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#1 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:42 PM

So i've taken a liking to S/D + SB weapon set, and so far, i've came up with a heavy crit and crit damage build.

I know it's general consensus that you want to keep your crit rating around 50%, but i've toyed with much higher, coupled with high crit damage. At retail release, i'll be testing varying amounts, tempered by power and +damage modifiers.

I'm  currently working on this(with traits and runes):

Crit chance: 57%, (modified to 79% on Flanking Strike and 74% for other flanking attacks)
Crit Damage: +50%
Damage: +25%
Power: 1839
Attack: 2899

I do have another build with 52% crit, 68% crit damage and +15% damage, but until I can actually test variations out, I won't know which way to go with stuff.

Disclaimer:

For the record, i'll be testing more than just crit and crit damage builds, but I want to have a baseline to work by, and I figure i'll start out with the high crit end of the scale.

What i'm interested in knowing, is how much power and attack is typical/needed to make something like this work?

Edited by Fade_Guin, 07 August 2012 - 04:10 PM.


#2 Tenderly

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:57 PM

I suggest putting a link to a calculator for easier handling. =)

It's difficult to say without seeing the whole build.

Just looking at those stats, I'd say 50% crit and 50% crit damage with 1899 attack is plenty for the sword.

In my testing, anything over 50% crit was redundant since I would get more out of my damage by increasing the crit damage instead. For straight up crit builds I typically like to get at least 25 points in critical strikes (for 25% crit damage), 6 runes of divinity for 18% crit damage, and 20% crit damage from amulet/jewel. Unless using pistols I felt like the grandmaster traits in critical strikes weren't worth 5% crit damage and I could better spend to those points in other lines.

#3 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:09 PM

Sorry, I thought I had linked the build.

http://gw2skills.net...VOrkWtIY8xmgZBA

#4 Tenderly

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostFade_Guin, on 07 August 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Sorry, I thought I had linked the build.

http://gw2skills.net...VOrkWtIY8xmgZBA

Should edit it in first post <3

I think you could get a lot more of off the "on crit sigils" than a static 10% crit in a build that has a bunch of crit already. Air/Blood/Purity/Might all seem good for this build.

#5 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:32 PM

View PostTenderly, on 07 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Should edit it in first post <3

I think you could get a lot more of off the "on crit sigils" than a static 10% crit in a build that has a bunch of crit already. Air/Blood/Purity/Might all seem good for this build.

I've been considering swapping one of the crit sigils over to Superior Fragility, for the chance to proc vulnerability. Add to that dropping down to 20 in the crit strike line and going 10 in deadly arts for Sundering strikes. That just begs another question though: How much vulnerability is needed to make it worthwhile? I wish I could test in-game these things and not have to wait over 2 weeks.

#6 geist burdill

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

Ok, if u wanna double ur dmg, it has been said (and its fairly obvious) ur routes are to double power or halve armor; u can also have a ratio of precision/prowess that equals the before mentioned variations with power or armor. That ratio is 100% crit chance with 2.0 crit modifier.

- This gives us a start to finetune the relation of power/crit, and if a average dmg is to be calculated from this (or DPS), we can use this formula, assuming that 1 point in power equals +1 dmg:

DPS=((P*(100-CC))+(P*CM)*CC)/100, where:
  P= Power
  CC= Crit chance
  CM= crit modifier

In this example, using 1 P=1 dmg, with ur numbers in the first example,  we would have DPS=((1899*43) + ((1899*2)*57))/100 <=> (81657+216486)/100 <=> 298143/100 ==2981,43 DPS.

So, 2981.43/1899 <=> 1,57.  This is a  57% increase in dps over a build without crits, wich happens to be ur crit chance, 57%; with this u can already see that a 2.0 crit mod increases ur overall dps by as many crit chance as u have; if u add fury to that, ull get 77% crit chance, so a 77% increased dps:
((1899*23)+(1899*2*77))/100 <=> 3361,23/1899 <=> 1.77

Note that this is using dmg numbers without any relation to any tested dmg, those figures require armor contingencies, etc, but for a fixed amount of 1 power to 1 dmg, thats how u can get an idea of the overall dmg potential on ur build.

#7 Tenderly

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:36 PM

Fragility works a lot better with P/P where the #2 just puts on 5 stacks at once. Coupled with Unload, that's really the only way I feel like it's worth using vuln anything. They recently buffed the #2 to give 5 instead of 3 stacks, so it seems just few stacks isn't much of a difference.

