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Mesmer OP?

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#91 Naglifar

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:52 PM

I think we have another case of those oh so famous WoW Theorycrafters.

Cherrie would you mind sharing with us what rank you got to in sPvP? Your talking like your opinion is immanent, but something tells me your just another lil butterfly mask. How many hours have you played Mesmer? Did you ever try the whole team pvp concept or were you trying to solo PvP? Do you mean to tell everyone who is reading this that a Mesmer has never tricked you? Made you waste a skill? Or even killed you?

I think before you or any others continue to make absolute statements about a clearly capable mindgame maybe you should take your paperwork to the actual game and see if it's actually true. Better yet WATCH good mesmers in PvP videos.


#92 Naglifar

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 04:15 PM

This was when I was rank 2 in pvp...



Edited by Naglifar, 15 August 2012 - 04:25 PM.


#93 Epic_Bear_Guy

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:38 PM

Mines is. I had no issues with mesmers on my guardian or engineer though. So no, i don't think they're OP. You just need to know how to play against them.

#94 Kyris

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:23 AM

View PostMSpurrier24, on 22 July 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Are the Mesmer's Overpowered in PvP?

I have been playing one this whole BWE and i went on a 23 killing spree. I didnt do that much damage, but when i was facing others, using mirror images, decoy, and blink. I was able to get out of there before anyone would even get a chance to hit me.

Of course as all stereotype's of the Mesmer i was using a Great Sword, but is there really any other choice?

Do you think that the Mesmer which most people thought should be boosted and was least powerful class should be nerfed?
No it's not OP, you are just a godlike player with godlike skillz. Please teach me.

#95 MSpurrier24

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

View PostKyris, on 16 August 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

No it's not OP, you are just a godlike player with godlike skillz. Please teach me.
hahaha no i dont think that was it! but ill take the compliment!

my friend is just stupid ahahah if you play smart its not hard

#96 el hefe

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostNaglifar, on 15 August 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

I think we have another case of those oh so famous WoW Theorycrafters.

Cherrie would you mind sharing with us what rank you got to in sPvP? Your talking like your opinion is immanent, but something tells me your just another lil butterfly mask. How many hours have you played Mesmer? Did you ever try the whole team pvp concept or were you trying to solo PvP? Do you mean to tell everyone who is reading this that a Mesmer has never tricked you? Made you waste a skill? Or even killed you?

I think before you or any others continue to make absolute statements about a clearly capable mindgame maybe you should take your paperwork to the actual game and see if it's actually true. Better yet WATCH good mesmers in PvP videos.

i'm not sure what point you are trying to make but,  all pvp rank equates to is time.

#97 jt_brako

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

View PostMSpurrier24, on 22 July 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Of course as all stereotype's of the Mesmer i was using a Great Sword, but is there really any other choice?


GS is used in zerg ffa game. You don't play with a great sword if you play seriously (especially vs real players).
So ...

#98 frags

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:37 AM

View Postel hefe, on 16 August 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

i'm not sure what point you are trying to make but,  all pvp rank equates to is time.

I laughed when I first read it...

#99 Naglifar

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:59 AM

View Postel hefe, on 16 August 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

i'm not sure what point you are trying to make but,  all pvp rank equates to is time.

My point is that many people see something on paper and make assumptions. My second point is many players who are inexperienced in sPvP assume Mesmer is bad because they are unfamiliar with how the player versus player games play out due to lack of experience...

Making a statement from the standpoint of a player who's achieved higher ranks in PvP throughout the Betas and Stress test gives them grounds to make credible statements. As opposed to all the munchkins who 'try-out' Mesmer after rolling other classes and qq about their inability to push buttons and faceroll.

As it stands behind the Necro, the Mesmer has the second most survival potential. This however is granted the player is good, and specs/gears properly. It's stupid to wreck a horrible squishy Mesmer and proclaim the class is underpowered. But anyone who's played at least upwards to r9-10  has certainly gotten their face melted by a serious Mesmer.

#100 el hefe

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:04 AM

View PostNaglifar, on 17 August 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

My point is that many people see something on paper and make assumptions. My second point is many players who are inexperienced in sPvP assume Mesmer is bad because they are unfamiliar with how the player versus player games play out due to lack of experience...

Making a statement from the standpoint of a player who's achieved higher ranks in PvP throughout the Betas and Stress test gives them grounds to make credible statements. As opposed to all the munchkins who 'try-out' Mesmer after rolling other classes and qq about their inability to push buttons and faceroll.

As it stands behind the Necro, the Mesmer has the second most survival potential. This however is granted the player is good, and specs/gears properly. It's stupid to wreck a horrible squishy Mesmer and proclaim the class is underpowered. But anyone who's played at least upwards to r9-10  has certainly gotten their face melted by a serious Mesmer.

that makes much more sense to me than your other post.  and i agree with you.

#101 Naglifar

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:27 AM

On topic, Has anyone checked out Taugrim's Mesmer sPvP build 'Legion'?

