145 replies to this topic

[nicefff]

one thing would make them too OP, spectral agony and that was the only cool thing about them, other than them being all goldy yellow lol and i wouldn't play them otherwise lol

Edited by nicefff, 28 July 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[nick the man]

Little Bird, on 28 July 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

If Arenanet ever implemented this race it would mean they've jumped the shark.

Please continue, I have no idea what you mean by this statement.

nicefff, on 28 July 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

one thing would make them too OP, spectral agony and that was the only cool thing about them, other than them being all goldy yellow lol and i wouldn't play them otherwise lol

Um I addressed this earlier you could explain the absence of this power by saying only elder members can use it, I would primarily play them in order to learn about the mursaat.

[markaedw]

nick the man, on 28 July 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

uh ok well in the 'will the mursaat play a large part in gw2' thread you said you weren't that interested, i misstated your position and for that I am sorry.

The whole 'bad guy' thing I have gone into before, so if interested read above for a different perspective.

And although you say you don't want a repeat of the charr story the other stories are kind of regurgitated too, both the norn and asura are pushed from their homelands by other forces. The sylvari are simialar to the humans (like a younger stage if you will) in that they were brought into being by a divine force that (for now) guides them, much like the early history of the humans on tyria.

There are many other examples but if you look at all of these stories you see many simialarities, as well as differences. For instance although both the charr and mursaat were portrayed in villains in the first game, one (the charr) were disorganized barbaric creatures, under the orders of the titans, they were causing destruction and harm in order to take lands from humans.

In nearly opposing form the mursaat acted to strengthen humans by bringing order in the form of the mantle, crippling the charr war effort, and making sure that the door of komalie remained sealed. They were also, unlike the charr presented as organized cultured beings that acted with much thought behind their actions. Along with that they were dissimilar to the charr in that they acted as controllers of the mantle whilst the charr were pawns of the titans.

PS: Ironically although the charr are presented as roman inspired, the mursaat act like classical rome as they bring structure and order to the locations in their sphere of influence, also similar their seeming sophistication and the way in which their enemies (gw1 heroes) saw them, as tyrannical despots (just like how historically the barbarians viewed the romans) so in that regard it is a bit of a misconception to view the charr as more romanized than the mursaat.



hmm well your first 'points' were in regard to their morality quite an about face as you previously focused on how 'evil' they were.

well in regards to your new 'argument' I'm not sure what you mean. First of all they had no real choice in the use of humans FYI it was that or destruction, secondly the PC was not in any danger that they put themselves in, the chosen had elected to go their knowing they would never return (though they didn't know they would die, many would likely sacrifice themselves to save their people) and we don't actually know how many of them died or remain, only one confirmed to live, but there is still saul's city to think about. Oh ya and Lazarus did have a plan 'B' it was to break into pieces.

You missed my point, so here it is. How you feel about the morality of the Mursaat is pointless, we killed them all. They ticked off the wrong hero, they ended up on the wrong side of the issue, they chose the wrong way to survive, they are all but extict, so unless they can reproduce by binary fission they are a doomed race. If their goal was to  proctect themselves from what ever was on the other side of the Door of Komali, they falied. Because we, as the hero decided that killing "the chosen" was an unaccebale solution. We deicided that what ever was on the other side of the door was a lesser evil than the Mursaat, and if opening the door meant the end of sacrificng the chosen, then so be it. We opened the door, the titans came out and destroyed the Mursaat. We then destroyed the titans and for good measure destroyed the Foundry of Failed Creations, where the titans came from. And while we were at it we finished off any that the titans missed.

So if they wanted to survive they should have stayed on our good side and found a better way of keeping the door closed.

"Jumping the Shark" referres to when a brand begins a decline in quality to a point beyond recovery. It was coined from a TV show called "Happy Days," which aired January 15, 1974, to September 24, 1984, in which a the main character called "Fonzie" preforms a watersking daredevil stunt where he jumps over a shark tank. It generally accepted that when a brand "jumps the shark" they are doomed and know it so they are trying one last, desperate (and futile) grab for survival.

