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Vengeance - Bad for warriors downed survival


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#1 Sprinkles169

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:52 AM

I was thinking about this for the 100th time since playing in beta and I really need to get my opinion out there before it's too late. I have such a love/hate relationship with this skill. I like the idea and I think it's great and works well with the warrior. BUT, I absolutely hate how the second I push that button, I'm dead. It feels like I'm giving up. Every time I have to use it I feel like I am hitting the nuke button because my enemies already have launched theirs. I'm just doing it in pure vain. Nobody is winning in this situation. "Good, I was able to kill that mob using vengeance. Now I'm just gonna stand here for a few seconds and die anyways..."

This is the best case scenario for vengeance. Ok, the best case scenario would be using it and barely killing an enemy who would have otherwise captured/won in pvp. Or possibly and barely being able to down a boss after using it. And that is just plain situational imo. I won't even consider killing a normal mob with it as useful. Because its not, either way you are going to die and have to re spawn. Really, I can't find myself feeling satisfied in any other way while using this skill. It completely kills the whole the whole 'fight to survive' feeling of downed state. When it comes to survival, I actually feel like Warriors are almost the most fragile (in downed state) because of this.

I do think just changing it to just being able to rally would make it way OP. Other changes would definitely have to take place. First, cut the duration of it by a lot. Maybe just make it last a few seconds even. That's a big compensation from 15. Furthermore, use the same amount of health from your downed state. Currently it restores your hp and let's you do your thing before death. It should be a few seconds of desperation, and then falling back down. If it keeps the downed state health, you are probably pretty much dead at this point anyways. Still, this is a very worthy tradeoff imo. The major trait sweet revenge is pretty pitiful. It's only a small chance to rally and have to go down discipline just to have it. Meh...

tl;dr Vengeance is a very situational downed state skill that takes away from the survival mechanic of downed state and rarely proves itself very useful.

#2 Bunzaga

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:54 AM

I think if you can kill someone while Vengeanced, you should be able to remain alive.  In most PvP situations, you are dead before you can even use Vengeance.  If you do pull off using it, and then being able to kill an opponent (not just knocking them down) within 15 seconds deserves the reward of letting you stay alive.

If that is too 'overpowered', then maybe killing an opponent while Vengeanced should refresh the 15 second timer?

I also agree with the OP, that the trait "Sweet Revenge" is absolute trash.  I don't think I ever had it trigger.

#3 Shamadamun

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:04 AM

Mmm I just can't really agree with this. I just think it's far too awesome of a mechanic!

I understand what you mean by trying to survive, but I just think it's the perfect abilty for the raging-machine that is the warrior! After all, warriors aren't meant to soley be protective beings, they have a touch of berserker in them.

View PostBunzaga, on 15 July 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

If that is too 'overpowered', then maybe killing an opponent while Vengeanced should refresh the 15 second timer?

This sounds nifty, but a tad overpowered. I think you should count yourself lucky in alot of situations! I feel even more helpless than a warrior when all I can do is lay down a little fetid pool and wait for enemies to smash my face in, while at least if you know you're going to die you just spring back up and wreak some havoc!

#4 geala

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:13 AM

I think vengeance as it is fits perfectly with the Warrior. Take the guy with you, at least try it. If you shortened its time or the life pool, it would be totally useless. Increasing the chance to rally with "Sweet Revenge" sounds alluring but might be too op.

#5 Mexay

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:43 AM

I totally agree with the OP. Vengeance is absolute rubish. Especially in PvE.

Why is it that I can get up, kill something and then I HAVE TO DIE. Sure, in PvP it's great, because it actually has a use, but for PvE it's just giving up.

Shorten the timer to 5 seconds, give a rally if you can kill it, use the downed state health. No heals allowed.

This would totally fix the problem. It would still function as an "Emergency Button" but it also would mean that you couldn't just use it at the last minute, you would have to make an actual decision. Hell even:

"You temporarily rally for 5 seconds, you can not heal or be healed and your utility skills are disabled. Killing a foe will rally you. If No foe is killed with 5 seconds, you become defeated"

or something like that.

