73 replies to this topic

[Absolutionis]

EDIT: Note that the skills themselves don't have to be changed. A simply 'nerf' could be that the skills operate differently in designated Jumping Puzzle areas.

I extensively played Engineer in BWE1+2 and Mesmer in BWE3 (because of the character clear).
There are two skills in those professions that concern me with regards to jumping puzzles, and for two similar yet opposite reasons.

They can both be used to cheat, somewhat.

Firstly, we have the Engineer's Jump Shot.
http://wiki.guildwar.../wiki/Jump_Shot
Unlike many other teleport skills other classes have such as Blink, you can use Jump Shot to actually traverse across chasms that would otherwise require a jump. Long story short, it's a ground-targeted skill that allows you a lateral jump with 100% chance of success and no skill required. Not only that, but you can actually perform jumps with Jump Shot longer than even a Swiftness-infuced jump. Jump Shot has a range of 700. The recharge of 20sec is negligible when you can jump over two platforms and perfectly land the most difficult jumps. Some jumping puzzles (such as Gormm's Storm Gate) would deal you damage to slow you down or inflict conditions to slow you down; Jump Shot completely ignores this and allows you to land the jump regardless.
The only time I've seen Jump Shot fail is if the target platform is notably higher than where you begin the jump.

Secondly, we have the Mesmer's Portal.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portal
The portal can be placed anywhere you can stand. This includes those thin beams or branches you sometimes see in jumping puzzles. You can also traverse both ways across the portals you place. I found myself often getting to the 'difficult part' in some jumping puzzles, setting up a portal entre as a save point, then if I fail and survive, utilizing the portal to go back. Not only that, but I got rather good at jumping puzzles to the point that I would transport some party members to vistas and through jumping puzzles just for fun.
Sometimes, distance may make the portals fail, but it's only a matter of time before people get the optimum distance correct and start charging people for runs.

Now note that I love jumping puzzles and I'm posting this here because I only did those things to see if I could. It felt dirty and I wouldn't want other people doing them.

So I ask you all. Do you think this is fair?
Should these skills be nerfed so they don't perform as well in jumping puzzles?

As an aside, we really need to make a distinction between the puzzle-like jumping puzzles of vistas (that require logic and problem-solving) and the action-like jumping sequences such as Gormm's Lair (that require skillful and quick jumps with precision).

Edited by Absolutionis, 25 July 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[GinsterUnit]

Please don't take away my engineers amazing jump shot because of some stupid jumping puzzle balance concept

[NuclearDonut]

I played a rifle Engineer this weekend and while I agree with you that Jump Shot is an easier way to jump, I didn't find it very effective. I did about 5 or 6 long jumping puzzles and only had to use Jump Shot once. I found it way easier to simply jump to where I was going instead of waiting for a 20 second cooldown. One jump every 20 seconds isn't worth the precise jump. Also, while we may be able to traverse chasms, think about Elementalists and Thieves being able to blink across traps, something Engies cannot do. I didn't play Mesmer so I can't comment on Teleport.

[Syncline]

I have no plans to charge anyone for portals.

Blink doesn't work for changes in elevation at all, or even gaps, from what I found.

Edited by Syncline, 25 July 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Anela]

It's jumping puzzles for heaven's sake!  Let them keep their abilities.

[Ketill]

Absolutionis, on 25 July 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

So I ask you all. Do you think this is fair?
Should these skills be nerfed so they don't perform as well in jumping puzzles?

No they shouldn't. Also, the Thief and Elementalist also have abilities that could be used to benefit them in jumping puzzles. And who cares if it's fair? This is not PvP. You are not getting legendary gear from a jumping puzzle. It does not bother me one bit if some classes can complete a jumping puzzle a little faster than others.

[Syncline]

I think some classes should be nerfed because they have an advantage in DPS. Etc etc. I hate topics like this. T_T Let us support classes be mobile, I already trade off by getting less loot in events because mesmers are gimped for aoe damage.

[speediSpazz]

jumping puzzles are not that big of a deal to change skills, lol.

they also aren't that difficult to beat without those skills, i had no problem with them, and i absolutely sucked at jump maps on cs, lol.

[Jokerx7]

Ketill, on 25 July 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

No they shouldn't. Also, the Thief and Elementalist also have abilities that could be used to benefit them in jumping puzzles. And who cares if it's fair? This is not PvP. You are not getting legendary gear from a jumping puzzle. It does not bother me one bit if some classes can complete a jumping puzzle a little faster than others.

Just because you like PvP, and this doesn't affect PvP, it doesn't mean that it mustn't be treated.
It shouldn't be that hard to just disable them when you are on a jump puzzle zone. But well, it will make it obvious that you are in a jumping zone. And that will kinda break people who really want to be surprised, but it doesn't matter. x3
Vistas don't really matter, it will be OK in them. They are easy anyway. xD

We only saw a few Jumping Puzzles, and the easiest I hope. (Since they where in the beginner zones)

[Silica]

I personally don't believe certain classes being able to complete jumping puzzles easier warrants them being nerfed. The puzzles are all able to be completed without them, so just leave them be.