#8 jeff23

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:44 PM

So, what critical chance % is optimal?

#9 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:45 PM

View Postgeist burdill, on 07 August 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Ok, if u wanna double ur dmg, it has been said (and its fairly obvious) ur routes are to double power or halve armor; u can also have a ratio of precision/prowess that equals the before mentioned variations with power or armor. That ratio is 100% crit chance with 2.0 crit modifier.

- This gives us a start to finetune the relation of power/crit, and if a average dmg is to be calculated from this (or DPS), we can use this formula, assuming that 1 point in power equals +1 dmg:

DPS=((P*(100-CC))+(P*CM)*CC)/100, where:
  P= Power
  CC= Crit chance
  CM= crit modifier

In this example, using 1 P=1 dmg, with ur numbers in the first example,  we would have DPS=((1899*43) + ((1899*2)*57))/100 <=> (81657+216486)/100 <=> 298143/100 ==2981,43 DPS.

So, 2981.43/1899 <=> 1,57.  This is a  57% increase in dps over a build without crits, wich happens to be ur crit chance, 57%; with this u can already see that a 2.0 crit mod increases ur overall dps by as many crit chance as u have; if u add fury to that, ull get 77% crit chance, so a 77% increased dps:
((1899*23)+(1899*2*77))/100 <=> 3361,23/1899 <=> 1.77

Note that this is using dmg numbers without any relation to any tested dmg, those figures require armor contingencies, etc, but for a fixed amount of 1 power to 1 dmg, thats how u can get an idea of the overall dmg potential on ur build.

OMG! Math hurt head. Me need drink now!

Kidding aside, thanks for the math. It will take some time for me to get comfortable with it, as I tended to skip my math classes when I was in school lol.

As for vulnerability, I suspected it wasn't all that great if you could get 5 stacks with one shot.

Edit: Someone should come up with a site with all that math where you can just plug in numbers, add in armor types/contingencies etc.

Edited by Fade_Guin, 07 August 2012 - 04:48 PM.


#10 Tenderly

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostFade_Guin, on 07 August 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

As for vulnerability, I suspected it wasn't all that great if you could get 5 stacks with one shot.

The only use I see for it is in team fights when everyone spikes one enemy, so why not stack 20 vulns real quick!

#11 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostTenderly, on 07 August 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

The only use I see for it is in team fights when everyone spikes one enemy, so why not stack 20 vulns real quick!

Meh, most of the teams I got during sPvP couldn't co-ordinate their way out of a paper bag.

Edit: Has it ever been determined whether Sigil of Fire stacks with Sigil of Air? Or does your second sigil with the 5 second CD have to wait out that 5 seconds as well?

Edited by Fade_Guin, 07 August 2012 - 05:21 PM.


#12 Tenderly

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:36 PM

View PostFade_Guin, on 07 August 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Has it ever been determined whether Sigil of Fire stacks with Sigil of Air? Or does your second sigil with the 5 second CD have to wait out that 5 seconds as well?

It was tested by Amon, he concluded that one put the other on cooldown apparently.

#13 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:40 PM

View PostTenderly, on 07 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

It was tested by Amon, he concluded that one put the other on cooldown apparently.

Meh. Thanks for the info.

#14 jeff23

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:12 PM

View Postgeist burdill, on 07 August 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Ok, if u wanna double ur dmg, it has been said (and its fairly obvious) ur routes are to double power or halve armor; u can also have a ratio of precision/prowess that equals the before mentioned variations with power or armor. That ratio is 100% crit chance with 2.0 crit modifier.

- This gives us a start to finetune the relation of power/crit, and if a average dmg is to be calculated from this (or DPS), we can use this formula, assuming that 1 point in power equals +1 dmg:

DPS=((P*(100-CC))+(P*CM)*CC)/100, where:
  P= Power
  CC= Crit chance
  CM= crit modifier

In this example, using 1 P=1 dmg, with ur numbers in the first example,  we would have DPS=((1899*43) + ((1899*2)*57))/100 <=> (81657+216486)/100 <=> 298143/100 ==2981,43 DPS.

