45 replies to this topic

[Brutaly]

Itharius, on 17 July 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

http://www.gw2tools....fWYX;ceZa;YjQeY

that build aint working after tiered traits got introduced.

OT. Im with Ocirne on this one, fight s can last longer depending on teamcomp and ofc numbers participating in the clash.

The healing system in battle presence is rather similar in function to the one used in age of conan, its all about weak HoTs, and in that game the one with a priest will win the fight, even with 150 hps and 10-16k healthpools.

I dont think battle presence is only for area denial, i think it has its uses, depending on groupsetup, even in more offensive builds.

even if the fight just lasts 10 seconds it means that the effective healthpool of each players is increased with more then 10%. If there was a trait that gave the group passively 10% more dps i would definitely specc that so i wont rule out battle presence in more offensive speccs.

As long as there are teammates in vicinity battle presence is strong in both offense and in defense.

Edited by Brutaly, 17 July 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[Anirien1]

RabidusIncendia, on 16 July 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I think in PvP, the only reason to put a guardian in your team will be for condition removal, spike prevention, and holding a capture point long enough for allies to help defend.  Party healing will just be a nice benefit   In PvE, it might be lazy, but I'm sure healing will be effective.

I agree.  If you need any kind of DPS in a tournament the Guardian would be the last profession to fill that role and the slot should be switched over to a Warrior or other profession that can contibute more efficiently to DPS.  Hot-Join PVP has a place for offensive guardians however.  All of our guardians in our guild and guild alliance spec for the items you mention above (in your quote).  We have been very successful in tournaments and defense or support guardians have played a big role in that success.

I know there is a big bandwagon of offensive guardians on this particular forum (not seen elsewhere) - but there seems to be discussions centered around these offensive builds that is based on opinion and hot-join PVP.  Why isn't there a thread on tournament tactics and how guardians fit into those tactics (understanding 4-1, 3-1-1, 2-2-1 splits - etc...)?  Is it because it is obvious an offensive guardian doesn't fit into these discussions?  Then there are attempts to justify a partial offensive guardian with only partial support (when its obvious an Elementalist fills that role better by switching to fire / air  and then water / earth attunements).

Guardians excell in a coordinated team play environment for providing defense (solo defending a node vs multiple opponents) in 4-1 or 3-1-1 splits.  Guardians also excell in condition removal, spike prevention, area control, CC, etc.. but are currently weak in offense (so it is not effecient to trait outside of an area you don't excell in - especially when there are other professions that can fill that role better).  This may change in BWE#3 if they do nerf some of the Guardians defense and support and healing.

Edited by Anirien1, 17 July 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[Craywulf]

I really would rather we discourage the notion that the Guardian and Elementalist are healer professions. I've been asked which profession is the best healer and I flatout state none, even though the Guardian does slightly  more than other professions in terms of healing. I just think it gives the wrong impression mentioning the Guardian as a healer, it's just set up for a disaster and anger for the person believing it to be true.

I agree that trait building towards lengthening boon duration and improving condition removal is the best way to go about using the Guardian as a support-oriented profession. But we have to remind those who do build for boon duration and condition removal that this only 1/3 of what the Guardian can do. The other being able to control the enemy's sphere with wards and like all other professions it does it's fair share of damage. So don't let players get the wrong impression about the Guardian. It's not a healer!

[Anirien1]

Craywulf, on 17 July 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

I really would rather we discourage the notion that the Guardian and Elementalist are healer professions. I've been asked which profession is the best healer and I flatout state none, even though the Guardian does slightly  more than other professions in terms of healing. I just think it gives the wrong impression mentioning the Guardian as a healer, it's just set up for a disaster and anger for the person believing it to be true.

I agree that trait building towards lengthening boon duration and improving condition removal is the best way to go about using the Guardian as a support-oriented profession. But we have to remind those who do build for boon duration and condition removal that this only 1/3 of what the Guardian can do. The other being able to control the enemy's sphere with wards and like all other professions it does it's fair share of damage. So don't let players get the wrong impression about the Guardian. It's not a healer!

