21 replies to this topic

[MrMac222]

Hey you all

I was watching some videos this days and found a vid of a bleeding ele:


In one part he was 1on1 against another ele and there I saw he is able to get 15 stacks bleeding + burning on her.
And now my problem:

I thought the necro should have been the class which is specialised to conditions, especially bleeding, but the necro is not even able to get as many stacks on the foe than the ele, the most i saw were maybe 9-10 and ofc no burning but poison.
So the condtition ele is much stronger than the necro in my eyes and that couldnt be.
The necro was mentioned to be the class which is best in giving conditions taking conditions ...
but now the ele is much better in it?
Why should anyone take a necro with them?

I am a bit dissapointed

[Yuuki]

while professions like elementalist has been balanced there some professions that left behind and get a balaned till release.
It will all come to an good end.  

ANet hadnt time to make necros good for last bwe but is aware of QQ and they handle it.
Necro was awesome in BWE1&2 and it will be awesome again, I swear

[Darkheron]

Well, first of all there should be no profession that is " specialised to conditions".  It should merely be one option for speccing a profession. Which is kind of the problem.  The best way to spec a necro in last BWE was for conditions, with specific builds.  Outside of those there weren't many options.  And condition gameplay could be done better in general with Elementaliststs and Engineers.

The only real thing Necros have going for them as of the last BWE was boon/condition corruption, Deathly Swarm, and Epidemic Very good skills that gave the necro an important niche.  All centered around condition gameplay which was sub-par on Necro compared to several other classes.

Second, as Yukki said, Necro should be getting some "love" before release, so who knows.  Maybe they get buffed like Guardian and Engineer did, though I kind of doubt it.  The current implementation of DS is going to be very hard to balance, and the entire profession is going to suffer because of it IMO.

EDIT: Hmm, after reading my own post I realized it sounded like I am dumping on the Necro, but really condition gameplay is really solid on the class.  The only problem with it compared to the other classes IMO is DS which if you have to used it,  will result in most of your conditions being gone by the time you come out meaning you need to reapply.  So entering DS is technically a survival boost for both players.

Edited by Darkheron, 28 July 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Egoist]

Using staff mark, blood is power and scepter/dagger i could get 18 bleeds on a target in about 8 seconds, without bip i could keep someone at around 10-12 bleed stacks forever.

The thing to remember is that if that had been a team fight or a 1v1 with a necro those 15 bleeds and the burning stack would have been back on the elementalist before they got up to any real damage. I fought a few condition ele an engi builds in the last bwe and necros simply out play them, deathly swarm is an extremely powerful weapon skill and the elementalist cannot soak condition damage as well as a necro, neither can the engineer, the one viable necro condition biuld creates a condition metagame which works heavily in the necro's favour.

Every 18 seconds you get all your stacks back, every 25 seconds consume conditions heals for more the better the elementalist is playing, plague signet brings any conditions he stacks on you friends over to you and on the off chance its a big team fight every 15 seconds (probably every 18 on the back of swarm) epidemic makes his teams life hell because your 10 bleeds and his 15 bleeds makes everyone on his team have 25 stacks.

Condition ele's and engi's can certainly stack but a well played necro should win the meta hands down. Remember as well if the ele is removing conditions he's on the defensive and not stacking them so you have already forced him on the back foot and made an opening for your burst to take advantage of. Of course if you have a condition stacker on your team as well thats another interesting situation.

Edited by Egoist, 28 July 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Zendharma]

Yeah, in BWE3, I noticed how much more effective Fire+Earth Eles were with stacking bleeds compared to Necros.  I don't get exactly what they changed about the Necro to make that the case.  But I can affirm that the maximum number of Bleeds that I could establish and maintain on an enemy with my Necro went down by 5.  On average, it was anywhere between 8 to 10 stacks from my Necro on an enemy during a heated fight.  However, on my Ele, I could establish and maintain between 13 to 15 stacks with comparative ease.

Sure, I always grant the possibility that I could have been doing something wrong with the Necro during all my tests in and out of sPvP.  The probability of that possibility being actual is ultra low to me at this point, because I was using the same basic build and tactics that I used in BWE 1 and 2.  I will be rolling both professions at Official Release and seeing what changes they make.  Time will tell which one will become my main with regard to being a Conditionmancer.

[Spell]

Ill be doing some guide soon how to play Condition Necro in spvp. To be honest stacking 10-15 is quite easy as Necro in below 3-4 seconds, you just need to know how. Its easy to execute but not sure if its that easy to find out on your own if you don't theorycraft a lot.

