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instance loot pug sharing

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#1 Rukiachan

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:16 PM

In other games, we are used to pug people to fill the requeriments to do a instance run and it usually resulted on people sharing loot for those who are in need of better gear, mostly because when it droped, the entire party could see the loot, so it was easy to share it between themselves.

That's not the case on GW2, the game makes the loot availble to only one person and no one else knows what it drops. I don't have a problem with that, since on the end of run, you will get at least a piece of a item that you can use, but what to do with those you can't? Being with friends, it would be a no-brainer to tell them that you droped a item that they might want to use, but, what if it's a complete stranger? Would you link the item and ask if he wants it or sell it all together?


Sorry if there's a topic on this subject, I did a search, but I couldn't find it.

#2 Rashy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:20 PM

I certainly would ask them, at the very least. If nobody in the PUG needs/wants it, I'll save it for a friend or salvage/sell it.

#3 Fumbler

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:55 PM

It's as easy as what you described.  If you feel so inclined, you may ask if others might need an item that dropped that you have no use for.  That's as far as it needs to go.  There is no requirement to do so (and neither should there be).  Players have a right to do whatever they want with said item drops.

Displaying the items for all to see only serves to create hostility and animosity amongst players.  It's really no one's business what someone else got unlness they themselves feel the need to share that information.

#4 Linfang

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:58 PM

Stranger or not, that is a person in your group contributed to gaining that loot, so in all fairness unwanted loot should be given to others in that party who could use it.

Edited by Linfang, 01 August 2012 - 01:58 PM.


#5 Feralz

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

reading your post, I doubt you have played Diablo3 which is exactly the same system.
people can be suprisingly generous, mostly if they cant use it themselves and its not one of the rarest ones.

#6 majoho

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

View PostLinfang, on 01 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Stranger or not, that is a person in your group contributed to gaining that loot, so in all fairness unwanted loot should be given to others in that party who could use it.
Honestly I don't hope it will become a trend that you have to link your drops so other people can ask for it.

I prefer to keep my loot to sell on the auction house or give to alts.

#7 Copperpot

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostLinfang, on 01 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Stranger or not, that is a person in your group contributed to gaining that loot, so in all fairness unwanted loot should be given to others in that party who could use it.

I'm all for being nice and all, but how is that fair if you get something that you too worked hard for? Someone else could use it sure, but you could also sell it for gold, after all, that person who worked with you has a piece of his own armour that he will surely sell off to pad his pockets.
This being said. I will happily help anyone I group with simply because I refuse to let this game become overrun with jerks, and I'm just that kinda guy.

View Postmajoho, on 01 August 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Honestly I don't hope it will become a trend that you have to link your drops so other people can ask for it.

I prefer to keep my loot to sell on the auction house or give to alts.

Haha! I would love someone to try and make me link things I didn't want to. That's a fast way to the ignore list IMO.

#8 Sebyos

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

I got a dungeon experience of only 2 runs of story mode and 1 of explorable, but I think I can say you shouldn't be worried. Without even having to tell anyone to share, the strangers I was with automatically linked their good items after a boss so we could trade.

If it doesn't work you can be the first the link it and people will understand and follow I'm pretty sure.

#9 Magicfork

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:26 PM

No one should be obligated to do this, the loot is instanced for a reason. However, I always give people stuff I find if I have no use for it, and for free of course. If my current group doesn't want it then I'll ask friends or link the item in map chats.

I rarely sell things on auction houses, but when I do I'm that guy who undercuts your prices by 50%.

Spoiler


#10 PhoenixFlare

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:42 PM

In the three BWEs that I've been, people are generally very generous. I don't know how it becomes like that, but it seems sort of natural, somehow. People (and certainly yours truly as well) have linked items (including greens) that they don't want into /map when exploring and /party chat in dungeons for others that may want them and gifting them with no strings attached.

[For dungeons, it might've been because there have been runs where no one gets better upgrades and others get mostly whites, so helping others gear up didn't seem too alien a concept. :P]

Was there a cost that should've been charged? Maybe. Was it obligatory? Certainly not. It is definitely up to your prerogative whether you want to choose to benefit yourself or others. What's in it for you if you choose the latter? Nothing, except the good, warm, fuzzy feeling inside you that tells you that you have tried making the community a better place.