[Absolutionis]

They don't have to nerf the skill itself. That would justify people's dislike of jumping puzzles even more.

I'm simply suggesting the skill should be altered slightly in those areas. See teleport skills like Blink or Shadow Escape. If you try to 'cheat' yourself onto another platform, you'll just teleport to the edge of wherever you are.

Just make certain areas not portal/leap friendly.

[Vesuvias]

You rock. That never occurred to me for some reason. You just sealed the deal on my engineer choice as my main. This is one of those things I like to call "Ethical Exploits". I say keep it in, otherwise I likely won't do most jumping puzzles (there always that "one" jump that is stupid frustrating).

[Frakov]

This seems more like a minor convenience for those classes at most. Similar to how rogues in the original Diablo could disarm traps which are annoyances for other classes. Basically it's just playing the hand you're dealt effectively.

[Hanzo]

I'm not concerned about this at all. If I can't do a jumping puzzle because of my own incompetence I don't expect a mesmer to lay a portal for me to make it easier. And I don't mind if others do this either. Cheat or not, idc. GW2 is about doing what you want to do, if an engineer decides to use Jump Shot to make a jumping puzzle easier, it's not my business and it certainly doesn't make the game less fun for me. It's not an unfair advantage.

[drkn]

Quote

And who cares if it's fair?

Those who love jumping puzzles, i presume. Likewise, those who love PvP care about PvP; or is it too hard to grasp?


Just make those and other skills work like Blink in PvE, shouldn't be hard to code.



e:

Quote

This seems more like a minor convenience for those classes at most. Similar to how rogues in the original Diablo could disarm traps which are annoyances for other classes. Basically it's just playing the hand you're dealt effectively.

Sorry, but no. It's not a 'minor convenience' and those who actually went through all the currently available puzzles will agree that it's much, much more. I am not saying that the puzzles are the focal point of the whole game and everything should revolve around them, but i do see an unfair advantage here and it annoys me.

Edited by drkn, 25 July 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Syncline]

Kay, so nerf high-DPS classes in dynamic events. Clearly, their ability to get more loot than lower-DPS classes is an advantage.

[Matsy]

Elemenalist - Ride the lightning
Engineer - Jump shot
Mesmer - Thinking with portals!
Guardian - GS leap
Ranger - GS leap (to a degree...since you charge forward first then jump)
Thief - Shortbow teleport

Suppose all of these needed nerfed because of something as important as JP's .  I do like the JP, even f they are far too easy so far, but nerfing a classes abilities because they have a advantage in JP's where you gain at best a item you can get from a mob drop?

Making the change only in PvE, would effect everything else in PvE....not just JP's

Edited by Matsy, 25 July 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Syncline]

Or, yanno, learn to jump. If my blind ass can complete the sylvari spiral one (without portal entre), so can anyone here.

[Absolutionis]

Considering that one island vista in Lion's Arch that REQUIRES the NPC-given rocket-jump kit, I doubt they'll be nerfing leap skills such as Jump Short to not allow chasm-jumping anytime soon.

drkn, on 25 July 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Those who love jumping puzzles, i presume. Likewise, those who love PvP care about PvP; or is it too hard to grasp?


Just make those and other skills work like Blink in PvE, shouldn't be hard to code.



e:

Sorry, but no. It's not a 'minor convenience' and those who actually went through all the currently available puzzles will agree that it's much, much more. I am not saying that the puzzles are the focal point of the whole game and everything should revolve around them, but i do see an unfair advantage here and it annoys me.

I agree.

I love Engineers and Mesmers and don't want to see the skills nerfed.

I also love the jumping puzzles and don't want to have my accomplishments cheapened by other people getting runs/shortcuts.

A nice compromise would be the have the skills operate like the teleport-to-edge Teleport skills only in certain areas. Also forbid portals in certain areas.

[Frakov]

drkn, on 25 July 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Those who love jumping puzzles, i presume. Likewise, those who love PvP care about PvP; or is it too hard to grasp?


Just make those and other skills work like Blink in PvE, shouldn't be hard to code.



e:

Sorry, but no. It's not a 'minor convenience' and those who actually went through all the currently available puzzles will agree that it's much, much more. I am not saying that the puzzles are the focal point of the whole game and everything should revolve around them, but i do see an unfair advantage here and it annoys me.

Those who love the challenge of jumping puzzles will just not use the skills if they think it makes the puzzle too easy. Just like some people love mindlessly exploring the world. They won't get rewards as quickly or as often as people who rush through content, but they are enjoying what they like about the game.

