199 replies to this topic

[Moldran]

I made a very short video were I talk about the infamous warrior ability Hundred Blades.

In my opinion, the ability together with frenzy can be incredibly frustrating for new players. PvP should be attractive to new players and casual players as well.
Secondly, each ability should have it's place on highend PvP as well. Currently, hundred blades is too easy to counter by experienced players.

You can also see Top Warrior PvP equipment (human warrior) by a warrior that won 70 tournaments out of 74.



Let me hear your opinions on Hundred Blades, if you would like to have it changed and how they could change it.

[Alaroxr]

It's easy to counter until you get CC applied to you, and then you're done. Plus, if they get the jump on you then you're likely going to be hit with the whole thing as well.

If you have someone working along side the Warrior, then it becomes even worse since it's only a matter of time until the manage to CC you.

As an example, look at the moment 12 seconds into your video. The player hit by the knockdown and then 100b has no warning whatsoever, and due to the knockdown they can not react. Of course, in 5v5 that will be less common but still obviously possible.

-----------

However, I do agree with your suggested change.

Edited by Alaroxr, 29 July 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Zinn]

Alaroxr, on 29 July 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

It's easy to counter until you get CC applied to you, and then you're done. Plus, if they get the jump on you then you're likely going to be hit with the whole thing as well.

If you have someone working along side the Warrior, then it becomes even worse since it's only a matter of time until the manage to CC you.

As an example, look at the moment 12 seconds into your video. The player hit by the knockdown and then 100b has no warning whatsoever, and due to the knockdown they can not react. Of course, in 5v5 that will be less common but still obviously possible.

-----------

However, I do agree with your suggested change.

So what if someone got caught with it?  Do you think it should never be able to be used effectively?

The ability is easily counterable as he explained.

I don't think full mobility should be allowed, even at half damage.  Make it crippled movement speed.

[MikeFish]

I found it completely changed any game I was in. If I noticed the warrior doing this, I'd be fine. I'd find a way to avoid the initial charge or teleport out of the damage zone somehow and when this happened I absolutely loved it. It was like I'd solved the problem and finally I could kill those people spamming a build they'd seen on youtube. I usually spent the rest of the game, actively targetting that warrior and practicing timing my escapes. It would dominate my thoughts for the entirety of that match.

On the other hand, if the warrior sneaks up on you and your escape skill is on cooldown or for whatever reason you do not see his approach then it can be literally impossible to defend against. I don't want to have to save my escape skills for one particular player in a team simply because of one skill.

I think high level PvP will quickly outgrow it and you're right about it being bad for new players. I expect Anet will do more about it. They clearly see it as a problem and have taken a look at it already and from what they've said, the next month or so will all be about balance etc. Your idea of having a half and half mobile and damage skill is ok, but don't you think it might then make it overpowered again for very high level PvP? Imagine another 7k damage mobile skill in your hands before you answer that question

EDIT: Can someone confirm this though for me. I THINK you can teleport with skills like blink or shadowstep even if you've been knocked down. Am I right?

Edited by MikeFish, 29 July 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Smellyead]

It's just a gimmick ability at the moment for any player with brains. It's easy to counter and just becomes a non factor if you have a team setup like Super Squad did.

I think currently GS is actually one of the weaker weapons for Warrior due to how easy it is to counter. We had much more success with a Warrior using a bow instead. We only lost 3 tournaments with our setup out of 60.


If they make it so you can move while channelling the ability, will half damage be enough? Since in your video you easily crit 10k+ with each swing from it, so it'll still be ~5k a hit, with Frenzy up it'll still be quite powerful even more so with you moving. Some number tweaking is still needed for 100 Blades to become effective for high end PvP.

[Silent The Legend]

Tbh, HB is super frustating even in tPvP, if a warrior comes from behind, you cant even dodge it, and you get roflstomped.

[AndrewSX]

It's a bit like the old Ride The LIghting team in HA.

Lame 8x Ele spiking a target each, one single bullet.