#11 Yawg

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:03 PM

Generous people in BWEs when we don't get to keep our stuff was to be expected. But post release, what if I get something nice that I can't use during a PuG dungeon run? I can link the item in party chat, get someone interested reply, but then NO WAY TO TRADE!
I still don't get why Anet can't get the most basic feature present in every single online rpg, there's absolutely no reason why not to include a direct p2p trade interface. People in random PuGs can't be 100% trusted so trading by mail is out of question (also scammers paradise).

#12 Pipples

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostRukiachan, on 01 August 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Would you link the item and ask if he wants it or sell it all together?

I would think dungeon loot is BoP and couldn't be resold
Also, when you hit the end of a MMO most people are either bored or run the same dungeons 30+ times so, eventually, everyone is bound to get what they're after

#13 Teste

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:15 PM

In GW2, group instances are used for dungeons. In dungeons, the most important item isn't random loot dropped from enemies, rather the tokens given as a reward for dungeon completition. Since everyone in the group gets those and they can be used to get the kind of item the player wants, the concern in the OP here doesn't really applies to GW2.

View PostYawg, on 01 August 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

I still don't get why Anet can't get the most basic feature present in every single online rpg.

The (many) topics about this subject have pointed (many) very good reasons to not have direct player to player trade.

#14 PhoenixFlare

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:15 PM

View PostYawg, on 01 August 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Generous people in BWEs when we don't get to keep our stuff was to be expected. But post release, what if I get something nice that I can't use during a PuG dungeon run? I can link the item in party chat, get someone interested reply, but then NO WAY TO TRADE!
I still don't get why Anet can't get the most basic feature present in every single online rpg, there's absolutely no reason why not to include a direct p2p trade interface. People in random PuGs can't be 100% trusted so trading by mail is out of question (also scammers paradise).

That's a ... pessimistic view of the system.

Even if you did have a loot that someone else wants, with a global trading system, what is there to prevent them for getting a similar item from Black Lion Trading Post that can be much cheaper than what you would possibly charge them?

#15 Rukiachan

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostTeste, on 01 August 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

In GW2, group instances are used for dungeons. In dungeons, the most important item isn't random loot dropped from enemies, rather the tokens given as a reward for dungeon completition. Since everyone in the group gets those and they can be used to get the kind of item the player wants, the concern in the OP here doesn't really applies to GW2.

Even if you say they aren't the most important, wouldn't they might matter for someone who is using whites? So what if he needs to run the same instance more times to get enough tokens to get the piece he really needs to change, wouldn't that random blue that you droped, help him and not only him, but you, in case you decided to run again together?

#16 grey_foxx082

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:22 PM

Bottomline, everyone gets loot to sell, give or use, so no one's being punished.  

Part of the reason there's no direct trading and you can't see what others got is so that there's no loot competition.  You get your loot, you decide to sell, keep, or be generous, and everyone gets loot.

View PostRukiachan, on 01 August 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Even if you say they aren't the most important, wouldn't they might matter for someone who is using whites? So what if he needs to run the same instance more times to get enough tokens to get the piece he really needs to change, wouldn't that random blue that you droped, help him and not only him, but you, in case you decided to run again together?

That guy using whites wouldn't be using whites for long if he sells whatever he got from the dungeon and buys whatever he needs. Everyone gets something to sell, keep, or give.  There's no 'I got nothing'.

#17 Deyadissa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostMagicfork, on 01 August 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

No one should be obligated to do this, the loot is instanced for a reason. However, I always give people stuff I find if I have no use for it, and for free of course. If my current group doesn't want it then I'll ask friends or link the item in map chats.

I rarely sell things on auction houses, but when I do I'm that guy who undercuts your prices by 50%.

Spoiler

Thats ridiculous, it sells even if you don't undercut. It's a world auction house we are talking about here.


How about you undercut black dye by 50% for me so I can buy it and make a 50% profit.

Edited by Deyadissa, 01 August 2012 - 05:34 PM.

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#18 Magicfork

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:38 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Thats ridiculous, it sells even if you don't undercut. It's a world auction house we are talking about here.


How about you undercut black dye by 50% for me so I can buy it and make a 50% profit.

I'll be sure to do that for you then, I really don't care about money in a video game. If you do though, I'm glad I just made you some money.

#19 TheGizzy

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

Every game has its own unique etiquette, and that etiquette is set by the players.  One person does something... someone else thinks, "hey, that's a good thing" and does it as well... and an etiquette is born and spreads.

