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Crafting Discoveries: Mountain of Mats


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#31 zwei2stein

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:20 AM

View PostRashy, on 30 July 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

I wouldn't doubt it; you get about 1.5 levels worth of exp per discovery. Considering 1 discovery per insignia per tier, that's a lot of levels. And that's not including refining materials. Factoring in the fact that exp decreases if you're far over the level requirement for the discovery would bring down the number of levels, but it only takes about 125 levels worth of discoveries to skip a tier (after refining materials for the first 25 levels).

Tailoring, for example. 6 gear slots, 6 stat types (x2 for masterworks) - that is 72 discoveries following easy pattern.

Then you have devout set (5 discoveries), bags (3 discoveries) and 7 runes.

That is at least 87 jute discoveries  - if we go by 1.5 levels per discovery, you can get 130 points - if you do your refining before starting with discoveries, jute alone can get you to 155 in tailoring.

#32 Chalky

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:37 AM

You should be able to level up your crafting by making a single set of each craftable gear level.  The argument that you will save money by doubling up tiers is just plain wrong - you stop gaining experience for the previous tier at a certain point and you get diminishing returns before that.  I'm not totally sure what the numbers are, but you can't just say "you'll get 1.5 levels per discovery" - half way through the next tier you'll be getting 0 exp per discovery, and you'll have wasted most of your refinement exp that you're going to have to do anyway.

Also you probably want a full set of crafted gear for your character to actually wear of each level.
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#33 zwei2stein

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:53 AM

View PostChalky, on 30 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You should be able to level up your crafting by making a single set of each craftable gear level.  The argument that you will save money by doubling up tiers is just plain wrong - you stop gaining experience for the previous tier at a certain point and you get diminishing returns before that.  I'm not totally sure what the numbers are, but you can't just say "you'll get 1.5 levels per discovery" - half way through the next tier you'll be getting 0 exp per discovery, and you'll have wasted most of your refinement exp that you're going to have to do anyway.

Also you probably want a full set of crafted gear for your character to actually wear of each level.

I was getting decent, more than one crafting level, XP from jute masterwork discoveries around ~100 skill. This was beta1/2 thou, so it might have been changed later.

Still, let's wait till release and do some rerearch then (assuming no alpha folk will care to verify this and try it rightaway).

#34 Jokerx7

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:01 AM

View Postzwei2stein, on 30 July 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

I was getting decent, more than one crafting level, XP from jute masterwork discoveries around ~100 skill. This was beta1/2 thou, so it might have been changed later.

Still, let's wait till release and do some rerearch then (assuming no alpha folk will care to verify this and try it rightaway).
It's nowhere near 1 level if you are at high levels. It gets to around 10% of a level when you are like 100 levels above it. And it drops pretty quickly to 0. (If you are like 150-175 levels above it)
Not exactly sure about the numbers, since I tested this in BWE1 and haven't write it anywhere. But it's like that. :)
If you craft something around your level, you do get a lot of levels for it. When you are like 25+ levels away from it is when you get 1.5 levels.

#35 Chalky

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:05 AM

View Postzwei2stein, on 30 July 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

I was getting decent, more than one crafting level, XP from jute masterwork discoveries around ~100 skill. This was beta1/2 thou, so it might have been changed later.

Still, let's wait till release and do some rerearch then (assuming no alpha folk will care to verify this and try it rightaway).

Getting exp at 100 skill is nowhere near the same as saying you can skip wool entirely though.  You'll find yourself at 120 skill needing to make a whole load of wool items to get beyond that point, but barely gaining any exp from wool refinement, component or bag production.  Don't forget you can sell bags for a decent profit to non crafters so you may as well make them for exp when you get the chance.

You need a full set of gear every 5 levels, and if you craft it, you will level up your crafting the whole way with no problems.
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#36 Porkchop Sandwiches

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:17 AM

Wow, so glad I'm not alone in making spread sheets for crafting. I was going to make a spreadsheet for leather crafting, too. Those numbers are a bit daunting, though. I'm gonna have to do more research on where to farm all that rawhide leather and jute. :zzz:

#37 Jokerx7

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostPorkchop Sandwiches, on 30 July 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Wow, so glad I'm not alone in making spread sheets for crafting. I was going to make a spreadsheet for leather crafting, too. Those numbers are a bit daunting, though. I'm gonna have to do more research on where to farm all that rawhide leather and jute. :zzz:
Centaurs. (?)
You get them from bags + salving. And the centaurs drop bags, so...