So, 2981.43/1899 <=> 1,57.  This is a  57% increase in dps over a build without crits, wich happens to be ur crit chance, 57%; with this u can already see that a 2.0 crit mod increases ur overall dps by as many crit chance as u have; if u add fury to that, ull get 77% crit chance, so a 77% increased dps:
((1899*23)+(1899*2*77))/100 <=> 3361,23/1899 <=> 1.77

Note that this is using dmg numbers without any relation to any tested dmg, those figures require armor contingencies, etc, but for a fixed amount of 1 power to 1 dmg, thats how u can get an idea of the overall dmg potential on ur build.

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Do me a huge favor and help this ignorant, unintelligent person.  Explain in layman terms, what is the optimal critical chance percentage to have?

#15 Asudementio

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:15 PM

I would think an optimal amount of crit would be dependent on weapon choice, traits, and rune and sigil choices.

#16 Uder

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:20 PM

It´s funny how rahter hard it is to increase the crit chance on thief while other classes doesnt seem to have problems with it without gimping themselves:

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#17 Asudementio

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostUder, on 07 August 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

It´s funny how rahter hard it is to increase the crit chance on thief while other classes doesnt seem to have problems with it without gimping themselves:

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Jesus that is a ridiculous amount of crit, which BW is this?

#18 geist burdill

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:37 PM

View Postjeff23, on 07 August 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Do me a huge favor and help this ignorant, unintelligent person.  Explain in layman terms, what is the optimal critical chance percentage to have?

http://gw2skills.net...nokyIlQKrMOpkSB
http://gw2skills.net...nokyIlQKrMOpkSB


It depends on the amount of power u have before considering going into the crit department; lets create a scenario to compare, for example, the rune of the mesmer and the rune of divinity, both with a berserker amulet+jewel, with 0/20/0/25/25, for the thief.
-> since dmg scales linearly with power, lets use a 1:1 ratio, 1 power = 1 dmg, and the hit rate is 1 per second:
   -with runes of divinity, u get 1899 power, 47% crit chance, 2.08  crit modifier; aplying the above formula, i get a DPS of 2862.9, my normal hits are 1899 (equal to power) and i get crits of 3949.9 (power*2.08);
  -with runes of the mesmer, and using another power rune on 6th slot (we dont need the stun enhancer), we get a DPS of 2887.62, normal hits are 2029 and my crits are now 3855.1 (power*1.9). In this example, 5 runes of mesmer + 1 other vs rune of divinity offered more DPS, but less crit dmg, both by a small margin;

Now, using 20/0/0/25/25, switching precision with power:
  -with divinity -> 2099 power, 38% chance, 1.88 crit modifier, DPS 2800.2, crits for 3946.1;
  -with mesmer rune -> 2229 power, 37% crit chance, 1.7 crit modifier, DPS 2806.3, crits for 2789.3.
As u can see, despite the fact that power and precision was switched around, still was the rune of mesmer the one with better DPS, and worst crits, so in this case,  when comparing the runes alone, lots of more power with some mixed precision made a larger impact on dmg than balanced power/precision and very high crit modifier, however, when comparing the whole of the equipment and stats,  more crit dmg and precision proved to be better than raw power above 2000.
Lets finally split, 10/10/0/25/25:
  -divinity -> 1999, 42%, 1.98 modifier => 2821 DPS, 3958 crits;
  -mesmer -> 2129, 42%, 1.8 modifier => 2844.3 DPS, 3832.2 crits.

The relation doesnt seems to change, no mather how we twist it, and the best combo for DPS is the one with higher crit chance and crit modifier, for a case where we have around 2K power+2.0 crit modifier+50% crit chance... this seems like a sweet spot. However, with lower than 1.7 power, its better to go for power, since a 100 increase power is over 7% more dmg, and u cant get that much increase with precision + prowess alone. Worthy of note is that the higher ur power is, the less benefit u reap from investing in it, specially noticeable above 2000 power, where each increment of 100 power is less than 5% more dmg, whereas incrementing via traits, getting both prec and prowess will net you more dmg the more you invest, as long as u get +precision and +prowess.

As for the dmg calculations for DPS, to explain better, with 50% crit chance and 2.0 modifier, in a sample of 100 hits, i will get 50 normal hits (P*50), plus 50 critical hits, with each crit being a double dmg hit, thus (P*2*50), so, to make a average, i add first term (P*50), with 2nd term (P*2*50), and then, since it was a sample with 100 hits, ill divide by that. With P = 1 => ((1*50)+(1*2*50))/100 => (50+100)/100 => 1.5.

#19 Fade_Guin

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:09 PM

Quote

incrementing via traits, getting both precision and prowess will net you more damage the more you invest, as long as u get +precision and +prowess.

