

That is probably the one viable healing heavy build out there. Still, not going to save anyone from being bursted down though on your own.

[CrunkJuice2]

in my expierance OP.its better to just let idiots be idiots,then try to help them not be.only to have them respond back in some immature douchebag way like for example

"hey man,i know you may think guardians are a dedicated healer class.but there not,this game doesnt really have any and your just gimpin yourself"

::the guardians response::

"LOLOLOL SCREW YOU NOOB,GO BACK TO WOW YOUR SUCH A NOOB TROLOLOLOL IM THE GREATEST GUARDIAN HEALER EVER HURP DE DERP"

the example i put above is why i just let idiots be idiots and i dont help anyone who i dont know in real life that i know isnt a total douchebag

[Seladore]

CrunkJuice2, on 16 July 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

in my expierance OP.its better to just let idiots be idiots,then try to help them not be.only to have them respond back in some immature douchebag way like for example

"hey man,i know you may think guardians are a dedicated healer class.but there not,this game doesnt really have any and your just gimpin yourself"

::the guardians response::

"LOLOLOL SCREW YOU NOOB,GO BACK TO WOW YOUR SUCH A NOOB TROLOLOLOL IM THE GREATEST GUARDIAN HEALER EVER HURP DE DERP"

the example i put above is why i just let idiots be idiots and i dont help anyone who i dont know in real life that i know isnt a total douchebag

Oh CrunkJuice...

[Raggok]

iToasterHD, on 15 July 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Your: a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective
You're: contraction of "you are"

Your doing it wrong; possesion of "doing it wrong"
You're doing it wrong; You are doing it wrong.

You are doing it wrong.

Since he put it in quotation marks, my first assumption is that he wrote it that way on purpose making fun of that very common error.  It's very ironic when someone says "your doing it wrong."  Did you even consider he did that on purpose?

[Aodan]

ocirne23, on 16 July 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Derp

http://www.gw2build.....0.0.30.0.30.10

530 healing per second to every ally, plus all the dodge heals.

The healing we can do is by no means insignificant. Over the cource of a 30 second battle with 4 players, a guardian will heal everyone for 530x4x30 =  63.6k health. With just the regen and battle presence.

It's by no means a "healer" since it can do other things well, (dps/cc) but the heals are as good as you can reasonably get.

If a fight is lasting 30 seconds in tournament play, you are playing very bad players.

As far as WvW or PvE, I could see that build working but I still wouldn't sacrifice so much hp for just healing.

Esp after the recent comparison about armor/toughness v vit on the TL forums.

Edited by Aodan, 16 July 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[RabidusIncendia]

I think in PvP, the only reason to put a guardian in your team will be for condition removal, spike prevention, and holding a capture point long enough for allies to help defend.  Party healing will just be a nice benefit   In PvE, it might be lazy, but I'm sure healing will be effective.

[ocirne23]

Aodan, on 16 July 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

If a fight is lasting 30 seconds in tournament play, you are playing very bad players.

As far as WvW or PvE, I could see that build working but I still wouldn't sacrifice so much hp for just healing.

Esp after the recent comparison about armor/toughness v vit on the TL forums.

Fights can last as long as you want them to last. If your team focuses on damage migitation/pressure, then 30 seconds isnt too long of a time. Especially on capture points or near spawns, fights can last very long.

You can make the same statement that dieing under x amount of time in tournament play, means that you're playing bad players. There is such a large amount of CC for every class that you can save anyone from getting burst down.

Once people learn how to spot spikes, fights will begin to last a lot longer. Everyone has enough survivability with their selfheal/dodge/stunbreakers to last atleast 15 seconds if you're not being unobservant and derping around in range of every enemy.

Engineers have a ton of knockbacks, warriors have stuns, necros&ele's chill, rangers cripple and disrupt, mesmers divert damage with illusions, thieves have a ton of dodges/invisibility. Everything can be thrown down on the enemies main damage dealers. No class is truly squishy. The guardian has SoA/Wall of reflection/immobilizes which can prolong a fight by atleast ~8-ish seconds on their own.

Even if a fight only lasts 20 seconds with 4 people, a guardian can still heal 42.4k with regeneration and battle presence. You just need to play with people who have a good understanding of the bursts of every single class and common team spike setups.

Edited by ocirne23, 16 July 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Drekor]

Aodan, on 14 July 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

*snip*

Nice job but you could have just said pointed at water fields and said "you'll never come close to those".

[Itharius]

jmilktoast, on 15 July 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Tried it during the stress test, it was sub standard. Like all things guardian, versatility rules. So a little area control, boon support, condition removal, and a little healing go further than building solely for one role. A role that the developers want out of the game. Just consider the math on regeneration. The difference between going full healing attribute and only a little plus healing ends up giving you only 100 more hp per tick. Not worth it at all considering how much you have to give up in other areas such as damage/surviability/control.

Nice write up btw aodan.

Well, I actually came up with a good heal build going that focused on meditations, I did quite a bit of healing to people. It was very similar to Omniknight from Dota where I'd be able to heal someone from low health to full once in a while, but it was only one aspect of the support role. Removing conditions, applying buffs, and CC were equally important.

http://www.gw2tools....fWYX;ceZa;YjQeY

Edited by Itharius, 17 July 2012 - 04:13 AM.