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Mesmer OP?

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#31 Electro Mouse

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:46 AM

They're mostly annoying, like mosquitos lol. Didn't waste my time on them, just kept ignoring them.

#32 Banker

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:54 PM

View PostElectro Mouse, on 23 July 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

They're mostly annoying, like mosquitos lol. Didn't waste my time on them, just kept ignoring them.

yep you do that and il get 3 phantasms on you. youl run out of blood soon enough :D

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#33 kilger

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:09 PM

Against players that dont have AOE damage you can really mess with them, but the ones that do can just annihillate mesmers.

I dont know what to suggest to balance it, maybe give illusions immunity to aoe, or very high resistance.

Its easy to feel strong on a strong team, but when you get a team thats not holding ground so well you quickly see how all your weaknesses come to the forefront.

Or against a player that knows what they are doing.  You can dissect a mesmer like no other class by taking out their illusions.  No other class has this weakness, except maybe a null field on a guardian is pretty strong too.

#34 blakdoxa

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

In hot join, there was plenty of people dumping aoe. Very unfortunate...

#35 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:16 PM

View Postkilger, on 23 July 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Against players that dont have AOE damage you can really mess with them, but the ones that do can just annihillate mesmers.

I dont know what to suggest to balance it, maybe give illusions immunity to aoe, or very high resistance.

Its easy to feel strong on a strong team, but when you get a team thats not holding ground so well you quickly see how all your weaknesses come to the forefront.

Or against a player that knows what they are doing.  You can dissect a mesmer like no other class by taking out their illusions.  No other class has this weakness, except maybe a null field on a guardian is pretty strong too.
Ha, you take out my illusions all you want with my build ... every one you kill puts cripple + confusion + bleeding/burning/poison ... I thoroughly enjoyed watching people swat at my clones like it didn't matter. I felt like I actually killed people much quicker and more easily taking some points out of phantasm damage into on-clone-death traits ... I do wish that at least one of those (confusion would make sense) was just the default rather than requiring a trait.

#36 Awake

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:51 PM

View PostStrigidae, on 23 July 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

yep you do that and il get 3 phantasms on you. youl run out of blood soon enough :D

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Any player with half a brain will never let you get 3 phantasms out. Players with a full brain will barely let you keep 2 out.

#37 Nuu

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:52 PM

No, not OP because I use the mesmer. Just for the fact I don't use OP professions. Therefore mesmer =/= OP. but seriously...I've played it since BWE1 & I've had to literally practice for a couple hours on my strategy...some certainly don't think OP is attached.

#38 kilger

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:18 PM

View PostSebrent_Tehroth, on 23 July 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Ha, you take out my illusions all you want with my build ... every one you kill puts cripple + confusion + bleeding/burning/poison ... I thoroughly enjoyed watching people swat at my clones like it didn't matter. I felt like I actually killed people much quicker and more easily taking some points out of phantasm damage into on-clone-death traits ... I do wish that at least one of those (confusion would make sense) was just the default rather than requiring a trait.

Youre fighting dumb people.  I know the people you're talking about, I met lots of them too.  Or at least they had no idea or didnt trait for any way to fight against a mesmer.

I'm talking about someone that nukes down all your illusions immediately and you as well.  Mostly a few high damage aoe elementalists I've come across leave practically no room for me to get any amount of illusions out, but they probably come in warrior variety too.

Anyone thats going to be thrown off by your conditions isnt the person I'm talking about here.  I am mostly traited for them as well btw.

#39 oelph

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:20 PM

This was my first beta weekend spent entirely on a Mesmer. It didn't feel OP and felt like it has a learning curve to become effective. Whereas watching a ranger take down training mobs looked extremely easy.

#40 MSpurrier24

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:16 PM

Yeah this was my first time playing Mesmer and I was surprised I got the kill streak, but you guys are right it's not like they were amazing players, but you would think like 3 on 1 they would be able to win? The clones are very good but the phantasms really need more health they get one hitted every time lol.

I didn't think there was any OP classes this time around except for sometimes a necro would give me some trouble If they summon all minions, guardian felt better too.

#41 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:49 PM

View Postkilger, on 23 July 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Youre fighting dumb people.  I know the people you're talking about, I met lots of them too.  Or at least they had no idea or didnt trait for any way to fight against a mesmer.

