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Instances & PUGs

instance loot pug sharing

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#31 PhoenixFlare

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:03 AM

View PostYawg, on 01 August 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

It's all about easy and convenient trade, not about making profit out of some player - anybody can check the current price.
But just imagine it's in the middle of a dungeon run with like 1 hour till the end and the item could be used immediately. The trading post is far from a perfect solution, even though it's good enough for 99% trading needs.

There can be many possible scenarios when a direct player to player trading would be desirable and when without it many things can go wrong, examples:

- Any item sale could be done through the Trading Post but every item bought has to be manually picked up at the right spot - the trip can take up to even 5 minutes (large city loading times) +extra maptravel fees.
- A particular item may be rare/unpopular enough that there's a large spread between buy and sell prices and the only ones available are significantly overpriced or not available at all (happened even to low level items on Sunday BWE3, likely because people rather threw it to the Mystic Forge than wait for sale.
- I am in a dungeon PuG, a party member asks if "anyone has a decent lvl 50 Scepter? because mine is poop and I could use the Scepter skills for this boss" and I happen to have a nice one but it's worth more than a "free item" so I could sell it to him for a fair market price.... but NO, Anet want's him to buy it on BS Trading Post and make the party wait 5 minutes till he comes back!
- Barter. Infinite possible scenarios when 2 players have items the other wants and because they have already found each other they don't want to do complicated double-sells with double fees and extra travelling but freaking simply swap the items!
- Last but not least - it's a scammers' paradise. "WTS [item], just 2g99s, you pay first" ... extra spam, extra work for support teams, and even that casual trade with a PuG member you've played for 2 hours with you can be never sure about...

Such a simple feature every other game has...

Personally, I prefer the 99% working solution. The last 1% would be just icing on the cake. But, to each his own.

As for your scenarios:
- The extra travel fees are minimal at best. In fact, it's much lower with every BWE that I've played. The largest sum was, what, 60 copper, and that's because I was traveling maybe three zones away from my destination? Granted, we haven't actually seen a larger portion of the game, but I'd expect more cities to pop up at later zones than you needing to constantly travel back to any of the starter cities and/or Lion's Arch. And, as far as I remember, there are Black Lion Trading Posts in the starter zones outside the cities, so you can eliminate the "long" loading time issue. If you desperately need the item for any reason, then you should be prepared to cover the fee. Plus, if you made any sales at all other than that single item, then your fee is a non-issue.

- I don't see how that's a problem, unless you mean you want to trade the item directly to another person at a price different from what's offered at the Trading Post. That being said, I do support the option for Cash on Delivery.

- This is ... how do I put it, strangely off? Items drop to your actual level frequent enough that you don't constantly need to look for upgrades than necessary. There is rarely "poop" item of any kind, unless it's sellable junk. I had three staves (and a smattering of other items) dropping for me around my level when I already have a decent one for myself. If the PUG player hasn't been keeping items for himself that he should and realizing that he has to use one later, then I don't see how it's a fault of the trading system. For one, having a dungeon run fail because of not upgrading ONE weapon properly is hardly realistic. If he even had a Level 50 white Scepter, that is good enough - blue rarity and above just makes him slightly better. The scenario you're describing is more that he's using a starter Scepter in a Level 50 dungeon, of which then it is the fault of the player instead. Two, if you can't wait 5 minutes out of how many hours you've spent in the dungeon, then I don't know what to say. Remind me of a time when there's no Warlock in your team to put up a Summoning Portal for a party member who forgot to bring extra mandatory consumables, deep into a raid.

- I can see this being a problem, yes, if you have an issue of trust. Like you said, both of you have found each other, and that means both of you have said items ready to be traded. The only reason why you wouldn't proceed with it is because you don't trust each other after all (paradoxical much)! You either have to be worried about getting said item at all or getting a cut of the transaction - I don't see how hard is it to see which one is better.

- I'm pretty sure one of the reasons quoted by many on the non-implementation of a direct player-to-player trading is to prevent scams like that from happening. Any player with any inkling of how to trade at all would know ignore these "spammers" (I mean, even with the blatantly obvious "you pay first" tag ...). Granted, there would be players eventually falling to the scheme, but I think the system put in place, imperfect as it is, has the aim to protect buyers first and foremost. Personally, I'll be ignoring people doing "WTS"es, and that eliminates a lot of headaches (for me, at least) that you purport will happen.

