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Thoughts on Hundred Blades, Amazing warrior PvP gear

hundred blades warrior moldran frenzy team paradigm arenanet gw2 nerf op

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#31 Moorecore

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:08 PM

Yeah, I was thinking maybe the cool down could be increased to 10 seconds and with the nerf to frenzy they are going to be very squishy as it is.

#32 Wixu

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:11 PM

There is already a thread about this started by the guy who made the video...

http://www.guildwars...rrior-pvp-gear/

#33 Ayestes

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:14 PM

Small increases to the cooldown won't really change anything, because the skill is already incredibly situation in the first place.   Personally, I'd rather they decrease the damage, decrease the channel time, and move some of the expected damage over to the auto attacks and burst skill.  It doesn't need to be nerfed, nor buffed. It may need to be readjusted.  However, I think ANet really wants the skill to remain the way it is, and I'm okay with that.

The Greatsword is good, but it's not good at killing people.  It's great at mobility, area denial, and objectives. Heck the auto-attacks make it good for focus fire, but it's not good at the thing that most people seem to believe.  It's burst damage is simply not reliable.  Burning utility slots to make it land can be futile as they can easily be countered by things that most people will be running anyway.  Not to mention, a sufficient amount of Toughness negates the burst already.

Edited by Ayestes, 29 July 2012 - 08:24 PM.


#34 DoogerRLH

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:26 PM

Right now 100B provides 3 uses:
  • applying pressure to an area to force people to move (either to help cap or to provide "cover fire" for ressing, whatever.)
  • occasional full/partial burst in a setup combo and/or limited space area.
  • killing noobies
100b is an aoe on an AoE weapon, people are attempting to use for focus target kills because its so powerful, but as the video figured out, thats not its intended use.

Its main usage in pvp, will be world pvp and trying to force people off doors etc.

Wanting it to be a focus target burst down ability (while I fully understand why you want it), is clearly not the intent of the ability or the flavor of the weapon.  I liked the sudden concern for noobies part though, lol

You already can get the effect you are asking for as you will often get partial damage before people move, again this is a channeled AoE ability not a F1 burst or single target burst ability.  people taking partial damage is its designed usage, as its meant to provide area pressure

Edited by DoogerRLH, 29 July 2012 - 07:39 PM.


#35 Larynx

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:36 PM

I like his suggestion. Reduce the damage by a significant amount, but it no longer roots you.

#36 Zetesofos

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:45 PM

View Postdefence13, on 29 July 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I feel that if this did happen (and I hope it does) anet would need to buff this skill somehow.  I say this because while HB can be devastating, it doesn't compare to a level 3 eviscerate or flurry when considering what those skills bring to the table.

I do like the idea of possibly allowing movement in exchange for reduced damage on ability.  I think it would be easier understood though, as average damage for Eviscerate is around 8-10k, so it makes sense to have HB be higher than that, with the trade off that it must be dodged, avoided.  

Also, in case it matters, I think perhaps eviscerate should have a longer wind up animation, but make the 'leap' faster to compensate, to allow more people to react to it in close quarters.

#37 Larynx

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostZetesofos, on 29 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

At this point, I think the best way to balance it is to make HB the Burst ability for Greatsword.  For one, as a burst ability, it'll keep warriors from chaining HB and Evicerate (the real killer combo).  Secondly, as a burst skill, it should keep the problem of warriors using it as a first strike weapon.

I have no problem, really, with warriors using it during the fight - at that point, I should be paying attention, and deserve to get hit by it if not.

Interesting idea.

#38 DoogerRLH

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostZetesofos, on 29 July 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I do like the idea of possibly allowing movement in exchange for reduced damage on ability.  I think it would be easier understood though, as average damage for Eviscerate is around 8-10k, so it makes sense to have HB be higher than that, with the trade off that it must be dodged, avoided.  

Also, in case it matters, I think perhaps eviscerate should have a longer wind up animation, but make the 'leap' faster to compensate, to allow more people to react to it in close quarters.

Evis is a burst F1 ability, 100 B is not intended to be a burst ability.

Ie you press the evis button to burst people down, you press 100B to make people move out of an area or die.

#39 UssjTrunks

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:51 PM

Cutting damage in half and adding movement basically turns it into the guardian's Zealot's Defence.