No profession is a Tank profession and no profession is a DPS profession and no profession is a Healing profession.  There is no holy trinitiy in GW2.  Every profession does however have stand out abilities that sets them apart from the other professions like the burst damage of the Warrior as an example.  The sad thing is when people who love offensive guardians (again there is no reason why not to play an offensive guardian hot-join pvp) go onto these forums and try to convince others that guardians should not defend conquest nodes because they "think" that it isn't a good strategy or when they try to convice others that they can't heal  or that it is a waste to heal - really just shows that they don't have much tournament experience.  Trying to convince others that they can't defend or heal is just another false justification for bringing in an offensive or partial offensive guardian into a tournament team (of which there are only 5 positions).  As I mentioned above certain professions thrive on going back and forth between support and DPS - like the Elementalist.  The best Elementalist is one that will switch attunements doing DPS with Fire / Air - and then switch - between Water / Earth for Support.  If the guardian wants to do this - it is better to replace that guardian with an elementalist.  If the guardian wants to be partial offense and partial defense it is better to replace that guardian with a warrior.  The areas that guardians excel in and should replace other professions is defense and support.

Edited by Anirien1, 17 July 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Craywulf]

Anirien1, on 17 July 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

As I mentioned above certain professions thrive on going back and forth between support and DPS - like the Elementalist.  The best Elementalist is one that will switch attunements doing DPS with Fire / Air - and then switch - between Water / Earth for Support.  If the guardian wants to do this - it is better to replace that guardian with an elementalist.  If the guardian wants to be partial offense and partial defense it is better to replace that guardian with a warrior.  The areas that guardians excel in and should replace other professions is defense and support.

I disagree. The Guardian can switch roles just as an Elementalist can. The difference would be the level of effectiveness of their switched roles would be different. In other words the Elementalist can be traited to do massive fire damage, and still be able to do some support with water attunement, but not as effective support as a Guardian traited for boon duration and condition removal. Furthermore an Elementalist traited for water support can still do damage, but not effective as a Guardian traited for damage.

[Anirien1]

Craywulf, on 17 July 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I disagree. The Guardian can switch roles just as an Elementalist can. The difference would be the level of effectiveness of their switched roles would be different. In other words the Elementalist can be traited to do massive fire damage, and still be able to do some support with water attunement, but not as effective support as a Guardian traited for boon duration and condition removal. Furthermore an Elementalist traited for water support can still do damage, but not effective as a Guardian traited for damage.

If the Guardian and Elementalist were both traited offense / support - the Elementialist would do more DPS and more AOE damage than the Guardian would.  The Guaridan may have better area control though with that same build and better boons and condition removal.  The point is the Elementalist would fulfil the damage role or even partial damage role better than the Guardian.  All we see on these forums is threads (really only found on this forum) about offensive Guardians and minimal about defense, support, area control, cc, healing etc....(the areas where guardians excel in)  All we get is threads like this one about trying to convince people not to heal.  The same about not to defend a defensive node because they think it isn't a viable strategy.  All in an attempt to somehow justify an offensive build of some sort.

How about the same bandwagon create a thread about tournament tactics - you'll see it develop into discussions about healing and other support and defensive capablities rather than discussions about an offensive guardian - at least for those that have actually won a number of tournaments.

Watch this video and listen to the response to the first question.  He talks about any profession being able to fulfill all roles (which we all know) but that there are certain professions that make certain roles more accessible than others.  Since there are only 5 spots in a tournament team you want to pick a combination of professions that can ideally provide that role with greater accessiblity.

Edited by Anirien1, 17 July 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[Drekor]

Craywulf, on 17 July 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

I really would rather we discourage the notion that the Guardian and Elementalist are healer professions. I've been asked which profession is the best healer and I flatout state none, even though the Guardian does slightly  more than other professions in terms of healing. I just think it gives the wrong impression mentioning the Guardian as a healer, it's just set up for a disaster and anger for the person believing it to be true.

I agree that trait building towards lengthening boon duration and improving condition removal is the best way to go about using the Guardian as a support-oriented profession. But we have to remind those who do build for boon duration and condition removal that this only 1/3 of what the Guardian can do. The other being able to control the enemy's sphere with wards and like all other professions it does it's fair share of damage. So don't let players get the wrong impression about the Guardian. It's not a healer!

The guardian does a lot more than "slightly" and the elementalist can heal more than double what people's self heals do. To say there are none is just flat out deceiving people. If you are not aware of the mechanics behind healing you should just say "I don't know".