#32 Havoc

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:15 AM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

The most common way to sell in the auction house is to match the lowest seller.

Item sells for 5 gold.


One player decides to sell the item with his on price for 1 gold 50s.

THe next player finds item, also hosts it for 1g 50s, because he matched lowest seller.
Another player finds the item, 1g 50s.

Before you know it, 5 or 6 players will list the same price and each one of them is cheated out 4 gold each. It does more harm on items that do not sell quickly such as armor, but it rarely happens for rare items.
So, I can make a 20 slot bag, list it at 5 coppers, wait for everyone else to automatically do the same, then buy them all up for resale at a substantially marked up price? I'm liking this game!!!

#33 Da-Noob

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:20 AM

If, or most likely when the situation arises that I'm taking down a mob with someone else and I get a piece of loot, if it's a straightforward upgrade for me, then I equip it and say "yay upgrade."   If it's not an upgrade for me or an item that my class can't use, then I ask if the other person wants it before keeping it.

#34 Iccin

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:42 PM

View PostDeyadissa, on 01 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

The most common way to sell in the auction house is to match the lowest seller.

Item sells for 5 gold.


One player decides to sell the item with his on price for 1 gold 50s.

THe next player finds item, also hosts it for 1g 50s, because he matched lowest seller.
Another player finds the item, 1g 50s.

Before you know it, 5 or 6 players will list the same price and each one of them is cheated out 4 gold each. It does more harm on items that do not sell quickly such as armor, but it rarely happens for rare items.

If this happens then the item you were selling for 5 gold was not worth 5 gold in the first place.

That is how the system works. There is no cheating you out of money.

Edited by Iccin, 02 August 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#35 BlueTooth

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostRukiachan, on 01 August 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

In other games, we are used to pug people to fill the requeriments to do a instance run and it usually resulted on people sharing loot for those who are in need of better gear, mostly because when it droped, the entire party could see the loot, so it was easy to share it between themselves.

That's not the case on GW2, the game makes the loot availble to only one person and no one else knows what it drops. I don't have a problem with that, since on the end of run, you will get at least a piece of a item that you can use, but what to do with those you can't? Being with friends, it would be a no-brainer to tell them that you droped a item that they might want to use, but, what if it's a complete stranger? Would you link the item and ask if he wants it or sell it all together?


Sorry if there's a topic on this subject, I did a search, but I couldn't find it.

I asked PUG groups if they needed _____ item. They would either offer to trade for something they thought I needed in return or pay for it. A few people I just gave them the items because they needed them way more than I did.

#36 Specialz

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:06 PM

I personally like to take the item the person wants salvage it and send them the materials, but that is just what I would do.

Edited by Specialz, 02 August 2012 - 05:06 PM.


#37 Eqo

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostLinfang, on 01 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Stranger or not, that is a person in your group contributed to gaining that loot, so in all fairness unwanted loot should be given to others in that party who could use it.

I agree. I don't like to play alone, and even when I'm with guildmates if there's an extra slot in our party I'll invite a random person in the area to come along with us. That's how I make new friends!

I'll probably focus on two characters at the beginning, and drops I won't use I'll offer to party members first. That just feels natural since we're all there together anyway. In the beta weekends I would see random people offering each other gear. It was a very friendly environment. Maybe if all of us decide to be very friendly in GW2, we'll by example encourage others to also be friendly. :)

#38 Kichwas

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:49 PM

Its normal to give it all around in betas. Smart players know that the faster items hit play, the faster devs can get stats on it and check that one off the list of 'things that need review before live.'

But once live hits... maybe I don't need it on this toon, but my other one does... and it dropped for me... so why are you demanding to know what it was and for me to hand it over.

If I don't need it, I might sell it or give it to something. But NOT if folks start begging me or demanding it.

View PostYawg, on 01 August 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

There can be many possible scenarios when a direct player to player trading would be desirable and when without it many things can go wrong, examples:

but NO, Anet want's him to buy it on BS Trading Post and make the party wait 5 minutes till he comes back!

