28 replies to this topic

[Secticide]

I've heard alot of community chit-chat around the Heart Events and whether they are "right" or not. Many players who have played other MMO's tend to use the Heart Events like they would quests in other games, this leads to gameplay that works like a "ticklist".

This is at least my view on the matter, whether it be the players fault or not; the current Heart Event setup doesn't exactly show players that in fact there is a more fun or arguably "better" way to play the game. That way is using the dynamic events system to gain experience and level up using the Heart Events as "pointers" for where to go if you get a little lost.

My solution is this, and I would like to know what the community on here think about it! Basically, the Heart Events are in the game almost exactly how they are now, but when you click on the heart in the map mode; a circle would be drawn around the area (like the event circles showing us where the event is taking place). This circle would show the player the area where the dynamic events would "count" towards the heart, each event visually slightly filling the heart by a certain amount. This would show players that there are events nearby, it would give completionists something to work on and all of us a bigger desire to explore.

This image shows what I mean in a more visual way, the left section of the picture is how it looks now and the right is what I propose. What do you guys think?

More information here: Guild Wars Lore Blog

[NeonArlecchino]

I like the idea but don't see how it would stop newbs from still using the hearts as a checklist. They would need to know to click hearts in Map and what it means; but at that point, a descriptive pop up on Dynamic Events may be more direct.

[Krazzar]

Personally, I looked to do events in the area of a heart anyway so I rarely just completed the heart. I believe that is the intention, that you initially look for the bonus of an event in the area of a heart then follow an event chain or go looking for the more interesting events. Because of the way I played your suggestion was already being used, that being there was an event circle around most of the hearts I did because an event was taking place in that area.

[Secticide]

@NeonArlecchino - There could possibly be a hint the first time you pop the map up or something along those lines. The idea is that there are ALOT of dynamic events and no so many heart events. The heart events also give less experience and players would learn that if the hearts gave them the aim of completing the dynamic events in the area. The simple fact that there are loads of dynamic events in the area would make it difficult for players to simply check them off.

@Krazzar - In your case this idea would simply give you a larger feeling of progression within the game since you'll visually see it on the map.

[RabidusIncendia]

Heart's are a ticklist.  If Anet removes them from map completion I'll say otherwise.  And it's not even a big deal, they get phased out completely by the end of the game.

[ShezuTsukai]

Hearts are Karma and Karma venders. These become important with needed equip improvement, recipe collection etc.

I'm not sure a progressive heart is necessary but drawing new players attention to heart events AND de's in some manner is. Right now both can be easily overlooked just exploring the vibrant world.

[Znake]

IIRC someone from Anet also did say, if you are completionist, they can be used as a ticklist. So they support the idea.

Edited by Znake, 08 August 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[Sieran]

I've had some dynamic event stuff count toward heart quests that aren't even on the same map compass. The boundaries seem a bit more arbitrary than a circle, and I think giving an approximation of the area would end up being more confusing than anything.

I like the hearts filling up as you progress, though. Logical visual feature given that they move from empty to whole. +1

[DrunkenMadKing]

I am a completionist so I do use them as a checklist.  It also helps guide you around the map somewhat.  I don't want to see them removed.  The way I handle some of them is if I don't like the primary way to get the checklist done I will watch for dynamic events in the area of the heart because there is usually some overlap to them.  This helps me get hearts done by killing two birds with one stone.

[Secticide]

@ShezuTsukai - You have a good point here, they would become more important when new gear is needed.

@Znake - This is exactly my point, currently, they are a ticklist to anyone and everyone. Unless you specifically play to explore the world. Completionist type players won't find it a difficult job at all to get the hearts out of the way currently, but with these changes; it would be harder for the casual player to checklist everything from day 1 and it will give completionist players more achievement when they get 100% on all of the hearts.

@wilarseny - Yeah, some of them probably wouldn't work with a circle at the moment but if they were shifted slightly; I'm sure most of them could have a circle to show the area. Thanks for supporting.

@DrunkenMadKing - All of that taken into account; wouldn't you prefer it with more challenge to complete them? While giving casual players more of a reason to get into dynamic events in the area of the hearts.

[roachsrealm]

if you hover your mouse over the current renown indicator in the upper right of your UI, it automatically does something somewhat similar on the compass, showing a glowing are around the heart which imo, was about the size of the "initial heart area".  There's even a progress bar under where your mouse is currently now sitting.

I think the problem is many of the renown hearts ranges are vastly different from each other.  There's one in the human lands that only occupies the space of a small farm field, and one in the sylvari area that encompasses one whole corner of a swamp.  I felt at one point I was too far away from it in order to benefit, but the progress bar still shown on my UI.