Edited by markaedw, 28 July 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[The Mountain]

Absolutionis, on 27 July 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

No they're not. They're allied with the Humans in GW2.

The Mursaat formed the White Mantle, and the White Mantle are a Mursaat-worshipping cult that have been mentioned to explicitly be an enemy in GW2's human personal story.

In Guild Wars 1, Charr are antagonists. They were far worse than Mursaats.

I could make up hundreds of retcons why Mursaat could ally with the 5 races and be a playable race.

[markaedw]

Let me assure you, if my GW character found out she missed few Mursaat, she would return from the dead to finish the job. Especially if they gathered together in one spot to help desttroy the elder dragons, just makes it easier. So they better stay in hiding.

Edited by markaedw, 28 July 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[nick the man]

markaedw, on 28 July 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

You missed my point, so here it is. How you feel about the morality of the Mursaat is pointless, we killed them all. They ticked off the wrong hero, they ended up on the wrong side of the issue, they chose the wrong way to survive, they are all but extict, so unless they can reproduce by binary fission they are a doomed race. If their goal was to  proctect themselves from what ever was on the other side of the Door of Komali, they falied. Because we, as the hero decided that killing "the chosen" was an unaccebale solution. We deicided that what ever was on the other side of the door was a lesser evil than the Mursaat, and if opening the door meant the end of sacrificng the chosen, then so be it. We opened the door, the titans came out and destroyed the Mursaat. We then destroyed the titans and for good measure destroyed the Foundry of Failed Creations, where the titans came from. And while we were at it we finished off any that the titans missed.

So if they wanted to survive they should have stayed on our good side and found a better way of keeping the door closed.

"Jumping the Shark" referres to when a brand begins a decline in quality to a point beyond recovery. It was coined from a TV show called "Happy Days," which aired January 15, 1974, to September 24, 1984, in which a the main character called "Fonzie" preforms a watersking daredevil stunt where he jumps over a shark tank. It generally accepted that when a brand "jumps the shark" they are doomed and know it so they are trying one last, desperate (and futile) grab for survival.

I admit I skipped a bit of your post, but as I have said before we don't actually know how many of them there are, we have not accounted for saul's city and we have yet to see if there are more of them, until such a time as we have found their origins we can not say that they are doomed, dying, et. al.

markaedw, on 28 July 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Let me assure you, if my GW character found out she missed few Mursaat, she would return from the dead to finish the job. Especially if they gathered together in one spot to help desttroy the elder dragons, just makes it easier. So they better stay in hiding.

Um they may ally with us that may be an unwise decision.

[Shriketalon]

nick the man, on 28 July 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

On to your next point, I disagree that the same could be used to bring in any new races In fact I would say that it could only be used for a few, namely free races that are capable of adding more to their numbers, as the mursaat are mysterious we know nothing of their origins, on the other hands things such as wardens, margonites, etc. are no longer being created, and for that reason are unlikely as they, like the dwarves, have a finite supply. Similarly creatures with only semi-sentience such as the krait, skritt, oni (they are likely insane), etc. can't really become playable as they lack the intelligence to carry out missions, complex plots, etc. Another group you have listed can best be defined as eternal servants, these creatures in organizations like shadow army, branded, etc. are incapable of breaking free from their masters and as such would never be playable as they are forever trapped.The only creatures you listed with any chance of being playable are really undead (in the form of liches most likely) and we can already play as a lich if you are a necromancer, as you can see although at first glance it would seem that almost anything could be playable in reality, due to the mursaat's unique situation they are really the only creatures that could logically become playable lore wise.

Consider all the races you just dismissed.  In each and every case, you bring up legitimate concerns regarding their viability as a playable race.  Despite that, however, I could easy say "well, that point could just be retconned in a way that allows them to be playable".  Skritt could have some sort of super skritt that's normal intelligence.  Krait could overcome their slavish impulses.  Some oni might not be insane.  A few new margonites might be created free of corruption.  Wardens could start sprouting in a new way, from other plant source, so they take on a more fairy or sylvan........bad example.  Each time, one of those legitimate concerns could be handwaved away because they could be made playable via retconning.

