360 replies to this topic

[soloria]

Crosier, on 13 August 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

It would swiftly devolve to a lengthy guerrilla war, I imagine. Rata Sum would fall and officially the Charr would be victorious, but many different isolated krewe's would develop many different technologies and weapons. Every fight would be unpredictable for the Charr and over the years, shadowy and highly mobile groups of Asura armed with experimental tech would inflict significant losses on the Charr forces occupying their lands.

Dont forget, the asura have the gates..they can move forces much faster than the charr.

[Verdian_Hawkeye]

soloria, on 13 August 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Dont forget, the asura have the gates..they can move forces much faster than the charr.

Gates can easily be destroyed

EDIT: it's much easier to break things than it is to build them

Edited by Verdian_Hawkeye, 13 August 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Bilateralrope, on 12 August 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Asura control the Asura gates. That means the Asura can move troops and material around much quicker.

The Asura are also the race with flight. The Charr simply don't have anything to counter the Asura parking a gate above the Black Citadel, out of range of Charr guns, and dropping rocks on it.

The airships seen in the trailer (and helicopter from concept art if they make into the game) look like they're (mostly) charr technology based. And what "race with flight" - the asuran flight is levitation which isn't really mobile, we just have a case of "can be lifted off the ground" and nothing else with them.

Also, in order to use asura gates, they need to have an end-point. Which means they have to get to the end-point manually, then set up a gate, then tune both gates to the correct frequency. That's quite some time.

Bilateralrope, on 12 August 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Thing is, all six of those opinions will be on how to end the war with the Charr. Maybe one suggestion of negotiating peace, with 5 more positions on how the Asura will fight back.

Thing is, they'll still be in opposition to each other, even if they're for the same thing. If you played Eye of the North, you'll remember when we first meet the asura - they couldn't settle on a decision until the Arcane Council leader decided to veto everyone else's opinion and put his foot down. And back then, they were more united than now because they had the whole case of "we're in a world we don't know, forced out of the world we did know, we can't survive if we bicker" whereas that attitude is now gone and replaced with "we have learned the world and we can conquer it!"



Also, the charr have something the asura do not: experience in war. They've fought for well over a millennium and their society is proof of it. They are the only of the major races to have a nation extending past the in-game map, and for the past 200 years have been fighting a 4-sided war and winning. Asura got pushed out by the destroyers, their empire collapsed, and charr? They were attacked by the Dragonbrand and Kralkatorrik itself only to shrug it off and keep fighting. Forcefields? Destroy the generators. Golems? Tanks, submarines, airships(?), and superior numbers and tactics. Magitech? Magic and technology - separated but still powerful (hell, even charr use magitech, and you'd know this if you played through the Iron Legion storyline where they have a gun that can more effective destroy ghosts).

And besides that, not all asura would be in the war, but all charr would.

[soloria]

Verdian_Hawkeye, on 13 August 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Gates can easily be destroyed

EDIT: it's much easier to break things than it is to build them

This is true, but the charr arent going to invade norn or human area's are they?
Both of those races also rely on the asuran gates for trade and the shuffling of forces.
While the charr may destroy all gates in the citadel and surrounding area's they have sovereignty over

The asura still have access to the others, putting their forces closer to the charr in a shorter amount of time than the charr to the asura.

[Eon Lilu]

Eon Lilu, on 12 August 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

Asuran's, easily would kick the charr's backside through strategy, superior intellect and superior tech. Easiest way would be to get the charr to destroy each other, rivalry is huge in the charr between the diiferent legions, would not be too hard to get them to start fighting each other, throw in a few flame legion spy's to start a civil war, then gain the flame legion as allies and use them to destabilize the charr and cannon fodder against the charr, then disable the charr's portal's to take away there mobility and ability to fight back without long disance and long supply lines.

Wait for them to weaken themselves to the point the Asurans can just walk in with a massive army of golems and turrets and sit on the Iron throne with very little resistance. Turn all charr into pet cats and name them all my precious bookah.

War over job done.