Its a neat idea, but it feels a little redundant or unnecessary with the existing systems in place.

[Secticide]

I don't think you are quite getting the idea of what I'm saying here. The current heart events would count toward the heart, visually filling it slightly. The circle around the heart would show the events in the area that count toward the heart, this area also includes dynamic events. Meaning that you can't simply move through a zone completing all of the heart events and thinking "I'm done now, lets move on" because there will still be a great deal of things to complete before the zone was complete.

[Tregarde]

While I can see what you're getting at, I don't think some of it is really necessary. It's not hard to figure that if you want to complete a Heart you can't wander too far away from it, and you can always return to the area if you do and won't lose anything. Showing DEs near the Heart would (in my opinion) take away some of the fun of exploring and coming across DEs unexpectedly.

Filling the heart on your map so you can check your progress I think would be a good idea. To be honest, I was kind of expecting that when I first logged in during a Beta Weekend.

[DrunkenMadKing]

Secticide, on 08 August 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I don't think you are quite getting the idea of what I'm saying here. The current heart events would count toward the heart, visually filling it slightly. The circle around the heart would show the events in the area that count toward the heart, this area also includes dynamic events. Meaning that you can't simply move through a zone completing all of the heart events and thinking "I'm done now, lets move on" because there will still be a great deal of things to complete before the zone was complete.

I see what you are saying, I am not for or against it.  Dynamic events I think in general most people need to learn not to simply finish one and walk away.  Dynamic events typically have a chain effect to them.  Once one is done an npc might state something and then the next stage occurs.  I often hang around and see and often experience a ton of dynamic events most people do.  I am on the fence about the game needing to show people things.  I think it removes some of the experience of discovery the beauty of reward for being patient.  By actually not rushing around a zone or in an area you see more of the hidden things and that to me is a huge reward.  Having big markers telling me to stay somewhere just seems I don't know how to describe it but it just makes me feel meh.

Not totally against it but again not really for it.  I hope I explained myself well enough.

[Secticide]

@Tregarde - I can totally see what you are saying here, you have found a flaw in the idea that I have been talking about with friends. The whole randomness of dynamic events are almost what make them so enjoyable and rewarding.

@DrunkenMadKing - I guess, what you saying is that people need to play the game more to learn the new playstyle of the game itself and not play it like other MMO's. Once people have jumped the first hurdle so to speak; they will know about the extra reward and achievement of enjoying chaining events and such like. Again, I completely agree.

[DrunkenMadKing]

Secticide, on 08 August 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

@Tregarde - I can totally see what you are saying here, you have found a flaw in the idea that I have been talking about with friends. The whole randomness of dynamic events are almost what make them so enjoyable and rewarding.

@DrunkenMadKing - I guess, what you saying is that people need to play the game more to learn the new playstyle of the game itself and not play it like other MMO's. Once people have jumped the first hurdle so to speak; they will know about the extra reward and achievement of enjoying chaining events and such like. Again, I completely agree.

Yes Secticide and again man not against you fully.  I just like the idea of everyone slowing down the pace they had in typical MMO's.  This game isn't a race to level to X level.  I know in other's it's a race due to other carrots.  This one to me has the carrot in front of you to enjoy the entire game at no matter what level.  If a person gets to 80 before you so what.  I just often would hang around a place to see what would happen next.  I understand that there needs to be a little guidance so I am not completely against what you say but at the same point I like the zone feeling like an adventure and that I discover things occurring.  So maybe having a toggle switch to suit both sides... I don't know.  

To me it's just not broken but rather people with not the right perspective on the game (and by that I mean the perspective of the game the developers had in mind of discovery and slowing your pace down to enjoy what they have put in).  Keeping it organic in the feel of the event.

There is something semi immersing when an attack ends and if you hang around one of the npcs says "You know these attacks won't end unless we take the battle to them."  most people have already run off, but for those that stay around we get rewarded with the next chain.  We travel with the npc to another place to do something and then when that is done we move to the next part in the chain.  I just find that fun without circles occurring.  It's sort of like how it would happen in RL.

Thanks for having a peaceful conversation on it.  Like your attitude when discussing.

[mdapol]

I don't think new players need to be "doing it right" immediately.  Since there are fewer and fewer hearts as they level up, they will naturally start doing DEs more and more and eventually realize the intended playstyle.  Remember, the leveling process is partially training players how the game works so that, when they are finally at level 80 they know what's what.

TL;DR - New players don't have to be "fixed" in the first 15 minutes.

