131 replies to this topic

[Cl1p]

I thought this thread would be about a better tutorial or an introduction vid of the gameplay elements.

What the op suggests is absurd, if people would see all the events they would be finnished before they got there, they would just go from event to event and miss the follow-up and linked events,... it's not even handholding, its ruining the game.
If you suggest this, Im sorry to inform you you dont understand gw2 at all.

[aarka]

Let's give it a go ANet's way. Every time they succumb to the ways of the traditional theame-park to try and please everyone, we get one step closer to another clone.  Those clones sell a bunch of copies in the first month and then fade away and die off when the next game comes along. Personally, I hope years from now that GW2 is still similar to the game we have at launch. Visit any mmo's forums and read how the game "used to be great before." "Vanilla was so much fun." "The game was great pre-xxx expansion." "Before the xxx system was put in".. etc.. etc..

[zosek]

Oduru, on 30 July 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Replace lazy with new and edge with clue and you'll get an idea of how this could actually be a valuable addition to the game.


And I agree with this, it would be a perfect solution if this were only added in the starting zones.

New people? Everybody is new to the game, and yet, some of us got used to the system.

[Victus01]

having every DE shown for you ruins the 'discovery and exploration' aspect of the game which the game is built around. imagine if all puzzles showed the right direction or shows a path to the finish line... just ruins it imo.

if you are in your character's shoes.. information dont travel that handily... rely on luck in being in the right lace at the right time, your friends and network to find dynamic events.. showing dynamic events relatively close to you is enough.

[AstroFM]

I actually think Totalbiscuit said it best in a video "ArenaNet is not afraid to let people miss out on stuff" (something like that). I don't think we're supposed to see all the events, the game is about running around and getting pulled into the game.

[Lurky]

Not needed imo. Sometimes events should fail to change the world. I can't see that happening when every player on the map ports to the waypoint within a heartbeat after a event just kicked in.

[ogrejd]

Matsy, on 30 July 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Your supposed to explore you know...there is no set direction, go anywhere you want, you see something over the hill, you go investigate and ZOMGWTF theres a massive fight going on!, better get your sword and jump in!

Wandering around randomly in the hopes of finding something to do will NOT appeal to the vast majority of players, especially given the size of the zones (even with 15-20 waypoints in each). This will be especially true for people who've done all the Renown Events and reached level 80. (hence why a lot of people have concerns about the "endgame")

[Prokofiova]

aarka, on 30 July 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Let's give it a go ANet's way. Every time they succumb to the ways of the traditional theame-park to try and please everyone, we get one step closer to another clone.  Those clones sell a bunch of copies in the first month and then fade away and die off when the next game comes along. Personally, I hope years from now that GW2 is still similar to the game we have at launch. Visit any mmo's forums and read how the game "used to be great before." "Vanilla was so much fun." "The game was great pre-xxx expansion." "Before the xxx system was put in".. etc.. etc..

Not that I disagree with your greater point (I don't), but the reason people wax nostalgic has more to do with psychology than the state of any particular game.

[Teste]

briktal, on 30 July 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Except most people won't see the thing over the hill..

Between hearts and the big notice saying "New event nearby", someone who does not see the dynamic events is someone who is going out of his way to ignore them. Those features were added to the game to teach people how to play GW2 differently from traditional MMOs. The suggestion from the OP would make people play GW2 like they play traditional MMOs. This would only hurt the game.

Edited by Teste, 30 July 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[ProudPlatypus]

I think there already might be too much, or maybe it’s just the wrong kind of direction. The map marker, the checklists; they very much seem to encourage the wrong behaviour. There are people who, and it’s very easy to get caught up in, going around the map just filling these things in. The hearts in particular I think where the worst edition as they over shadow the main part of the game, the dynamic events. They are why people are having trouble with getting enough XP, and they are why people are currently not realising they often need to stick around for the next part of an event.

I think the hearts need to go, they were supposed to be there to help guide people around the game but they have become a disservice to the game. Instead I think they should have markers that pop up from a further distance away than what happens for the dynamic events. Or maybe all the events in general should have markers that pop up from further away than they currently do, not from all the way across the map though obviously.

[Arduin]

zosek, on 30 July 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

New people? Everybody is new to the game, and yet, some of us got used to the system.

New people who haven't been on Guru for years and haven't devoured every blogpost of Anet. You and I are aware how Anet intends GW2 to be played, but not every player is or will be. I wouldn't mind a few more pointers at the start of the game explaining how the world is set up and how you are expected to approach it. Nothing as excessive as what the OP is suggesting though.

Also, I distinctly remember an answer from a dev on the question why DE's aren't shown mapwide:

-they don't want all people to converge on the same DE and ruin the scaling of the event
-the time it takes you between you seeing a DE and actually getting there could be so big that as soon as you get at the place the DE is present, it could be over already.

Can't find the source on this, sadly.

[Oduru]

zosek, on 30 July 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

New people? Everybody is new to the game, and yet, some of us got used to the system.