Everyone is complaining about how horrible the shatter mechanic is, and here we have a fellow who actually works around the issue entirely. His approach creating a great Mesmer build is focused around keeping them alive and receiving passive buffs from their presence.

Quoted from his guide:

The build provides the following capabilities for illusions, in particular Phantasms:
  • meaningful direct damage
  • bleed damage
  • 3-9% damage buff
  • 3-9% mitigation buff
  • movement speed buff
  • regeneration boon
By reframing peoples general assumptions about illusions and shatter fodder, Taugrim makes a strong case for making every clone (potential bleed) both useful in their own right & useful to the Mesmer. Another great point he makes, that I've personally found to be true, is that Illusions are very excellent at tracking fleeing targets, and professions who re-appear from stealth and the like.

#102 Zebes

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:43 AM

His build works, but it's still a workaround of a major issue.

I did a alteration of some of the concepts in that build with an Illusion Live or Die build as I call it. It took the damage buff and damage mitigation traits so I gain strength by my illusions being up, while also taking the mind wrack increasing trait to make my Illusions valuable when I shatter them. Took a lot of crit and power, while not going full glass cannon. The point was that I would be effective whether my Illusions were up or not. I could shatter for a spike or use them as persistent damage and buffs.

http://gw2skills.net...nowxUjoGLOOck4A

Edited by Zebes, 17 August 2012 - 05:05 AM.


#103 Aitchkay

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:50 AM

View PostNaglifar, on 17 August 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

As it stands behind the Necro, the Mesmer has the second most survival potential. This however is granted the player is good, and specs/gears properly. It's stupid to wreck a horrible squishy Mesmer and proclaim the class is underpowered. But anyone who's played at least upwards to r9-10  has certainly gotten their face melted by a serious Mesmer.

I'm not sure how pickup sPvP rank equates to skill, or the likelihood of someone seeing good players.  Good players are found on winning tournament teams, not in random pickup sPvP matches.

Edited by Aitchkay, 17 August 2012 - 04:51 AM.


#104 Shamadamun

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:51 AM

Everything is overpowered and broken respectively. Buff and nerf everything.

#105 Anelyn

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:39 AM

Not OP at all. Huge problems with illusions and shattering skills. Has no instant burst, you need to set up for it, and even then is 50-50% if you can pull it off (considering that your opponent has some brains). Condition damage is weak compared to other classes who can stack conditions way faster and are not hindered by their class mechanics either.

Iduelist great in 1v1 open field, blows in place with lots of objects to hide behind, vs pet classes, and after all is a simple AI, you have no other control over it except ordering it to shatter.

Can you have success with a mesmer? Hell yes.

#106 Howl

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:27 AM

I don't think Mesmers are OP in any way, and in the last test we were really fine with the buffs we've got, that makes me more optimist for release than anything, the class really felt better than ever. (taking out the Phantasm bug ofc :P)

#107 Nerathas

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

Far from OP, also mesmer is one of the few  classes that still needs the most changes.
Its not because you are totally confused playing against one its OP.
People will get used to all the clones/phantasms making it even harder to play a mesmer properly.

#108 Ponzio

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:23 AM

View PostNaglifar, on 15 August 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

How to be deceptive:
1. Use staff, the clones match your attack speed & weapons in hand.
2. If it is appropriate (in a group setting) move less. People ignored me ALL the time.
3. Cast Clones behind walls, pillars, in chaos storm, or your foes back
4. Send in a pre-clone, drop a portal, if you can use blink to secretly pass a distracted player then open on them from thier back side, drop portal exit/port to entrance & send another clone, wait a few seconds then portal back to exit.
5. The sword clone will literally stand in place if his foe is out of range, and will attack when you do. To take this for your advantage: flee, find a corner, swap to sword, cast still clone, wait. If they chase you, and they are melee, they always assume the still things are clones. If they attack you - blurred frenzy, if they attack clone - swap, blurred frenzy.
6. Follow up iReposte Clone with Blurred Frenzy, when the run chase them immediately with your clone, on the way cast a swap clone, blink behind them and swap, they will almost always assume the clone behind them is you, good time for a shatter or staff opener (as your sword clones will put some vulnerability on the foe before they die).
8. Walk in a straight line towards another objective (with clones present)
9. Use swap sword clone in Chaos storm (or other combo field) the. Blink away, they will most likely attack the bubbled clone
10. Always have a target selected somewhere on the map (gates and stationary structures are good) spam clones on CD.

Call target than you always find the mesmer. No way that you can hide behind clones. Even if you dont, just spam aoe til everything is dead.

Edited by Ponzio, 17 August 2012 - 09:37 AM.


#109 Nerathas

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:04 AM

Call target really should not be possible on a mesmer.
They should be the masters of confusion, call mark and byebye confusion....

#110 Distortion24

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:06 AM

This OP stuff is getting rather annoying to say the least... So far every single class has been labeled as OP.... Yeah, that's all I got.