The warrior is just too UP when in downed. the moment you hit the skill, regardless of what happens, it's game over. They might as well just give you a 15 second timer and then defeat instead of downed.

#6 Kreen

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:30 AM

Actually,  if you are playing as part of a team even if there are just two of you, vengeance becomes a lot more useful. I agree that for solo play its not very useful at all.

Given that Arenanet are doing everything they can to encourage team play then it makes sense and is a very useful skill in that context.

#7 Elemental Gearbolt

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

Quote

The warrior is just too UP when in downed. the moment you hit the skill, regardless of what happens, it's game over. They might as well just give you a 15 second timer and then defeat instead of downed

Lol this sentence has made my day, the most OP profession in downed state is considered UP?? Like you find and interrupt and vengeance mechanic on other professions where you just wait to be stomped without you being able to do anything ( no interrupts- no auto-rally---just shit skills on a 40s CD...lol) even Anet admitted that other professions downed skills plainly suck compared to warrior and they working on it..so give me a break

#8 Shinimas

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostElemental Gearbolt, on 15 July 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Lol this sentence has made my day, the most OP profession in downed state is considered UP?? Like you find and interrupt and vengeance mechanic on other professions where you just wait to be stomped without you being able to do anything ( no interrupts- no auto-rally---just shit skills on a 40s CD...lol) even Anet admitted that other professions downed skills plainly suck compared to warrior and they working on it..so give me a break

This, really. Ele's downed skills are pretty nice, Thief's are broken atm, but Warrior is definitely in the top 3.

#9 Primum_Agmen

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:42 PM

I've never thought to try it, but I think you could probably use Vengeance to self-rez if you have Battle Standard as your elite. Once Vengeance is up, you should have enough time to cast Battle Standard. Turn on your enemy or enemies and try to bring them down, your Vengeance runs out and you die, but Battle Standard begins reviving you. Obviously, this would work far better in PvE.

#10 Crosier

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

View PostPrimum_Agmen, on 15 July 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

I've never thought to try it, but I think you could probably use Vengeance to self-rez if you have Battle Standard as your elite. Once Vengeance is up, you should have enough time to cast Battle Standard. Turn on your enemy or enemies and try to bring them down, your Vengeance runs out and you die, but Battle Standard begins reviving you. Obviously, this would work far better in PvE.

Won't the Battle Standard disappear when you are defeated?

#11 Primum_Agmen

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostCrosier, on 15 July 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Won't the Battle Standard disappear when you are defeated?

It shouldn't. Battle Standard is an environmental weapon... during its duration anyone can pick it up and use it.

Edited by Primum_Agmen, 15 July 2012 - 02:52 PM.


#12 Sprinkles169

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:09 PM

View PostPrimum_Agmen, on 15 July 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

I've never thought to try it, but I think you could probably use Vengeance to self-rez if you have Battle Standard as your elite. Once Vengeance is up, you should have enough time to cast Battle Standard. Turn on your enemy or enemies and try to bring them down, your Vengeance runs out and you die, but Battle Standard begins reviving you. Obviously, this would work far better in PvE.

I don't think this would work. After you press that '3' button. You are doomed. It is impossible to rally while you are vengeancing, because you are downed. The very second the 15 seconds are up, instant death.

This actually brings up another thing I was thinking about after posting this. Vengeance can really hurt the whole teamwork and cooperation thing built into the game. First of all, it counteracts with players noticing you are downed and possibly running over to save you. What if it would be a so-so close call, but downed warrior decides "Looks like I'm just going to be screwed, better vengeance." He then gets up and the guy standing behind him goes through a small phase of confusion and then disappointment. He could have been saved but he wasn't aware that the savior was almost there. This also applies to any skills that can be used to rally allies. I know warrior has at least two. I may be nit picking at this point, but it's just another disappointing thing about vengeance.

