If Charr and Asura went into all out war.
Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:57 PM
Asura nuke Ascalon in response
Elder dragons remove all other high races
Quaggan inherits Tyria
Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:20 PM
Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:50 AM
Asura seem too fractured to commence the first strike, while the charr have a more expansionist and unified approach, first strike to the Charr, which they need. There needs to be surgical strikes on Asura Gates nearby and prevent the news from reaching Rata too quickly. A quick marshal march taking out outposts and isolated labs will be important, but given their hidden and isolationist approach to research it's doubtful all would be taken This would mean that the Charr would have to spend more time defending their supply convoys from multiple separate geurilla cells as they make for Rata Sum. At this point it's a ticking clock for Charr progress, because as long as they are unorganized and scattered they are a nuisance, if a deadly one. Asura defectors seem a probable existence given that they aren't a unified force, some krewes, maybe even the Inquest, would side with the Charr as what they see as the winning side. No doubt the Iron Legion and Ash Legion would make use of them as engineers and spies both.
The way I see it happening is that the Legions arrive on the footstep of Rata Sum to find a relatively unified Asura force to siege. Their combined technical might would be perhaps a too tough nut to crack, meaning they would have to attempt to starve them out. This also seems unlikely given the Asura Gate existence. You just know they've got a few stations stashed around out there for a situation like this, or some rogue asura whom built their own off elsewhere. Tucked away in an abandoned lab.
It would likely end like Ebonhawk, the charr establishing a permanent siege outside and inhabiting the nearby area while the Asura remain resilient making sorties and guerrilla warfare. Charr don't seem the kind to be disheartened so this would likely keep on.
Stalemate, advantage Charr.
But, honestly, this makes no sense in the context of Tyria. The asura are an empowered economic force in modern Tyria, plying power through trade and tech. Their nations are accross a continent from eachother and other nations exist, complicating the matter. The Charr would survive embargos but troop movements would be difficult since other nations don't take kindly to soldiers marching en force through their lands. They may barter past the Norn, but the humans wouldn't stand for it. Sylvari are difficult to read on this, they would either stay out of the conflict entirely, allowing both sides to march through defined areas or disallowing the entire thing. For the Charr to achieve victory in this case they would need to gate a sizeable force directly into Rata Sum or march from the Grove. The grove proves difficult given that they would need to secure/barter passage through LA and secure the Grove for use as a staging area. Neither of which are wonderful prospects. Striking into Rata Sum is the only avenue of success (other than a world war), Seccuring passage through LA for this segment of time would be much easier than for a more prolonged conflict like the Grove would be, the main difficulty being ensuring working gates for transport into Rata. As for the actual fighting, the peacemaker golems would prove a laughable defense and the core of Asura power would fall like so many rats to rabid terriers. After Rata it would be destroying their next big powersource in Metrica, after that it's Guerrilla warfare for a long time and hoping you can keep a few asura under thumb or on your side to keep the gates from Rata Sum to the Iron Citadel open. If first stike Charr, victory charr. But if the Asura decide they don't like how Charr smell, no war withering economic policies. (outright conflict started by the Asura isn't their style) They might swing a human/Asura alliance which would likely mean Asura victory.
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Fear the mighty ORVILLECOPTER
Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:58 AM
Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:13 PM
Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:29 PM
There are also logistic considerations that must be weighted. The united Charr legions would have to march the entire way to Rata Sum, occupy it and stamp out any guerillia activity. Now I am not overly familiar with the physiology of the Charr but I would speculate that they would require serious amounts of food/nutrition to maintain the invasion and keep their soldiers fighting. Given the distance between the Black Citadel and Rata Sum this would require very long supply chains which would be vulnerable to interference and destruction. So while they might win the opening skirmishes or be successful in forging a path towards Rata Sum I could see remote controlled Golems, bombs and other technology available to the Asura as a highly effective counter to a Charr invasion. The Asura seem to be able to operate their technology at exceptionally long distances which would mean lower casaulties and no reliance on supply lines to cause damage.