Question - why you want Necro instead of cond damage Ele? You got more survival and better aoe conds and better cond control. Not to mention you apply Poison + Chill + Weakness at same time so if any burst character would be there with you in 2vX you would pretty much destroy enemy team.

Edited by Spell, 28 July 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Ronat]

Applying 15 bleeds is indeed very easy as a Necro, with Mark of Blood/Evasion you are even able stack up to 20 bleeds.
Besides Deahly Swarm, Corrupt Boon and Epidemic we also got Plage, the AoE Poison and Blind is a huge advantage at attacking/defending a point.

[Kharpalo]

Cond ele is pretty interesting build. Earth/arcane ele is so nimble that it can often be more survivable build, but ele and necro fill two totally different roles. Necro is more about condition control where condition ele is just damage. Also dodge builds are better in skirmishing where necro exceeds in group fights due the team utility and due the fact that survivability is based more on soaking damage instead of avoiding it.

No doubt in my mind that necro wouldn't be the better condition profession for competitive environment.

Edited by Kharpalo, 28 July 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[mazut]

Guys to play Necro is a calling. You dont play it cus its strong or durable or the d*** of the month, you play it cus its Necro and you love it and care for it and pet it and change its diapers... Its exactly like to care for a baby
Love your necros and spit on this eles... Let them think they are better

Edited by mazut, 28 July 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[Tevesh]

Ele has no condition related utility effects and little to no condition removal. Sure, he does a bit more damage in his condition build..because he cant do anything outside from that damage. Does not even have poison for heal debuff, has no weapon swap for chilling, little to no cc etc. Ranger also does a lot more condition damage, as well as engineer, but just as ele they lack any condition-related utility - or, realistically, any utility while they build for condition damage, and they have little defense against conditions.

[Brayzz]

Necro can "CONTROL" conditions (and boons too) that is why we are called condition class, but OTHER classes can stack condition as good as us.

Edited by Brayzz, 29 July 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Alex Dimitri]

Always considered Ele`s as pure damage class, and truth be told they exceed on that field just see good Ele in WvW. But when it comes to conditions good Necro is king of the hill, unfortunetly for Necros that`s about only viable PvP build for us right now !

[Egoist]

Tevesh, on 29 July 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Ele has no condition related utility effects and little to no condition removal. Sure, he does a bit more damage in his condition build..because he cant do anything outside from that damage. Does not even have poison for heal debuff, has no weapon swap for chilling, little to no cc etc. Ranger also does a lot more condition damage, as well as engineer, but just as ele they lack any condition-related utility - or, realistically, any utility while they build for condition damage, and they have little defense against conditions.

He actually does terrible damage outside of his conditions and 112 isn't amazingly high for bleed ticks, for that specialisation you never see him drop into any other attunement which basicly means he is playing his class at about 1/4 of its potential. If as a necro i could stack 12 bleeds then change to another weapon set that had a burst skill to hit for 1/3 of someones health and burst people down i would do, but he isn't using fire or lightning attunements, it seems to be a best bits compilation so he might play better in actual game play but from that video he basicly uses the 1 skill from scepter earth attunement.

I don't want to seem like i am totally bashing his spec but he has gone for full condition duration as well which for pvp seems a little silly, anyone with condition removal will invalidate most of his condition duration and backloading his damage means he is stacking a larger number of coditions for a longer time but doing less damage as a result, he is stacking bleeds that last for 6 seconds with +20% trait, +30% trait points, +15% runes, +10% sigil, +10% sigil, duration which means he is stacking 11.2 second bleeds, most necro's are using a spec with +20% trait and +15% runes, which means their scepter 1 skill is stacking 9.45 second bleeds since they normally last for 7 seconds. The attack rate is a little lower but necro's have the bleed on crit trait (most necro's have much higher than 4% crit, i had 62%) and a sigil of earth, so my necro build which is pretty much identical to everyone elses as it was the only build that worked probably stacked bleeds faster than the elementalist but they didn't presist as long so it was harder to get to higher stacks.

I like the idea behind his build but it probably needs some polish, i'd love to see a full tpvp match of someone using the build in team fights against organised opponents. I'd also like to see someone who has truely mastered the elementalist playing as i saw some ele's dancing through attunements and playing amazingly well.

[Darkheron]

http://www.guildwars...eeds-and-burns/

Seems to indicate you can get 25 stacks of bleed with Elementalist.  I never tried doing that on mine, but if so, is there some way a necro can do that too?