View PostElemental Gearbolt, on 15 July 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Lol this sentence has made my day, the most OP profession in downed state is considered UP?? Like you find and interrupt and vengeance mechanic on other professions where you just wait to be stomped without you being able to do anything ( no interrupts- no auto-rally---just shit skills on a 40s CD...lol) even Anet admitted that other professions downed skills plainly suck compared to warrior and they working on it..so give me a break

It's not about how strong it is compared to other professions' downed states. Though I do feel really weak in downed knowing my strongest skill IS going to kill me. It's about it not really fitting into game mechanics and being quite situational. I mean, they mind as well change the text for downed state on warriors from 'fight to survive!' to 'fight to the death!' because that's really what kind of motto it is. If you think it is, or it is op. I would happily take a change for it as a nerf. Nerf power, up survivability and versatility. Fine by me. I would even take a whole different skill, though I'm sure all of us warriors do love the idea at the core.

#13 Ayestes

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:13 PM

If the leaked notes were accurate (seems likely with the leaked audio too), then Vengeance will have a 25% chance to rally per kill and 100% with the Tier 1 Discipline Trait.  

To be honest though, I tend to agree that it's one of the better downed state skills.  We have damage, cc, and a button to click when all hope is lost.  You shouldn't use it unless it's going to make a difference, in other words... if you are going to for certain die and can kill your target.

#14 Sprinkles169

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:45 PM

That's quite disappointing. That 25% chance can mean everything to a warrior or a team. Putting that much on the line and hoping for an RNG... :/ Seeing it as a specific tier trait is also kind of lame. As I currently feel, that just tempts me to incorporate it in every build. Not exactly interesting or fun imo...

Also, I just realized that the survivor title has already made its way into this game. This further shows how vengeance does not fit into downed states mechanic. Warriors will have a hell of a time trying to get that title when they cant use their skill that's supposed to be the best, last hope for survival. I imagine some of the worlds worst rage quits.

#15 llwydakers

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:57 PM

I think your problem with the skill is mindset.  I love the skill, but I also have no problems losing a battle if I win the war.  Also, no one has mentioned that the  sPvP timer is static, so if someone states it's near one, pop vengeance, croak, and be back in action in 3 seconds or less.

#16 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:08 PM

It may be heresy to say it, but I kinda feel like this skill should be split for PvE vs PvP.  In PvE, the skill is close to worthless (maybe as close as it gets?), but in PvP it can be pretty powerful (still not great I'd say though).  Some of the suggested changes already posted (such as not dying if you kill something) would be great, but probably too powerful for PvP of any kind.  That particular change would be pretty nice in PvE though.  I kind of feel like they threw that particular skill in there as an homage to the skill in GW with the same name... but the thing is that particular skill in GW was also not very popular or useful except in certain gimmick uses.  I'd certainly be in favor of this skill being changed to be useful...

#17 Primum_Agmen

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:32 PM

View PostSprinkles169, on 15 July 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I don't think this would work. After you press that '3' button. You are doomed. It is impossible to rally while you are vengeancing, because you are downed. The very second the 15 seconds are up, instant death.

I believe Battle Standard actually revives... I didn't say rally. Once you die, that is when your Vengeance timer runs out, the Battle Standard will begin reviving you just as a player could.

I'm not talking about bringing you back (rallying) you from the downed state, I'm talking about reviving you after you've died.

#18 Dirame

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostMexay, on 15 July 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I totally agree with the OP. Vengeance is absolute rubish. Especially in PvE.

Why is it that I can get up, kill something and then I HAVE TO DIE. Sure, in PvP it's great, because it actually has a use, but for PvE it's just giving up.

Shorten the timer to 5 seconds, give a rally if you can kill it, use the downed state health. No heals allowed.

This would totally fix the problem. It would still function as an "Emergency Button" but it also would mean that you couldn't just use it at the last minute, you would have to make an actual decision. Hell even:

"You temporarily rally for 5 seconds, you can not heal or be healed and your utility skills are disabled. Killing a foe will rally you. If No foe is killed with 5 seconds, you become defeated"

or something like that.

The warrior is just too UP when in downed. the moment you hit the skill, regardless of what happens, it's game over. They might as well just give you a 15 second timer and then defeat instead of downed.

In a PvE team situation, Vengeance + "I will avenge you" = You can comeback from a bad situation. The rumours say they've upped the default chance to revive to 25% and sweet revenge has been changed to a 100% chance to revive.

