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Does Combat Get Better?

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#1 actionjack

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:41 AM

I havn't got to the later levels during Beta (stay around lv 13 or so), so not sure about how things are at the further side.  But does the combat get more dynamtic later on?

(Since do feel the early level fights still feel too "static" and not up to its full potential)

#2 Alaroxr

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:50 AM

View Postactionjack, on 26 July 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

I havn't got to the later levels during Beta (stay around lv 13 or so), so not sure about how things are at the further side.  But does the combat get more dynamtic later on?

(Since do feel the early level fights still feel too "static" and not up to its full potential)

Yeah, it rapidly gets much more intense and challenging as you level up. I consider the first 15 levels to be a tutorial since it's tailored for people who know nothing about the game, or are even new to MMOs. As you get higher level the game expects you to be much more skilled, which allows for more complex and interesting fights.

Here's a video I made of a random champion cave troll in Gendarran fields. He hits harder and takes longer than an average mob, but the difficulty level and level of dynamics end up being around this range:

Spoiler

Edit: I got to level 32 in BWE3, and 37 on my character from BWE1 and BWE2.

Edited by Alaroxr, 26 July 2012 - 01:01 AM.


#3 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:50 AM

I know what you mean, I found the best fights were against single opponents who knocked back, or have a low arc of attack but highly dangerous damage because in those cases dodging is significant. Other fights, were pretty static, I agree.

Are you weapon switching a lot? It makes the combat a lot more "action-packed", but depending on the enemy you're fighting it could be still pretty "static."

EDIT: Highest level I got to was 17, just putting that out there, so some would say I haven't experienced that much combat yet.

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 26 July 2012 - 12:51 AM.


#4 actionjack

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:58 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 26 July 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Yeah, it rapidly gets much more intense and challenging as you level up. I consider the first 15 levels to be a tutorial since it's tailored for people who know nothing about the game, or are even new to MMOs. As you get higher level the game expects you to be much more skilled.

Spoiler

So in the video, who is casting all those AoE?  The Mob or the player?  And how is the mob behaving?

Might make another topic thread on this later, but since I never got to later point, so can't genericfy the whole experience too much.
But the combat that I would consider fun (or atleast more exciting) would be one that require more dodging and movement.  This means mob with stronger attack, but enough "hints" and time to dodge out of those attacks (by character animation or markings in the ground).  I know some early boss does it, as well as some early mobs that do charging and surounding attacks and such, but what to expect in later games?  thanks.

#5 Alaroxr

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 01:11 AM

View Postactionjack, on 26 July 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

So in the video, who is casting all those AoE?  The Mob or the player?  And how is the mob behaving?

Might make another topic thread on this later, but since I never got to later point, so can't genericfy the whole experience too much.
But the combat that I would consider fun (or atleast more exciting) would be one that require more dodging and movement.  This means mob with stronger attack, but enough "hints" and time to dodge out of those attacks (by character animation or markings in the ground).  I know some early boss does it, as well as some early mobs that do charging and surounding attacks and such, but what to expect in later games?  thanks.

In this fight, the Champion troll has two main mechanics. One, in melee range he hits you for massive damage. Secondly, he occasionally creates those red circle AoE you can see landing around me or near me, which at times did a lot to my health pool. The animation for him doing that is quick but can be noticed, and the AoE appears directly after that and has an animation of rocks falling from the ceiling. Normally I would miss his casting animation, but I would try to instantly react to the circle and the falling rocks. However, as you can see twice in the clip, I almost died from making mistakes (and you can see Zoffi almost die as well).

The other cave trolls (non-champion) don't hit too hard, but they also create a similar AoE as the Champion, meaning we have to take them down otherwise we might get swarmed by AoE and die.

You might notice in the middle of the floor is an environmental weapon (although not one you can pick up). It was an ice trap that damages and chills the Troll.

The other AoE would either be from my Symbol of Swiftness, Symbol of Wrath, or my Mesmer friend Zoffi's purple AoE. We had no allied NPCs.

--------------

At higher levels you see a lot more powerful attacks that hit hard, but can be dodged. It gets to the point though where you need more that just dodging, you need plenty of movement and you need to know when to take a hit, and when not to.

At lower levels you can fight multiple weaker enemies at a time and be fine, but at higher levels it gets more complicated. Instead, you can be swarmed by fast moving, quick hitting enemies that require you to constantly move and react, which I actually find to be much more difficult than the fight I showed above.

First the game makes everything simple, then they introduce hard hitting but easy to react to enemies, then they introduce "the swarm" effect. Take Ettins and bandits. Ettins hit hard, but are easy to avoid. Bandits hit lightly, but hit fast and there are many of them. At lower levels the Ettins would be more of a threat, but the higher you get the stronger ALL enemies hit, and so you feel threatened by almost every enemy.

Edited by Alaroxr, 26 July 2012 - 01:16 AM.


#6 AzylynneN

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 05:24 AM

I think they gimped the pve mobs between BWE2 and BWE3.  For some reason they don't seem to nearly hit as hard... I remember back in BWE1, like mobs would 2-3 shot me and I was down... so I REALLY needed to dodge.

These days I do a lot more side stepping and dodge when I know they are going to AOE or do a major attack.  Maybe I just got better?  I don't think so though.