And the guy in this video seemed more like he was playing the spec for testing or to prove a point or something.  His actual Elementalist gameplay skills were pretty low.  Putting some time into learning the other sets and switching to them for the good skills/effects would have made this look much better.

[Egoist]

I doubt getting to 25 stacks solo is likely in pvp, simply due to removal. Specing for duration makes it easier to stack to higher numbers but then a similarly spec'd necro could have 115% duration making the scepter auto attack bleeds 15.05 seconds with rounded damage from the remainder.

Its certainly an option to build like this but i would rather take short duration bleeds for pressure than attempting to stack them high and be removal fodder.

I'm not sure how he's actually working out his bleed applications either since stone shards seems to be a channel ability, it takes about 3 seconds to stack those bleeds meaning when you hit around 18 your first stacks are starting to drop off. 18 stacks is still heavy degeneration and i would think that most classes who focus on stacking should reach 18 solo, i'd still rather have less duration and more other stats though.

[Kharpalo]

I don't think it's even smart to put too much emphasis onto hitting that 25 bleed stacks. Glass cannon is glass cannon whenever it is direct or condition damage.

[Marooned]

yes necro can control conditions and stuff like no other, but the difference here is that the Ele can stack that much bleed that fast just by spamming auto attack, no skill needed at all. And add to that the burst he can do with all other attacks  in the meantime, its a killer. It just shows how versatile the Elementalist can be.

[Tevesh]

Egoist, on 29 July 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

He actually does terrible damage outside of his conditions and 112 isn't amazingly high for bleed ticks, for that specialisation you never see him drop into any other attunement which basicly means he is playing his class at about 1/4 of its potential.

I wasnt referring to that particular video. I havent even watched it. So yeah that player may be bad, condition eles are good, one of the reasons is they do not really depend on crit and can afford to wear the Carrion amulet which provides decent direct damage output as well.

Also you seem to value sigil of earth too much. Sure its nice, but realistically that's a 60% proc to do 500 damage over 5 sec on a crit, and how much crit chance do you have? Any class with access to weapon swap definitely has better options than that.

[Sep]

2 sigils of earth give increased chances to proc on crit,
and most condition necros have 50% +/-10% critrate.

Without SoE our condition generation is severely limited. We have few ways to burst bleed numbers beyond Marks of Blood, as all our other condition applicators apply 1 bleed at a time.

Edited by Sep, 30 July 2012 - 04:50 AM.

[Egoist]

Tevesh, on 30 July 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

I wasnt referring to that particular video. I havent even watched it. So yeah that player may be bad, condition eles are good, one of the reasons is they do not really depend on crit and can afford to wear the Carrion amulet which provides decent direct damage output as well.

Also you seem to value sigil of earth too much. Sure its nice, but realistically that's a 60% proc to do 500 damage over 5 sec on a crit, and how much crit chance do you have? Any class with access to weapon swap definitely has better options than that.

Not sure why you picked up on one part of my post but i'll try to respond. It seems you think this post was an answer to one of your own, i do not know which post you think i am responding too as i only see one other post from you about utility skills. I agree condition ele can be good as can any class which has a condition option, however my point was that this particular ele player wasn't using his class to the fullest as he was only using 1/4 of his weapon skills. A better ele might have given us a better idea on the spec's viability as spamming one button works in spvp but having a pub stomper spec is not what we are discussing.

I don't over value sigil of earth, i put a lot of stock into the adept minor trait from the curses line which always stacks a bleed on a crit and sigil of earth pairs with that trait well for stacking bleeds. Most of the weapon swap runes are pretty terrible due to the weapon swap cooldown, the best one i found for necro was energy to try and mitigate our terrible mobility. Chill could be defensive but chill on swap doesn't really last long enough to save you from anything.

[Sep]

Egoist, on 30 July 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I don't over value sigil of earth, i put a lot of stock into the adept minor trait from the curses line which always stacks a bleed on a crit and sigil of earth pairs with that trait well for stacking bleeds. Most of the weapon swap runes are pretty terrible due to the weapon swap cooldown, the best one i found for necro was energy to try and mitigate our terrible mobility. Chill could be defensive but chill on swap doesn't really last long enough to save you from anything.

What was the the duration of our bleed on crit trait in BWE3? Because in BWE2 it was 1 second... so all we got was 1 tick from it.

[Egoist]

It seemed like it was 3 seconds, but i did have some duration increase so maybe it was still 1 second. I believe thats one of the things they will change when they look at necro traits. However the engineer on crit bleed is only 33% chance for a short duration.