The harpies and bats were good for blood. :) And moas for claws.
That's what I remember from BWE2. xD

Edited by Jokerx7, 30 July 2012 - 08:48 AM.


#38 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:02 AM

View PostPorkchop Sandwiches, on 30 July 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Wow, so glad I'm not alone in making spread sheets for crafting. I was going to make a spreadsheet for leather crafting, too. Those numbers are a bit daunting, though. I'm gonna have to do more research on where to farm all that rawhide leather and jute. :zzz:

I skipped the spreadsheet and immediately went for the web application (it helps if you're a web application developer :P)  But I never thought about making statistical queries for it...


View PostChalky, on 30 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You should be able to level up your crafting by making a single set of each craftable gear level.  The argument that you will save money by doubling up tiers is just plain wrong - you stop gaining experience for the previous tier at a certain point and you get diminishing returns before that.  I'm not totally sure what the numbers are, but you can't just say "you'll get 1.5 levels per discovery" - half way through the next tier you'll be getting 0 exp per discovery, and you'll have wasted most of your refinement exp that you're going to have to do anyway.

Also you probably want a full set of crafted gear for your character to actually wear of each level.

This is what I did during the second BWE.  I wanted to check some higher level armourcrafting skills.  So, I created one of each set (so, one festering, one healing, one hearty, etc).  I leveled rather quickly that way.  And the items I didn't want to use, I threw in the forge...

#39 Ebony Shadowheart

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:27 AM

Well, at least I'm not alone when it comes to making spreadsheets for my game play. XD That makes me a feel a little better. I'll be doing similarly after launch just because I'll have time.

Also, since no one's mentioned it, that I've seen yet, there is a lettuce farm in Queensdale. Over by Beetletun.

#40 Dasviidonja

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:29 AM

View PostUmThatOneGuy, on 30 July 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

While working on my spreadsheet for leatherworking I came across some interesting numbers. I made a grid of what materials it would take to make every discovery for the first leather type that you can use. There are 3 leather types available in game (so far) rawhide leather, thin leather, and coarse leather.

This list is for rawhide leather only. To discover every known recipe for rawhide leather: boots, gloves, chest, pants, shoulders and helm you need...

300 spools of jute thread
528 scraps of rawhide leather (or 264 stretched leather squares)
336 scraps of jute (or 168 bolts of jute)
48 vials of weak blood
48 tiny venom sacs
48 bone chips
48 tiny totems
48 tiny claws
48 tiny scales.

That's tons of mats and its only for 1 of the 3 known leather types. Expect to see the same number of mats for tailoring and armorsmithing and I would expect at least 1 more leather type if not two.

I can find better gear in the game to wear during play than that ^ stuff. Crafting like in GW1 is going to be a waste of time until you get to the endgame stuff then it MIGHT be profitable. Early game stuff isn't going to be bought though as I'm pretty sure someone will find an exploit around it. ;)

#41 majoho

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:37 AM

View PostUmThatOneGuy, on 30 July 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Cooking is the only crafting discipline that doesn't have the same basic structure as the others.  Gonna be a major pain to do.
But frankly it's the only one that truly can be said to have discoveries, I don't think just using another insignia when crafting is much of a discovery.

--

I'm a hopeless altoholic and completionist in most games so I tend to have all classes/profession and all crafting skills maxed across them, but I'm not sure if it's worth it initially or I should just sell the mats.

Edited by majoho, 30 July 2012 - 10:39 AM.


#42 UmThatOneGuy

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostDasviidonja, on 30 July 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I can find better gear in the game to wear during play than that ^ stuff. Crafting like in GW1 is going to be a waste of time until you get to the endgame stuff then it MIGHT be profitable. Early game stuff isn't going to be bought though as I'm pretty sure someone will find an exploit around it. ;)

Its not about making gear to wear, although you could save some for yourself if you wanted.  Its about learning the recipes in your crafting tab to be able to make them later for profit or just because you want to have them all.

View Postmajoho, on 30 July 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

But frankly it's the only one that truly can be said to have discoveries, I don't think just using another insignia when crafting is much of a discovery.

--

I'm a hopeless altoholic and completionist in most games so I tend to have all classes/profession and all crafting skills maxed across them, but I'm not sure if it's worth it initially or I should just sell the mats.

yes cooking is the only un-structured discovery system, but it is based on actual cooking ingredients.