#7 sergel02

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:53 AM

I had a similar problem. I did notice tho that I had a lot more fun on the personal story fights than the other ones. Dynamic quests were fun when it was a few people, otherwise it felt to chaotic and spammy. Just a thing of the massive crowds in low level zones. I remember taking on a Wasp Queen Champion in the Queensdale area. No one could make a dent in her though, all 7 of us. Eventually we just gave up and quit when we weren't getting anywhere lol.

#8 Sheepski

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:03 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 26 July 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Yeah, it rapidly gets much more intense and challenging as you level up. I consider the first 15 levels to be a tutorial since it's tailored for people who know nothing about the game, or are even new to MMOs. As you get higher level the game expects you to be much more skilled, which allows for more complex and interesting fights.

Here's a video I made of a random champion cave troll in Gendarran fields. He hits harder and takes longer than an average mob, but the difficulty level and level of dynamics end up being around this range:

Spoiler

Edit: I got to level 32 in BWE3, and 37 on my character from BWE1 and BWE2.

Omg now I wanna play Guardian even more.... thanks for messing up my choices lol :D

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!


#9 MikeFish

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

View PostAzylynneN, on 26 July 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

I think they gimped the pve mobs between BWE2 and BWE3.  For some reason they don't seem to nearly hit as hard... I remember back in BWE1, like mobs would 2-3 shot me and I was down... so I REALLY needed to dodge.

These days I do a lot more side stepping and dodge when I know they are going to AOE or do a major attack.  Maybe I just got better?  I don't think so though.

There was an interview with Jon Peters (somewhere) about that. Basically, they found that a high percentage of people were getting Rofl-stomped quite early on in the game. So they made the first 20 or so levels into a learning curve instead of a flat difficulty. This involved making the mobs in some of the starting areas laughably easy for good players and it meant that you don't actually encounter certain conditions until much later in the game. It's their attempt to have the game introduce the gameplay bit by bit and actually I think it works quite well. Even good players need a chance to get used to a new profession and unlock skills without fear of dying to the next mob they meet just because all they can do is auto-attack.

The long and short of it is, you will get the hard mobs again, just a bit further a long in the game.

#10 AsgarZigel

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 11:30 AM

Yeah, the first 20 levels are pretty tame in terms of combat. I would like some a bit more challenging stuff even early on, maybe in far off corners of the map...
In the dungeon though the jump in combat difficulty is quite something, even the "trash" mobs are nothing to sneeze at and you need to learn their mechanics to survive. In the first dungeon these mechanics aren't too hard to figure out (attack Mesmers in melee because they have a projectile shield, dodge the eles firestorm, look out for the ranger spike traps ect), but especially if multiple different enemies attack you at once it becomes quite hectic. (We had a random group that didn't work much together though, a real team has it easier I guess)

Even in the open world in Gendarran Fields, some of the pirate enemies could get rather challenging when fighting more than one. So yeah, I the fights in the beginning are a bit boring and they could ramp up the difficulty a bit sooner and more steadily, instead of such a jump once you go into the dungeon.

#11 God Of Fissures

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 01:05 PM

Combat is only bland and static if you PLAY THAT WAY.  If you are using mobility and strategy to your advantage in a fight, combat is fluid and dynamic.

Bad players stand around and spam skills.
Good players move around constantly, dodge at the proper time, and use their skills wisely.

If you are the latter, then combat is dynamic.  Since this thread is saying that combat is not dynamic, I am guessing you are not a good player.

Don't take it as criticism...just try to get better.

#12 AzylynneN

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostMikeFish, on 26 July 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

....................


Thanks for the confirmation.  It makes a lot of sense to tone things down otherwise ANet will have a LOT of discouraged players early on.  I remember in BWE1, I was thinking to myself... DAMN, this is NOT anywhere near WoW, or SWTOR, or other MMORPGs... this game is NOT forgiving at all!  heh.

#13 Tevesh

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:44 PM

I've played on pretty much the same toon (d/d ele) in pve throught all of the bwes and here what it looked like:

1. Bwe1: 'solo' mobs 5-shot me, elites 2-shot me, champions it's 1shot.
2. Bwe2: solo mobs take like 6 hits to kill me, 4 for elites, 3 for champions
3. Bwe3: 15, 6, 4

From my experience the mobs on average got three times more easy since the beginning of public tests. Solo mobs are pathetically easy now unless they are +8 lvls to yours or higher, in which case you do negligable damage.

#14 Tregarde

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 02:46 AM

As you level up and earn more skills, it does become more interesting since you can do more. You'll start to work out new strategies to utilize your new skills.

#15 K0tY

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:04 AM

And combat gets harder every few levels.

#16 mazut

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:02 AM

View Postactionjack, on 26 July 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

I havn't got to the later levels during Beta (stay around lv 13 or so), so not sure about how things are at the further side.  But does the combat get more dynamtic later on?

(Since do feel the early level fights still feel too "static" and not up to its full potential)

Nah, the combat will ge more static. You will have better items and you will be able to sit tehre and tank everything... /facepalm

PS: Your question leads to another. Q:"Will you like this game at all?" ... A: Doubtful





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