I like this suggestion from the warrior forum:

View PostAyestes, on 29 July 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Personally, I'd rather they decrease the damage, decrease the channel time, and move some of the expected damage over to the auto attacks and burst skill.

The GS is a 1-trick pony right now. This way, the other skills on the weapon would be made more dangerous, while making HB itself more effective with the reduced channel time (which I think is part of what makes it so ineffective right now).

Edited by UssjTrunks, 29 July 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#40 typographie

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostKormir, on 29 July 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

if anet decides to nerf the ability they better increase the cd and don't mess up with the dammage :@

I'd rather they nerfed/redesigned Hundred Blades in order to buff the rest of the Greatsword skills (like, say, the burst skill). It could certainly make the weapon more interesting than just mashing '2' whenever possible.

#41 Beorn The Berserker

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:56 PM

I don't think your suggested change is viable. Cutting the damage in half would cause it to do less damage than auto attack, and without the benefit of adding Vulnerability condition. The entire caveat of this skill is that you need to stay still to use it, and it is unique because of that. Removing the self root would just make it a generic swingy sword skill with no other benefits, and as I said before, cutting the damage in half would make it hit for less than auto attack.

To change this ability I would suggest not lowering the damage of the overall ability, but shifting the damage of each strike to increase the longer you stay on the target. As the skill is right now, each strike does equal damage and the final strike does bonus damage.

Strikes 1-8: 300 dmg (2400 total)
Strike 9: 600 dmg

I suggest changing it to something like this:

Strike 1: 125 dmg
Strike 2: 175 dmg
Strike 3: 225 dmg
Strike 4: 275 dmg
Strike 5: 325 dmg
Strike 6: 375 dmg
Strike 7: 425 dmg
Strike 8: 475 dmg
Strike 9: 600 dmg

With a change like this, the maximum damage would stay the same, but it will have a much stronger benefit to people who can dodge out of the way sooner, since the first few strikes are doing less damage.

I personally think they should entirely overhaul it to make it more like 100 Blades from GW. In my mind this skill should function primarily as an AoE skill, and not have functionality as both AoE and single target burst. Making it like the original 100 Blades would give you a short buff that makes all your attacks do additional damage to nearby opponents. This would retain the AoE functionality of the skill but no longer has the single-target burst capability. Warriors already have enough single target burst with skills like Eviscerate and Kill shot.

#42 NeHoMaR

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:59 PM

I don't see any big problem here. If Warriors abuse this combo too much, people will learn how to counter it.

Frenzy has a 60 seconds recharge, plus you receive 50% more damage, only last 4 seconds. Bull's Charge lets you knockdown 2 secs, but only every 40 secs.

A Warrior can be overpowered for some seconds, but need to wait a minute to be overpowered again; I think all professions can do the same in some way, seconds of overpower, and a long wait.

All that videos show only the overpower part, and cut the parts when the Warrior has all skills recharging.

#43 UssjTrunks

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostNeHoMaR, on 29 July 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

I don't see any big problem here. If Warriors abuse this combo too much, people will learn how to counter it.

Frenzy has a 60 seconds recharge, plus you receive 50% more damage, only last 4 seconds. Bull's Charge lets you knockdown 2 secs, but only every 40 secs.

A Warrior can be overpowered for some seconds, but need to wait a minute to be overpowered again; I think all professions can do the same in some way, seconds of overpower, and a long wait.

All that videos show only the overpower part, and cut the parts when the Warrior has all skills recharging.

He's saying that the skill sucks right now in competitive play. He isn't saying it's OP.

#44 Giac

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:07 PM

Keep this ability unique imo. The cooldown was already increased from 6 to 8. This ability is extremely powerful in any environment and if you watch Moldran's stream from the last BWE, there's also an instance where he himself argues that while the ability can be countered, you can anticipate a counter and still make it work.

This, however, was before they lost their 5v5s, which imo is the main reason for his change of mind and his wish for change.

I do not think this is fair nor right. 100 blades is a unique and powerful ability and you can use it in so many ways, that changing it, because a certain type of player can not make it work, is a bad idea.

If I stacked all power and came here asking for a change to the 1H sword's flurry burst ability, because most of its damage is condition based, would that be fine as well or would you people tell me to stack condition damage if I wanted to make it work?