I'm talking about someone that nukes down all your illusions immediately and you as well.  Mostly a few high damage aoe elementalists I've come across leave practically no room for me to get any amount of illusions out, but they probably come in warrior variety too.

Anyone thats going to be thrown off by your conditions isnt the person I'm talking about here.  I am mostly traited for them as well btw.
First, who "traits to fight a mesmer" ? We're 1 of 8 professions in the game.

Someone that nukes down all my illusions? Well, if they are hitting them, good for them as they're getting 3 conditions from each one they kill. As I mentioned earlier, with sword this works especially well as my clones want in my opponent's face.

If it was an elementalist doing AOE, they either tried to get in my face with dagger (offhand at the least) in which case a simple dodge roll is easy. Otherwise, having a brain works just fine since staff/scepter elementalist AOEs are easy to avoid.

The point of the conditions wasn't to "throw people off", it was do deal damage to them and hinder them. Cripple lowers their positioning capabilities while confusion and bleed/burning/poison deal more damage.

#42 kilger

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostSebrent_Tehroth, on 23 July 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

First, who "traits to fight a mesmer" ? We're 1 of 8 professions in the game.

Someone that nukes down all my illusions? Well, if they are hitting them, good for them as they're getting 3 conditions from each one they kill. As I mentioned earlier, with sword this works especially well as my clones want in my opponent's face.

If it was an elementalist doing AOE, they either tried to get in my face with dagger (offhand at the least) in which case a simple dodge roll is easy. Otherwise, having a brain works just fine since staff/scepter elementalist AOEs are easy to avoid.

The point of the conditions wasn't to "throw people off", it was do deal damage to them and hinder them. Cripple lowers their positioning capabilities while confusion and bleed/burning/poison deal more damage.

Big f-ing whoop.  3 conditions when you get killed in 3x3 seconds.  I dont think we're talking about the same kind of opponent.  btw, I mean has aoe traits in general, the rest are fodder if youre skilled.   How do you avoid elementalist AOEs so easy?  Dodge only works twice and you cant cast so it doesnt get you anywhere in the end.

#43 Nettle

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

From a pvp standpoint, pushing rank 20 from this weekend... Hardly OP.  They feel just about right in team fights, but are fairly underwhelming in small skirmishes.  They bring good team support and control, can be decently survivable, but their very best damage specs don't come close to any of the specs I ran on my ranger or (lesser played) thief.

I spent quite a bit more time on a ranger this weekend compared to the mesmer for this or the last beta, and I don't think I was ever once close to taken down by a mesmer.  They certainly weren't a class I worried about in small engagements.  That said, I do think they bring a good utility to group fights, and my team often ran with one in our tourney comp.

#44 kilger

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

I'm thinking maybe using clone based build may be my problem since they die so easy.

Phantasm/burst build may be the way to go.  Sucks though when main class mechanic is not a good build.

#45 MSpurrier24

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:22 PM

View PostNettle, on 23 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

From a pvp standpoint, pushing rank 20 from this weekend... Hardly OP.  They feel just about right in team fights, but are fairly underwhelming in small skirmishes.  They bring good team support and control, can be decently survivable, but their very best damage specs don't come close to any of the specs I ran on my ranger or (lesser played) thief.

I spent quite a bit more time on a ranger this weekend compared to the mesmer for this or the last beta, and I don't think I was ever once close to taken down by a mesmer.  They certainly weren't a class I worried about in small engagements.  That said, I do think they bring a good utility to group fights, and my team often ran with one in our tourney comp.
exactly like my friend was complaining about how "OP" they were? but they are meant to kinda support by giving buffs to allies and debuffs to enemies, the clones is like how we stay alive they are supportive but if you go up against trash as i did, you can kill ALOT of people. I think they are a great asset to any tourney team

#46 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:49 PM

View Postkilger, on 23 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Big f-ing whoop.  3 conditions when you get killed in 3x3 seconds.  I dont think we're talking about the same kind of opponent.  btw, I mean has aoe traits in general, the rest are fodder if youre skilled.   How do you avoid elementalist AOEs so easy?  Dodge only works twice and you cant cast so it doesnt get you anywhere in the end.
Obviously someone didn't take these then. It's 3 conditions multiplied by the number of clones you force them to go through ... basically translates to clones just about always inflicting damage on your enemy whether they live, die, or get shattered.

