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Lowell's Ultimate sPvP Thief Guide [W.I.P]


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#61 NiMROD

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

Thanks for an awesome guide, just switched from ele to thief, because my team needed it. :)

#62 Khdrajal

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:15 PM

I realized in your video that you were not using Dancing daggers as often as I saw fit with my very little and humble knowledge.
I know you were mobile enough to not be able to have to use DD in order to catch the player up or use it as an escaping tool. but I find that when running a D/D build I was just not confident enough to go in without the person being crippled.

I just felt that whilst I was strifing and moving in and out I felt naked if the person I was targetting wasn't crippled. Even as an opener of a fight I use DD and from then on whatever happens I follow up e.g After crippling I wait to see if the person tries to remove if not I go in and do a quick combo till I finish off the person.

Is it a personal preference that you do not use it? Because in a game like Guild Wars I just feel that what will seperate the best from the good is the ability to use all of your skills efficiently and to further yourself in terms of advantage like a game of chess where within 1 skill you allowed yourself to overcome the opponent which you excel at.

I just saw that and maybe you could enlighten me as to why you didn't use it and in what possible situation you'd have used it.

#63 Lowell

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:06 PM

View PostCKABEH 3BEPOB, on 04 August 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Very nice post Lowell, enjoyed reading it. Some nice tips, since Thief is my main, and will be played for a loooooooooong time.

I would love to recommend awesome kiting ( if necessary ) combo: Inf. Arrow x2, Shadowstep, 180 turn, Roll for Ini., 180 turn, 2x Inf. Arrow. I love to see enemy just stand half mile away cursing for his target that just escaped their doooom :D

Same thing i use for long runs in WvW, for a speedy cover of large portions of the territory.

I didn't think about posting pre-made combos because I usually adapt instead of doing something "scripted" (my wording may not be the best there is). However, I have to admit that some are really nasty if you can pull them, so I'll add a section for that =)

View PostAnelyn, on 04 August 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Very nice guide!



A quick question: if you use D/D as 2nd weapon set, and a warrior BR frenzy 100B on you (let's say for the sake of argument that you are out of endurance and all utility skills are on CD) if you use death blossom would you evade 100B damage? (I simply could not find a warrior willing to do the combo on me during the last stress test).

Yes, you'd avoid it! If you do it before the Bull's charge hits you of course.

View PostAkhullad, on 04 August 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Is it a personal preference that you do not use it? Because in a game like Guild Wars I just feel that what will seperate the best from the good is the ability to use all of your skills efficiently and to further yourself in terms of advantage like a game of chess where within 1 skill you allowed yourself to overcome the opponent which you excel at.

I just saw that and maybe you could enlighten me as to why you didn't use it and in what possible situation you'd have used it.

It's mostly a mistake on my side I'd say. The problem is that it often gets "obstructed" even when there's nothing in the way, so I kinda lost the habit to use it. Using it is definitly better than not, especially when there are combo fields around =)

Edited by Lowell, 04 August 2012 - 11:08 PM.


#64 Tyridius

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:51 PM

This is all I have to say ...

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#65 frags

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:09 AM

Nice guide, Lowell! Though, the "Click Here!" links do not seem to be functioning.

#66 Lowell

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:20 AM

Thanks! It looks like the problem comes from their website. It should be fixed soon, I hope so at least.

#67 Decently_Evil

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:32 AM

Thanks for the awesome guide!
I was wondering if you could give me a little bit of feedback on my build. I went for more direct damage and power (i know venom build would probably be better but i wanted to try something different)
Weapon sets: Shortbow, Dagger/Pistol
Utilities: Withdraw, Spider Venom, Signet of Shadows, Shadowstep. Elite: Thieves guild
Traits:
    Deadly Arts (25): Mug, Potent Poison
    Acrobatics (15): Vigorous recovery
    Trickery (30): Thrill of Crime, Bountiful Theft, Hastened Replenishment
Amulet: Berserker. Jewel: Knight's. Runes: Divinity

Stats: 2.1k power, 1.6k prec, 3.1k attack, 17k health, 2040 defence. 37% crit, 33% crit damage.

Considering that the poison also causes weakness (lotus poison) and restricts healing is it viable to use it in my build with only 300 condition damage?
This build doesn't use hide in shadows b/c of the buffs i get with my heal (4 ini, vigor) every time i heal and withdraw only has a 15 sec cooldown. Very little stealth actually.
Very good mobility in my opinion... (almost constant vigor, feline grace, shadowsteps, 25% movement speed with signet of shadows)

Anyways i apologize for my long post...