Furthermore you are all underestimating the power of the unforeseen. Wars are highly unpredictable events which are often decided by unforeseen and unpredictable events. A society which has no central command structure, that is split into competing groups and is fueld by scientific ingenuity and ongoing discovery is far more likely to adap and succeed. The strict hierarchy of the Charr is useful when initially mobilizing the legions to fight but will come as a detriment when individuals have to make their own choices. The Asura probably couldn't initiate an invasion very easily because they have no way to coerce their society to fight in the way the cat people can. However the mice would surely band together effectively to repel the Charr invasion. So even if the Charr managed to occupy Rata Sum I suggest it would mirror the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan or America's involvement in Vietnam at best. Individual krewes could retreat into the jungle or move underground where the Charr would have difficulty touching them. Yet small efforts could wreck devastating destruction on the Legions. Black swan events matter more than anybody realises and the Asura have a much better chance of creating positive black swans as well as taking advantage of any black swans they encounter.
The mice people beat the cats in my opinion even if the felines are geared for war like the Spartans.
Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:12 PM
If elite squads of charrs take control of a few crucial portals they could just make ambushes just behind the teleport and rip off any reinforcement asura will bring with no chance to counter attack, making gateways very dangerous to use.
Watching the evolution curve that both races had in last 250 years i'd say asura did not make such "big steps" like charr did, i bet they would be better at reverse-engineering asura's tech and use 'em on their own. (at least most of the safe ones like portals)
You keep talking about golems forgetting that charr have effigies & siege devourers that can easly counter them (to not talk about tank and more powerful new weapons). Asura got megalasers, Charr got searing flames.
Overall there are not so many golems in the world and there are NO big industries to produce them fast and in large numbers, on the other side charr can do it.
In the end for every living Asura there are 3-5 Charr and since Asura are so split the chances to fight in highly outnumbered situations is even higher.
I still think Charr would win, u understimating their smartness
Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:45 PM
In fact you are just making stuff up, we have no figures on population either way. I am not going to offer any further replies or rebuttals. You are just inventing facts...
Edited by Xunlai Agent, 15 November 2012 - 01:48 PM.
Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:56 PM
Interesting question is, would they join other legions if there was war with asura? Given the open aggression between four high legions and flame legion, I think they wouldn't. More likey, they would exploit the situation to their own benefit.
Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:02 PM
Charr are raised for war. Asura aren't. They could adapt but the charr would have a huge mental and emotional edge on them.
Edited by Norn Osprey, 15 November 2012 - 10:05 PM.
Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:15 PM
Edited by Mr_Original, 15 November 2012 - 10:15 PM.
Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:25 PM
Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:13 PM
Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:22 AM
Also, there is one DE in Blazeridge Steppes where a charr is building his own flying machine, quite similar to pact choppers. The fact it can't stay in the air for more than 10 seconds and other charr are mocking him means flying machines aren't part of charr arsenal.
Edited by Red J, 16 November 2012 - 10:22 AM.
Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:40 AM
But it only takes one enterprising alcoholic genius billionaire playboy philanthropist to put together a golem suit in captivity using a box of scraps. Then I'd say all bets are off.
Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:37 AM
Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:46 PM
Charr may have magic and millitary tactics and be born in the heat of battle and may still have some searing magic as others say and would sure win on a head on battle but wars are not always about head on confortation.
Asuras on the other hand rely too much on magic and "technology" to pass through the day and their weak and small body would not stand a chance against a two legged huge cat:P
But if you see the facts Asuras have a clear win.
1st. The moment war breaks loose the Flame legion would push through charr homeland and Charrs would have a deadly enemy on their rear.
2nd. Asuras are familiars with underground networks(which will give them a huge advantage because they can practically sneak behind enemy lines) and will use them if necessary although they may have to fight some destroyers.