Avoiding elementalist AOE is cake. Staff or Scepter elementalist? simply move, maybe dodge roll if your movement has been impaired. If they have an off-hand dagger, look for them to right the lightning ... dodge away when they are about to hit. The meanest is the quick AOE knockdown from earth but I didn't ever really have trouble here since my utilities were all about getting me out of stuns and conditions.

No, dodge rolls don't allow you to cast during them, but mine were creating more clones for me. On top of this, smart dodging is part of the game. If you avoid damage spikes and other CC through proper use of dodge, block, etc. then you will do well. It's well worth it to stop attacking for a second to avoid these from your opponent ... and your dodge bar regenerates. If you think dodge rolls don't get you anywhere in the end then just "lol".


View Postkilger, on 23 July 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

I'm thinking maybe using clone based build may be my problem since they die so easy.

Phantasm/burst build may be the way to go.  Sucks though when main class mechanic is not a good build.
You do realize that thinking you have to choose between "clone build" and "phantasm build" is what a majority of people having trouble with playing as a Mesmer are doing? Look through the forums here and in the official beta ones. The people most often complaining about Mesmer are the ones also talking about "clone builds" and "phantasm builds" ... using one or the other, having to pick between them, etc. The ones not complaining about Mesmer comparatively aren't by a large factor. In fact, most of the time you see the latter group mention them, it is because they are directly replying to a post from someone in the former group.

The class mechanic worked fine for me. Want damage? You've got two great shatters for that. Want to interrupt? Covered. Want some invulnerability that didn't require you to invest and traits, pick a particular weapon, nor use a healing/utility/elite slot? Covered.

My guild did a few tournament matches and did fine. On my mesmer I was our "1v1 guy" of sorts. Later when we did the tournament games again, I switched to Engineer and didn't do nearly as well. It wasn't because Engineer is better/worse than Mesmer, it's because my playstyle and the Mesmer's capabilities mesh well and the Mesmer, despite being the class in the "roughest shape" is still solid. Perhaps you should take a step back and think, "Plenty of people are doing more than fine with Mesmer, but I'm not ... what is the difference". Since there is only one "Mesmer" class in the game, the answer should be obvious.

#47 prince vingador

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:55 PM

i played a few mesmers and i must say i had no big problems...apart the moa morph,come on thats OP,u have like 10 seconds to kill the guy and it counters any skill,in fact i stop playing a MM because it kills all the minions.so no mesmers are not OP only that skill'in my opinion'

#48 TYphoon34

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:25 PM

View PostKillyox, on 23 July 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

on targets with absolutely 0 toughness: maybe.

I'm including the bleed damage, but yea, it deals around 7k pretty easily.

#49 Sonzai_Moto

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:39 PM

View PostTomalak2, on 22 July 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

No, I don't. Faced them in PvP as a Guardian, and I wouldn't say they are OP.

Maybe you're too good? :P

You must have been playing against me then. :lol: I just couldn't take down guardians, even with my power/precision build.

Edited by Sonzai_Moto, 23 July 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#50 soloria

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:22 PM

So how many of you guys Moa birded the keep lord and duo'ed it :D

#51 darkblue

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:04 AM

View PostTYphoon34, on 23 July 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I'm including the bleed damage, but yea, it deals around 7k pretty easily.

I also seriously doubt that. Especially if you don't trait for phantasmal strength and empowered illusions as in the build you posted.

Bleeds (which is not really a factor here, just a few hundreds damage added)+sigil of air proc+lucky crits and I guess you could get close to 7k in a pure glasscanon build but 7k is clearly not something you should expect from it.
In my experience, without those traits and without a proc half of that is more realistic.

#52 Culture Shock

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostMSpurrier24, on 23 July 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

yeah im not godly ahaha far from it, but i could not get killed? using mirror image then running when im in trouble just use decoy and blink and noone can catch me?