#68 frags

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:45 AM

View PostLowell, on 05 August 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Thanks! It looks like the problem comes from their website. It should be fixed soon, I hope so at least.

Indeed, just happened to my Necro's build on the same site.

Concerning weapon sets, what are your thoughts on P/P coupled with P/D instead of the Shortbow. I played P/P + P/D up until the end of BWE2 and the bleed/condition build was effective in a roaming capacity in tournies. Keep in mind, my main is a Necro so I not up to snuff, so to speak, with the Thief. I tend to look at two sets in a cost benefit analysis and P/P brings a daze, blind (through the combo field of Black Powder), and damage/venom application through the Unload. On its face, Shortbow would seem to offer more based on your analysis, though I am interested in your thoughts on the set. Another thought would be P/P + Shortbow. In the end and as a discussion point, does P/P bring enough mechanically (buffs may occur but I say mechanically since the skills will likely not change too much) where you would consider swapping it in for P/D or Shortbow in a Venom share build?

#69 redefinedmix

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:32 AM

umm i like your builds haha but just a few questions... If i Do ambush and Thieves guild will i get 3 thieves npcs? HAHA

Is Skale Venom worth it to have in a venom build?

#70 Smellyead

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:35 AM

View Postredefinedmix, on 05 August 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

umm i like your builds haha but just a few questions... If i Do ambush and Thieves guild will i get 3 thieves npcs? HAHA

Is Skale Venom worth it to have in a venom build?

Yes, you'll get 3. Although if you're like me and randomly lay down that trap when roaming, you'll randomly see a thief pop up and you can then end up with 4 sometimes - If you use another trap while it's active.

#71 Blowi

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 11:02 AM

Great guide, keep it up friend ;)
Youtube Channel - I'll be uploading GW2 & League of Legends videos.
How to Mesmer - A guide which takes you through everything about mesmer in sPvP.

#72 Esxi

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 11:36 AM

Hi,

Before I found this guide I was looking at some excessive mobility builds. The player in the videos seems to consistently achieve high scores for his team and performs the roaming role well.




Having read your guide (and thank you it was very helpful)  it seems evident that venom aura builds are superior in tournament play, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on this build in a tournament environment, presumably it doesn't offer enough support for other players?

Thanks.

#73 Faded913

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:14 PM

View PostEsxi, on 05 August 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Hi,

Before I found this guide I was looking at some excessive mobility builds. The player in the videos seems to consistently achieve high scores for his team and performs the roaming role well.




Having read your guide (and thank you it was very helpful)  it seems evident that venom aura builds are superior in tournament play, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on this build in a tournament environment, presumably it doesn't offer enough support for other players?

Thanks.

ive seen these videos many times, he is very very skilled player but this build offers very little 'team' oriented play and team venom sharing which is extremely powerful. I think the only team trait he has is thrill of the crime. And you can also see that his dps is a bit low but its a great solo/pug build probably and if you're this skilled you can probably make any build work.

#74 RawNG

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:30 PM

hey nice post about thieves, never looked into a venom build during the BWEs.  instead i ran s/p d/d and ran this spec and gear set up http://gw2skills.net...TunkPtEZIymjJHA
was getting 7k+ crits with pistol whip and heartseeker (on targets below 33%)  i found this build to be very good, i was able to pump out some serious dmg while maintaining my effectiveness in evading and staying alive.

another thing i was having tons of fun with was using scorp wire and tripwire, lay down the trip wire and pull the target into it and blow them up with pistol whip. you can throw in the haste utility skill and its real OP, pretty much kill the person if they arent already dead by then lol.  i did well in 1v1s and group fights, i have a good amount of HP with this spec and i dont take to much dmg unless more then 1 person decides to get on me.  i have a very high crit multiplier also.

let me know what you guys think

Edited by RawNG, 05 August 2012 - 06:35 PM.


#75 Lowell

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:49 PM

I'll update the post later with almost viable builds!

View PostDecently_Evil, on 05 August 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

Thanks for the awesome guide!
I was wondering if you could give me a little bit of feedback on my build. I went for more direct damage and power (i know venom build would probably be better but i wanted to try something different)
Weapon sets: Shortbow, Dagger/Pistol
Utilities: Withdraw, Spider Venom, Signet of Shadows, Shadowstep. Elite: Thieves guild
Traits:
Deadly Arts (25): Mug, Potent Poison
Acrobatics (15): Vigorous recovery
Trickery (30): Thrill of Crime, Bountiful Theft, Hastened Replenishment
Amulet: Berserker. Jewel: Knight's. Runes: Divinity

Stats: 2.1k power, 1.6k prec, 3.1k attack, 17k health, 2040 defence. 37% crit, 33% crit damage.