3rd. Asuras can fly(nuff said)
4th. Charrs are way too confident about their power and brawl and will underestimate the Asuras due to their physiology(and they will underestimate them even in a small degree)
5th. Charrs would have to walk to Asura homeland and make their way through Shiverpeaks and Tyria suffer from exhaustion and try to fend off rivals on their way to Rata Sum.
Asuras would never go on a full scale war against Black citadel unless they are sure to win so they will hold up in forts and Rata Sum and wait patientaly while developing their traps and stuff.
6th. Asuras have teleportation devices Golems, Blimps and can sure summon creatures from elsewere to use them as a distraction or a trap and all those are powered by crystals
Charrs must cut down trees mine metals and build with their bare hands in order to make those warmachines its much more frustrating and tiring than using golems to gather and place crystals in machines.
7th. Asuras can bombard an area with gas and send golems to silently and quickly dispatch of any charr warband.
8th. Asuras have laisers that burn DRAGONS
9th. As i said befora the flame legion would party in the absence of the charr armies and so the charrs would have 2 fronts to face and not enough soldiers(not to mention their soldiers would be all over tyria running from one place to another)
10th. Asuras can nuke as some supposed and wouldnt really care.
11th. Charrs are prideful beings and would not even think winning a war if it was due to some foreign device or trick(as an answer to those that said charrs may use teleportation to their advantage)
Thats all i can think of now sorry for the long post and sorry if those have already been said i didnt read every post
Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:05 PM
11th. Charrs are prideful beings and would not even think winning a war if it was due to some foreign device or trick(as an answer to those that said charrs may use teleportation to their advantage)
Have to disagree here. Victory at any cost is the charr motto. So they will do whatever it takes to win.
It would really depend on who makes the first major attack I think. If the Charr invade first, it will probably end in a stalemate. This is because the Asura will then unite, see it as a common threat, and can use all of their combined intellect and technology to build impregnable defenses, and with lots of tricks and magic, be a constant nuissance to the invading Charr.
If the asura invade first however, there will likely be colliding ego's on how to strike. The urgency would not be great enough to force teamwork, and the great military structure of the charr will probably drive them back.
So unless some great tide turning event happens, I can't see either side pulling a complete victory. And since those events are impossible to predict, this debate is so interesting. I will give my vote to the Charr though. Just because they will probably go the furthest in their advancements before they get stopped.
Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:57 PM
(It seems to be a common thread with Pact technology - the original prototypes tend to be charr or asura, but they've been refined by other races. Trahearne gives the line about the airships during a personal story step, while a character in the Fort Trinity submersible dock says that the charr built the first (likely referring to the Iron Barracuda), but the design was improved on by "engineers of all races". I'm told there's a similar comment made about the Pact choppers somewhere too, and while I don't recall the description of the megagolem in the Priory line after the ossuary/flagship arc, it at least had a contribution from the norn that was looking to replicate deldrimor steel.)
Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:41 AM
During a TAD talk, Jeff Grubb said when he designed the Dragonlance Gnomes (which Wow Gnomes are based on), the reason he had their inventions always failing was a form of balance to stop them taking over the world. When designing Asura on the other hand, he made it that their inventions don't fail, and the reason they don't rule over Tyria is they were only recently forced to the surface from the underground, which they did rule.
Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:27 AM
What might happen, realistically, is that while the Arcane Council is debating, one Asura manages to build some sort of super battle-suit (take the level 79 Air Drop thing and make it actually work) and strikes at one particular legion (similar to a terrorist attack, if you will). The other legions, if they're mounting an attack, must watch for the knife that's being held by the flame legion, who can use it as an opportunity to bolster their own strength. If the legions do not mount a full-scale attack, and resort to squads/commandos/terrorism in the same way as Asura, then it still benefits the Flame Legion, as there will be enough dissatisfied charr to throw in their lot with an Imperator who is willing to do something.