I forgot to add that the asurans have the ability to create nukes, the charr do not, large explosive devices but nukes nahhh....Asurans win by nuking the black citadel. Game over. Now all charr are asuran glow in the dark radioactive pet cats and called my precious.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 13 August 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[maniacshoter]

the asura are a scientist race , not warriors or soldiers  , they may know  technology and have better defense systems  but they don't have war knowledge as the charr have , they don't know the strategies of war  , heck they never fought a war with another(playable) race , they would be crushed by the Charr in no time , most likely the asura would flee somewhere else  like they did before

[Verdian_Hawkeye]

soloria, on 13 August 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

This is true, but the charr arent going to invade norn or human area's are they?
Both of those races also rely on the asuran gates for trade and the shuffling of forces.
While the charr may destroy all gates in the citadel and surrounding area's they have sovereignty over

The asura still have access to the others, putting their forces closer to the charr in a shorter amount of time than the charr to the asura.

Oh ok, I thought you were saying they could just waltz into the citadel. My bad. I still think charr would win based on strategy and siege (especially if they could manage to locate and destroy all Asura gates outside rata sum).

[Alaroxr]

Charr have an organized, coordinated, and experienced army.

Asura have golems.

Charr win.

------------

As much as I prefer intelligence and individuality, coordination wins wars.

Edited by Alaroxr, 13 August 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[soloria]

Eon Lilu, on 13 August 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

I forgot to add that the asurans have the ability to create nukes, the charr do not, large explosive devices but nukes nahhh....Asurans win by nuking the black citadel. Game over. Now all charr are asuran glow in the dark radioactive pet cats and called my precious.

\


It wont be that simple..

See the asura's, before they declare war would have to somehow settle their differences between each statistical college in order for them to perform as a unit for the greater good.
Not only do most of the asura's not get along they are also fighting amoungst themselves (inquest). If the charr got a hold of inquest technicians then their technological disadvantage would diminish greatly.

[AngryTom]

I love this topic. But really, it would be a long and bloody campaign.
Charr do have tanks, cowtapults, trained skelks, and a history as well as societal tendency towards war and violence.
Asura are (i guess) the smartest, so it might actually be that they'd invent a WMD before the Charr, or lacking that, having countermeasures if the Charr developed a WMD first.

If the Asura are any sort of smart they would shut down all the gates, create some sort of disrupter to mess with other portals.
Charr would get all upset, create a massive seige tank, like a Sandcrawler, start driving on top of the Asura.

Asura nuke the Charr. Charr eat the Asura. All die of cancer.

Or something like the Genophage plauge.

Edited by AngryTom, 13 August 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

soloria, on 13 August 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

This is true, but the charr arent going to invade norn or human area's are they?

The OP said to assume other races don't exist. So there'd be no norn or human lands to invade in this theoretical war.

[soloria]

Verdian_Hawkeye, on 13 August 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Oh ok, I thought you were saying they could just waltz into the citadel. My bad. I still think charr would win based on strategy and siege (especially if they could manage to locate and destroy all Asura gates outside rata sum).

Charr would win because they have one of the most important aspects of war.
Spies.
Charr have an entire legion dedicated to espionage, assassinations, and deception

[soloria]

Konig Des Todes, on 13 August 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

The OP said to assume other races don't exist. So there'd be no norn or human lands to invade in this theoretical war.

I didnt see that anywhere in the OP :I

If we are to assume that no other races exist then I dont see the charr being pushed to the point where they need to advance in the aspect of war.

It was the appearance of humans that pushed the charr to what they are now, if I am to assume correctly, because it was the humans that invaded and took most of the charr homelands.
It was the ascalonian walls that brought about the invention of the flame legions cauldrons of cataclysm.

If the charr were to meet the asurans ( and not meet the humans) and push them out of their home and to the point where their survival depends on the knowledge of war, then the asurans would wipe them out, because they would have a reason to build technology for war, and not just for the fun of it.

Edited by soloria, 13 August 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Mizzory]

binidj, on 12 August 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Sadly, though I love Charr dearly, it is clear to me that the Asura would win.

