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Arenanet and the future nerfs.

challenging content nerf

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#31 Kramko

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

If GW1 is any indication -- they will continue adding harder content and challenge modes.

In GW1 they did add some things that made the game easier -- like heroes -- but the also added content was more difficult to make sure there were still challenging things to do once you had optimized heroes.

Level to 20 in GW1 -- fairly simple -- GW2 at level 4 can be easy in my book -- don't think there is anything wrong with having to work for more than 2 hours to earn difficult content :P

#32 MysticAngelic

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:27 PM

I certainly hope that Arena-Net will get it right between the difference of "challenging" and "impossible"
I honestly don't mind challenge content as end-game activities to do in game, so long the challenge is 100% friendly and viable for ALL professions.

Remember back in GW1, and you wants to join a UWSC or that typoe of elite content, you have to be playing that certain type of profession to be welcome in the group -Assassin, Ele, Mes, Monk, etc. No ones care if you have spent 200 hours into your warrior and only to find out it's one of the least favoured and useless profession in end-game elite content. What do you do? you hope that your "friend" will kindly take you in based on 2nd profession alternative or REROLL, end of story.

I hope A-net get it right this time and make EVERY profession viable and group friendly in ALL elite end game content. I don't want to spent X amount of time on a X profession only to find out that I CANNOT play certain end game content that I PAID for in this game.

Balancing =/= Nerf. Instead of nerfing the class, why not buff others to make them equally strong and viable? (Unless it's considered as an exploid or game breaking mechanic.)

I never understood why dev wants to nerf certain skills/build if the community favors it, and if it's not game breaking or an exploid.

If most customers like to buy "Big Mac" combo at macdonalds, the management isn't going to "nerf" Big Mac combo but instead make all other combos/meals more attractive to the public. It makes no sense to discourage what people favors or like. If they like the value or taste in Big Mac, Macdonalds isn't going to take out a tomato, a slice of beef, or a slice of lettuce or make it not taste as good as before so customers are forced to try out other difference combos to make their monthyly sales report looking "balaced".

#33 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostMysticAngelic, on 10 August 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:



Remember back in GW1, and you wants to join a UWSC or that typoe of elite content, you have to be playing that certain type of profession to be welcome in the group -Assassin, Ele, Mes, Monk, etc. No ones care if you have spent 200 hours into your warrior and only to find out it's one of the least favoured and useless profession in end-game elite content. What do you do? you hope that your "friend" will kindly take you in based on 2nd profession alternative or REROLL, end of story.

I hope A-net get it right this time and make EVERY profession viable and group friendly in ALL elite end game content. I don't want to spent X amount of time on a X profession only to find out that I CANNOT play certain end game content that I PAID for in this game.

Balancing =/= Nerf. Instead of nerfing the class, why not buff others to make them equally strong and viable? (Unless it's considered as an exploid or game breaking mechanic.)



Sadly this will be present in every game, GW2 won't be any different. There will defiantly be professions that players favour more than others in the more harder stuff and will be generally asking for them over any others.

#34 IceyPain

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostBeta Sprite, on 10 August 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Pre-searing was built in a way that you could be solo the entire time.  Max group size was 2, and you didn't need that second person.  The game there was easy enough for one player, and was balanced around single, low-level characters.  Bloodtau was pointing out that early game was far easier than late game.

Which was kind of what I was saying in my previous replies as well. But then there's this quote:

Bloodtau said:

Different style of game. Try again.

I still don't get what Bloodtau is trying to say though. Which is why I asked for him to explain, but the replies from him that followed don't really explain anything in my opinion.

#35 Kramko

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostIceyPain, on 10 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

So you want me to play a game of which the difficulty is scaled around being in a party, solo? How exactly would that give me an objective conclusion if I may ask?

I think it is a beautiful thing that ArenaNet is aiming to do with GW2 -- they are attempting to make playing solo and playing with other players rewarding and challenging using the same content.  If they can get scaling working the way they want it to playing alone and playing in a group will both be rewarding and engaging.