On average, if we're speaking of small-scale harassment, I would say that while a charr commando team is likely to kill its target each and every time, the unpredictability of the asura - again, if it took one average Asura scientist to level Adelbern and half of his ghost army, imagine what a genius level asura on par with Oola can do - makes it very difficult to gauge how well the charr would fare.
Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:17 AM
1: Charr has a history of violence. They're warriors all the way to the bone and they've been able to bring fear to the humans to the point of them destroying their own damn country just to get rid of them!
2: Charr don't look down upon their enemies. Granted, the Asura are smart beyond limit, and their technological progress + advanced knowledge would give them a huge upper hand. BUT unlike the Asura, the Charr doesn't look down upon other races. They may be foul and vile and gruesome and share no love for other beings, perhaps even seeing them as inferior, but they have a hunters soul. They know that good prey doesn't go down easily. Asura, however, tend to be overconfident. Look at Rata Sum for instance that tries its best to gather magic, confident that they can keep the dragons at bay at any time.
However, even though the Charr would win, it'd be a battle great enough for even the Elder Dragons to say "Yeah, um, I'm just gonna... go... home..."
Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:40 PM
The charr can work together as one cohesive unit, especially with a common enemy. They've also proved that they're very good at making military alliances and convincing people that a threat to them is a threat to everyone. And being such a strong military presence, they're someone you don't want to be on the bad side of. That and charr honesty, you know where you stand with a charr.
So the average opinion of a charr is that they're militaristic, but trustworthy to a point. And you know where you stand. Now, the asura (as detailed in the asura week story) are pretty much very into the whole flim-flam man thing, they're conmen, they're incredibly capitalistic and all about personal gain. They're essentially the ferengi of Guild Wars 2. Yes, they're clever, but if a charr offered an asura a better contract, they'd kill their own to do so. The Inquisition pretty much proves this.
So not only do you have the united charr, and those who'd join the charr, but then you have krewes of asura mercenaries who're so capitalistic that they'd happily work for the charr because the charr are paying them more than the Arcane Council or their own people would. I mean, really. What could the Arcane Council offer them that could even come close to the secrets of charr metalworking? So, you'd probably see about 20% (if not more) of the asura peoples do the turncoat thing.
Then you'd have asura opportunists. Those who're trying to make a profit off war. They'd happily stab their compatriots in the back if they thought that they could turn a coin from doing so, especially if it meant that they'd get to steal all their inventions. The Inquisition would definitely be in on this. There'd be a lot of asura sharks who'd be looking for weakness within their own people in order to take advantage. So there goes another 20-30% of the asura peoples.
And then there's the fact that the asura can never agree on anything, because any asura that doesn't agree with another asura is an idiot. So this leaves the asura as a large, disorganised mess. The asura would be having committee after committee about how to deal with the charr, and lots of arguments and intellectual one-upmanship. And while they're doing this the charr would have already marched to Rata Sum with their best war machines and secret weapons of mass destruction (developed with the aid of asura mercs, of course!).
See, this is the thing, there's no racial/national pride amongst the asura. To win a war, you need pride.
So I see it as an argument about who would win a war between the ferengi and the klingons from Star Trek. Semantics can be argued as much as anyone desires, but the outcome is hilariously obvious.
(And I was being generous with the numbers. Considering just how capitalistic the asura are, you'd likely have more like 40-60% joining the charr as asura mercs. Because hey, the charr are in a better position to offer secrets and resources.)
Edited by DuskWolf, 12 December 2012 - 11:42 PM.
Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:27 AM
The general theory is that humans provided knowledge of how to build an actual ship. The mechanical technology is clearly charr in origin, but the shape of the hull is comparable to the hull of a seafaring vessel, and of the major races humans have more experience in building seafaring vessels - so it was possibly a human shipwright that designed the hull to minimise air resistance and maximise efficient use of space. Humans might also have more experience in harnessing the wind - I'd have to revisit the mills in eastern Diessa to confirm this, but the impression I get is that the charr have largely skipped windmills in favour of more advanced technology, which might have left them with a gap in their knowledge. Humans could have filled in that gap, making the control surfaces a joint effort - charr technology providing the motive engines, human design creating a more efficient design of the sails.