Considering that the poison also causes weakness (lotus poison) and restricts healing is it viable to use it in my build with only 300 condition damage?
This build doesn't use hide in shadows b/c of the buffs i get with my heal (4 ini, vigor) every time i heal and withdraw only has a 15 sec cooldown. Very little stealth actually.
Very good mobility in my opinion... (almost constant vigor, feline grace, shadowsteps, 25% movement speed with signet of shadows)

Anyways i apologize for my long post...

The build is good, I simply wouldnt run spider venom and shadow's signet, there are better options because you have access to a lot of poison on shortbow and you have perma swiftness with your points in acrobatics.


View Postfrags, on 05 August 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

Indeed, just happened to my Necro's build on the same site.

Concerning weapon sets, what are your thoughts on P/P coupled with P/D instead of the Shortbow. I played P/P + P/D up until the end of BWE2 and the bleed/condition build was effective in a roaming capacity in tournies. Keep in mind, my main is a Necro so I not up to snuff, so to speak, with the Thief. I tend to look at two sets in a cost benefit analysis and P/P brings a daze, blind (through the combo field of Black Powder), and damage/venom application through the Unload. On its face, Shortbow would seem to offer more based on your analysis, though I am interested in your thoughts on the set. Another thought would be P/P + Shortbow. In the end and as a discussion point, does P/P bring enough mechanically (buffs may occur but I say mechanically since the skills will likely not change too much) where you would consider swapping it in for P/D or Shortbow in a Venom share build?

I wouldn't play without shortbow as a roamer, the shortcuts are simply too good.

As for P/P, I think stealth is key in the build and the stealth skill from pistol main hand feels just stronger than Unload :(


View PostEsxi, on 05 August 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Having read your guide (and thank you it was very helpful)  it seems evident that venom aura builds are superior in tournament play, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on this build in a tournament environment, presumably it doesn't offer enough support for other players?

Once again, it's a good build, but Ele and Warrior are just better. I'll add some of those builds in the guide tonight! =)


View PostRawNG, on 05 August 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

hey nice post about thieves, never looked into a venom build during the BWEs.  instead i ran s/p d/d and ran this spec and gear set up http://gw2skills.net...TunkPtEZIymjJHA
was getting 7k+ crits with pistol whip and heartseeker (on targets below 33%)  i found this build to be very good, i was able to pump out some serious dmg while maintaining my effectiveness in evading and staying alive.

another thing i was having tons of fun with was using scorp wire and tripwire, lay down the trip wire and pull the target into it and blow them up with pistol whip. you can throw in the haste utility skill and its real OP, pretty much kill the person if they arent already dead by then lol.  i did well in 1v1s and group fights, i have a good amount of HP with this spec and i dont take to much dmg unless more then 1 person decides to get on me.  i have a very high crit multiplier also.

let me know what you guys think

Same thing as the other one! Except that I really wouldn't play without a Shortbow in a competitive environment, not right now at least.


View PostBlowi, on 05 August 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Great guide, keep it up friend ;)

Thanks man!

*Gets back to work*

#76 thepostman

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:43 PM

Have you tried out any P/P weakness builds? I was using one looking like this on BWE3 and it seemed pretty insane damage wise, routinely hitting 6-7K unload crits, not much team support though.

Edited by thepostman, 05 August 2012 - 07:43 PM.


#77 RawNG

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:25 PM

View PostLowell, on 05 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Same thing as the other one! Except that I really wouldn't play without a Shortbow in a competitive environment, not right now at least.
idk i find playing with a ranged weap boring and dull, im all about melee :P but i dont plan on picking something up either just because people view it as the only viable spec, never been that person.  i know a good player can pick up any spec and make it just as good as another spec.  its all about the player and playstyle.  its a little unfair and misleading to say this is the only viable way to play a thief for tpvp.  i mean i move 25% faster, have shadowstep.. i can get from point A to point B in a few seconds and i can get out easily.  i do ass loads of dmg, hard to kill, and sure as hell piss people off.   you just gotta know your class and spec to get it working, all specs are viable.