[mdapol]

Wow, as much as Arenanet tries to remove the holy trinity, players' insecurity keeps dragging it back in.  Some players, I guess, need something to wrap their minds around and are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of "everyone can do everything".  I hope this will change in the future as we all get more comfortable with the idea.

[Drekor]

mdapol, on 17 July 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Wow, as much as Arenanet tries to remove the holy trinity, players' insecurity keeps dragging it back in.  Some players, I guess, need something to wrap their minds around and are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of "everyone can do everything".  I hope this will change in the future as we all get more comfortable with the idea.

That's because everyone cannot do everything as well as everyone else. That distinction is incredibly important. You think a thief's little shadow refuge is going to satisfy a group compared to getting 12k AoE burst heal every 20s + soothing mists and regen from an ele? Not likely.

You think a warrior can face tank a boss? Nope. Thief can though.

You think a Guardian can deal massive condition damage? Nope. Warrior can though.

See how this is working yet? Different professions have different strengths the fact you CAN do "everything" doesn't mean it's not a complete waste of everyone's time. The holy trinity may not end up being optimal but completely ruling it out because Anet said so is just plain stupid.

[Craywulf]

Drekor, on 17 July 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

The guardian does a lot more than "slightly" and the elementalist can heal more than double what people's self heals do.

I call bullshit on this. The Elementalist does NOT have the ability to heal "double" of other profession's self-heals can do.

[Hirsty]

You're.

But anyway.
Yes.
You are doing it wrong.

[Ashkelon]

Craywulf, on 18 July 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I call bullshit on this. The Elementalist does NOT have the ability to heal "double" of other profession's self-heals can do.

He's not bs'ing you. Combo'ing off of water fields creates a huge amount of aoe healing. And elementalists have 2 water fields on staff that they can cycle through. This on top of all the other passive party healing, the water fields actual heals, and party regeneration makes elementalist capable of pumping out a crap ton healing. Albeit, not as much as you'd expect from healers in other mmos. They won't be able to let someone stand and face tank through a whole fight (without that person/group doing a crap ton of avoidance/control as well). But they'll still be capable of creating a huge healing safety net for the group as a whole.

Team healing isn't the end all be all support, as it shouldn't be according to arenanet, but it's still a huge part of elementalist's support toolkit if they gear/spec for it.

Edited by Ashkelon, 18 July 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Craywulf]

Combo'ing healing radically different than saying Elementalist can heal more than self-healing because it requires another player's involvement to parlay such benefit. I still don't believe it would offer greater healing than self-heals. I suspect it will be nerfed if it were true.

[Ashkelon]

Craywulf, on 18 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Combo'ing healing radically different than saying Elementalist can heal more than self-healing because it requires another player's involvement to parlay such benefit. I still don't believe it would offer greater healing than self-heals. I suspect it will be nerfed if it were true.

Even just combo'ing off their own water fields, the elementalist can generate about the amount that Drekor stated. Other people combo'ing off them as well are just a bonus.

And you can say "it will be nerfed" all day, but that's how it works now, and has for quite a while. So whether it is nerfed in the future, or stays about the same for the rest of gw2, the truth of the situation still holds.

[Drekor]

Craywulf, on 18 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Combo'ing healing radically different than saying Elementalist can heal more than self-healing because it requires another player's involvement to parlay such benefit. I still don't believe it would offer greater healing than self-heals. I suspect it will be nerfed if it were true.

Here's how it works. It's possible to do this 100% solo:

Start in Earth
Eruption
Switch to Water (2k heal)
Geyser on top of eruption (1k)
Eruption goes off (2.5k)
Arcane Wave (2.5k)
Dodge roll (2.5k)
Jump-cancel roll
Dodge roll (2.5k)

That's 13k so far and doesn't even account for regeneration + soothing mists which could easily push this over 20k. This is easily possible every 20s. This is of course done with healing gear on, if you drop the healing gear then the numbers of course come down.

As a side note SB thieves can proc 3 blast finishers per 2s so having a water field alone has the potential to be huge and only ele's and rangers have them. I also fully expect ANet to nerf water field healing down to 500-1k per proc as it's strength right now is ridiculous.

Edited by Drekor, 18 July 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[Tevesh]

Also considering ele gets to spam blast finishers and ranger has none across the whole class..