But doing so would undermine the entire point of that race.  Krait are supposed to be slaving scumbags.  Oni are supposed to be insane.  Margonites are supposed to be filled with unholy zeal.  Skritt are supposed to be stupid alone but uncannily intelligent in packs.  That's what makes them who they are, and compromising that core nature just to make a new playable race would only diminish the awesomeness that makes people wonder what it would be like to play one.

So, too, the mursaat.  If they are made playable, they have to be understandable and relatable so that someone can get in their character's frame of reference.  They have to have a society laid out and their secrets exposed so that players understand their character's place in the world.  They have to be equal in power to other races, have to have all the trappings of characters, a city, a bunch of NPCs, and hooks into the diplomacy with other races that are expected of each playable race.  None of that has anything to do with what makes the mursaat interesting antagonists: their mysteriousness, their insidious bargaining, their power beyond mortal ken, and their otherworldlyness.  The route to making them playable would have to destroy those same concepts that make them cool and likely draw you into wondering what it would be like to play one.

Sometimes, if you like something, you have to set it free (Aww, yah, sappy Halmark ending! ).  Sacrificing what makes the group interesting to make them playable doesn't work, since the process would only destroy them.  Some things have to remain set apart and isolated in order to remain unnatural and mysterious.

[Absolutionis]

The Mountain, on 28 July 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

In Guild Wars 1, Charr are antagonists. They were far worse than Mursaats.

I could make up hundreds of retcons why Mursaat could ally with the 5 races and be a playable race.

The Charr were antagonists, but we were later told why. They followed the Flame Legion which worshipped the Titans.
You killed the Titans in GW1:Prophecies. We're told that between Prophecies and EotN, the other Charr legions realized that the Flame Legion was insane. We're told that before GW2, the Charr started outright ostracizing elementalists because of what the Flame Legion did. In GW2, we're told the Charr and Humans are allied.

On the other hand, we killed the Mursaat in GW1: Prophecies. We went on an extermination campaign against Mursaat in GW:WiK killing almost all but one. There is no indication to a remaining Mursaat sympathetic to humans. Not only that, but the Mursaat exterminated tons of Charr. Humans AND Charr, both now allies, have reason to hate the Mursaat.
Here we are in Guild Wars 2 when we're told the White Mantle and Mursaat are again enemies. Note that the game itself tells us this.

If the Mursaat are revealed to be enemies in GW2 by name and organization, it's safe to assume they will NOT be a playable race.

No excuses.

[nick the man]

Shriketalon, on 29 July 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Consider all the races you just dismissed.  In each and every case, you bring up legitimate concerns regarding their viability as a playable race.  Despite that, however, I could easy say "well, that point could just be retconned in a way that allows them to be playable".  Skritt could have some sort of super skritt that's normal intelligence.  Krait could overcome their slavish impulses.  Some oni might not be insane.  A few new margonites might be created free of corruption.  Wardens could start sprouting in a new way, from other plant source, so they take on a more fairy or sylvan........bad example.  Each time, one of those legitimate concerns could be handwaved away because they could be made playable via retconning.

But doing so would undermine the entire point of that race.  Krait are supposed to be slaving scumbags.  Oni are supposed to be insane.  Margonites are supposed to be filled with unholy zeal.  Skritt are supposed to be stupid alone but uncannily intelligent in packs.  That's what makes them who they are, and compromising that core nature just to make a new playable race would only diminish the awesomeness that makes people wonder what it would be like to play one.

So, too, the mursaat.  If they are made playable, they have to be understandable and relatable so that someone can get in their character's frame of reference.  They have to have a society laid out and their secrets exposed so that players understand their character's place in the world.  They have to be equal in power to other races, have to have all the trappings of characters, a city, a bunch of NPCs, and hooks into the diplomacy with other races that are expected of each playable race.  None of that has anything to do with what makes the mursaat interesting antagonists: their mysteriousness, their insidious bargaining, their power beyond mortal ken, and their otherworldlyness.  The route to making them playable would have to destroy those same concepts that make them cool and likely draw you into wondering what it would be like to play one.