It's a bit that kind of things that if your opponent has half a brain, and can see you/can expect it, it simply won't work 9 times on 10.

But that single time on 10 (that can happen even to the most espert pvper, due to tons of variables like enemy teammates, CDs), or if your opponent isn't able to see/counter it, it's devasting to the borderline of oneshotting.

Imo, glass cannon build gambling the big hit are ok. But, they must never be able to oneshot ppl, and shouldn't be the mindless thing that GS is atm.
Bulls -> frenzy -> HB -> swap and Eviscerate if target is not dead -> repeat.
If something goes wrong, or you get killed, simply wait CDs or respawn and repeat.

That's what's wrong.
(also, add in the mix the innate OP high armor/hp of War, that can spec glass cannon and do NOT be so much glassy.)

[Moldran]

Smellyead, on 29 July 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

It's just a gimmick ability at the moment for any player with brains. It's easy to counter and just becomes a non factor if you have a team setup like Super Squad did.

I think currently GS is actually one of the weaker weapons for Warrior due to how easy it is to counter.

If they make it so you can move while channelling the ability, will half damage be enough? Since in your video you easily crit 10k+ with each swing from it, so it'll still be ~5k a hit, with Frenzy up it'll still be quite powerful even more so with you moving. Some number tweaking is still needed for 100 Blades to become effective for high end PvP.

That's the reason why it should be changed. Very annoying and frustrating for new players to the game, on the other hand, it can be countered without too much effort.

You are wrong on the hundred blades damage. They changed it after BWE1, since then, it's showing the accumulated amount of damage, not the damage for every single hit. So if the hundred blades ends with 10k, it doesn't mean that the last hit was 10k after 6k, 8k, 9k before, it means that the entire hundred blades did 10k damage (which is still a lot).

[Proudfoot]

The suggestion makes sense to me. Aren't there other skills with similar "AoE burst attack while moving" functionality, though? I wonder if that would make Hundred Blades less unique, reducing skill diversity.

[Smellyead]

Moldran, on 29 July 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

That's the reason why it should be changed. Very annoying and frustrating for new players to the game, on the other hand, it can be countered without too much effort.

You are wrong on the hundred blades damage. They changed it after BWE1, since then, it's showing the accumulated amount of damage, not the damage for every single hit. So if the hundred blades ends with 10k, it doesn't mean that the last hit was 10k after 6k, 8k, 9k before, it means that the entire hundred blades did 10k damage (which is still a lot).

That's what I meant not 10k per swing but 10k per full duration, bad wording on my part.

If they did what you suggest with half damage, I think they'll have to take away the cleave component build in, since you'll still be able to deal massive damage to grouped up players. With Frenzy up it'll still be very hard hitting.

[Nytefawl]

I pretty much agree with the OP.

A tweak such as reducing the damage by half but enabling it to be cast while moving would bring it in to balance.

[Alaroxr]

Silent The Legend, on 29 July 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Tbh, HB is super frustating even in tPvP, if a warrior comes from behind, you cant even dodge it, and you get roflstomped.

AndrewSX, on 29 July 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

It's a bit that kind of things that if your opponent has half a brain, and can see you/can expect it, it simply won't work 9 times on 10.

But that single time on 10 (that can happen even to the most expert pvper, due to tons of variables like enemy teammates, CDs), or if your opponent isn't able to see/counter it, it's devasting to the borderline of oneshotting.

MikeFish, on 29 July 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

On the other hand, if the warrior sneaks up on you and your escape skill is on cooldown or for whatever reason you do not see his approach then it can be literally impossible to defend against. I don't want to have to save my escape skills for one particular player in a team simply because of one skill.

Pretty much. If you have your cooldowns and you're anticipating the attack, it can be easily avoided via dodge/stability/block.

However, if you're caught off guard in even the slightest regard (or if you're caught without your cooldowns or dodge), you're basically guaranteed to take 8k-12k to the face.