Yes, it is in their best interest to make playing with other players more rewarding than playing alone, which they have done -- but I for one am sick of feeling like I am wasting my time if I am not grouped an spending more than an hour at a time at the computer in other MMOs.

I work strange hours, I am preparing for law school, I have a girlfriend and I am a full time student. It is rare that I can sit down, find a group and then still have enough time to accomplish something productive.

Some may call it "casual" which is fine, but do not confuse casual with easy in GW2.  I've never been a hard-core-raiding-uber-pwnzor-pvp-god-super-l33t player -- but I am an engaged, thinking, motivated player none the less and GW2 is FINALLY creating a space where I can find and overcome challenging content without needing to put in hours and hours of time in a single sitting.

tldr:
GW difficulty is scaled around being in a party AND solo.  The game SCALES dynamically to the number of players -- which is unique.  It encourages grouping but does not punish people for soloing -- which, if they get it right, is something a lot of us have been waiting for.

#36 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostIceyPain, on 10 August 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Which was kind of what I was saying in my previous replies as well. But then there's this quote:


I still don't get what Bloodtau is trying to say though. Which is why I asked for him to explain, but the replies from him that followed don't really explain anything in my opinion.

I meant that you can't base the way GW2 plays and is designed on the mechanics and gameplay style of GW1. It's like saying TF2 is easy/hard because Counter Strike was.

#37 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostMikeFish, on 10 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

In guild wars 1 they never nerfed their content to make it easier. In fact, when players found sneaky ways of making it easier, they often nerfed those instead. I wouldn't worry about being challenged in this game.

Who needs to nerf content when "Save Yourselves!" exists?


View PostMysticAngelic, on 10 August 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Balancing =/= Nerf. Instead of nerfing the class, why not buff others to make them equally strong and viable? (Unless it's considered as an exploid or game breaking mechanic.)


Because that's exactly what broke GW1?

#38 Gregor Sabetin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:40 PM

They DID "nerf" GW1. Doing Prophecies with dumb players or weak henchmen and crappy skills is a real challenge. GWEN with heroes and PVE OP skills is piece of cake. Why did they introduce the hard mode? Normal mode had become WOW mode.

It'll be the same with GW2. But let's hope not too fast.

#39 ilr

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:42 PM

View PostMikeFish, on 10 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

In guild wars 1 they never nerfed their content to make it easier. In fact, when players found sneaky ways of making it easier, they often nerfed those instead. I wouldn't worry about being challenged in this game.

...much to our chagrin:
http://wiki.guildwar...k:_Defeat_Blarp
http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Rabid_Bear
http://wiki.guildwar.../wiki/Angorodon
http://wiki.guildwar...ki/Cartographer

#40 Alaroxr

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:43 PM

You're not forced into doing content that is currently too hard for you. If you so desire, instead of going to the 35-45 zones when you get to that level, you could do every 25-35 zone until you get better or get to be higher leveled than 35-45.

#41 chase128

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

Bloodtau, are you purposely ignoring the fact that Arena.net has addressed the difficulty issue and has plans to change it?

#42 IceyPain

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I meant that you can't base the way GW2 plays and is designed on the mechanics and gameplay style of GW1. It's like saying TF2 is easy/hard because Counter Strike was.

I would tend to disagree to a point.

If you base a general concept upon similarities in the game, it may work. Both games offer a leveling system and place you in a tutorial zone at the start of the game. The idea was that at level 2 the game shouldn't be challenging yet as you're still grasping how the game plays. This is still true for both games. This is also why that video doesn't prove anything.

View PostGregor Sabetin, on 10 August 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

They DID "nerf" GW1. Doing Prophecies with dumb players or weak henchmen and crappy skills is a real challenge. GWEN with heroes and PVE OP skills is piece of cake. Why did they introduce the hard mode? Normal mode had become WOW mode.

It'll be the same with GW2. But let's hope not too fast.

The whole idea of forcing people into parties to complete content was a stupid concept to begin with. Guild Wars 2 does not suffer from the same issues.

Edited by IceyPain, 10 August 2012 - 06:47 PM.