Edited by mdapol, 08 August 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Secticide]

@DrunkenMadKing Yeah, I see what you are saying and agree. If you end up racing; you'll just miss the fun and have to come back to get it! (Which is a completely valid thing to do thanks to the down-scaling system). Of course, I'm not saying this is a "complete solution" by any means, but it does give players that are used to the typical MMO experience more guidance. A turn on/off option would be a good idea, however, I'm not sure how it would work. Thanks, I'd much rather a peaceful discussion of the pros and cons of a potential feature since the idea itself can get better based on criticism from all sides.

@mdapol - Yes, that's true and that's where this idea could help them. You say about fewer and fewer hearts being present in higher level zones, I've heard this from several people but have not seen it officially announced anywhere. If this is the case however, the problem isn't really a problem since that is a solution in itself.

[Treble]

I think they're "right" to be there. ANet's entire philosophy is to allow players to do what they want (to a point). Not everyone likes to explore aimlessly and discover things. Some like to be held by the hand. Having both dynamic events and heart quests allows players to play how they want to.

I actually think it's quite perfect. Players who aren't familiar with the manifesto or GW2's mechanics, and are just hopping on from other games, will be confused as hell if they're just thrown into a world full of DE's. With the way it is now, these players can quest like they're used to, and DE's will still pop up where they are. They'll get used to the DE system eventually, but it won't be a huge culture shock to them. Culture shock tends to scare people away from games, so it's good that these players can play the way they're used to.

Edited by Treble, 08 August 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Secticide]

@Treble - That's another good point, some people need the heart events or 'quests' how they are now. A possible work around for this could be to unlock the ability to fill the heart by completing the heart quest in the area or maybe even completing the zone 100% before this system comes into play. Does that sound better to you? Or do you feel it doesn't need to change from the systems currently in place?

[Izardoz]

I am not keen on the idea of even more indications of what is where, as far as content goes...discovery is a wonderful thing

also, as the developers will be adding new events to areas often, and removing some, as well, I am not sure how that would work with 100% map completion...unless there was a static number, but then that would remove the incentive to re-visit areas to see what new content may have been added

also, I believe it was Colin and Eric that talked about fewer hearts in higher level areas, culminating in zero in Arah, in the Twitch TV broadcast last week

Edited by Izardoz, 08 August 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Secticide]

@Izardoz - I totally agree with you, with every idea/solution there are going to be negatives. There would be a problem with adding/removing events and such but that could be solved in several ways. I'll have to check out the Twitch.tv, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I feel however, this would also be a good feature for the completionist players. Maybe it could be only available when level 80 is reached or another time like 100% completion of a zone (using the current system).

[Treble]

Secticide, on 08 August 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

@Treble - That's another good point, some people need the heart events or 'quests' how they are now. A possible work around for this could be to unlock the ability to fill the heart by completing the heart quest in the area or maybe even completing the zone 100% before this system comes into play. Does that sound better to you? Or do you feel it doesn't need to change from the systems currently in place?

I don't think it needs a change, tbh. A problem with having only DE's was evidenced during their very first beta test (friends & family only) where a dev pointed out that someone who knew nothing about the game was completely lost as to what to do. He was looking for quest givers but couldn't find one, and wrote that down as one of his complaints. I can't be arsed to find the interview (it was way back in December), but that was basically the gist of it. Something similar also happened with my brothers when I got them to play the beta. New events popped up and they had no idea what was going on. They literally asked me where to get quests until I explained it to them.

The system as it is now is good in that it allows players to choose without throwing it in their face. Those of us who like to explore will largely ignore the Heart system (unless it has a specific reward that we want).

The players who depend on NPC's to lead them will do the Heart quests, but will also undoubtedly end up taking part in a DE in their area, probably without even realizing it. They'll begin to notice that some quests trigger on their own, either in the middle of a Heart quest, or while running from one area to another. At that point, they can choose whether or not they like the DE system or the Heart system and decide from there.

Neither of these force either party to participate in the other. For completion's sake, sure. But that's more of a personal thing. However, in terms of what's better for the game overall, I think the current system is nearly perfect.

Edited by Treble, 08 August 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Secticide]

@Treble - The system is good at this current time, however, I believe there is an issue with what you are saying. Yes, if you are more of a player who likes to explore the world; you will encounter DE's and all will be well. The problem comes if you are a general MMO player, it was seen many times in the most recent beta that people were playing the zones like a check list. Admittedly, this is player choice, however it isn't a player choice when you don't get enough experience to progress through the zone (aka with a zone 100% complete you can move on to the next zone being under-levelled). This could get some players frustrated as they won't know why they are below the required level for the new zone. So, is this really a choice?