Sometimes, if you like something, you have to set it free (Aww, yah, sappy Halmark ending! ).  Sacrificing what makes the group interesting to make them playable doesn't work, since the process would only destroy them.  Some things have to remain set apart and isolated in order to remain unnatural and mysterious.

the differance being that in your examples an exemption is made that modifies existing lore, in mine new lore is added which doesn't conflict at all.

Oh and regarding their seeming place of higher power, you forget that the races we have already display amazing abilities, the sylvari are completely INCORRUPTIBLE by the elder dragons, that is amazing, and invaluable power, the Asura are all GENIUSES that can create technology to alter reality as well as huge weapons of war. If you look at it most of the races have a seemingly OP abiliy(ies) that should make them beyond the level of we the humans, all I can think of that the humans have going for them is numbers lol, to say that the mursaat are at a ridiculously superior state is a bit silly as they have already been severely de-mystified and many have been defeated.  

Add On: Forgot to say one of the main selling points of the sylvari is that they are very mysterious, if you think about it we know little about their origins (other than them just being found), nothing on their purpose, why they were created at the time they were( elder dragons wakening period) , why they are the only we have found, etc. much of their mysticism is why they are intriguing to play, the characters know only what they need, its not too much of a stretch to say that the mursaat experience could be similar.

Absolutionis, on 29 July 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

The Charr were antagonists, but we were later told why. They followed the Flame Legion which worshipped the Titans.
You killed the Titans in GW1:Prophecies. We're told that between Prophecies and EotN, the other Charr legions realized that the Flame Legion was insane. We're told that before GW2, the Charr started outright ostracizing elementalists because of what the Flame Legion did. In GW2, we're told the Charr and Humans are allied.

On the other hand, we killed the Mursaat in GW1: Prophecies. We went on an extermination campaign against Mursaat in GW:WiK killing almost all but one. There is no indication to a remaining Mursaat sympathetic to humans. Not only that, but the Mursaat exterminated tons of Charr. Humans AND Charr, both now allies, have reason to hate the Mursaat.
Here we are in Guild Wars 2 when we're told the White Mantle and Mursaat are again enemies. Note that the game itself tells us this.

If the Mursaat are revealed to be enemies in GW2 by name and organization, it's safe to assume they will NOT be a playable race.

No excuses.

You seem to act as if gw1 was a few years before gw2, just as the average human knows nothing of the mursaat the same is true to a greater degree with the charr, no charr laid eyes on a mursaat and lived, the only reason that they would know of them is if a human told them (we have no indication of this) as such I think that the charr would have more reason to hate the humans than the mursaat. Also you must count time into this equation, since very few (if any at all) charr know of the mursaat and none (we know this at least) remember them then I have certainty that they would gladly accept them as an ally.

Furthermore,
It's unlikely that of the mursaat we have met that they hold sympathy to humans (only Lazarus remains) but there is evidence to suggest that there are additional mursaat in other cities, civilizations etc. (remember a small reference can quickly become a major lore addition, like the elder dragons' names). Oh and furthermore, if there are additional mursaat (a likelyhood) they would likely not be all that angry at humans as the humans did end up  wiping out the titans, thus saving the mursaat the effort and allowing them to melt back into the darkness and become unseen.

Edited by nick the man, 29 July 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[Anex Prime]

This is a ridiculous idea. The Mursaat were a race of spell casters, if they were to be even placed in the game as a playable race with a no class restriction; the lore would need to be changed. I cannot see this happening at all.

[nick the man]

Anex Prime, on 29 July 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

This is a ridiculous idea. The Mursaat were a race of spell casters, if they were to be even placed in the game as a playable race with a no class restriction; the lore would need to be changed. I cannot see this happening at all.

how would the lore have to be changed if the ones we saw were only spellcasters, and others that we have yet to encounter are in other professions. I never thought that the great destroyer was just some guys lieutenant, I also thought that the charr would be enemies of the humans for thousands of years more, the future is always shifting.

[Shriketalon]

nick the man, on 29 July 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

the differance being that in your examples an exemption is made that modifies existing lore, in mine new lore is added which doesn't conflict at all.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.  It's the same.  Creating a subset of diplomatic krait, non-insane oni, or repentant margonites would be adding to the lore as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't compromise the original intent of the race.