Superior Mobility
Charr couldn't risk using waypoints or gates, indeed one of their first priorities would have to be to dismantle all the Asuran transport devices they could find. The Asura on the other hand can use their own technology with impunity, thus being able to hit the Charr on pretty much any front they choose ... difficult to mount a decent defence when you don't know which direction your enemy will be coming from. By the same token, any Charr attack on Rata Sum will be relatively predictable because they simply aren't mobile enough to circle round the Maguuma jungle.

Superior Defences
The Asura have force fields, the Charr have armour. Just in terms of resources alone the Asura have the edge because their ability to defend a large surface area is limited only by the amount of magical energy they have access to (this is an unknown quantity but looking at the city of Rata Sum, they have access to quite a lot) whereas the Charr would actually have to build their armour. Granted the Black Citadel is already pretty well fortified but I think that Asuran field magitech is likely to win out over plate steel.

Adaptability and Predictability
Charr are fairly predictable in their approaches to war, they're very good with those approaches but it pretty much boils down to throwing sufficient munitions at a thing to break it. Asura on the other hand have a ridiculous array (6 completely different weapons for every 5 individuals wasn't it?) of approaches, many of which will doubtless fail but many of which will succeed. Because of Charr unity, the Asura will only have to come up with a limited number of defensive strategies ... they will have thousands; whereas because of Asuran diversity the Charr will have to come up with eighteen different defences for every single assault.

Golems sir ... Faasands of 'em
Charr infantry is Charr, Asuran infantry is golems. While golems aren't indestructible by any means (unless you count one-offs like Sandy) they're still going to prove a significant challenge, given that the Asura can use their superior mobility (see above) to dictate where any battle takes place so the Charr won't be able to bring their numerical superiority to bear.

Steamtech vs. Magitech
While the Asura don't understand how Charr technology works at the moment (based on a conversation overheard in Rata Sum) chances are that they'd be able to reverse-engineer it without too much trouble. If the Charr were to capture an Asuran device however, they would find it much harder to reverse engineer because, well, there's nothing to engineer. Asuran technology appears to be pretty much solid-state, so figuring out what it does and replicating that will be a much harder task than doing the same with a Charr device. After all, when faced with (say) the Enigma Device and a pocket calculator, I reckon the former would be easier to replicate than the latter assuming you weren't at all familiar with either technology.

So yeah, the Asura would win, and a Charr without an Asuran control collar would be a rare sight indeed.

One point I want to throw out there... they have golems... in the starting area they had trouble controling their own machines... maybe their machines are too much for them to even handle.

The charr would take this and use it. Find the golem.. give it to the engieers and magic users.. they'll figure it out.

Then they strike that weakness.

[Tenicord]

I think the moral is, A.Net did a good job with showing how/why things are the way they are. Neither will "win" and thus they must work together or at the very least coexist.

[Lyssa's Muse]

Mizzory, on 13 August 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

The charr would take this and use it. Find the golem.. give it to the engieers and magic users.. they'll figure it out.

If Charr were capable of marrying technology and magic they would have done it by now. Their magic users are a minority and Asura magi-tech is simply beyond their understanding.

[Ambitious]

soloria, on 13 August 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Charr would win because they have one of the most important aspects of war.
Spies.
Charr have an entire legion dedicated to espionage, assassinations, and deception

I guess the asura would be arrogant enough to ignore the big cat people standing around, spying.

Edited by Ambitious, 13 August 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[soloria]

Ambitious, on 13 August 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

I guess the asura would be arrogant enough to ignore the big cat people standing around, spying.

Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local spies; (2) inward spies; (3) converted spies; (4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies.
-Sun Tzu

[Eon Lilu]

Alaroxr, on 13 August 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Charr have an organized, coordinated, and experienced army.

Asura have golems.

Charr win.

------------

As much as I prefer intelligence and individuality, coordination wins wars.

Pack a charr looking robot golem with spatial distortion and camo mimicry light device, put a nuke inside.....watch it walk into the black citadel and get ready for the big mushroom cloud over the charr's heads.

gf Charr. War won without even firing a shot Now inslave the charr race as pet cats called my precious.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 13 August 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[Lutinz]

Id put two things into this thread.

