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Arenanet and the future nerfs.

challenging content nerf

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#1 AnkaraKane

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:34 PM

This is something I have been a little concerned about and I would really like to know what the Guru Community's take on this is.

It is inevitable that after some point in the game people will start complaining about the content's difficulty. I think Anet said that higher level zones will become harder as you progress through the game (if anyone knows anything about this please post a link? :D) This can put Anet in a difficult position since everyone's skill on a game is different it can be hard to know what is challenging but doable (fun!) and what is actually impossible.

So, I guess my question here is:

Is Arenanet going to give in to pressure and nerf anything players define as 'too hard'?




*Keep in mind that a lot of the people playing the game (if not the majority) are casuals that may not be as experienced as others and can find harder content in an easier way.

#2 MikeFish

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:36 PM

In guild wars 1 they never nerfed their content to make it easier. In fact, when players found sneaky ways of making it easier, they often nerfed those instead. I wouldn't worry about being challenged in this game.

#3 sergel02

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:37 PM

I guess we'll see in the next couple months.

In any case, i think they'll probably buff and nerf classes before content.

#4 dawnq

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:37 PM

You must have missed where they said they wont make catacombs "easier" they will instead work in making sure the telegraphs are easier to see, and toning down particle effects. somewhere in one of the ama

#5 Bennyandthejets

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:47 PM

I really really hope they don't water down the content & make it easier.   The most fun I had in GW1 was critiquing my builds & becoming a better player.  I died "alot" (921 times last time I looked lol) but once I was able to recognize what I was doing wrong, success was sure to follow.

#6 IceyPain

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM

I think Arenanet is fully aware that those who are happy with the game will not be complaining. As much as they wouldn't want people to quit due to it being too difficult, they wouldn't want people to quit because there's no challenge either.
Developers usually don't make decisions based on complaining alone, they use several sources to verify if the collected evidence of a possible issue should issue a change.

Given that this is a game, people will complain about pretty much everything and to make things even worse, people tend to copy eachothers opinion as they use it to validate their own view of the game. Ideally we just need a lot of skilled players that show casuals how things can be done.

Personally I've found the game to be sufficiently challenging, but not that hard. Just because a player has a casual playstyle, doesn't mean that such a player can't learn to overcome his difficulty issues with the game. A major problem with a lot of players these days is that they do not think outside of the box. They aren't willing to experiment, and would rather have that the solution is given to them instead of discovering it on their own. So if I was in charge of Arenanet I wouldn't  want to change things too quickly.

#7 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM

View PostAnkaraKane, on 10 August 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

This is something I have been a little concerned about and I would really like to know what the Guru Community's take on this is.

It is inevitable that after some point in the game people will start complaining about the content's difficulty. I think Anet said that higher level zones will become harder as you progress through the game (if anyone knows anything about this please post a link? :D) This can put Anet in a difficult position since everyone's skill on a game is different it can be hard to know what is challenging but doable (fun!) and what is actually impossible.

So, I guess my question here is:

Is Arenanet going to give in to pressure and nerf anything players define as 'too hard'?




*Keep in mind that a lot of the people playing the game (if not the majority) are casuals that may not be as experienced as others and can find harder content in an easier way.

"Ahem"

#8 diggdugg

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:49 PM

View Postdawnq, on 10 August 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

You must have missed where they said they wont make catacombs "easier" they will instead work in making sure the telegraphs are easier to see, and toning down particle effects. somewhere in one of the ama


and ac is also the first dungeon instance you come across , you could almost call it the tutorial dungeon zone , so if they make things a bit easier , that would be why,

the people finding this game so difficult will either:

a/ learn to play the right way

b/ quit

c/ get higher lvl  (which in turn makes the dungeons a bit easier)

there will always be whiners --  that the game is too hard :qq:

anet is experienced in dealing with these types already  (its not by changing their game)

#9 Jentari

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:50 PM

Since Anet did a good job in GW1 I am not really worried about this.  My worry is that Anet finds that some skills tend to be over powered in sPvp (fine in pve) and they change them.  It did take Anet a few years to start seperating skills between pvp and pve.

#10 Shamadamun

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostMikeFish, on 10 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

In guild wars 1 they never nerfed their content to make it easier. In fact, when players found sneaky ways of making it easier, they often nerfed those instead. I wouldn't worry about being challenged in this game.

that's good to hear. My number 1 fear for this game is nerfs. With no challenge, what's the point? I don't want to play WoW, I want to play GW2 - so don't nerf it!

#11 Trolozaur

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM

I haven't played as much GW1 as some people on this forum, but in regards to this question, is it true that they've never nerfed content as MikeFish pointed out?

#12 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Ahem" *snip*
*facepalm*  Seriously?  You really think that's how Anet is going to leave it?  You are aware that the footage is from a stress test, right?

Edited by Strawberry Nubcake, 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM.


#13 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

*facepalm*  Seriously?  You really think that's how Anet is going to leave it?  You are aware that the footage is from a stress test, right?

And that makes it different from the actual game, why?
The stress test is just that, to test stress. Everything else is as game wise.
Honestly, some people are trying to defend it with some right dribble.