#43 Menehune

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:51 PM

View PostMisterB, on 10 August 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Albert Einstein was a pretty smart guy. People repeating the same content using the same method and repeatedly failing should reconsider their approach, and question why they are repeatedly failing rather than continuing to fail.

It could be that the method is totally correct, but your execution is lacking, e.g. getting stunned because you didn't dodge in time. In this case you should be repeating the same method until you get your timing right. Probably not the best example, but the principle hold. "Practice makes perfect". Method remains the same, results change over time.

#44 PlzNot

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 10 August 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

You're not forced into doing content that is currently too hard for you. If you so desire, instead of going to the 35-45 zones when you get to that level, you could do every 25-35 zone until you get better or get to be higher leveled than 35-45.

How would that work with level scaling though? Not disagreeing with you, just don't see how that would work with scaling.

In any case, I'm more worried about it being to easy. I don't mind getting owned now and then by a good challenge. Will keep it interesting down the line and give value to the "hard to get" items. If it's all a cake walk, then there's nothing to strive for.

I also understand the need for a difficulty progression. Lowering damage on lower level mobs is THE way to go I feel, but not so much as to remove the teaching mechanic of Dodge and "Keep Moving!".

Looking at Ettins (cause I liked them in BWE1 and 2), leave them with their one hit = down attacks. They are slow enough so if the player is standing there trying to tank, he/she will learn to MOVE. I know I did. hehe In BWE3 and still in the stress tests, poor Ettins are a joke of what they used to be. Player isn't going to learn to get better fighting them. They are going to learn they can tank Ettins; then they get to higher levels and cry nerf! - that's what I'm worried about.

#45 Alaroxr

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:57 PM

View PostPlzNot, on 10 August 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

How would that work with level scaling though? Not disagreeing with you, just don't see how that would work with scaling.

In any case, I'm more worried about it being to easy. I don't mind getting owned now and then by a good challenge. Will keep it interesting down the line and give value to the "hard to get" items. If it's all a cake walk, then there's nothing to strive for.

I also understand the need for a difficulty progression. Lowering damage on lower level mobs is THE way to go I feel, but not so much as to remove the teaching mechanic of Dodge and "Keep Moving!".

Looking at Ettins (cause I liked them in BWE1 and 2), leave them with their one hit = down attacks. They are slow enough so if the player is standing there trying to tank, he/she will learn to MOVE. I know I did. hehe In BWE3 and still in the stress tests, poor Ettins are a joke of what they used to be. Player isn't going to learn to get better fighting them. They are going to learn they can tank Ettins; then they get to higher levels and cry nerf! - that's what I'm worried about.

Getting to 100% in Gendarran Fields in BWE3 (even while there was the difficulty bug), there was still a lot of challenging content. A lot of it.

As for the scaling, you can definitely level in zones that are one tier below your level.

#46 Killyox

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:02 PM

View PostMikeFish, on 10 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

In guild wars 1 they never nerfed their content to make it easier. In fact, when players found sneaky ways of making it easier, they often nerfed those instead. I wouldn't worry about being challenged in this game.

Yeah. I had some sweet solo farming spots with my elementalist. Then they added some nasty stuff and messed it up. :D

#47 Marooned

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:09 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Ahem"
that was hilarious! pretty good. but its just a begginer area, it should be easy.

I find dungeons way too hard, they should be easier on the story mission run, I'd say beatable even without a full team. nothing wrong with being hard as hell for ppl that wants some real challenge, but optional is the word

Edited by Marooned, 10 August 2012 - 07:10 PM.


#48 Darkobra

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

And that makes it different from the actual game, why?
The stress test is just that, to test stress. Everything else is as game wise.
Honestly, some people are trying to defend it with some right dribble.

Don't drag this thread into the ground like you did your own.

#49 Leikin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:14 PM

Here is one who does have a point

#50 Tregarde

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:20 PM

Judging by ArenaNet's history with the original Guild Wars, they are very good at finding a balance where things are challenging but not impossible. Anytime I found something "too hard" I just had to spend time to learn my profession better, experiment with different builds, learn how to set up my Heroes better, and go back and try again. So I'm not worried about GW2's difficulty.