First, I dont think those airships are charr design or at least I dont think they are entirely charr design.  They just dont look it.  They are too streamlined and sleek.  Compare them to the other Iron Legion warmachines and they really stick out.  Even the Barracuda is pretty spiky and chunky.  I would expect them to be a joint construction or from one of the other races.

Secondly, the G.O.L.E.M. project in GW:EN was designed to produce golems quickly to counter Destroyers plus teleport those golems to the front line.  We also see some pretty large scale golem foundries in private labs (Oola's Lab).  Id say that if the tech was thrown together before there would be very little to stop it being reconstructed or repurposed to be used against a Charr invasion.

Edited by Lutinz, 13 August 2012 - 02:27 AM.

[xphenox123]

golem will lock missile on chars tails..

[Di-Dorval]

The Charr would have the upper hand at first. Until some random Asura invent some insane machine. In the end Asuras would probably win or eradicate all life on the planet... The thing is that a single Asura is already a very unpredictable and dangerous thing.. I wouldn't provoke them..

And for the people talking about the foe fire : it was a power given by the titans to the Charr. The Charr aren't with the titans anymore and thus dosn't  have access to such magic.

Edited by Di-Dorval, 13 August 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[Fancy Fool]

Charr assault the Asura and they suffer great casualties! After all Charr have the greater army and would probably be the first to strike, probably from surprise.

Then the surviving Asura flee into the earth whence they came and carve out a harsh existence pushing against the elder dragon's minions, but in their secret laboratories they hatch plans for vengeance and create mechanical, metallurgical, and biological weapons against the charr that, when unleashed in guerrila force, cause the Charr to suffer a massive, grieving blow. Think Mass Effect genophage, or some huge explosive.

Edited by Fancy Fool, 13 August 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[I Am Cookie Monster]

Anyone who has played GW1 should know Oola's lab. If you don't it's the lab of a single Asura (Blimm was just an assistant I believe) which contains at least 100 golems. Of course GW2 is 250 years in the future so Oola is dead and her golems rusty, but just think if one Asura could make 100 golems 250 years ago, how many do you think one Asura could make now with advanced technology?

short answer: millions of golems+ asura gate leading right into Charr capital= Asura win

[Verdian_Hawkeye]

Di-Dorval, on 13 August 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

The Charr would have the upper hand at first. Until some random Asura invent some insane machine. In the end Asuras would probably win or eradicate all life on the planet... The thing is that a single Asura is already a very unpredictable and dangerous thing.. I wouldn't provoke them..

And for the people talking about the foe fire : it was a power given by the titans to the Charr. The Charr aren't with the titans anymore and thus dosn't  have access to such magic.

Just minor correction... Foefire was caused by adelbern. searing was caused by the charr

[dss_live]

Sure, the Charr do seem like having the upper hand in an all out war, but i wouldn't count them as winners. Humans have been able to withsand the charr for years. And no human can match the intellect of an asura.

[Mizzory]

Lyssa, on 13 August 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

If Charr were capable of marrying technology and magic they would have done it by now. Their magic users are a minority and Asura magi-tech is simply beyond their understanding.

True, but take irl humans for example... We started with nothing and slowly built up to finding cures for cancer and taking the first tiny steps to making teleportation machines.

Charr aren't comepletely stupid. They have a motto that's along the lines of... use everything and anything in war. And if they come across the portals and golems... damn right they're going to study the hell outof it.

[Jot_Vau]

Even though asura have a GIANT floating laser, maybe more than one. I think the charr could just capture and force skritt into camps to reverse-engineer asura tech and win.

[draxynnic]

Humans may not have the intellect of the asura, but they do have a history and understanding of warfare that's comparable to the charr, which the asura don't have. Presents from Abaddon aside, humans have also been stronger in magic than charr, and even now they're not really that far behind the charr.

My analysis of the situation basically boils down to: In a conventional war, the charr win hands down. But would the asura allow it to be decided by conventional means?

[ZeroReq011]

I think the key of this hypothetical war is speed. In this, I think this is the best shot the charr have of claiming victory.

If it protracts, I believe the asura would win in the end, even if all they decide to use is their mass-produced golems and their gates and waypoints.

Edited by ZeroReq011, 17 August 2012 - 07:11 PM.