#14 xphenox123

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

*facepalm*  Seriously?  You really think that's how Anet is going to leave it?  You are aware that the footage is from a stress test, right?
comon not again this fkin retard video its the SECOND QUEST FOR LVL 2 people dont know how to dodge and stuff

#15 MikeFish

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:54 PM

Don't listen to the people posting videos about easy play. Anet has addressed that and they're ignoring the fact that it was too hard for average players to begin with. Attempting to find a difficulty balance for release and overshooting is a perfectly valid ITERATION.

#16 Neb

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Ahem"

Pre-Searing wasn't hard either.

What's your point? You want level 4 to be difficult?

#17 dawnq

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostTrolozaur, on 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

I haven't played as much GW1 as some people on this forum, but in regards to this question, is it true that they've never nerfed content as MikeFish pointed out?

Not suer about the Never but I do know that they have a habit of either nerfing the prof, or adding another mob/ add skills to mob that makes something op less op.

#18 MisterB

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:57 PM

View PostMikeFish, on 10 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

In guild wars 1 they never nerfed their content to make it easier. In fact, when players found sneaky ways of making it easier, they often nerfed those instead. I wouldn't worry about being challenged in this game.

Thunderhead Keep
Domain of Anguish
Battle for Lion's Arch
Winds of Change, various explorable areas and quests

Off the top of my head, all of those were reduced in difficulty from their original form due to player outcry.

Edit: See also dungeon spawns of those Incubus foes, I think it was Stormcloud Incubus, although the other varieties may have been reduced as well.

Edited by MisterB, 10 August 2012 - 06:00 PM.


#19 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostNeb, on 10 August 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Pre-Searing wasn't hard either.

What's your point? You want level 4 to be difficult?

Different style of game. Try again.

#20 IceyPain

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:03 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Different style of game. Try again.

Please do explain...

I really don't see how the style of game should change the general idea of "Difficulty scales as players get better".

#21 ImTasty

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Ahem"

It's already been addressed that this is a bug and the difficulty was not supposed to be that low. It's the same as how there were some DE bosses that were stronger than what they should of been *Fire Elemental*. Way to research something before complaining about it.

#22 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:06 PM

View PostIceyPain, on 10 August 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Please do explain...

I really don't see how the style of game should change the general idea of "Difficulty scales as players get better".

Go into pre solo and fight mobs that are bosses.
By solo I mean just that, solo. No henchmen.

Edited by Bloodtau, 10 August 2012 - 06:07 PM.


#23 davadude

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Different style of game. Try again.

But exactly the same concept.
Davadude - Guru Village Idiot

#24 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

And that makes it different from the actual game, why?
The stress test is just that, to test stress. Everything else is as game wise.
Honestly, some people are trying to defend it with some right dribble.
Posted Image

Oooookay... back on topic...
I don't think Anet is going to nerf everything people complain about.  They aren't stupid and a lot of the stuff people cry about is stuff that could be done easily if they learned from their mistake and tried a different approach.  Repeating the same mistake over and over and then crying about it is stupid.  I think Anet knows this.

#25 Trolozaur

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:12 PM

In regards to the difficulty:

Mike Ferguson, System Designer at ArenaNet:

Q: Is PVE difficulty back the way it was intended to be this stress test?
A: We are still looking at PvE difficulty, we'd like it to be close to BWE2 difficulty instead of BWE3



source: http://www.reddit.co...89_stress_test/

And before people keep complaining, remember right before BWE1 when they buffed up the difficulty because people considered the press beta too easy? This is an unreleased game and this is called iteration. Based on that, I'm sure the difficulty will be just fine in release.

Edited by Trolozaur, 10 August 2012 - 06:13 PM.


#26 IceyPain

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Go into pre solo and fight mobs that are bosses.
By solo I mean just that, solo. No henchmen.

So you want me to play a game of which the difficulty is scaled around being in a party, solo? How exactly would that give me an objective conclusion if I may ask?

#27 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostIceyPain, on 10 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

So you want me to play a game of which the difficulty is scaled around being in a party, solo? How exactly would that give me an objective conclusion if I may ask?

It was stated that pre was easy in GW1, in a party yes.
You can play GW2 forever in a party if you wanted to. In fact, content SHOULD be hard to get people to party up.

#28 Beta Sprite

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

View PostIceyPain, on 10 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

So you want me to play a game of which the difficulty is scaled around being in a party, solo? How exactly would that give me an objective conclusion if I may ask?

Pre-searing was built in a way that you could be solo the entire time.  Max group size was 2, and you didn't need that second person.  The game there was easy enough for one player, and was balanced around single, low-level characters.  Bloodtau was pointing out that early game was far easier than late game.

#29 MisterB

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 10 August 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Repeating the same mistake over and over and then crying about it is stupid.  I think Anet knows this.

Albert Einstein said:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein was a pretty smart guy. People repeating the same content using the same method and repeatedly failing should reconsider their approach, and question why they are repeatedly failing rather than continuing to fail.

#30 Nanfoodle

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:22 PM

Its rare that a MMO does not curve their game to gain more players. How soon ANet does this is yet to be seen. My guess it will happen within a few years. By then you have your fan base set and lower the skill level will result in very little loss of subs but has a greater chance of gaining new customers. Most MMOs I have played over the 14 years of MMOing have done this. Its just common and not new and shocking.




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