That was my general belief that if you're close to ~2,000 power, you'd see a better increase going for more +crit and +crit damage over power. I wasn't sure how accurate it was, nor had any facts to support it. That's the reason I went for as much crit and crit damage as possible, skipping over proc-on-crit sigils.

I wonder where +damage traits/runes/sigils come in, from a formulaic standpoint.

Edited by Fade_Guin, 07 August 2012 - 11:10 PM.


#20 Faded913

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:40 PM

View Postgeist burdill, on 07 August 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

http://gw2skills.net...nokyIlQKrMOpkSB
http://gw2skills.net...nokyIlQKrMOpkSB


It depends on the amount of power u have before considering going into the crit department; lets create a scenario to compare, for example, the rune of the mesmer and the rune of divinity, both with a berserker amulet+jewel, with 0/20/0/25/25, for the thief.
-> since dmg scales linearly with power, lets use a 1:1 ratio, 1 power = 1 dmg, and the hit rate is 1 per second:
   -with runes of divinity, u get 1899 power, 47% crit chance, 2.08  crit modifier; aplying the above formula, i get a DPS of 2862.9, my normal hits are 1899 (equal to power) and i get crits of 3949.9 (power*2.08);
  -with runes of the mesmer, and using another power rune on 6th slot (we dont need the stun enhancer), we get a DPS of 2887.62, normal hits are 2029 and my crits are now 3855.1 (power*1.9). In this example, 5 runes of mesmer + 1 other vs rune of divinity offered more DPS, but less crit dmg, both by a small margin;

Now, using 20/0/0/25/25, switching precision with power:
  -with divinity -> 2099 power, 38% chance, 1.88 crit modifier, DPS 2800.2, crits for 3946.1;
  -with mesmer rune -> 2229 power, 37% crit chance, 1.7 crit modifier, DPS 2806.3, crits for 2789.3.
As u can see, despite the fact that power and precision was switched around, still was the rune of mesmer the one with better DPS, and worst crits, so in this case,  when comparing the runes alone, lots of more power with some mixed precision made a larger impact on dmg than balanced power/precision and very high crit modifier, however, when comparing the whole of the equipment and stats,  more crit dmg and precision proved to be better than raw power above 2000.
Lets finally split, 10/10/0/25/25:
  -divinity -> 1999, 42%, 1.98 modifier => 2821 DPS, 3958 crits;
  -mesmer -> 2129, 42%, 1.8 modifier => 2844.3 DPS, 3832.2 crits.

The relation doesnt seems to change, no mather how we twist it, and the best combo for DPS is the one with higher crit chance and crit modifier, for a case where we have around 2K power+2.0 crit modifier+50% crit chance... this seems like a sweet spot. However, with lower than 1.7 power, its better to go for power, since a 100 increase power is over 7% more dmg, and u cant get that much increase with precision + prowess alone. Worthy of note is that the higher ur power is, the less benefit u reap from investing in it, specially noticeable above 2000 power, where each increment of 100 power is less than 5% more dmg, whereas incrementing via traits, getting both prec and prowess will net you more dmg the more you invest, as long as u get +precision and +prowess.

As for the dmg calculations for DPS, to explain better, with 50% crit chance and 2.0 modifier, in a sample of 100 hits, i will get 50 normal hits (P*50), plus 50 critical hits, with each crit being a double dmg hit, thus (P*2*50), so, to make a average, i add first term (P*50), with 2nd term (P*2*50), and then, since it was a sample with 100 hits, ill divide by that. With P = 1 => ((1*50)+(1*2*50))/100 => (50+100)/100 => 1.5.

very interesting..thanks..have u dont any math on damage mitigation, armor, toughness, defense, etc? Curious to find out if investing anything above say 2000 armor is worthwhile or not. Dont mean to hijack this thread since its about crit/power so ill start another discussion.

#21 Fayne

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:11 AM

Do you think 1730 power with 49% crit and 39% crit damage is too low to be effective? (The build runs higher vitality with about 21,500 hp)

Edited by Fayne, 08 August 2012 - 12:14 AM.


#22 geist burdill

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:02 AM

View PostFayne, on 08 August 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Do you think 1730 power with 49% crit and 39% crit damage is too low to be effective? (The build runs higher vitality with about 21,500 hp)

That depends on how u wanna play, and what role, etc, but if u wanna compare those stats with the ones i gave, in the same scenario,  well, ull have a DPS of  2484.4, and ur crits will be 3269.7, the one example with best score was 2887 DPS and 3855 crits, around 16% more damage than yours.