As to the power of different races, that's part of their intent.  Each race is the best at something, but no race is above the others.  Asura are the most magically advanced thanks to all their etheric mastery, but they are culturally rather primitive and diplomatically stunted.  Sylvari are the most philosophically advanced thanks to their unique outlook and open mindedness, but they are extremely new to the world and thus rather naive.  Humans are the most culturally advanced due to their massive history and many different ethnicities, but they have been getting the short end of the stick of late.  Charr are the most militarily advanced, but their hatred of magic leaves them reliant on the mundane.  Norn are the most athletically advanced (or a better term for being insanely good survivalists), but their grasp of technology and magic is nothing notable.  Exceptions do apply in each case, of course (some norn devote themselves fully to engineering, some charr are mages, some sylvari are jerks, etc), but each race has its own Cool Thing.

Absolutely none of that is the same as supernatural beings beyond mortal ken who can only be seen by those with True Sight, wield horrific powers only blocked by the essence of unnatural eidolons, and have fought and won wars since before the gods even appeared in Tyria and even predate magic itself.  That's a few tiers above "really good at making shiny things" on the Grand Scale of Powers, and puts the Mursaat squarely in Not Going To Happen territory.

[nick the man]

Shriketalon, on 29 July 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.  It's the same.  Creating a subset of diplomatic krait, non-insane oni, or repentant margonites would be adding to the lore as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't compromise the original intent of the race.

As to the power of different races, that's part of their intent.  Each race is the best at something, but no race is above the others.  Asura are the most magically advanced thanks to all their etheric mastery, but they are culturally rather primitive and diplomatically stunted.  Sylvari are the most philosophically advanced thanks to their unique outlook and open mindedness, but they are extremely new to the world and thus rather naive.  Humans are the most culturally advanced due to their massive history and many different ethnicities, but they have been getting the short end of the stick of late.  Charr are the most militarily advanced, but their hatred of magic leaves them reliant on the mundane.  Norn are the most athletically advanced (or a better term for being insanely good survivalists), but their grasp of technology and magic is nothing notable.  Exceptions do apply in each case, of course (some norn devote themselves fully to engineering, some charr are mages, some sylvari are jerks, etc), but each race has its own Cool Thing.

Absolutely none of that is the same as supernatural beings beyond mortal ken who can only be seen by those with True Sight, wield horrific powers only blocked by the essence of unnatural eidolons, and have fought and won wars since before the gods even appeared in Tyria and even predate magic itself.  That's a few tiers above "really good at making shiny things" on the Grand Scale of Powers, and puts the Mursaat squarely in Not Going To Happen territory.

Your examples already contradict lore, to have a non-insane oni goes against the lore stating that ALL are insane (plus spawned by the mists so not really eligible for PC), the margonites have been shown in lore to be against their masters (sometime), the problem with them is that no more can be created as it is stated that they NEED abadon for that. your krait example is flawed as ALL are stated as being only semi-sentient, meaning not capable of deep thought, they will come to being playable when the skritt do (which is if they are ret-conned which Anet doesn't like doing). The intent can be changed, just as the intent of the charr went from looking for 'gods', and wipe out humans to 'we need no gods' and we will fight with humans, (unless you mean dev intent, which changes quite a bit actually depending on what is needed, just as they intended to get utopia and now we have gw2).

In answer to the whole all are best at something I think the same applies to the mursaat in that they are in terms of knowledge and magic, very well off, but in terms of diplomatic relations they have none, they also have no trade (as they are unknown to most people) with others, in military strength we do not know, and physically (strength wise) they are also a little iffy, from the perspective of the other races they might appear 'to be unbeatable Juggernauts', but as third party observers we know that they can be seen (perhaps the effect can be replicated with technology), and their magic can be resisted (perhaps armor can be created to mitigate this effect). Once they are looked at from the eyes of an enlightened, clear headed observer you realize that they aren't so far from the other races, the only thing that REALLY separates them is their long presence here giving them great intel.

PS: there has always been magic on Tyria the gods just added to the reservoir.