#78 LUDAK987654

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:43 PM

Hm ,how come u didn't incorporate  ambush trap in any of your build,just by ditching one venom u practically get double effect on other 2.

Im not a big fan of "shared" build as u call them  or even venom cause i find best synergy venom has is with signet of malice which is nerfed at the moment and i dont like that  shadow art  trait line, prety much  useless first tier imho

so i dont have much experience with that kind of game play,just  thinking that would be more efficient.

#79 Gaaroth

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:55 PM

Heya Lowell!
First of all my gratz on this guide! It's pretty amazing! I'm finishing also my little personal guide on thief which is mostly tips/secrets: maybe i can pass that to u and look if we can add something to urs, that's going to be a very complete one.

I really liked the "thoughts" on the thief, the mindset and roles, spent some words on my guide too.
I pretty  much share ur opinion on thief as roamer so i ask u this: i know that venom build+steal buff give good buff to ur team  (i used such setup in BWE3 i felt a bit OP)but being a roamer, backcapping points and help in fights on demand, i find myself more confortable in a high damage+vitality/toughtness setup.
U know, u can take solo a point, drop a shadow trap, go help team in a fight, teleport back and solo defend that point...something like that.
What i'm trying to say: yeah ele/warrs maybe can be better damage dealers but they cannot roam as us ad be virtually everywhere in the map. maximize our roamer role and being able to sustain solo secondary battle that can be vital (anyone heard ambush+thieves guild?): dont u think that just THAT makes 90% or more of our utility to a group? why don't maximize that?

Edited by Gaaroth, 05 August 2012 - 10:55 PM.


#80 Lowell

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 11:28 PM

View Postthepostman, on 05 August 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Have you tried out any P/P weakness builds? I was using one looking like this on BWE3 and it seemed pretty insane damage wise, routinely hitting 6-7K unload crits, not much team support though.

Unfortunately, you're not going to pull those numbers on a team with tougness :( And unload is extremly easy to interrupt / reflect. There's a looooot of reflects / projectile breakers.


View PostRawNG, on 05 August 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

idk i find playing with a ranged weap boring and dull, im all about melee :P but i dont plan on picking something up either just because people view it as the only viable spec, never been that person.  i know a good player can pick up any spec and make it just as good as another spec.  its all about the player and playstyle.  its a little unfair and misleading to say this is the only viable way to play a thief for tpvp.  i mean i move 25% faster, have shadowstep.. i can get from point A to point B in a few seconds and i can get out easily.  i do ass loads of dmg, hard to kill, and sure as hell piss people off.   you just gotta know your class and spec to get it working, all specs are viable.

I wish you were right, but you're not. It's not the only viable way, it's the only viable way that makes bringing a thief over something else worth it. You don't move 25% faster, swiftness + shadow's signet do not stack. In a fight that is a 3v3 or more, you're virtually useless. I mean, it can seem amazingly good to you when playing against clueless people, because they don't know how to deal with your build, but with another profession you could do BETTER against people who are NOT clueless. That's my point.


View PostLUDAK987654, on 05 August 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Hm ,how come u didn't incorporate  ambush trap in any of your build,just by ditching one venom u practically get double effect on other 2.

Im not a big fan of "shared" build as u call them  or even venom cause i find best synergy venom has is with signet of malice which is nerfed at the moment and i dont like that  shadow art  trait line, prety much  useless first tier imho

so i dont have much experience with that kind of game play,just  thinking that would be more efficient.

I wrote a small paragraph about it, but I find it just waaaay too strong to be used right now. I mean, if there is 1 thing that will almost certainly be nerfed on Thief, it's the sharing on ambush and thieves' guild. That's the ONLY reason why I'm not putting it in every build =)


View PostGaaroth, on 05 August 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Heya Lowell!
First of all my gratz on this guide! It's pretty amazing! I'm finishing also my little personal guide on thief which is mostly tips/secrets: maybe i can pass that to u and look if we can add something to urs, that's going to be a very complete one.

I really liked the "thoughts" on the thief, the mindset and roles, spent some words on my guide too.
I pretty  much share ur opinion on thief as roamer so i ask u this: i know that venom build+steal buff give good buff to ur team  (i used such setup in BWE3 i felt a bit OP)but being a roamer, backcapping points and help in fights on demand, i find myself more confortable in a high damage+vitality/toughtness setup.
U know, u can take solo a point, drop a shadow trap, go help team in a fight, teleport back and solo defend that point...something like that.
What i'm trying to say: yeah ele/warrs maybe can be better damage dealers but they cannot roam as us ad be virtually everywhere in the map. maximize our roamer role and being able to sustain solo secondary battle that can be vital (anyone heard ambush+thieves guild?): dont u think that just THAT makes 90% or more of our utility to a group? why don't maximize that?