#23 Fayne

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:30 AM

View Postgeist burdill, on 08 August 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

That depends on how u wanna play, and what role, etc, but if u wanna compare those stats with the ones i gave, in the same scenario,  well, ull have a DPS of  2484.4, and ur crits will be 3269.7, the one example with best score was 2887 DPS and 3855 crits, around 16% more damage than yours.

I was thinking more along the lines of a more solo viable build with more survivability and a ton of mobility to solo points while teamfights go on at others by using the thief's crazy ability to traverse the map.

The build has a 30% chance to remove a condition from yourself and a boon from your foe on every swing and has 2,200 armor with 21,500 vitality. It also has a 20% chance to apply vulnerability on every swing and constantly blinds and has 2 heals.  Lots of stacks of might too.

#24 jeff23

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:39 AM

Sir, I told you I was dumb.  What is this "crit modifier" and where are you getting its number?

#25 geist burdill

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:14 AM

View Postjeff23, on 08 August 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

Sir, I told you I was dumb.  What is this "crit modifier" and where are you getting its number?

Base critical hits do 1.5 more dmg than normal hits, so a hit for 100 dmg should crit for 150; however, with some amulets, runes and jewels, plus traits, u can get ur base critical hit do more than just 1.5 more dmg. In the links i have in the post, go to the equipment and hover ur cursor over the critical chance number, ull get a popup showing 40% crit dmg, u add that to the base 1.5, getting 1.9.

#26 jeff23

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:29 AM

Ok, thanks.  Also, do you agree with this statement?

View PostTenderly, on 07 August 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

In my testing, anything over 50% crit was redundant since I would get more out of my damage by increasing the crit damage instead.


#27 geist burdill

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 11:55 AM

View Postjeff23, on 08 August 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Ok, thanks.  Also, do you agree with this statement?

On a thief, precision and prowess are entangled, we usually get both, and there is only one amulet that gives u +crit dmg and no precision, the valkyrie amulet, whereas amulets with precision and not prowess are abundant... if you have a crit modifier of 2.0, double dmg on crit, increasing crit chance will directly result in increasing DPS by the exact % of the critical chance increase, if u have 50% chance, its a 50% +DPS, if u have fury on top, ure increasing ur DPS by 70%... the problem here is that is much easier to increase precision than prowess, so precision in a case like fury, easy aplication of 20% more, precision pays of; however, if we work just with the traits, where 10 points in critical strikes adds 10% more crit dmg but only 4% more crit chance, the scale tips to the prowess side, as each 100 precision adds ~2.6 dmg, whereas each 10% prowess adds ~3.33, considering the case of 50% crit chance and 2.0 crit modifier.

#28 cesmode

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

Ths is my first time making a build but how is ths for. High crit high dmg build

http://gw2skills.net...alzKpVLCGfsJYWA


#29 geist burdill

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:15 PM

That build has indeed a lot of dmg potential, but in spvp you can only have 1 jewel, not 5... if u wanna tip, if u use a 25/20/0/0/25 spread ull get more dmg than with that spread, ull keep the weakness trait for more 10% dmg, and get the lead attacks trait, wich is more advantageous than 5% more crit chance and 10% more crit dmg. Down side is the crits will have lower dmg, but DPS is higher.

#30 strycubus

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

I knida have a similar build in my mind, but my question is more on the mechanic of the way Death Blossom and Flanking Strike behave:

Does the trait "Flanking Strike" in the trickery line count towards weapon skills with a "flanking" movement attached to them; Flanking Strike (S/D) or Death Blossom (D/D)? Is Death Blosson even considered a flank.

So say I'm face to face with my enemy, and I have the Flanking Strike trait, and I hit Death Blossom, which means I jump over his head and strike him. Does that count as a "flanking attack" ?

The same goes for the "Side Strike" trait in the critical strikes line. Now this is only an assumption that these traits stack with each other, which I have no clue why they wouldn't.

This is the build I'm thinking about for PvE content: http://gw2.luna-atra...00p8c8f8l8n9i9o

Basically it's a constant 20% buff damage, not counting an addt' 30% non static from Lead Attacks, and 12% crit chance just from traits. Obviously this is mainly for PvE content in group play, as anyone worth thier salt wouldn't just stand there and let you tee off on them from behind.




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