Edited by nick the man, 29 July 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Jetjordan]

nick the man, on 29 July 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

PS: there has always been magic on Tyria the gods just added to the reservoir.

didn't Abaddon give magic to the races of tyria, causing the gods to go to war?  Pretty sure this started most of the wars in Tyria too.

[nick the man]

Jetjordan, on 29 July 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

didn't Abaddon give magic to the races of tyria, causing the gods to go to war?  Pretty sure this started most of the wars in Tyria too.

actually they gave them more magic, it caused imbalances as the humans could control all four aspects of it at once, after the blood stone was created only one aspect can be controlled at a time. The races that already had magic definitely included mursaat, jotun and i think seer, the races with it were all sentient (pretty sure only sentients could have magic) and the gods went to war after the bloodstone was created, and the gift of abbadon was locked up.

[blackthornarrow]

nick the man, on 28 July 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Ya I thought about that, and I think that since ascension is a human god thing a more appropriate vehicle (especially since devs said they disliked it) would be an asuran goggle type thing that allows you to see the mursaat more clearly, I also stipulated that as a younger/weaker mursaat that the playable character may not be capable of holding out their powers which would likely mitigate the 'god mode' feel, you could also say that since the fighters at the door of komalie were likely more powerful than an average mursaat (might explain why most don't reveal themselves if they aren't super strong) they might not fear the average tyrian but the average mursaat might, just some ideas.

so ya asura tech FTW



well i could see them as being more of a younger/weaker member of the species (the Playable character at least) which might be why they are simialar in power to a human/asura/etc. think of it as a young elf like in traditional high fantasy (legolas) being on the same level as eragorn(pretty much a normal human), yet other members of his race (say galadrial, Elrond) have imense power, thats how i see it at least.



For what reasons do you dislike my idea and what is yours?

its not that i dislike the idea but i dont think it would fit in the lore them being enemies and your character being hero's.

[Red J]

blackthornarrow, on 29 July 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

its not that i dislike the idea but i dont think it would fit in the lore them being enemies and your character being hero's.

*cough*...Charr...*cough*

[Anex Prime]

nick the man, on 29 July 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

how would the lore have to be changed if the ones we saw were only spellcasters, and others that we have yet to encounter are in other professions. I never thought that the great destroyer was just some guys lieutenant, I also thought that the charr would be enemies of the humans for thousands of years more, the future is always shifting.

The Mursaat need no physical professions. The Jade make up for their lack of physical ability. The need for a physical Mursaat is simply unnecessary.

[nick the man]

Red J, on 29 July 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

*cough*...Charr...*cough*

I was about to say, lol, thx.

Anex Prime, on 29 July 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

The Mursaat need no physical professions. The Jade make up for their lack of physical ability. The need for a physical Mursaat is simply unnecessary.

Thats only from what we have seen, it could be that only the elder mursaat have the power to hold out their creations indefinitely while younger members can only keep the jade under control for a while, another possible outcome could be that the younger mursaat may be stronger than the members of their race who happen to be older, enabling them to have the strength to pickup weapons etc. Although we have only seen spellcasters its not to much of a stretch to say that there are other members who are into melee, and are kept out of prophecies as they are not as much of a threat.

[Miteshu]

Absolutionis, on 29 July 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

The Charr were antagonists, but we were later told why. They followed the Flame Legion which worshipped the Titans.
You killed the Titans in GW1:Prophecies. We're told that between Prophecies and EotN, the other Charr legions realized that the Flame Legion was insane. We're told that before GW2, the Charr started outright ostracizing elementalists because of what the Flame Legion did. In GW2, we're told the Charr and Humans are allied.

On the other hand, we killed the Mursaat in GW1: Prophecies. We went on an extermination campaign against Mursaat in GW:WiK killing almost all but one. There is no indication to a remaining Mursaat sympathetic to humans. Not only that, but the Mursaat exterminated tons of Charr. Humans AND Charr, both now allies, have reason to hate the Mursaat.
Here we are in Guild Wars 2 when we're told the White Mantle and Mursaat are again enemies. Note that the game itself tells us this.