Hey man, looking forward to reading your guide!

The main problem with shadow trap is the area it covers. If I'm playing against a thief, I will get to the capture point using unlogical ways, and stand in a corner while capturing it. You see what I mean?

To make "sure" that your trap will be activated, you need a teamfight to happen on the point where you set it up. And who's going to be the first person on the point? Who's going to be there to start the fight? You, unless you were on the complete opposite side of the map, and the trap wouldn't teleport you if it were activated from that far :(

Oh and without initiative regen traits, even with perma swiftness, a warrior with 1H sword + 2H sword will move faster than you with a shortbow, unless you can take some shortbow shortcuts.



On a side note, I've been dealing with some IRL drama today, so I need to postpone the update until tomorrow, sorry =(

Edited by Lowell, 05 August 2012 - 11:30 PM.


#81 ObliviousPrime

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 11:43 PM

Great guide. Thank you very much.

#82 Fayne

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:10 AM

View PostNuclearDonut, on 02 August 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

It broke my heart to see Teldo get rocked so many times. Damn you Lowell! Great guide btw, kind of sucks that the only viable builds are venom-related.

I REALLLY hope that this changes by launch.  I would like to think that there is more than one viable build for meta for every class in teh game, depending on team composition.

Having just one really viable build in meta pvp is really lame.  I don't particularly like the playstyle that goes with venom and if the thief class remains as dependant on them as it is now I'll likely roll something else.

#83 NuclearDonut

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:51 AM

View PostFayne, on 06 August 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

I REALLLY hope that this changes by launch.  I would like to think that there is more than one viable build for meta for every class in teh game, depending on team composition.

Having just one really viable build in meta pvp is really lame.  I don't particularly like the playstyle that goes with venom and if the thief class remains as dependant on them as it is now I'll likely roll something else.
Your speaking to an ex-Thief, preaching to the choir my friend. I wanted to roll a mobility/roamer/blind Thief, but the build was so lackluster compared to Engineer and Elementalist. They could do exactly what I could and much much more. I am now maining an Engineer, I gave up on Thief.

#84 Lowell

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:23 AM

Don't give up on thief before release!

It will hopefully be good!!

#85 ZudetGambeous

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:24 AM

Do teleports function differently in PvP then PvE? in BWE3 teleports could no longer be used to teleport across gaps in PvE.

#86 Ausy

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:30 AM

View PostZudetGambeous, on 06 August 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Do teleports function differently in PvP then PvE? in BWE3 teleports could no longer be used to teleport across gaps in PvE.
I believe it functions in both like this :- If you can't walk there, i.e. the systems pathing can't find a route for an npc to get to the teleportation position you've selected the teleport fails.

#87 Lowell

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:39 AM

Depends on what kind of gaps you're talking about I guess?

I can at least think of gaps that you can cross in the Legacy map.

#88 LUDAK987654

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 02:00 AM

Oh i found it,somehow i missed that paragraph,

That is very powerful combination  and im afraid that will get  cd-nerfed,on the other hand is a bit tricky to trigger it, i just jump over traps and i noticed most ppl avoid them to, if not on cap point.

I had thoughts about abandoning thief also,but i still have hopes they will fix some things(just  signet of malice on hit nerf  ,as i see it we are only profession who doesn't benefit from compassion,and that will suffice...for the beginning)

Edited by LUDAK987654, 06 August 2012 - 02:01 AM.


#89 RawNG

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 02:39 AM

ok well ill give you the benefit of the doubt that youre right, but for the player like me that doesnt want a short bow.. is there something youd suggest that revolves around poisons like these specs but without short bow?  is it possible for d/d sword/p to work with these specs?  i understand that it might not be the best but i guess what im getting at is how beneficial are the specs you listed for my weap set up and would it be played similar?

#90 Lowell

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 03:22 AM

I'd say that everything is good with venoms!

It won't be the best option, but it will still be good.

Don't get me wrong, melee builds based on power/crit aren't necessarly bad and they are a looooooooooooooot more fun to play, they're just not as good as other options (be it hybrid/ranged weapon sets on thief or other professions). At release, even if there is absolutely no changes to thief, I will play melee builds most of the time. I hate playing venoms, I'd only play it when there is something very important on the line.




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