You either outsmart your opponent to make 100 blades work with your glass cannon build or you adapt. Try playing a very defensive spec and you will see that you will have absolutely no problem using 100 blades, because you can afford standing still for the 3.7s much easier. For those who choose to play defensively, 100 blades is a key ability, as it allows you to still deal a good chunk of damage, while remaining very sturdy and that's one of the reasons why it needs to stay as it is.

#45 NeHoMaR

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostUssjTrunks, on 29 July 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

He's saying that the skill sucks right now in competitive play. He isn't saying it's OP.
Maybe my english is not too good, what the next quote means to you? Not sure if he is talking about victims or users of the abilities.

View PostMoldran, on 29 July 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

..the ability together with frenzy can be incredibly frustrating for new players. PvP should be attractive to new players and casual players as well..

Edited by NeHoMaR, 29 July 2012 - 08:13 PM.


#46 Beorn The Berserker

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostNeHoMaR, on 29 July 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Maybe my english is not too good, what the next quote means to you? Not sure if he is talking about victims or users of the abilities.

Moldran is saying that Hundred Blades is too good against newbies and useless against people who know how to counter it.

#47 UssjTrunks

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostNeHoMaR, on 29 July 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Maybe my english is not too good, what the next quote means to you? Not sure if he is talking about victims or users of the abilities.

Your English is fine. That is what he's saying there. However, he also said this:

Quote

Secondly, each ability should have it's place on high end PvP as well. Currently, hundred blades is too easy to counter by experienced players.

Which is pretty much what you said in your post:

View PostNeHoMaR, on 29 July 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

I don't see any big problem here. If Warriors abuse this combo too much, people will learn how to counter it.

Sorry if my post was confusing.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 29 July 2012 - 08:24 PM.


#48 Ayestes

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:31 PM

I think it does have a place in high end pvp currently.  It's just not for burst damage.  Particularly, the stability revive/stomp game that appears to be popping up.  If you throw out Hundred Blades on top of someone doing that, they must move immediately, when a control skill won't achieve that.   It's also an excellent objective completion skill, but I'm sure everyone knows that.  

I however, stand by my original suggestion that UssjTrunks had thrown out, but I'd be fine if the skill remained the way it was.  The Greatsword functions as a mobility weapon with area denial, while the auto attacks allow excellent focus fire opportunities.  It's not a burst damage weapon though, at least in more experienced PvP... of which I don't think it takes much to garner that experience at this point.

#49 NeHoMaR

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:36 PM

View PostBeorn The Berserker, on 29 July 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Moldran is saying that Hundred Blades is too good against newbies and useless against people who know how to counter it.
Is not that true for all skills in the game?

EDIT: Lets elaborate a little to not look too sarcastic:

If you are in a coordinated team, "highend" as the first post says, you will be able to coordinate other players to snare, KD, or any other way to control the enemy to force it to be in the hundred blades effect. And about newbies, as I said, they will learn soon or later to counter it.

Edited by NeHoMaR, 29 July 2012 - 08:50 PM.


#50 Beorn The Berserker

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:48 PM

View PostNeHoMaR, on 29 July 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Is not that true for all skills in the game?

No that's not true.

#51 Mr Goop

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:48 PM

Essentially yes, but what he's saying is it's too easy to counter by skilled players and too easy to overwhelm new players with it.

#52 NeHoMaR

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:49 PM

Lets elaborate a little to not look too sarcastic:

If you are in a coordinated team, "highend" as the first post says, you will be able to coordinate other players to snare, KD, or any other way to control the enemy to force it to be in the hundred blades effect. And about newbies, as I said, they will learn soon or later to counter it.

#53 Mr.Charr

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

There are many reasons to change it, and many reasons to keep it the same.

I think people's biggest complaint about the skill is how its just not fun.

Its not fun for warrior's using the skill.  (unless they are destroying everything on the map)
and its not fun for people on the receiving end of the skill.

Didn't Colin just release a blog about anets design goal of making things fun? Or was that only on his end of things?


Anyway, I think they should make this skill mobile, and lower or spread the damage to other skills. Could even give us a brand new skill, see how that goes.

#54 DoogerRLH

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostMr Goop, on 29 July 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Essentially yes, but what he's saying is it's too easy to counter by skilled players and too easy to overwhelm new players with it.

Nah, he is really saying he wants it to be changed to a burst ability, instead of an aoe designed to pressure people out of spots.