[Sleepyx732]

Matsy, on 25 July 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Elemenalist - Ride the lightning
Engineer - Jump shot
Mesmer - Thinking with portals!
Guardian - GS leap
Ranger - GS leap (to a degree...since you charge forward first then jump)
Thief - Shortbow teleport

Suppose all of these needed nerfed because of something as important as JP's

Making the change only in PvE, would effect everything else in PvE....not just JP's

I would never use GS leaps and especially ride the lightning in a jumping puzzle... They aren't ground target

[Gangstrocity]

Pretty sure the thief cant use shadow step for jumping puzzles, and ele cant use ride the lightning. they just dont work on those puzzles. I don't think the skills should be removed, but let me as a thief use shadow step during jump puzzles, or make the engi not be able to use theirs either.

[Syncline]

I'm not sure why they'd need to be nerfed, since the content can be completed without them.

[Quenchster]

Some moves are also used in PvP to move around easier, so I wouldn't think they would change things for the sake of jumping puzzles. For example, in that one sPvP battleground with the clock tower, warriors can use their leap ability to jump through windows without needing to jump on the boxes. That same ability leap ability also happens to work in jumping puzzles too. I actually used that leap to make myself a few shortcuts. But it isn't a bad thing. Melee based players need ways to get onto other platforms fast so they can attack ranged players while doing the WvW jumping puzzles. Most leap abilities require the use of a melee or mid-ranged weapon.

Edited by Quenchster, 25 July 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[Matsy]

Sleepyx732, on 25 July 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

I would never use GS leaps and especially ride the lightning in a jumping puzzle... They aren't ground target

They are still useful in some situations and therfore deserve a nerf in the OP eyes.

Edited by Matsy, 25 July 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[kook]

Syncline, on 25 July 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I have no plans to charge anyone for portals.

Blink doesn't work for changes in elevation at all, or even gaps, from what I found.

Has Anet said anything about this? I was under the assumption that you couldn't blink across gaps until I used to to escape from a group of people in WvW. Running up to the gap I knew it wouldn't work due to previous attempts but it landed me just on the edge of the other side.

[Syncline]

I just don't get it. I am terrible, and I mean, terrible at jump puzzles. But I was able to complete one. So you want to nerf abilities that give no advantage, when just about anyone can complete jump puzzles?

Because I can guarantee that if I can get that sylvari one done, almost anyone can.

kook, on 25 July 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Has Anet said anything about this? I was under the assumption that you couldn't blink across gaps until I used to to escape from a group of people in WvW. Running up to the gap I knew it wouldn't work due to previous attempts but it landed me just on the edge of the other side.

Well, it didn't let me blink across anything in the sylvari puzzle. So it may be gap + elevation.

[Absolutionis]

Ride the Lightning and other enemy-targeted skills can be used, but they're unreliable. You may get an extended-range jump from these skills, but it's just as skill-intensive as pressing the Spacebar.

The problem with Jump Shot is that it's an incredibly accurate ground-targeted skill.

Gangstrocity, on 25 July 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Pretty sure the thief cant use shadow step for jumping puzzles, and ele cant use ride the lightning. they just dont work on those puzzles. I don't think the skills should be removed, but let me as a thief use shadow step during jump puzzles, or make the engi not be able to use theirs either.

You cannot. Teleport skills will just warp you to the edge of the platform you're currently standing on and stop there. You cannot cross into areas you otherwise wouldn't be able to walk.

Quenchster, on 25 July 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Some moves are also used in PvP to move around easier, so I wouldn't think they would change things for the sake of jumping puzzles. For example, in that one sPvP battleground with the clock tower, warriors can use their leap ability to jump through windows without needing to jump on the boxes. That same ability leap ability also happens to work in jumping puzzles too. I actually used that leap to make myself a few shortcuts. But it isn't a bad thing. Melee based players need ways to get onto other platforms fast so they can attack ranged players while doing the WvW jumping puzzles. Most leap abilities require the use of a melee or mid-ranged weapon.

You don't have to change the skill for the jumping puzzles. You can change the jumping puzzle to have the skills operate differently there. No portal-areas and such work fine.

Matsy, on 25 July 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

They are still useful in some situations and therfore deserve a nerf in the OP eyes.

Nope, read the thread.

Edited by Absolutionis, 25 July 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[Matsy]

Syncline, on 25 July 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Because I can guarantee that if I can get that sylvari one done, almost anyone can.

I bet you fell to your death a few times though! splat!

[Syncline]

Matsy, on 25 July 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I bet you fell to your death a few times though! splat!

Like 20-30 times, I sure gave resers a lot of XPs! XD

I'm not sure if a falling death counts toward breaking armors, though. No breaks and no repair cost, so it really is just time and practice.

The funniest part was someone commenting that they were getting a lot of XPs from people falling off, and then I fell out of the sky to be resed, too.

Edited by Syncline, 25 July 2012 - 09:00 PM.