I wouldn't really consider "running" in the same category with OP.  ...... of course I could be wrong?  .... but I don't think so.... :P

#53 kilger

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:48 AM

View PostSebrent_Tehroth, on 23 July 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

No, dodge rolls don't allow you to cast during them, but mine were creating more clones for me. On top of this, smart dodging is part of the game. If you avoid damage spikes and other CC through proper use of dodge, block, etc. then you will do well. It's well worth it to stop attacking for a second to avoid these from your opponent ... and your dodge bar regenerates. If you think dodge rolls don't get you anywhere in the end then just "lol".

I have that trait too.  Heres the reality: You know that clone you just left behind to dodge the aoe... yea its still in the aoe.  need I say more?  I know how to use dodge.  Maybe not perfect since if I was perfect I wouldnt need to play at release, but I've gotta tell you, nothing you've said here hasnt been tried so far, and heres the news: It doesnt help.  If you knew what I was talking about, your response would start something like "yea there are guys who are way tougher to take down but this is what you do..." but you've obviously never run into these guys so...

#54 TYphoon34

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:23 AM

View Postdarkblue, on 24 July 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I also seriously doubt that. Especially if you don't trait for phantasmal strength and empowered illusions as in the build you posted.

Bleeds (which is not really a factor here, just a few hundreds damage added)+sigil of air proc+lucky crits and I guess you could get close to 7k in a pure glasscanon build but 7k is clearly not something you should expect from it.
In my experience, without those traits and without a proc half of that is more realistic.

If I'm rolling a phantasm build...I think I'll leave it at that.

It really did about 7k damage. You can believe me or you can't, all I know is, I drop duelist and berserker, dodge for one clone, few splash hits and let the bleeds go through and Mind Wrack. Anything besides a Warrior, Necro and some Gaurdians melt like ice cream in a Virginian summer.

#55 Zebes

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 02:26 AM

Yes, Mesmer is the Original Poster.

#56 Feralz

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:26 AM

View PostAwake, on 23 July 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Any player with half a brain will never let you get 3 phantasms out. Players with a full brain will barely let you keep 2 out.

its so easy to get 3 phantasms out, have you ever heard of weapon swapping?

#57 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:27 AM

View Postkilger, on 24 July 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

I have that trait too.  Heres the reality: You know that clone you just left behind to dodge the aoe... yea its still in the aoe.  need I say more?  I know how to use dodge.  Maybe not perfect since if I was perfect I wouldnt need to play at release, but I've gotta tell you, nothing you've said here hasnt been tried so far, and heres the news: It doesnt help.  If you knew what I was talking about, your response would start something like "yea there are guys who are way tougher to take down but this is what you do..." but you've obviously never run into these guys so...
Really? because when I dodge rolled my clone was either [A] close enough to my opponent already for their death to apply confusion, crippling and chill/poison/burning/bleeding. [B] ran towards my opponent, hence out of the AOE.

I have not seen many other really talking about the on-death traits because most people dismissed them when we all learned that shattering doesn't trigger these traits. I was one of those people initially, but after testing I found it quite useful.

You keep saying "these guys" like I never played against anyone good and you did and that by stating this completely unprovable statement you can dismiss my points ... it's cute, especially since you were earlier talking about dodge rolling not being good since "you're not casting" so it "gets you nowhere". A good indicator of level of play there.

As for "what I would say" ... I believe I told you what to do ... dodge roll / block / etc. the critical attacks from your foe ... i.e. the damage spikes and/or CC. Aside from that, you simply need to have a decent build, which I think includes having some form of condition removal and a stunbreak. Condition removal because otherwise a single volley from a good condition build will just about kill you and stunbreak because you can't always successfully dodge enemy CC.

Edited by Sebrent_Tehroth, 24 July 2012 - 03:27 AM.


#58 MSpurrier24

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:11 AM

View PostCulture Shock, on 24 July 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

I wouldn't really consider "running" in the same category with OP.  ...... of course I could be wrong?  .... but I don't think so.... :P
ahahah i don't think it's OP but people in game were ranting... but isn't that the point of Mesmer? get in and get out and have people think theyre going to kill you then .... "hey where'd he go?"

#59 7thCylon

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:19 AM

judging from the amount of times i have died... no we are not op as memsers

#60 Xynth22

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:32 AM

It's all about the builds. With so many build combinations, nothing is truly OP or UP. It's just the build that you are using.





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