You'll be (I assume) in this game from the very start... so YOU could start an etiquette by simply saying, "hey, I got this _____ that I can't use... would someone else like it?"  Maybe the person you give that item to will do the same in the next PUG s/he joins.

I don't think anyone should feel OBLIGATED to do it... or be guilted into doing it... but I think there are a lot of people that would end up doing it voluntarily and even happily if it simply became "the thing to do."  After all, they're as likely to benefit from such an etiquette as everyone else is. :)

#20 Deyadissa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostMagicfork, on 01 August 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I'll be sure to do that for you then, I really don't care about money in a video game. If you do though, I'm glad I just made you some money.
So you prefer to damage the economy because you don't care about virtual currency?


I guess that means you  don't like gems either. So I guess you'll have to buy them or be limited.
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#21 Magicfork

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

So you prefer to damage the economy because you don't care about virtual currency?


I guess that means you  don't like gems either. So I guess you'll have to buy them or be limited.

Lighten up, good sir or madam. My intentions are not to destroy a video game economy, honestly I don't take this seriously enough to think that would even happen. If the game ever explodes because I put a pair of green pants up for 50 silver instead of 1 gold so some random guy can have a pair of nice pants, I apologize.

As to your second sentence, I have no clue what you're talking about. I don't intend to buy gems from the store or from other players nor sell them.

#22 Deyadissa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostMagicfork, on 01 August 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Lighten up, good sir or madam. My intentions are not to destroy a video game economy, honestly I don't take this seriously enough to think that would even happen. If the game ever explodes because I put a pair of green pants up for 50 silver instead of 1 gold so some random guy can have a pair of nice pants, I apologize.

As to your second sentence, I have no clue what you're talking about. I don't intend to buy gems from the store or from other players nor sell them.


If you want to be nice, give the pants away.


The system works by placing items at the lowest buyer, so if you put it at 50s.... chances are you will have 7+ sellers going under you with 50 silver. In the end, you just cheated out 3.5 gold from all those players. You're not helping the economy that way,
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#23 Magicfork

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:06 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

If you want to be nice, give the pants away.


The system works by placing items at the lowest buyer, so if you put it at 50s.... chances are you will have 7+ sellers going under you with 50 silver. In the end, you just cheated out 3.5 gold from all those players. You're not helping the economy that way,

I would give the pants away, unless no one responded to me and then I would put them up for auction. Hence, "I rarely sell things."

I would also think that they'd scroll down and see all the other prices that are ridiculously higher than mine and set their prices accordingly, but that's just me. I really can't be assed to analyze any of this economic stuff, so I'll just say you make a fair point and I'll consider my trading endeavors more carefully from now on.

#24 Deyadissa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:10 PM

View PostMagicfork, on 01 August 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

I would give the pants away, unless no one responded to me and then I would put them up for auction. Hence, "I rarely sell things."

I would also think that they'd scroll down and see all the other prices that are ridiculously higher than mine and set their prices accordingly, but that's just me. I really can't be assed to analyze any of this economic stuff, so I'll just say you make a fair point and I'll consider my trading endeavors more carefully from now on.

People don't check the listings, since the game tells you a price its selling for and most people set it at the lowest buyer.

So yes, if you sell those pants under, chances are you are doing more harm then good because the players are being cheated out of money.
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#25 Ghostwing

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

People don't check the listings, since the game tells you a price its selling for and most people set it at the lowest buyer.

So yes, if you sell those pants under, chances are you are doing more harm then good because the players are being cheated out of money.

What? No. Player prices are set arbitrarily by players anyway, whether low or high (and you can't set a price lower than which you can sell them to a vendor). There's no MSRP. What kind of harm are you talking about?

Edited by Ghostwing, 01 August 2012 - 06:23 PM.


#26 Deyadissa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:25 PM

View PostGhostwing, on 01 August 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

What? No. Player prices are set arbitrarily by players anyway, whether low or high (and you can't set a price lower than which you can sell them to a vendor). There's no MSRP. What kind of harm are you talking about?

The most common way to sell in the auction house is to match the lowest seller.

Item sells for 5 gold.


One player decides to sell the item with his on price for 1 gold 50s.

THe next player finds item, also hosts it for 1g 50s, because he matched lowest seller.
Another player finds the item, 1g 50s.

Before you know it, 5 or 6 players will list the same price and each one of them is cheated out 4 gold each. It does more harm on items that do not sell quickly such as armor, but it rarely happens for rare items.