Edited by Alaroxr, 29 July 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Zetesofos]

At this point, I think the best way to balance it is to make HB the Burst ability for Greatsword.  For one, as a burst ability, it'll keep warriors from chaining HB and Evicerate (the real killer combo).  Secondly, as a burst skill, it should keep the problem of warriors using it as a first strike weapon.

I have no problem, really, with warriors using it during the fight - at that point, I should be paying attention, and deserve to get hit by it if not.

[GinsterUnit]

Zetesofos, on 29 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

At this point, I think the best way to balance it is to make HB the Burst ability for Greatsword.  For one, as a burst ability, it'll keep warriors from chaining HB and Evicerate (the real killer combo).  Secondly, as a burst skill, it should keep the problem of warriors using it as a first strike weapon.

I have no problem, really, with warriors using it during the fight - at that point, I should be paying attention, and deserve to get hit by it if not.

I like this guys idea ^

[Ranko]

I agree that the skill is painfully easy to counter, in a number of ways, but I'm not sure adding movement and reducing damage is the solution, unless you move at slightly reduced speed. A fully mobile character able to pump out even half the damage that the skill does now, seems extremely strong.

I'd say give them 75% run speed, and maybe just under half the current damage... That should make it still avoidable, while not being the complete gamebreaker if it does hit.

[MikeFish]

Zetesofos, on 29 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

At this point, I think the best way to balance it is to make HB the Burst ability for Greatsword.  For one, as a burst ability, it'll keep warriors from chaining HB and Evicerate (the real killer combo).  Secondly, as a burst skill, it should keep the problem of warriors using it as a first strike weapon.

This to me is the best solution aswell.

[HumanComplex]

I don't play with in a team yet so if i miss my dodge roll or just dont have endurance, the enemy warrior is taking me to brown town. if i play engineer I always have rocket boots as a saftey net. I'm not aware of any other class skill or trait that could back you up if you miss your dodge (but i would like to know).

In team play I think its a non issue. you'll still take a few k if you miss a roll or whatever but your teammates could cc the offending warrior to cut HB short.

I think they should be careful about nurfing a skill based on how it does with haste, it might then be useless without haste. maybe haste should be shortened or decrease attack speed to maybe 70% instead of 100% or whatever it is.

I think the class specific debuffs for haste were a good idea.

[Sephiroth]

Maybe they should allow movement during HB, but reduce damage only while on the move.  As for new players, getting stomped is part of the experience.  HB warriors probably won't make up for more than 5% of the player base, so there really isn't much to worry about.

[Rhomulos]

I say reduce damage by 30% and switch CDs with whirlwind.

[defence13]

Zetesofos, on 29 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

At this point, I think the best way to balance it is to make HB the Burst ability for Greatsword.  For one, as a burst ability, it'll keep warriors from chaining HB and Evicerate (the real killer combo).  Secondly, as a burst skill, it should keep the problem of warriors using it as a first strike weapon.

I feel that if this did happen (and I hope it does) anet would need to buff this skill somehow.  I say this because while HB can be devastating, it doesn't compare to a level 3 eviscerate or flurry when considering what those skills bring to the table.

[Raggok]

I think it's kind of humorous how alot of people are thinking that Moldran is calling 100blades OP on youtube and reddit.

[Aodan]

You still need burst in the game in general. That is the issue.  I think your suggestion is founded, and I rather see some of the damage nerfed but add movement.

But as in BWE3, there was an very unfair advantage to heavy Condition/Survival comps vs balanced or burst comps.

Because much of Condition damage is itemization with a accompanied traits in usually survival lines, players didn't have to worry too greatly about burst other than from a warrior.

(See SS v TP video)

That high damage is needed, and the fact that the price is payed with WELL timed control + burst seems feasible.

I think a big issue with 100b is more in it's short cooldown. I feel it should be at least a 15s.