Edited by Dirame, 15 July 2012 - 08:33 PM.


#19 Kreen

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostDirame, on 15 July 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

In a PvE team situation, Vengeance + "I will avenge you" = You can comeback from a bad situation. The rumours say they've upped the default chance to revive to 25% and sweet revenge has been changed to a 100% chance to revive.

If this is true then it makes the sweet revenge skill a great take for solo or small team pve particularly at low levels given you can get it at level 20 and your first 10 points would likely be in discipline anyway for the weapon swapping bonuses.

If I am playing with others then the ability to get up and help the team for another 15 seconds is quite powerful and could turn things in the teams favour if it is a tight spot. If I fail to rally then one or more of my team can revive me from a defeated state once the battle is won. Thats why I think the real power of vengeance comes with team play.The defeated state after 15 seconds is only an issue if I am alone.

#20 Sprinkles169

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 15 July 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

It may be heresy to say it, but I kinda feel like this skill should be split for PvE vs PvP.  In PvE, the skill is close to worthless (maybe as close as it gets?), but in PvP it can be pretty powerful (still not great I'd say though).  Some of the suggested changes already posted (such as not dying if you kill something) would be great, but probably too powerful for PvP of any kind.  That particular change would be pretty nice in PvE though.  I kind of feel like they threw that particular skill in there as an homage to the skill in GW with the same name... but the thing is that particular skill in GW was also not very popular or useful except in certain gimmick uses.  I'd certainly be in favor of this skill being changed to be useful...

I don't really like the idea of splitting abilities between pvp/pve. But, I'd make an exception just because I dislike how it works so much. Though, if vengeance used the same hp bar as the downed state, I don't see it being too op in pvp. This is because eventually death penalty will start racking up. And even though you are getting right back up, you are still technically downed. If you are near the red in DP, you are going to drop fast.

This way, I feel, keeps the part of the skill we all like to use while making it more useful for its purpose. I imagine it as a surge of adrenaline that allows the warrior to ignore his wounds and stand up swinging for a few seconds 'in the name of vengeance'.

View PostPrimum_Agmen, on 15 July 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

I believe Battle Standard actually revives... I didn't say rally. Once you die, that is when your Vengeance timer runs out, the Battle Standard will begin reviving you just as a player could.

I'm not talking about bringing you back (rallying) you from the downed state, I'm talking about reviving you after you've died.

View PostDirame, on 15 July 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

In a PvE team situation, Vengeance + "I will avenge you" = You can comeback from a bad situation. The rumours say they've upped the default chance to revive to 25% and sweet revenge has been changed to a 100% chance to revive.

I'm not particularly sure how I feel about all of this. It either sounds a bit gimmicky, or like it would be very good to use in most builds. Either way, it doesn't really fix the problem at its core imo. I didn't know a lot of this, thanks.

Edited by Sprinkles169, 15 July 2012 - 08:57 PM.


#21 Mexay

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostDirame, on 15 July 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

In a PvE team situation, Vengeance + "I will avenge you" = You can comeback from a bad situation. The rumours say they've upped the default chance to revive to 25% and sweet revenge has been changed to a 100% chance to revive.

I too heard this, from one of the CBTs

#22 lmaonade

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:06 AM

Vengeance is fine imo, you'd use it when the situation seems hopeless anyway, and when it is apparent that your team isn't going to win the battle anyway

if you're going out anyway, why not go out with a bang.

#23 Sprinkles169

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:40 PM

^^^You're not looking into this nearly deep enough. Why not go out with a bang? Because what does that have to do with actual game play. Things shouldn't be in the game because 'why not?'. It's rarely even a bang either really. It can be changed in a way that gives you more than a hard 25% chance of survival and still feel the way it is, imo.

#24 Insanius_Maximus

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:47 PM

I actually have an idea. Vengeance is an act of desperation. My idea is that, yes, you should be downed by Vengeance, except in this case:
You use Vengeance and get up. You then have, what, 15 seconds to kill a mob. If you kill one, then you should gain 15 more seconds. If in those 15 other seconds, you can kill someone else, you trigger a Rally. It's basically a process of "seeing the tide turn in your favour". If Vengeance is the desperation state, that which I'd like to call "Hope" if it were a skill would be what happens when you see you're rocking faces and might have a chance to live.