The asura contributions, I suspect, are internal. The shields on what seem to be the standard issue Pact turret are probably asura make, and the asura might be able to provide a lighter medium for transferring input from the control stations to the control surfaces then teh charr would have been able to (think of the difference between the mechanical control systems of early aircraft to modern fly-by-wire, for instance). The Pact airships also seem pretty durable for even a fully rigid multi-cell dirigible - the asura might have contributed there in the form of magical reinforcement of some form or another of the envelope. It may even have been an asura that came up with the idea of lighter-than-air craft to begin with.
Now, with all that, I suspect airships were within the capability of the charr, but if it was the charr alone they might have ended up similar to the war wagons and "tanks" (more like armoured cars) - better than nothing, certainly, but riddled with design flaws and weaknesses that reduce their effectiveness. (There's a bit of speculation here, since ANet has never said that either have design flaws, but looking at the war wagons and "tanks" with my physicist training results in spotting a lot of flaws, and an engineer would probably see more.) Tanks and automotives in general are breaking new ground, but in the case of airships, there was expertise available from other races that could help ameliorate their flaws.
(I should also note here that it's possible the human stuff at least could be adapted by a charr engineer after doing the research - Trahearne might still regard this as "human technology" because the basic principles are still of human origin, even if it's stuff that's known to other races)
Regarding the asura... I think you're underestimating their racial pride. A lot of asura do have a bit of a 'me first' attitude, but they also want their race and society to continue (after all, who better to acknowledge their genius than another asura?) and the characteristic asura 'we're better than you' obnoxiousness is as much racial pride as it is a roundabout way of saying 'I'm better than you'. There'll be a few that choose to sit it out, and there may be the odd renegede that outright betrays their race, but it'd be more along the lines of the odd Anton selling out for a specific benefit than a widespread occurance. While that can be bad enough, the charr do have one out of four High Legions actively out to stab the others in the back.
When it comes to the Inquest... ironically, despite being the 'enemy' faction, the Inquest are probably the most likely to stand their ground on behalf of their race if the asura were invaded. Part of that is that despite being evil, unscrupulous oiks, they're the most organised among the asura, but mostly it's because the Inquest actually isn't about personal gain. They have a distinct if distant goal that they're all working towards, and that goal is asura superiority over everyone else (with the Inquest being ultimately in charge, of course). If the Inquest were to actively assist in charr conquest of the rest of their race, it would only be because somehow it works into their overall plan, and if the charr didn't figure out how it worked into the Inquest's overall goal in time they could end up winning all the battles but losing the war.
Personally, I think the charr would be smart enough to know that and to avoid trusting the Inquest any further than they could drop-kick them, while the Inquest would pull out all the stops to keep their main recruiting base intact.
Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:20 PM
Charr have very good fire power yes but it's far outranked by the asura technology.
An example already given here like the chopters in orr were only possible because of the priory intervention, my guess is that it would take ages for the charr alone to get an usable prototype running even though it's their design.
There's also the supply problem and the distance between the main cities.
The asura would just close all the gates to the charr and make them advance by foot. This would make them highly dependent on supply caravans, easy targets to delay an invasion.
Even if the charr got hold on some gates there's no guarantee that they could reverse engineer them, unless they had help from the Priory but i don't see them getting in the crossfire. Besides no one knows as much about the gates as the asura, they could probably "hack" them and make a setup to make all charr that passes through end up inside a volcano.
Also about the gates the asura have portable ones, Snaff made one so my guess is that they can build more. Imagine the asura just appearing and disappearing as they please to take down soft spots or deploy high offensive behind enemy lines.
Besides supplies needed to support the charr army movement they would have to go through the jungle, not only meaning slower movement speed (which would mean more time and supplies) but also a lot of traps leading to huge number of casualties.