I remember a time in GW1 when all you could see in chat in any city was line after line of:
WTS and WTB... so bad you couldn't any conversations. And when traders figured people would leave channels over it, they started moving to the channels people escaped to...

Much more prefer trade locked down to a tool, so we can have chat. The minor inconvenience is worth it.

#39 Yawg

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

View PostKichwas, on 02 August 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I remember a time in GW1 when all you could see in chat in any city was line after line of:
WTS and WTB... so bad you couldn't any conversations. And when traders figured people would leave channels over it, they started moving to the channels people escaped to...

Much more prefer trade locked down to a tool, so we can have chat. The minor inconvenience is worth it.
In GW1 there was no other way to trade than spam WTS or WTB so ruined chat was to be expected. But in GW2 I really don't see why anyone under normal circumstances would want to waste time standing and shouting WTS when they could just post it or instant sell it on the marketplace and keep playing.

In all 3 BWEs I happened to run into 2 different situations where direct p2p trade would be needed. Neither of them involved a public chat.



View PostPhoenixFlare, on 02 August 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

Personally, I prefer the 99% working solution. The last 1% would be just icing on the cake. But, to each his own.

As for your scenarios:
- The extra travel fees are minimal at best. In fact, it's much lower with every BWE that I've played. The largest sum was, what, 60 copper, and that's because I was traveling maybe three zones away from my destination? Granted, we haven't actually seen a larger portion of the game, but I'd expect more cities to pop up at later zones than you needing to constantly travel back to any of the starter cities and/or Lion's Arch. And, as far as I remember, there are Black Lion Trading Posts in the starter zones outside the cities, so you can eliminate the "long" loading time issue. If you desperately need the item for any reason, then you should be prepared to cover the fee. Plus, if you made any sales at all other than that single item, then your fee is a non-issue.
Expect the fees to get higher in high level areas as they aren't based only on distance but also the area levels. And those Black Lion Market npcs in starter zones didn't help much from my experience (I mean after out-leveling the starting area)

Quote

- This is ... how do I put it, strangely off? Items drop to your actual level frequent enough that you don't constantly need to look for upgrades than necessary. There is rarely "poop" item of any kind, unless it's sellable junk. I had three staves (and a smattering of other items) dropping for me around my level when I already have a decent one for myself. If the PUG player hasn't been keeping items for himself that he should and realizing that he has to use one later, then I don't see how it's a fault of the trading system. For one, having a dungeon run fail because of not upgrading ONE weapon properly is hardly realistic. If he even had a Level 50 white Scepter, that is good enough - blue rarity and above just makes him slightly better. The scenario you're describing is more that he's using a starter Scepter in a Level 50 dungeon, of which then it is the fault of the player instead. Two, if you can't wait 5 minutes out of how many hours you've spent in the dungeon, then I don't know what to say. Remind me of a time when there's no Warlock in your team to put up a Summoning Portal for a party member who forgot to bring extra mandatory consumables, deep into a raid.

by "poop" item I meant something like a blue that's 8+ levels below you and has rather undesirable stats. The differences between rarities are quite significant even at the same level. I fully expect lots of players to NOT upgrade every weapon their class CAN use every 5-8 levels.  The situation I described isn't something that makes or breaks the dungeon run but it's what I expect to happen pretty often (a similar situation happened to me during one BWE2 dungeon run)

Quote

- I can see this being a problem, yes, if you have an issue of trust. Like you said, both of you have found each other, and that means both of you have said items ready to be traded. The only reason why you wouldn't proceed with it is because you don't trust each other after all (paradoxical much)! You either have to be worried about getting said item at all or getting a cut of the transaction - I don't see how hard is it to see which one is better.
With a proper trade interface there's no need for any trust.

Quote

- I'm pretty sure one of the reasons quoted by many on the non-implementation of a direct player-to-player trading is to prevent scams like that from happening. Any player with any inkling of how to trade at all would know ignore these "spammers" (I mean, even with the blatantly obvious "you pay first" tag ...). Granted, there would be players eventually falling to the scheme, but I think the system put in place, imperfect as it is, has the aim to protect buyers first and foremost. Personally, I'll be ignoring people doing "WTS"es, and that eliminates a lot of headaches (for me, at least) that you purport will happen.
I don't see how a safe direct trading interface would enable any scams. It's exactly the opposite - not having it gives all the power to the scammers.
Of course I went too far with my description, no sane scammer will be putting that "you pay first" in their spam text, but it will be the only way they will agree to complete the trade.