If the Mursaat are revealed to be enemies in GW2 by name and organization, it's safe to assume they will NOT be a playable race.

No excuses.

I don't really care if Mursaat is a playable race, but using "Mursaat as an antagonist" is a piss poor reason.

Humans and Charr were still enemies even after the Flame Legion were overthrown. Remember the Iron Legion sieging Ebonhawke in GoA? Yeah, that screams Charr and Humans are actually allies.

On the other hand, we killed Charr in GW1: Prophecies. We witness Charr invading Ascalon, Orr, and Kryta killing almost all but one kingdom. There is a few indication to a remaining Charr sympathetic to humans such as Human heads on a spike in the Charr intro. It just so happened that the Claw of Khan-ur just changed everything. Here we are, Humans AND Charr are both allies and it is not because they hate the Mursaat, it is because of the Dragon threat. What is there to say that Mursaat isn't threatened by dragons.

Edited by Miteshu, 29 July 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[nick the man]

Hmm So I was wondering what things you guys could add to this idea, I mean perhaps someone has some cool ideas to add.

[Absolutionis]

Miteshu, on 29 July 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

I don't really care if Mursaat is a playable race, but using "Mursaat as an antagonist" is a piss poor reason.

Humans and Charr were still enemies even after the Flame Legion were overthrown. Remember the Iron Legion sieging Ebonhawke in GoA? Yeah, that screams Charr and Humans are actually allies.

On the other hand, we killed Charr in GW1: Prophecies. We witness Charr invading Ascalon, Orr, and Kryta killing almost all but one kingdom. There is a few indication to a remaining Charr sympathetic to humans such as Human heads on a spike in the Charr intro. It just so happened that the Claw of Khan-ur just changed everything. Here we are, Humans AND Charr are both allies and it is not because they hate the Mursaat, it is because of the Dragon threat. What is there to say that Mursaat isn't threatened by dragons.

You can't just ague against the weak point and ignore the biggest point.

Guild Wars 2 Human "Never Knew My Parents" Personal Story says Mursaat are the enemy of humanity. Simple as that.

[nick the man]

Absolutionis, on 29 July 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

You can't just ague against the weak point and ignore the biggest point.

Guild Wars 2 Human "Never Knew My Parents" Personal Story says Mursaat are the enemy of humanity. Simple as that.

Where does it say that? I fought the mantle, all it says is that the mursaat were the gods of the mantle and that the mantle were trying to bring down the kingdom, though that says nothing about the mursaat, we don't know if they have even encountered one after the events of prophecies (its unlikely, as the mursaat would have no longer needed to interact with humans). You can try to force others to see things as simply as you imply they are, but when you make unsubstantiated claims you should expect opposition.

PS: I played the option where I fought the mantle and I never heard that the mursaat were the enemies of humans.

Oh and you didn't in any way argue against my argument if you didn't see it here it is:

ME, on 29 July 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

You seem to act as if gw1 was a few years before gw2, just as the average human knows nothing of the mursaat the same is true to a greater degree with the charr, no charr laid eyes on a mursaat and lived, the only reason that they would know of them is if a human told them (we have no indication of this) as such I think that the charr would have more reason to hate the humans than the mursaat. Also you must count time into this equation, since very few (if any at all) charr know of the mursaat and none (we know this at least) remember them then I have certainty that they would gladly accept them as an ally.

Furthermore,
It's unlikely that of the mursaat we have met that they hold sympathy to humans (only Lazarus remains) but there is evidence to suggest that there are additional mursaat in other cities, civilizations etc. (remember a small reference can quickly become a major lore addition, like the elder dragons' names). Oh and furthermore, if there are additional mursaat (a likelyhood) they would likely not be all that angry at humans as the humans did end up wiping out the titans, thus saving the mursaat the effort and allowing them to melt back into the darkness and become unseen.

Edited by nick the man, 29 July 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[Slashiroth]

The Tengu are already confirmed in the next expansion. So don't get your hopes up.

[JWZ]

Slashiroth, on 29 July 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

The Tengu are already confirmed in the next expansion. So don't get your hopes up.

Source?