Edited by Tregarde, 10 August 2012 - 07:20 PM.


#51 Tavio

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostMisterB, on 10 August 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Thunderhead Keep

that one was justified, in the sense that:

the mursaat had a 1 hit kill for uninfused players
you had to protect an npc
npc was uninfused
npc died in less than a second

granted, it was the duty of the players to protect him, but there are things that we have to agree, if they are out of control of the player, need to be toned down a bit.

now, if this speaks of anything, we can see that the game will have its hard parts, and only very specific content is going to be changed or "nerfed", so i think its safe to say there wont be so much areas affected liek that

#52 Darkobra

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostLeikin, on 10 August 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Here is one who does have a point

And this guy actually knows what he's talking about.

#53 MisterB

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:37 PM

View PostMenehune, on 10 August 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

It could be that the method is totally correct, but your execution is lacking, e.g. getting stunned because you didn't dodge in time. In this case you should be repeating the same method until you get your timing right. Probably not the best example, but the principle hold. "Practice makes perfect". Method remains the same, results change over time.
This is true, and that is one reason I said they should reconsider and question their method when that method results in failure, rather than abandoning it outright. If execution is at fault or suspected, repetition and persistence can overcome the obstacle by increasing player proficiency.

View PostTavio, on 10 August 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

that one was justified ...

I was just pointing out that difficulty in GW1 has in fact been reduced, and citing examples. I agree that protecting an NPC with suicidal  tendencies in AI that is also vulnerable to a OHKO that is spammed by a multitude of foes is aggravating. I would have preferred if they had first infused the king before adjusting spawn frequency and numbers. Players who weren't infused at THK deserved any dirt naps.

#54 Linfang

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:49 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Ahem"

That guy handed my ass to me in BWE1. Fighting him in such a small area with that hammer hurt. There are a handful of Enemy NPC's that dont fight back.

#55 Nanfoodle

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:18 PM

This video says it all. Its what any seasoned MMOer would expect.

View PostLeikin, on 10 August 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Here is one who does have a point

Edited by Nanfoodle, 10 August 2012 - 08:20 PM.


#56 Neb

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:48 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

It was stated that pre was easy in GW1, in a party yes.

Pre-searing was easy solo too. The only somewhat difficult part was at the very end if you did the optional across the wall stuff. And even that was only relatively difficult.

Games are supposed to teach people how to play first. That is how it works. Creating a barrier at level 2-4 would do the exact opposite of teaching. Difficulty should go up slowly, not hit a new player in the face like a brick wall.

Edited by Neb, 10 August 2012 - 08:49 PM.


#57 rlh445

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostShamadamun, on 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

that's good to hear. My number 1 fear for this game is nerfs. With no challenge, what's the point? I don't want to play WoW, I want to play GW2 - so don't nerf it!

You always have the option of taking off your amor and weapons, going stag, and hitting a hard dungeon.

Quote

I get the very strong impression that some people have forgotten the game isn't even officially live yet.  They talk with expectations of other players like people have been playing the game for months, and should be able to respond to things as such.  At the end of the day, how the community views the game from three to six months after launch isn't the way they'll view it at launch.

/thread.

Edited by rlh445, 10 August 2012 - 09:42 PM.


#58 ShyIsShy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:20 PM

View PostShamadamun, on 10 August 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

that's good to hear. My number 1 fear for this game is nerfs. With no challenge, what's the point? I don't want to play WoW, I want to play GW2 - so don't nerf it!

View PostBloodtau, on 10 August 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

"Ahem"

You're implying that WoW can be played in ones sleep. WoW still has certain challenges to it, they just made it a lot easier to access.

In addition, to the scrub who posted the video:
1) Level 3-4 Solo Quest
2) The game was tremendously bugged during this stress test. Including that boss.
3) Level 3-4 SOLO Quest

This video does not show what the endgame will be like in any way shape or form. Don't make assumptions. It makes you look like the rest of the sub-100 IQ sheep that populate this dreadful rock.




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