Edited by Deyadissa, 01 August 2012 - 06:26 PM.

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#27 Ghostwing

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Item sells for 5 gold.


One player hosts it for 1 gold 50s.

THe next player finds item, also hosts it for 1g 50s.
Another player finds the item, 1g 50s.

Before you know it, 5 or 6 players will list the same price and each one of them is cheated out 4 gold each. It does more harm on items that do not sell quickly such as armor, but it rarely happens for rare items.

If you are not willing to sell it for less than 5g, don't list it for less than 5g. The 1g50s will all sell out and yours will be the only listings left available for people to buy. If people are not willing to pay more than 1g50s, the item wasn't worth 5g, and is only worth 1g50s at that time.

The reverse of your situation would be true as well. If someone pays 5g for your item, and everyone else sells that same item for 1g50s, you just "cheated" that buyer out of 3.5 gold.

Edited by Ghostwing, 01 August 2012 - 06:30 PM.


#28 Deyadissa

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostGhostwing, on 01 August 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

If you are not willing to sell it for less than 5g, don't list it for less than 5g. The 1g50s will all sell out and yours will be the only listings left available for people to buy. If people are not willing to pay more than 1g50s, the item wasn't worth 5g, and is only worth 1g50s at that time.

The reverse of your situation would be true as well. If someone pays 5g for your item, and everyone else sells that same item for 1g50s, you just "cheated" that buyer out of 3.5 gold.

The game lists the average selling price in the marketplace, if it sells for 1g50s, the value of the item goes down and overall the item becomes cheaper.Even if they all sell out quickly for being cheap, it still harms the market.

Edited by Deyadissa, 01 August 2012 - 06:31 PM.

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#29 Ghostwing

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:38 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

The game lists the average selling price in the marketplace, if it sells for 1g50s, the value of the item goes down and overall the item becomes cheaper.

Ultimately that still doesn't harm the "system" though. Gold in the trading post is circulated amongst players. Let's say your scenario is true and it ends up lowering prices...so? If you didn't get the 5 gold you wanted, and got 1.5 gold instead, the buyer just saved himself some gold. I don't understand why you think a gold price set arbitrarily by players in the first place should be a standard. There are no workers to pay, etc. Just don't sell the item for less than you want for it, and the prices fix themselves.

#30 Yawg

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 07:29 PM

View PostTeste, on 01 August 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

The (many) topics about this subject have pointed (many) very good reasons to not have direct player to player trade.
Name at least 1 valid reason. All those threads I've seen didn't have even 1.
Seriously, what could be wrong with having an optional feature?

View PostPhoenixFlare, on 01 August 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

That's a ... pessimistic view of the system.

Even if you did have a loot that someone else wants, with a global trading system, what is there to prevent them for getting a similar item from Black Lion Trading Post that can be much cheaper than what you would possibly charge them?

It's all about easy and convenient trade, not about making profit out of some player - anybody can check the current price.
But just imagine it's in the middle of a dungeon run with like 1 hour till the end and the item could be used immediately. The trading post is far from a perfect solution, even though it's good enough for 99% trading needs.

There can be many possible scenarios when a direct player to player trading would be desirable and when without it many things can go wrong, examples:

- Any item sale could be done through the Trading Post but every item bought has to be manually picked up at the right spot - the trip can take up to even 5 minutes (large city loading times) +extra maptravel fees.
- A particular item may be rare/unpopular enough that there's a large spread between buy and sell prices and the only ones available are significantly overpriced or not available at all (happened even to low level items on Sunday BWE3, likely because people rather threw it to the Mystic Forge than wait for sale.
- I am in a dungeon PuG, a party member asks if "anyone has a decent lvl 50 Scepter? because mine is poop and I could use the Scepter skills for this boss" and I happen to have a nice one but it's worth more than a "free item" so I could sell it to him for a fair market price.... but NO, Anet want's him to buy it on BS Trading Post and make the party wait 5 minutes till he comes back!
- Barter. Infinite possible scenarios when 2 players have items the other wants and because they have already found each other they don't want to do complicated double-sells with double fees and extra travelling but freaking simply swap the items!
- Last but not least - it's a scammers' paradise. "WTS [item], just 2g99s, you pay first" ... extra spam, extra work for support teams, and even that casual trade with a PuG member you've played for 2 hours with you can be never sure about...

Such a simple feature every other game has...

Edited by Yawg, 01 August 2012 - 07:32 PM.






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