You were new? Really? You didn't know anything about Dynamic Events/Renown Hearts or how they worked when you first logged into beta? Because there will be a lot of new players like that come release. And how are they supposed to learn to play and enjoy the game? By putting as much time into researching, fantasizing and speculating about the game as much as most of you did?

I just can't get over how incredibly arrogant most of the people in this thread sound and how hell-bent you all seem on excluding clueless, new players from learning to enjoy a game you all love and want to succeed so much.

And no, I'm not for handholding and spoonfeeding all the way to 80. I just think it's a good idea to give a better idea of how the Renown Hearts and Dynamic Events tie in with eachother without the new players getting discouraged by running around clueless and abandoning a game they might have enjoyed a lot more if some function in the game would have pointed out how it was meant to be played.

[Volkon]

Nah. GW2 isn't about finding all the events. It's about the events finding you.

[Aidunno]

ogrejd, on 30 July 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Wandering around randomly in the hopes of finding something to do will NOT appeal to the vast majority of players, especially given the size of the zones (even with 15-20 waypoints in each). This will be especially true for people who've done all the Renown Events and reached level 80. (hence why a lot of people have concerns about the "endgame")

Those people are likely to simply go to a wiki which I am sure will have all the information needed to skip through the content at speed leading to the "wheres the new content" questions.

[Linfang]

Join a group of friends or Guildmates doing the same zone and so you can tip eac other off to whats going on.

[sty0pa]

tibbles777, on 30 July 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I see that a lot of people are having a hard time adjusting to the exploration needed to find events in Guild Wars 2 and it's putting them off.

Personally... easy option.. Show ALL dynamic events going on in your current zone via the map.. Have an option to turn this feature off for people who don't want it?

In my opinion there would be nothing wrong with this feature as people have the option!

It would stop some people moaning, it would give player more direction and it will help people close that level gap!

FWIW I think people in the BWEs were approaching the game entirely differently than they will in release.  At least I was - in the BWEs I was in a hurry to see a number of different things, explore basic systems, etc.  In release, my pacing and approach will revert to my usual for MMOs - much more methodical and thorough.

And, um, why do we care about 'closing that level gap'?  What level gap, when higher levels are downleveled and can play anywhere?

[Arshay Duskbrow]

No thanks. There's more than enough distractions without that. Also, this feature wouldn't necessarily help you, because even if you can see DEs happening on the other side of a map, by the time you ran over there, it would very probably be over.

[Lord_Demosthene]

The 'checklist' mentality is the very thing that has hold the genre back for so long. Unfortunately, all kinds of daily/seasonal/one-time achievements, titles and ranks do not help this issue, but make it significantly worse. All the game needs for healthy competition is PvP ladder and sponsored tournaments. Titles and achievements only coerce people into diluted, artificial way of playing the game, focusing on numbers showing up and not fun derived from the game, or actual skill development.

I'm not sure it will go away this easily or at all, however, seeing as Anet fallen for the same trap exactly, as countless MMO developers before them. It may be, that people are simply obsessed with comparing themselves to others and playing the socio-economic game even in their hobbies, showing off superficial signs of status and prestige. A bit funny how people claim to escape from real life in computer games, and yet play computer games with the same, deeply ingrained 'rules' just because the game is multiplayer.

The best bit is when individuals openly claim it's not the case, and then do the exact same thing in the game without even realising it. Or admitting it. Probably both, sometimes ego needs to defend itself from the common sense.

tl'dr

The more you expect the game to hold you by hand and show 'optimal' ways of content consumption or personal progress, the less unique, interesting and varied satisfying game experience will be. It's a problem not limited to just game design, but how people react when other people are around, regardless of the medium of communication.

Edited by Lord_Demosthene, 30 July 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[briktal]

Teste, on 30 July 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Between hearts and the big notice saying "New event nearby", someone who does not see the dynamic events is someone who is going out of his way to ignore them. Those features were added to the game to teach people how to play GW2 differently from traditional MMOs. The suggestion from the OP would make people play GW2 like they play traditional MMOs. This would only hurt the game.

I'm not saying they won't see or do dynamic events, but they are unlikely to come across any of the "out of the way" events without a little bit of nudging off the "path."

[Massive Jawbone]

tibbles777, on 30 July 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I see that a lot of people are having a hard time adjusting to the exploration needed to find events in Guild Wars 2 and it's putting them off.
Personally... easy option.. Show ALL dynamic events going on in your current zone via the map.. Have an option to turn this feature off for people who don't want it?

In my opinion there would be nothing wrong with this feature as people have the option!
It would stop some people moaning, it would give player more direction and it will help people close that level gap!

What happened to LEARNING and PATIENCE?
When did PC gamers become toddlers that need handfeeding and training wheels?

Make every projectile attack auto hit so we don't have to aim anymore! Take line-of-sight out of the game so we don't miss attacks anymore! Put all skills on the screen so we don't have to select skills from a menu anymore! Put mounts in the game so we don't have to run anywhere anymore!

Call the game World of Warcraft  'cause I can't remember this other title with the Guild in it!