Ranko, on 29 July 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

I agree that the skill is painfully easy to counter, in a number of ways, but I'm not sure adding movement and reducing damage is the solution, unless you move at slightly reduced speed. A fully mobile character able to pump out even half the damage that the skill does now, seems extremely strong.

I'd say give them 75% run speed, and maybe just under half the current damage... That should make it still avoidable, while not being the complete gamebreaker if it does hit.

This but then again, the CD is a huge issue. DPS according to CD is VERY high for this ability.

I still feel that the current form needs to be kept but a 15-25s cd is needed. That way not every 10 seconds your getting a chance to get heavily bursted.

[StRaNgE_LoYaLtY]

HumanComplex, on 29 July 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't play with in a team yet so if i miss my dodge roll or just dont have endurance, the enemy warrior is taking me to brown town. if i play engineer I always have rocket boots as a saftey net. I'm not aware of any other class skill or trait that could back you up if you miss your dodge (but i would like to know).

In team play I think its a non issue. you'll still take a few k if you miss a roll or whatever but your teammates could cc the offending warrior to cut HB short.

I think they should be careful about nurfing a skill based on how it does with haste, it might then be useless without haste. maybe haste should be shortened or decrease attack speed to maybe 70% instead of 100% or whatever it is.

I think the class specific debuffs for haste were a good idea.

The ranger utility skill lightning reflexes acts the same way as rocket boots I believe, except that lightning reflexes also grants brief vigor.

[Runkleford]

It's too much "all or nothing". Too easy to counter when you see it coming but too hard to survive it when you're ambushed or CC'ed by just two enemies.

[Moorecore]

This youtube video was posted today



Top rated comments:

"

I'm fine with adjusting hundred blades, but what I'm really worried about is a shitload of good things being nerfed because people are too stupid to think when they play.

capiki"

"I never played a Warrior myself, but I think it's fine. The "killer combo" everyone talks about is Bull Rush + Frenzy + Hundred Blades, which is apparently unavoidable (with stability, or proper dodge rolling it is). The thing is, for this combo, a warrior has to "waste" 2 utility skills. On top of that, in any situation thats not 1v1, it makes the warrior extremely vulnerable with the recent Frenzy nerf. Let people make their insta-gib builds if they please, it is fine for me with the downsides

omergurlek"

Discus

[Kormir]

just dodge it

[Moorecore]

I think that is the main point of dodge as player skill develops. Knowing what skills to dodge and how to properly use that resource rather than spamming it or waiting till your almost dead and using it to escape.

Edited by Moorecore, 29 July 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Kormir]

Moorecore, on 29 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

I think that is the main point of dodge as player skill develops. Knowing what skills to dodge and how to properly use that resource rather than spamming it or waiting till your almost dead and using it to escape.

if anet decides to nerf the ability they better increase the cd and don't mess up with the dammage :@

[Kharpalo]

Stacking toughness already makes GS warrior slightly pariah class. I don't think glass cannon GS warriors will be the go to build after couple of weeks beyond release.

Make no mistake warriors are very strong, but GS glass cannon won't be the build that's being played in competitive environment.

Edited by Kharpalo, 29 July 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[DoogerRLH]

Right now 100B provides 3 uses: killing noobies, applying pressure to an area to force people to move (either to help cap or to provide "cover fire" for ressing, whatever.), and occasional burst in a setup combo and/or limited space area.

The video was clearly talking structured pvp where forcing people out of an area (such as keep door) is not in the picture, and the remaining use cases are lower than what they are looking for in terms of controlled take downs on focus targets.

I think it still has the effect they are asking for, as a it still often can do half damage (it still hits people for a few tick,s esp if stunned or distracted) before they move/dodge out of the way.  Its an aoe, and it still does its job of making people move, killing pets and people not moving out of it.

Wanting it to become a controlled single target burst or some such is not what the greatswords design is clearly aiming for.  and yes, he wants it to be used for bursting down people (as would anyone doing burst builds, including myself), the sudden consern for noobies aside lol.

Edited by DoogerRLH, 29 July 2012 - 07:12 PM.