This would be a dream for any asura, free test subjects for any explosive, turret and magic that they could think of.
Also, everyone forgot the weather machine?
It still wasn't concluded but with a bunch of genius they could partially control the weather and the terrain.
In the of chance that they could vastly increase the range they could just starve the charr to death by making droughts on their land. Besides that, they could just turn parts of the forest nearby to swamps (or even better, toxic swamps) and further delay if not stop at all the invasion.
The personal story also teaches another dangerous trait about asura.
They tend to not involve themselves with dangerous tests, hence why they use so many aids, but to prove their worth they go to great lengths.
There was that asura that sacrificed himself to blow up the risen ship full of bodies so my guess is that it's reasonable that they would invent something that would harm the whole continent if it meant that the immediate threat was suppressed. The worst is that if they get cornered they would use it without a second thought.
On a side note, how the hell would the charr armies move through the land?
Even assuming all orders and races would maintain neutrality (besides inquest and flame legion) the charr would have to go through norn and human territory before arriving at rata sum. With the current map it's not that easy to know if they have any port cities but still they would have to go through norn and human sea domains.
The norn wouldn't bother much i think. There would be some brawls but nothing major if they're not interrupted but no charr army will enter the human lands easily, even if just passing through.
The asura can just use a scout to set a gate, assuming they don't hack right away to the black citadel and blow it to pieces, and bypass the whole hurdle.
Accounting only the playable races the political and war alliances would be vastly disadvantageous to the charr.
The norn would never ally as a race to either side. A few warriors would end up among charr armies but nothing else.
The humans would most likely ally with the asura not only because of the long bloody past with the charr, but due to their dependence on gate technology for trading and especially keeping the EbonHawk safe. This would turn the humans into a shield before the charr could even get to asura homeland and there would be no way for the charr to win against this alliance.
Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:37 PM
The priory may have helped them develop the chopter, but their racial city is full of armored tanks. Look at the Orr story where they have 4 mobile battle - bikes.
Look at -every single- gun in Ft Trinity and on -all- of air ships with the single exception of the laser on the latest ship. One laser that took seconds to power up and fire once. Look at the wall in the branded area. It has charrtillery on both side. -Every single- Orr air ship has charr guns.
Where are the asura guns? In one swamp, waiting for a dynamic event to fire at a stationary dragonette.
Charr have been fighting and warring for hundreds of years. Asura, aside from The Inquest, would not have the stomach for it.
Let Asura close the gates, Charr would disassemble that gate in Black Citadel to prevent an invasion, load up the APCs and dozens of chopters, establish a forward base near Rata Sum.
What war machinery does Asura have ? Golems. Whoopy. Those slow moving things are mobile live fire practice targets.
And the 3 days it would take to raze Rata Sum to the ground, the charr would then roll over the pockets of resistance the Inquest would give. Remember, chopters have flame throwers. They would fill Rata Sum, an open-air rubiks cube, with napalm.
Sylvari would not interfer. Humans would stand back because they know the might of the charr. -If- they tried to ally with Asura, a very slim chance at best, their numbers would be countered by Norn joining Charr. The norn love nothing as well as a good fight. They also know the painful lesson of being on the wrong side of a fight because of Jormag.
Don't delude yourself. Between Charr and Asura, Asura would be a short quick speed bump under the heel of an iron clan Iron Legion boot.
And lets not forget, all of this assumes the Fire Legion doesn't get involve. Look at what that one group can do. It is show -multiple time- that the Fire Legion can travel immense distances, nearly instantly inside a fire ball. Not to mention that the -world- still shudders over the Fire Cauldrons.
Asura win against the charr? Pffft, no. Not in any stretch of the imagination. Not even remotely possible in any fashion.
Edited by Norn Osprey, 18 December 2012 - 02:48 PM.
Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:39 PM
Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:41 PM
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