I completely agree that the current system solves several issues that have arose in the past within the different testing phases and of course, at the end of the day people can play how they want. It just becomes an issue when people can't play how they want and are not given the guidance to know otherwise. Can you see what I am getting at here?

[4arsie4]

Then they'll complain that its a bloody rail track. As it is, I already feel it is too guided, although I have to admit that people new to this, and are used to hand holding, do find themselves lost in GW2 for the first hour or so. Then their player type kicks in and they'll find their own way to proceed.

I don't think you can do anything for people who see an event pop up and are not curious about it. Grinders are going to grind, and they will become ragers who are going to rage. You cannot save everyone.

Combined with the story quest, there is enough exp to put players on par if not a little over by the time they get 100% completion of the 1-15 zone. If they have not sussed out the game by level 15, and have not realized that there are other racial cities and zones, the next story quest does bring them to LA. Passivity is a choice.

Edited by 4arsie4, 08 August 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[Secticide]

@4arsie4 Yes, with personal story involved as well as the 100% completion you will have enough experience. Also, you can't help everyone/keep everyone happy. I'm not saying that the current systems are bad just misleading for some players and in a world like today; as soon as you confuse a player without guidance they will rage (like you said). These players may be a bigger portion of the whole pie than you realise (of course, I could be wrong here) but with so many WoW clones along with WoW itself being so different in terms of content delivery, there are going to be a great deal of players who are left in the dark.

[Treble]

Secticide, on 08 August 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

@Treble - The system is good at this current time, however, I believe there is an issue with what you are saying. Yes, if you are more of a player who likes to explore the world; you will encounter DE's and all will be well. The problem comes if you are a general MMO player, it was seen many times in the most recent beta that people were playing the zones like a check list. Admittedly, this is player choice, however it isn't a player choice when you don't get enough experience to progress through the zone (aka with a zone 100% complete you can move on to the next zone being under-levelled). This could get some players frustrated as they won't know why they are below the required level for the new zone. So, is this really a choice?

I completely agree that the current system solves several issues that have arose in the past within the different testing phases and of course, at the end of the day people can play how they want. It just becomes an issue when people can't play how they want and are not given the guidance to know otherwise. Can you see what I am getting at here?

Yeah, I see what you're getting at. However, I was under the impression throughout beta that ANet wants us to explore the other races' areas along with our own. I also think that ANet intends for the areas to accustom people just enough to develop a balance between DE's and HQ's, sort of teaching people along the way to learn to complete them along with all the other sidequests and minigames within each zone without feeling like too much of a grind.

It might also serve to get people to participate in things like WvWvW as their other option for experience. I can't say exactly without going into the developers' heads, but my personal impression is that they were trying to tie the game's systems together without putting too much emphasis on one or the other. I never even touched the personal story since I left the starting zone, and I was doing fine reaching the next level (was even finishing ahead of schedule). Probably because I was so giddy and exploring everything, including WvWvW and the other zones. Can't say if others will do the same, but there's probably enough for them to do from what I've seen so far.

I also get the feeling that ANet wants to lead people to a certain degree in the style of other games, but only to a certain point. Once they reach that point, it's up to the player to decide if ANet's vision is the way they want to play their game. If not, that's when ANet lets go and just caters to those who like their game for what it is without trying to fall into the trap of attempting to please everyone but ending up pleasing no one.

Edited by Treble, 09 August 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[4arsie4]

Secticide, on 08 August 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

These players may be a bigger portion of the whole pie than you realise (of course, I could be wrong here) but with so many WoW clones along with WoW itself being so different in terms of content delivery, there are going to be a great deal of players who are left in the dark.

Personally, I give people more credit than that. Sure they will be confused for a while, and yes, ultimately some people will dislike having to find their own way around and will quit. The simple fact is that by starting the game, everyone will know that there are 5 races. Somewhere along the way everyone will see the odd member of another race running around their noob zone. I do not think that in an MMO, it is too much to ask that the player have a little curiosity and a little social skill to ask,"zomg, you're an Asura!?! how did you get here?!?!?!"

My problem is the opposite. I dislike how I need to constantly return to my home city to continue my story quest. Sure, I can skip it all and complete them after I reach 80 or whatever, but the quest rewards and exp are quite attractive, and it ties my leveling to my racial zones, when I want to skip around the other zones.

Edited by 4arsie4, 09 August 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[Xiondar]

I enjoy the hearts and best yet... they are optional. I do them anyway, because I HAVE to do everything for some uncontrollable reason.