If Charr and Asura went into all out war.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:03 AM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:29 AM
Another thing is that the "let's rule out that any of the other races exist" part of this hypothetical situation significantly boosts their situation. Without ghosts and ogres to deal with the charr would have a two front war to deal with (the 'free' legions vs. the Flame Legion) rather than a three front war (or even four front without the cease fire with Kryta in Ebonhawke).
This hypothetical can get far more complicated though because without the humans the charr would have never been driven from Ascalon in the first place which means their society would probably look far different. For better or for worse, the tragedies over the years such as the Flame Legion and the Foefire have lead to the chain of events that have driven the charr forward both socially/diplomatically and technologically.
Science is not alien to the Charr remember. I think one thing to note is that while the Charr are divided when it comes to opinion the vast majority of them respect the chain of command, though that's just getting into further detail. For example, very early in the game it's clear the charr are developing technology to trap ghosts into containers (a nod to Ghostbusters I'm sure) and are developing
I think you underestimate charr technology. I doubt the asura could freely fly over the citadel and hover a gate to drop stuff. Also of note is that charr engineers work around the gates and have rigged the one in the Black Citadel with a self destruct mechanism. I would be very surprised if the charr do not at least have a basic understanding of the gate technology, and while I doubt they have the knowledge to build them on their own they probably have engineers and spys that know more about tham than the asura would like them too.
Yeah civil war would be the easiest way for them to win. Remember however that they are already at war with the Flame Legion remnants. I'm not sure that the asura would want to ally with the Flame Legion either considering their obsession with creating another god to worship, and then dominate the world with.
The asura canonically have inferior technology to the charr. While it may be exaggerated boasting for example, a charr engineer in the black citadel says that while she's uncomfortable that in the name of diplomatic relations they are allowing an asuran delegation to tour their facilities, she doesn't care if they learn how to mix a few alloys because their designs are centuries behind. I don't know if they are really centuries behind, but canonically the charr are far more advanced than the others technologically. The asura specialize in magic and magical constructs, and though I know very little about the asura compared to the charr it's been made clear by the developers that the charr are in fact the most technologically advanced.
The asura have a better understanding of all things magical but the charr are more advanced when it comes to the physical machinery. I totally agree that the easiest way for the asura to win would be to trigger another charr civil war. It's been stated in a lore interview that the Iron Legion Imperator's greatest fear is just that.
The charr haven't done so because magic use is taboo due to the Flame Legion's actions in the past. If they actually wanted to, they very likely could do it given time. Granted, the asura have the advantage of already knowing how to do this however their physical technology is nowhere near on the level of what the charr have. If the two combined their technological and magical advancements they would become a collective superpower.
If Charr were capable of marrying technology and magic they would have done it by now. Their magic users are a minority and Asura magi-tech is simply beyond their understanding.
I'm not sure that either side could outright win, and I agree with many of the points made even if it seems a common misconception that the asura are more advanced technologically. I'm certainly not saying the charr are so far advanced as to overwhelm the asura, since the asura are quite advanced in their own way, but they are further ahead when it comes to mechanical innovation.
Edited by Zunnash, 13 August 2012 - 06:34 AM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:25 AM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:45 AM
Charr are united (sans Flame and Renegades).
Charr would eliminate asura by the pure fact that asura do not work together. Same goes for fighting norn.
Isn't there a bit of lore that talks about how the Charr and Norn used to be enemies but every time a Charr warband went after the Norn it was never seen again? While the Norn are individualistic, they are also known to work together when a challenge is compelling enough.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:33 AM
Asura could also mass produce trash golems. Ones with intent to give a decent fight but be slaughtered by the millions and destroy their internal processors to stop reverse engineering. If they set those to only fight one of the legions, that legion would get a big head and try to command the others as they're having more "success". Enter another war.
They would outnumber, they would outmaneuver, they would out build, they would out think, they would win.
Asura solve equations all the time. They finish what they start. What have Charr done? Humans, Ghosts, Flame Legion, and many of their old enemies still walk Tyria. Why?
I don't think Charr are as good of warriors as they think they are. Sure they can survive, but can they win?
Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:53 AM
The most basic model of golem is created to be durable(and asuras have golems imbued with magic skills so count them like mix of warrior and elementalist) but how about other designs - faster, smaller, more lethal.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:42 AM
Charr would eliminate asura by the pure fact that asura do not work together. Same goes for fighting norn. Only humans and sylvari would have a chance against charr in an all-out war. Of playable races, that is.
Here I disagree. In my eyes, the norns of today could stop the might of the Legions (the Mouvement seems to talk about the norn from 250 ago) : they are more united than ever before in their history (even the Sons would fight the Charrs); furthermore, their environment play in their favoir : ice, blizzards, narrow passes in the mountains, etc...
And here, it's without the Jotuns, Modniir and Dredge who would join the fray, the dangerous monsters, etc... The Shiverpeaks are probably one the most atrocious battlefield for anyone but their natives.
But, on topic, it's the Charrs, without a doubt, who would win such a war. They have the better spies, the better battle engineer and the most savage warriors. And expect their magics users (sans the Flame Legion... or should we count them in ?).
Edited by Valmir, 13 August 2012 - 11:12 AM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:41 PM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:54 PM
What have Charr done? Humans, Ghosts, Flame Legion, and many of their old enemies still walk Tyria. Why?
I don't think Charr are as good of warriors as they think they are. Sure they can survive, but can they win?
The only ennemies the Asura had to face were the Destroyers, who completly crushed out the Asura and pushed them to the surface... The Charr can have many ennemies, they still win. Humans of Ascalon are totally broken, the ghosts themselves can't push them back and the Flame Legion has loosed the war. And the Charr did all of this alone.
While Asura always look for a peaceful way to not go into war.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:06 PM
if the char would launch somewhat of a surprise attack at the start of the war, with full force
on the asura then it could turn out quiet fatal for the asura. if the asura are given time
to prepair for this war then they would probably just invent something powerfull, like maybe
some disease that's very contiguous but takes a while to activate.They could also mass produce golem or devices
to ruin the environment/mobility of the char area.
The thing is char do have advantigues because there already on there peek when it comes to war,
Asura on the other hand would be rather new to the concept, but if they would have to focus on war
and get some time to adapt and build weapons it's highly likely that they would win.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:45 PM
A suprise attack could destroy the capital of either charr or asura depending on what they send through the gate.
And if the charr hit the asura fast enough they could even use other gates to suprise other citys and laboratories while the asura could only destroy the black citadell with the gate lost (because the charr would blow it up).
And remember, we already know what happens when asura are hit by a suprise attack: They lose. Because as far as i remember the Destroyers destroyed the probably fortified underground empire of the asura pretty quickly and destroyers are only elementals with good organisation (as long as the boss is alive and awake). Destoryers had neither magic tech nor steampunk tech. Just a little bit magic, power and moving rocks on fire
And charr are charr with good organisation and steampunk tech. So i would say the charr win.
And with the others races none existent: would these parts of the world simply be vacant or belong to asura/charr? Then they would share a border and the charr wouldn't have to travel all the way from ascalon.
And if the human vs charr wars had never happend the charr could still have a khan-ur, making them even stronger (assuming the humans/gods assassinated the khan-ur)
Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:11 PM
Asuras have hidden hideouts with prototype weaponry and they are unsiegeable because they can get resources from far away through gates and charr cant.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:34 PM
Charr have been battling forever. It's their bread and butter. Naked Charr will tear to pieces naked asura. Tech wise Charr are more advanced than asura when it comes to pure technology while asura are more advanced in terms of magic combined with tech. Asura got golems but charr have tanks, cars and mechanical robots as well.
They are militaristic race with everyone being trained since early life. Their organisation is top notch and they are great strategists as well.
Working against them would be the fact that they still battle Ghosts and Flame Legion so if they fought asura it would be 1v3. Still asura fight inquest as well. In case it would be ONLY asura vs charr, charr would stomp all over asura.
Charr got fighters (blood legion) assassins/scouts (ash legion) and engineers/machines of war (iron legion)
Charr > asura
Things built by asura malfunction in 99% cases at some point
Edited by Killyox, 13 August 2012 - 02:37 PM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:52 PM
Charr are brave cool and all, but what chances do they have with their tanks vs race that can produce little ironman suits?
Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:58 PM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:13 PM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:15 PM
Airships have already been built. It looks like Charr technology but we don't know yet, I'm assuming it's Charr because of the Steampunk look.
If the charr went for a quick victory before the asura got off their high horses and realise that they are a serious threat then the charr will win. If the war dragged too long the asura will use their technology to get a edge. Like maybe develop aircraft since they aleady have floating devices.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:16 PM
The charr did not wipe out the humans, humans did it to themselves. Charr attempted to conquer three human nations, they failed on two. Orr, both humans and charr killed because a human, tricked by a demon, used an ancient magic scroll to sink Orr. Call it a draw. Mursaat aiding the White Mantle (for their own reasons) stopped charr invasion of Kryta cold. Charr only managed to conquer Ascalon. The charr were a threat to humans at all only because decades of Guild Wars destroyed the unity that once existed between Ascalon, Kryta and Orr and weakened each nation at the same time. The humans did not stand together against the charr.
Edited by Ramei Arashi, 13 August 2012 - 03:28 PM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:39 PM
- Warp the time-space-continuum to crunch all of Charr into the size of an atom, or
- Teleport all charr into hyperspace where they will be wiped from history
- Brute strenght and some magic
- Some technology, but not at the same level as the Asura
I'd say Asura could win if they react fast enough. The first attack from the Charr will cause a lot of Asura casualties, but eventually Asura will probably win.
Edited by Censtudios, 13 August 2012 - 03:40 PM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:50 PM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:24 PM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:42 PM
All the asura would have to do is shut down the gates and way points and the charr aren't going anywhere quickly. Even better, redirect all the gates so they send the charr to Orr. Let Zaithan take them out. Remeber one race alone is no match for the elder dragons.
The Charr had launched an all out war to Orr, Ascalon and Kryta 250 years ago. They had launch a true blitzkrieg without the Asura gates, they even got as far as Arah's doors, if I remember well. They don't need these gates to crush the asura. The have a more resilient tech, which could be repaired faster than the asura's magitech (see the Norn drunkard storyline, where a war chariot with incorporated canon is destroyed and is effective again some hours later).
Edited by Valmir, 13 August 2012 - 04:48 PM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:48 PM
It's either game depending on the circumstances.
They're both unpredictable and cunning.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:53 PM
But the general lack of co-ordination and militarisation as well as inbuilt beurocratic process makes them slow to respond and limited in number, they'd be very vulnerable to a blitzkrieg style assault. Additionally, they are also a race with their back to the wall. They've fortified their position well and recovered considerably in the 200-250 years since the destroyers chased them out of the depths, but they still represent a race in exile the bulk of their population is now isolated or dead.
Contrast that to the charr who are well established in their native homelands and are at the peak of their civilisation, have a militarised society of which almost the entire population is a service ready soldier; logically they should out-number the asura by a vast amount having not recently encountered an existential crisis and have military experience second to none.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:02 PM
The humans (ok, with the mursaat huge help) defeated the charr back in the day by taking down their leaders, wich lead to infighting. The asura are smarter, they may not be physically superior, but they have golem battlesuits, and golems. Charr also have some impressive war machines but i doubt they can match asura technology.
The main advantage of the charr is that they are battle hardened, something the asura don't seem to be.
By the way, if we take out the dragons from the picture, we can admit that the asura must have a great civilization under the earth, something the charr most certainly have not, giving the asura more ground to maneuver, they can even be beneath charr land.
Edited by The_Blades, 13 August 2012 - 05:13 PM.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:38 PM
Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:00 PM
1. The Asuran labs and krewes are scattered and hidden which would make for a poor first defense, but would make for a great guerilla war.
2. The Asuran cam move back underground if needed that would allow them rebuild their society, rebuild their war machines and to strike anywhere.
3. The Charr are so centralized that a few massive explosive strike would be enough to wipe out the Charr command structure.
4. If the Asurans can get underground golem factories where they can mass produce golem 24/7 they would win, it takes years to raise a soldier but days to produce a golem and even a 1-1 kill ration mass prodction wins.
Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:34 PM
If they could fine tune that, they could dominate the planet!
Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:43 PM
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