As for hoarding vs selling mats, I will be selling everything on the first day and pve-ing like mad then day 2 buy mats to craft at a lower price and level crafting.

Edited by UmThatOneGuy, 30 July 2012 - 07:17 PM.


#43 Imaginos

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:06 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 30 July 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Tailoring, for example. 6 gear slots, 6 stat types (x2 for masterworks) - that is 72 discoveries following easy pattern.

Then you have devout set (5 discoveries), bags (3 discoveries) and 7 runes.

That is at least 87 jute discoveries  - if we go by 1.5 levels per discovery, you can get 130 points - if you do your refining before starting with discoveries, jute alone can get you to 155 in tailoring.

That would be a lot of jute, you'd be higher level and able to farm wool at that point and make better gear for yourself, assuming that's something you want to do.

View PostUmThatOneGuy, on 30 July 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Its not about making gear to wear, although you could save some for yourself if you wanted.  Its about learning the recipes in your crafting tab to be able to make them later for profit or just because you want to have them all.

Doubt you'll make much profit on jute items as people will outlevel those very fast. Bags will probably be ok till someone decides to flood the market with them as happened in beta.

Cooking is the only crafting discipline that has a continuously consumable product.

View PostJokerx7, on 30 July 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Centaurs. (?)
You get them from bags + salving. And the centaurs drop bags, so...

The harpies and bats were good for blood. :) And moas for claws.
That's what I remember from BWE2. xD

Centaurs, bandits, humanoid style mobs for leather & jute and some random ingredients through salvaging and drops of things like tiny saddlebags.

#44 UmThatOneGuy

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:40 PM

Its always pretty amazing how many people like to buy low level gear.  when they want to try out a new character or level an alt they have money to spend and will buy multiple pieces or specs to get a little extra power.  Most games where there is an auction house I have found that low and mid level crafted gear sells in high volume.

#45 frags

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:05 AM

View PostUmThatOneGuy, on 30 July 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Its always pretty amazing how many people like to buy low level gear.  when they want to try out a new character or level an alt they have money to spend and will buy multiple pieces or specs to get a little extra power.  Most games where there is an auction house I have found that low and mid level crafted gear sells in high volume.

I have always found MMO economies to be interesting because of how closely they function to the real world. Low -> mid level crafted gear tends to sell most in mmos. Look at a RL example...companies such as Giorgio Armani (their black label line), Gucci, etc make much less money per year than Macys, Walmart, etc because the high volume/low price point stores sell to the vast majority of people at a lower price point, whereas the high end, high price point, low volume stores/companies sell at a much higher price point, but make much less per year because their customer base is a minority and their products are more expensive to make. In the end, Macys sells many more suits at $100-500 than the high end stores at $2500-3000 per suit and subsequently makes much more money per year. You could say the same about Lamborghini or Ferrari or Rolls-Royce v. Honda, Chevrolet, Toyota, etc.

Edit: punctuation mark.

Edited by frags, 31 July 2012 - 01:06 AM.


#46 Testifye

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:09 AM

View PostJokerx7, on 30 July 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Yep, it does. It drops, the higher you are, the less you gain. But you can gain a lot anyway. You can keep gaining exp for lvl25- until around lvl200. Of course, you will gain little exp for discovering a lvl75 item on you lvl200 craft. (I think you will gain from lvl50 things at 200 too) You will gain a lot more for making a lvl175 or 200 item, but any extra experience is welcome.

The concept here is correct, although the math is a little off. From my testing, refinements and components typically give you XP for 25 levels after they're made available to you, while fully crafted items give you XP for 40 levels after you access their subtier. For example, Bronze Ingots and Jute Bolts are refinements that can be made at the very beginning (level 0). You will get XP from them up to and including level 24. At level 25, you gain no XP from them. Meanwhile, tier 1 crafted items will give you XP for 40 levels. So if you're an armorsmith making bronze boots (an item that can be crafted starting at level 0), then you'll get XP up to and including level 39. If you make bronze pauldrons, which aren't available until level 50 (still tier one), you'll get XP from them up to and including level 89.

At level 200, you'll likely be gaining XP from either Tier 3 (levels 150 to 224), sub-tier 3 (levels 200 to 224) components, as well as Tier 3, sub-tier 2 items (which you'll have access to starting at level 175 and will grant you XP through level 214).

That may seem overly complicated but I have faith that the GW2 wiki will soon be inundated with more data on the systems and there will be better ways of explaining it to players.