Its not gonna happen, we already have axe/axe build to do what he wants.

Lets not pretend to be worried about new players here, the desire is to put up huge burst numbers using a glass cannon build supported by a team.

Axe/Axe already provides this kind of game play.

#55 Bean_Muncher

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:15 PM

I think the whole "lock you in place and deal huge damage" idea is just not going to work. The way HB is now, there will always be OP combos. I would like to see it changed to behave like the OH Axe skill Whirling Axe. Hit everyone around you multiple times, being able to move while spinning. Of course its damage would be toned down a bit and the CD would be increased to about 20 seconds, which is very appropriate for an areal denial skill.

#56 Haku

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:27 PM

The skill is fine. It does massive damage because it's hard to get hit by. Everyone should be carrying a stun break. In competitive pvp the warrior will prbably get blown up immediately if he popped frenzy aswell.

It's a high risk high reward type thing, with the favor being on your side significantly if they've exhausted their ability to get away from you.

For only being the 2nd skill on a weapon it's a great skill. Can't see why people are complaining. This is some sort of cry for attention or something.

#57 Valius

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:35 PM

View PostBeorn The Berserker, on 29 July 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I don't think your suggested change is viable. Cutting the damage in half would cause it to do less damage than auto attack, and without the benefit of adding Vulnerability condition. The entire caveat of this skill is that you need to stay still to use it, and it is unique because of that. Removing the self root would just make it a generic swingy sword skill with no other benefits, and as I said before, cutting the damage in half would make it hit for less than auto attack.

To change this ability I would suggest not lowering the damage of the overall ability, but shifting the damage of each strike to increase the longer you stay on the target. As the skill is right now, each strike does equal damage and the final strike does bonus damage.

Strikes 1-8: 300 dmg (2400 total)
Strike 9: 600 dmg

I suggest changing it to something like this:

Strike 1: 125 dmg
Strike 2: 175 dmg
Strike 3: 225 dmg
Strike 4: 275 dmg
Strike 5: 325 dmg
Strike 6: 375 dmg
Strike 7: 425 dmg
Strike 8: 475 dmg
Strike 9: 600 dmg

With a change like this, the maximum damage would stay the same, but it will have a much stronger benefit to people who can dodge out of the way sooner, since the first few strikes are doing less damage.

I personally think they should entirely overhaul it to make it more like 100 Blades from GW. In my mind this skill should function primarily as an AoE skill, and not have functionality as both AoE and single target burst. Making it like the original 100 Blades would give you a short buff that makes all your attacks do additional damage to nearby opponents. This would retain the AoE functionality of the skill but no longer has the single-target burst capability. Warriors already have enough single target burst with skills like Eviscerate and Kill shot.

That's horrible. How is that even useful at all?

A normal autoattack crit hits more than that.

#58 Mr Goop

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:42 PM

Dooger, that would be his suggestion for a solution where what im referring to would be the 'problem'. Personally, I think it's fine where it is. On the first day of BWE2(my first day playing), I found myself getting crushed by the HB->Eviscerate combo. Once I realized the tell-tale signs of that build it became MUCH easier to avoid. In my opinion it only dominates those who are extremely unfamiliar with PVP. Now in a competitive setting I could see its pros and cons. With support from a teammate(ex: coordinating a signet of earth) it could be extremely effective.

#59 CrunkJuice2

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostBean_Muncher, on 29 July 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I think the whole "lock you in place and deal huge damage" idea is just not going to work. The way HB is now, there will always be OP combos. I would like to see it changed to behave like the OH Axe skill Whirling Axe. Hit everyone around you multiple times, being able to move while spinning. Of course its damage would be toned down a bit and the CD would be increased to about 20 seconds, which is very appropriate for an areal denial skill.

warriors arent really the only profession though that have skills that lock you in place though

when you use pistol whip on a thief it locks you in place also

Edited by CrunkJuice2, 29 July 2012 - 10:01 PM.


#60 Slashiroth

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:07 PM

Watched the video, and I agree with one of the comments being essentially "nerfing the skills so people who don't really know how to play, can endure." This is one thing I'm very concerned about for pvp, and I just hope Anet won't slip up on it.

In terms of the 100 blades skill, it can be easily countered. I think its a fair skill to have. However, when your cc'd I believe there should be some alleviation or a little mitigation to at least not get you 1-hit.

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