[Absolutionis]

Slashiroth, on 29 July 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

The Tengu are already confirmed in the next expansion. So don't get your hopes up.

This seems very believable, but do you have a source on this? Not doubting you, I just want reaffirmation on a race that actually makes sense.

[nick the man]

Absolutionis, on 29 July 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

This seems very believable, but do you have a source on this? Not doubting you, I just want reaffirmation on a race that actually makes sense.

Well he/she is incorrect. I know he is just stating rumor, I would know if there was a conformation, I would have heard of it and it would be on the arena net website. And I dispute your assertion that it 'makes sense', you fail to note that there is no in lore reason for them to be playable, we don't even know who the next villain will be, just saying.

PS: If the next villain is Palawa Joko You guys have to call me the clairvoyant from now on.

[Absolutionis]

Regarding Mursaat:

nick the man, on 27 July 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Ok here is my idea for a new playable race-mursaat (youngling)

The lore could be based on them helping the other races fight an elder dragon perhaps it is in their homelands. The player could adopt the form of a floating 7 foot tall ethereal being with fantastic powers.

Regarding Tengu:

nick the man, on 29 July 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

And I dispute your assertion that it 'makes sense', you fail to note that there is no in lore reason for them to be playable, we don't even know who the next villain will be, just saying.

You're adorable.
Don't ever change.

[nick the man]

Absolutionis, on 29 July 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Regarding Mursaat:


Regarding Tengu:


You're adorable.
Don't ever change.

The difference being of course that we know nothing about mursaat city location (it could be conveniently placed anywhere), on the other hand the Tengu are all trapped in one massive city, that is under attack by primordious (we don't know if he will be the next villain, if they are to become playable it would be when we fought him) although my out of context quote could be taken to mean that I am just making something hurriedly to grasp for a reason(to use mursaat), the reality is that there is a great degree of flexibility that the devs could utilize(with them), on the other hand the tengu are now in one singular location in all of tyria and as such are grounded in lore that can't be altered, they must logically only deal with threats that impact them, many of which we know of.

In Referendum (TLDR): The tengu need to be used in a context with more absolutes as more is known about them, their threats, etc. than the mursaat who are still quite flexible (from a lore and dev POV) and can be discussed more in the abstract.

Edited by nick the man, 29 July 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Nayukhuut]

nick the man, on 29 July 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

The difference being of course that we know nothing about mursaat city location (it could be conveniently placed anywhere), on the other hand the Tengu are all trapped in one massive city, that is under attack by primordious (we don't know if he will be the next villain, if they are to become playable it would be when we fought him) although my out of context quote could be taken to mean that I am just making something hurriedly to grasp for a reason(to use mursaat), the reality is that there is a great degree of flexibility that the devs could utilize(with them), on the other hand the tengu are now in one singular location in all of tyria and as such are grounded in lore that can't be altered, they must logically only deal with threats that impact them, many of which we know of.

In Referendum (TLDR): The tengu need to be used in a context with more absolutes as more is known about them, their threats, etc. than the mursaat who are still quite flexible (from a lore and dev POV) and can be discussed more in the abstract.

Sigh, I've been quietly reading this threat snickering to myself and not wanting to get involved because you have a tendancy to take valid points and use the same circular arguments over and over to refute them. You accuse others of changing lore to fit their vision, when you are equally as guilty of that, if not more so. Anyway, this isn't about that, and I do not wish to debate that point any further.

This is about the Tengu, who you say are improbable as a race because they're are all stuffed in one central location and subject to attack. You keep mentioning this, and it keeps annoying me. They ARE in one city, true, but there are trading posts outside that city. Also, even if the city were wiped out they breed normally so there would aways be the option of little Tengu. Honestly, they're in a better situation that the Sylvari, who are already a playable race. The Sylvari have one city that is confirmed, and they ALL are born there and cannot make little Sylvari on their own. So, for the sake oh whatever, I don't care what, can you PLEASE stop using the "Tengu are vulnerable because they're all stuffed in one central location" branch.

I have more annoyances with this topic, but I do not feel like debating them so I will abate here.

*steps off soapbox*

Edited by Nayukhuut, 30 July 2012 - 12:26 AM.