#40 Guildmojo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:15 AM

I gave away quite a few items in beta, simply because it was beta and it´s doing no good sitting in my inventory. But for the launch I might keep it to people I come across that I really like. It might increase my crafting and gold count slightly to keep every single item, but not that much that I can't give some items away.

The thing is you get so much more loot over all in dungeons then what you do in a lot of other mmo's. Instead of 1 - 2 items to fight over per boss, you get 1-3 items each. So being generous is not a problem, question is how much those items will be worth in the end on the market place.
My prediction will be that green items will go for very low prices and it will be more about those rare drops for gold.

The set items is something you buy for token and as far as I know those are bound to you.

View PostYawg, on 04 August 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

With a proper trade interface there's no need for any trust.

I don't see how a safe direct trading interface would enable any scams. It's exactly the opposite - not having it gives all the power to the scammers.
Of course I went too far with my description, no sane scammer will be putting that "you pay first" in their spam text, but it will be the only way they will agree to complete the trade.

The things is you can do save trades but not without using the market place. So the solution for you here is simple, use the market place and ignore those that want to do it outside of the market place. The way that the market place is sorted out is pretty smart, you can say how much you are willing to pay for an item even.
I don´t see how it would be faster to find someone else and then meet up to do the trading - as the chat options still are quite limited. People can see your auctions and requests anywhere in the world if they need something or find something. There was at least 1 - 2 spots per map to pick your items up from, no need for long distance travel.

Edited by Guildmojo, 04 August 2012 - 09:23 AM.


#41 Ardeni

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostRukiachan, on 01 August 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

In other games, we are used to pug people to fill the requeriments to do a instance run and it usually resulted on people sharing loot for those who are in need of better gear, mostly because when it droped, the entire party could see the loot, so it was easy to share it between themselves.

That's not the case on GW2, the game makes the loot availble to only one person and no one else knows what it drops. I don't have a problem with that, since on the end of run, you will get at least a piece of a item that you can use, but what to do with those you can't? Being with friends, it would be a no-brainer to tell them that you droped a item that they might want to use, but, what if it's a complete stranger? Would you link the item and ask if he wants it or sell it all together?


Sorry if there's a topic on this subject, I did a search, but I couldn't find it.

Personally I've never played a game where people would be generous enough to use this kind of system with any random player around there. Then again, I've only played f2p games where the only thing that could cost you real money is using the cash shop. Either way, I've only seen limited communities such as guilds using this system.

In the latest MMO which I played, Cabal online, the dungeon drops followed this rough pattern: 50% were crap, 49% were sellable but not very valuable, 0,999% were quite expensive and 0,001% were extremely valuable (you got rich instantly). The cause of this poor system was that nobody wanted to give away the good items (1%) to the other party members even if they needed them totally free of charge. The items were simply too rare for this to happen equally. If you gave one of these items to a guy in your party, you most likely had to wait for months to get another item. Had you missed that one as well, you would have gotten very frustrated. Playing the game without any rewards for months wasn't fun; it was more like pointless grinding. Due to this the guilds that used this PUG system were in trouble as their members were angry as the drops weren't divided egually. Thus most people ended up selling all the drops, no matter how rare, and to share the money that they got after selling them. The game was built in a way that drove people to become individualists. It didn't help that PvP and PvE were 100% dependent on gear; your skill didn't matter at all if you had common sense.

Now, why did I mention this? To give a context on my opinion about this subject. Due to playing the game mentioned above for five or so years, I am very reluctant to use this kind of generous system where I'd be giving everything to others even if I did recieve something back. I am okay with trading a good item for another, but the idea of giving stuff to a random guy who I might never see again is simply maddening. I hope that GW2 will change my opinion on this matter since the differences in level 80 gear is mainly cosmetic. Also, due to the karma system I tend to think that gold actually doesn't matter all that much.

Tl;dr: I like the idea of people being generous to eachother. However, due to things in which I've accustomed to in previous games that I've played, the system somewhat frightens me at the same time.





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