#25 Draconious

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:44 PM

I believe it is fine as is. Now I will play an engineer as my main but i have experimented with the warrior during bwes. To the point, while it is a you are going to die no matter what ability think of what you gain. You gain for 15s the opportunity to use all your abilities to kill your enemy, no other profession has anything close to this. All other professions have to stay in downed and pray to the gods that someone does not stomp them or that they get a kill or a rez. Getting those things are hard. Think of another profession in the situation that a warrior using stomp will be in. That profession will most likely die, the warrior however has two choices fight like all other professions in a downed state (spam 1 and pray) or get up and kick your enemy's ass. It a choice you make, kill your enemy and yourself or try to survive like all the other professions.

#26 Sprinkles169

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostInsanius_Maximus, on 16 July 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I actually have an idea. Vengeance is an act of desperation. My idea is that, yes, you should be downed by Vengeance, except in this case:
You use Vengeance and get up. You then have, what, 15 seconds to kill a mob. If you kill one, then you should gain 15 more seconds. If in those 15 other seconds, you can kill someone else, you trigger a Rally. It's basically a process of "seeing the tide turn in your favour". If Vengeance is the desperation state, that which I'd like to call "Hope" if it were a skill would be what happens when you see you're rocking faces and might have a chance to live.

I like this idea. It makes things a little more difficult, but a chance, to use vengeance as a survival technique. But, only problem is that it sounds rather opportunistic and even more so situational.

View PostDraconious, on 16 July 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I believe it is fine as is. Now I will play an engineer as my main but i have experimented with the warrior during bwes. To the point, while it is a you are going to die no matter what ability think of what you gain. You gain for 15s the opportunity to use all your abilities to kill your enemy, no other profession has anything close to this. All other professions have to stay in downed and pray to the gods that someone does not stomp them or that they get a kill or a rez. Getting those things are hard. Think of another profession in the situation that a warrior using stomp will be in. That profession will most likely die, the warrior however has two choices fight like all other professions in a downed state (spam 1 and pray) or get up and kick your enemy's ass. It a choice you make, kill your enemy and yourself or try to survive like all the other professions.

I don't really think or feel it always turns out this way. Besides, won't knowledgeable PvP'ers just start ignoring/kiting warriors when they use vengeance. I personally don't like the idea of this skill always being a cue benny hill song moment. And if it is going to stay this way, with that mindset. The next step is pushing the downed state text on warrior to 'Fight to the death!' :P

#27 Primum_Agmen

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostSprinkles169, on 16 July 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Besides, won't knowledgeable PvP'ers just start ignoring/kiting warriors when they use vengeance.

The good ones already do. Why engage an enemy that will kill himself? That will hold even more true when staying away from him prevents him from being able to rally.

Edited by Primum_Agmen, 16 July 2012 - 07:06 PM.


#28 Draconious

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:19 PM

The ability is named Vengeance, not i will kill you then continue living and kill your family.

People modify how they play according to what their opponet can do. For instance when I stomp a theif in downed state I run at him like im going to stomp buy i also shoot at him so that when he blinks away the bullet follows him and i can easily find him.

Also during vengeance you gain access to all you abilities, so if someone can kite you for 15s then either you suck or you aren't in a build to stop kiting.

#29 Primum_Agmen

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostDraconious, on 16 July 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Also during vengeance you gain access to all you abilities, so if someone can kite you for 15s then either you suck or you aren't in a build to stop kiting.

Just to play devil's advocate here, I think you could also say that anyone incapable of kiting/surviving against someone for 15sec also sucks or isn't playing a build capable of kiting. ;)

#30 Hep

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:45 PM

I just don't think it's a fair discussion to discuss the skill in a vacuum away from the other professions' downed skills. If that's considered and they don't buff a bunch of other professions' downed skills, changing Vengeance has only one direction to go on the power scale, and that's down.




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