Edited by Massive Jawbone, 30 July 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[MasterDinadan]

What would happen is that any time a popular event pops up, the entire zone would head there and zerg it. ANet deliberately sets the range of the event broadcast to try to draw in an appropriate number of players depending on who is already nearby.
The other issue is that if they broadcast an event too far away, it will likely be over or nearly over by the time you arrive, which is frustrating for the player.

[Akula]

Threads like these certainly show the effects of social engineering done by most game developers. Amazes me how many people are so afraid of having to figure stuff out themselves in games, or MMOs at least. Whatever happened to putting effort into this stuff.

Guild Wars 2 is, for the most part, a lot like a sandbox RPG with a multiplayer aspect. The game rewards you for simply playing it, this cannot be stressed enough. There are no set goals, no plans, but there is freedom, so just go and do. A giant world is waiting to be explored and yet people want to have some sort of tour guide accompany them? How disappointing.

If people are stuck in the "hold my hand" mindset while playing MMOs and cannot adapt to these new concepts, that's their problem not ArenaNet's. Everything you need to know about this game is either on the wiki or shown through tutorial tips in-game, paying attention is key. Providing more direction will start with something small like an actual tutorial but what if that's not enough for these "new players"? One day we might have quest givers, because Dynamic Events are supposedly way too hard to understand. This whole adding more help/tutorials/direction thing will make Guild Wars 2 become more and more like the standard which goes completely against what ArenaNet wants.

Besides, these are core concepts of this game. If this isn't something one wants then this might not be the game for them. Trying to please everyone is a sure way to failure. Either deal with it or don't, we all do.

[Lunacy Polish]

I consider myself a pretty dense player ;-)

And even I figured out all you have to do is just roam from one area to the next and DEs just sort of happen.  I think it works as is.

[Eowin]

A couple things.  I think the system is fine as is, however a tutorial video explaining the system for new players might be something that the game could benefit from. (It would of course, be skippable).  Or, even a small tutorial area like they have for the mists when you first go in. I don't want hand holding, or direction- but a tutorial could be beneficial for new players- and perhaps even stop some of the fundamental misunderstandings that people seem to have about this game.

As far as marking each DE on the map- honestly- this would not be a good idea.  If you are close enough you can already see some of them marked.  Also, the point is to explore- between hearts, POI's and viewpoints- you should be able to find sufficient DE's to level.

Some of the onus is also on the community.  Those of us who understand the mechanics really need to stop with the "go back to WoW" mentality and be more helpful.  The game is vastly different- although this can seem deceptive at first glance as systems are similar.

[Filthyn]

I don't think more direction is necessary, you have to remember "finding" out things on your own, is actually a part of the game :-) I'm also pretty sure, that many websites will provide all locations on online maps after releases and etc.

[Bulldog]

I heard Wooden Potates say much the same thing, and I have to disagree wholeheartedly.  I understand that some people feel the need to be hand held but seriously where do you stop?   Imho requests like this starts to create a dependancy on Anet to tell players everything.  The game is meant to be explored, to discover new lands and meet new people, not have a check list.  I personally would rather the scouts in the starter zones explain the basics of what DE's are how they work and where a few may be located, and then tell people to get out and explore.  

Edited by Bulldog, 30 July 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[PoisonedTea]

I don't think New players will have a issue
It is the old MMO players that have an issue.

New player won't know what's going on the will just be existed finding stuff

I think the new players that don't play much games will have great fun.
More then the players who think they know everything.

[Tallenn]

I would have preferred this idea to the hearts, honestly. Hearts are one of the few things in GW2 that I find to be not worthy of the rest of the game.

That said, hearts are what ANet decided to go with, so for better or worse, that's what we got.

[Shiren]

Sleepyx732, on 30 July 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Shall I be the first to say..

"Please, no more hand holding."

??

You're certainly not the first to support a game design which results in a less successful game. The recent betas have had a very poor tutorial system. With a game which makes so many dramatic changes to the format, informing your players and guiding them through the world much more thoroughly than they have done in the starting areas is going to be key to how successful the game will be with more casual audiences. MMOs lose most of their players in the first hour of gameplay, if people are still struggling to make use of core systems in the game (dynamic events) after the first eight hours you have a huge problem.

Maybe I be not the first to ask that people be more aware of what results in a better game experience for everyone (especially in starter areas) and that helping identify problems a lot of people are having and posting constructive feedback is a lot better than ignoring the problems and putting down the ones shared by others because you personally didn't experience them?

[majoho]

Sevens, on 30 July 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

This is not a new concept...its an old concept taht got replaced! when I logged into EQ1 the first time I had my starting weapon, a tunic and food and water and that was about it....there was no quest markers and noting to tell you where to go or what to do, that was all up to the player

No need to lecture me, I'm an oldschool RPG gamer - but really GW2 isn't even like oldschool RPG or EQ, talking to random people won't really do anything so your comparison is poor.

As I said I'm fine with the way it is, and as with anything new it's just a matter of getting used to it.

Edited by majoho, 30 July 2012 - 01:32 PM.