#111 devicus

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:57 AM

View PostAitchkay, on 17 August 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

I'm not sure how pickup sPvP rank equates to skill, or the likelihood of someone seeing good players.  Good players are found on winning tournament teams, not in random pickup sPvP matches.
A higher ranked pvp will have played a lot more matches however, and encountered a lot more other players. That's the only explanation.

Also I think I'm buying into the hypothesis put forward on page OP, the original poster was specced for tankyness and playing defensively, he got a massive kill streak because he contributed a little to each kill but he wasn't OP because he wasn't doing high damage face melting, he was just chipping in a little damage and focusing on staying alive. I imagine him being one of the lowest damage people on his team. Tanky players have a niche, especially if they're drawing fire from others but I suspect he wasn't drawing that much either. Without seeing a video it's all theory though.

#112 Aitchkay

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:01 PM

View Postdevicus, on 17 August 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

A higher ranked pvp will have played a lot more matches however, and encountered a lot more other players. That's the only explanation.

That's like saying driving to work everyday for a long time increases your chances of encountering professional race car drivers.  If you want to see professional drivers, you go to a race.  If you want to see good players, you go to a tournament.  Pickup sPvP will let you encounter more players, but they'll just be the same low skill players over and over.

#113 spelley

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 15 August 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

You are right. The AI should be drastically improved. Make clones evade and run away when they are attacked, just like the real mesmer would, and do not display the true health of the clones. Instead, display a health that behaves in the same way as the health of the real mesmer would.

The targeting glitch is also very questionable as it completly removes the misdirection factor of clones. I am not sure how to work around this one though. Maybe change the targeting system so that if you target a mesmer, you also target all clones of that particular mesmer.

I think anytime a clone would be produced in a situation where it is clearly supposed to be "replacing" you (Staff-2, Sword-3 Swap, Mirror Images) and anytime you would go into stealth (Down-2) you should be de-targetted. I would not be shocked if that was their eventual goal.

As for the AI...if they could do so without making every Mesmer clone take up mass CPU cycles (for an MMO), I am sure they would. Saying "make better AI" comes at a cost that  I don't think A-Net could really afford.

#114 devicus

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

View PostAitchkay, on 17 August 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

That's like saying driving to work everyday for a long time increases your chances of encountering professional race car drivers.  If you want to see professional drivers, you go to a race.  If you want to see good players, you go to a tournament.  Pickup sPvP will let you encounter more players, but they'll just be the same low skill players over and over.
Aside from top gamers still doing the odd PUG match, being average and having your face melted only requires you match up someone who's a couple of deviations above average (if that). It's more like saying if you drive around a lot you'll find someone who's in the top 5% of driving skill eventually. I think you're making some very needless assumptions about what I meant, and if they were true you'd be almost right. Except for there not only being 3 or 4 roads in the world.

#115 Lewis B

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:17 PM

I would consider in the right hands the Mesmer is incredible.  It isn't an easy profession to play or play well.  I think that's the key difference.

#116 Aitchkay

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:22 PM

View Postdevicus, on 17 August 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Aside from top gamers still doing the odd PUG match, being average and having your face melted only requires you match up someone who's a couple of deviations above average (if that). It's more like saying if you drive around a lot you'll find someone who's in the top 5% of driving skill eventually. I think you're making some very needless assumptions about what I meant, and if they were true you'd be almost right. Except for there not only being 3 or 4 roads in the world.

The idea is that assigning skill to your pickup sPvP rank is wrong.  This gets even worse when people use this to somehow try to prove that someone else's posts are invalid.  It becomes a classic case of a mediocre player using aa arbitrary number to make himself look superior to other people, when in reality he's just as bad, if not worse.

Edited by Aitchkay, 17 August 2012 - 12:23 PM.


#117 devicus

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostAitchkay, on 17 August 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

The idea is that assigning skill to your pickup sPvP rank is wrong.  This gets even worse when people use this to somehow try to prove that someone else's posts are invalid.  It becomes a classic case of a mediocre player using aa arbitrary number to make himself look superior to other people, when in reality he's just as bad, if not worse.
Yes, I agree. What I was saying is that someone who has a high rank has pvped a lot and will have experienced more players and then will be more likely to have run into someone face meltingly good (ie not necessarily a top tier player but one who's noticeably better than them) because they've played a lot. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is that all clear now?

#118 Distortion24

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostAitchkay, on 17 August 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

The idea is that assigning skill to your pickup sPvP rank is wrong.  This gets even worse when people use this to somehow try to prove that someone else's posts are invalid.  It becomes a classic case of a mediocre player using aa arbitrary number to make himself look superior to other people, when in reality he's just as bad, if not worse.

^QFT
How does glory rank equate to skill... I could theoretically afk at a point every game and gain a significant amount of glory with the glory boosters.

#119 MSpurrier24

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:26 PM

View Postjt_brako, on 17 August 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

GS is used in zerg ffa game. You don't play with a great sword if you play seriously (especially vs real players).
So ...
this was like first BWE i do not use the GS anymore ahaha i use a sword pistol build now





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