#47 Jokerx7

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:00 AM

View PostTestifye, on 31 July 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

The concept here is correct, although the math is a little off. From my testing, refinements and components typically give you XP for 25 levels after they're made available to you, while fully crafted items give you XP for 40 levels after you access their subtier. For example, Bronze Ingots and Jute Bolts are refinements that can be made at the very beginning (level 0). You will get XP from them up to and including level 24. At level 25, you gain no XP from them. Meanwhile, tier 1 crafted items will give you XP for 40 levels. So if you're an armorsmith making bronze boots (an item that can be crafted starting at level 0), then you'll get XP up to and including level 39. If you make bronze pauldrons, which aren't available until level 50 (still tier one), you'll get XP from them up to and including level 89.

At level 200, you'll likely be gaining XP from either Tier 3 (levels 150 to 224), sub-tier 3 (levels 200 to 224) components, as well as Tier 3, sub-tier 2 items (which you'll have access to starting at level 175 and will grant you XP through level 214).

That may seem overly complicated but I have faith that the GW2 wiki will soon be inundated with more data on the systems and there will be better ways of explaining it to players.
Are you talking about normal boots or discovering them? Of course, if you already discovered them, you won't get any more experience after something like 40 levels. But discovering items gives you exp for a lot of levels, like 150. I didn't tested until what level they give exp, but it's something like that.
And crafting an item gives a LOT less exp than discovering it.
I'm pretty sure you can get exp from discovering items even if you are 100 levels level above the required level.

Plus, nobody will craft items they already made for experience. o_o It's always discovering. xD

Edited by Jokerx7, 31 July 2012 - 02:02 AM.


#48 Testifye

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:39 AM

View PostJokerx7, on 31 July 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Are you talking about normal boots or discovering them? Of course, if you already discovered them, you won't get any more experience after something like 40 levels. But discovering items gives you exp for a lot of levels, like 150. I didn't tested until what level they give exp, but it's something like that.
And crafting an item gives a LOT less exp than discovering it.
I'm pretty sure you can get exp from discovering items even if you are 100 levels level above the required level.

Plus, nobody will craft items they already made for experience. o_o It's always discovering. xD

It's true that discovering grants the largest boost to XP, especially discovering an item soon after you reach the required level to make it. However, from my understanding, the extra XP you get when you discover an item is exactly 100% of the XP you get from that item normally. So if you discover an item that normally would grant you 1000 XP, you get the normal XP plus a discovery bonus (1000 + 1000 = 2000). I have seen this doubling bonus at every level I've tried discovering items, and it holds true. I will have to re-check what happens when you discover an item far below your current crafting level, but I don't believe it grants you any XP.

Keep in mind that there's also a "critical success" bonus that happens every once in a while. The critical success gives you an extra 50% of the XP you'd get normally from crafting that item. So if you craft an item you've discovered already for 1000 XP AND get a critical success, you'd get an additional +500 XP. This critical success can happen when you discover items too, which means if you discover a normally 1000 XP item, you'd get (1000 + 1000 + 500 = 2500 XP). This can boost you several levels at a time (I think I got boosted 4 levels once when this happened early on).

I kept track of about 250 pieces I crafted in the last BWE, and the critical success happened almost exactly 10% of the time. My server had a +4% chance of critical success during my tests thanks to WvW, but I don't have enough data yet to discern whether that's an additive 4% or a multiplicative 4%. Meaning the critical success could happen 14% of the time (additive) or 10.4% of the time (multiplicative).

You may have noticed I kind of enjoy deciphering these sorts of game mechanics and economies, so I'm sure I'll have a lot more info once the game is fully released!

EDIT: After double-checking the critical success rate I measured, I saw 25 instances of critical success out of 241 crafted pieces (items, components, or refinements). That works out to 10.37%, which is darn close to 10.4%, and leads me to believe the critical success bonus a server gets from WvW is multiplicative.

Edited by Testifye, 31 July 2012 - 03:43 AM.


#49 Traveller

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 10:47 PM

Finding Jute (and trophies) is what's bugging me at the moment. I'm ready to move on to the 15-25 zone but I want to get my crafting at the same level so I can start using the 2nd tier items. In jewellery it's no problem since you find copper EVERYWHERE but jute has definately been a bit harder to come by. I haven't even made all the discoveries I could've due to lack of items (I think I'm at 70 or something, so not that long to go).




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