360 replies to this topic

[Mockingjay74]

Norn Osprey, on 18 December 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Sylvari would not interfer. Humans would stand back because they know the might of the charr. -If- they tried to ally with Asura, a very slim chance at best, their numbers would be countered by Norn joining Charr. The norn love nothing as well as a good fight. They also know the painful lesson of being on the wrong side of a fight because of Jormag.

I think your numbers will be a bit different. There's no way to gauge how many norn are alive, and there's absolutely no way that you would get the majority of their population to band together. It's just now how they roll!

[draxynnic]

As Mockingjay says, the norn don't organise as a group - they might not interfere with the charr, but they're not likely to join them in significant numbers either. Certainly not in response to humans joining the asura - after all, they stood aside as humans and charr butted heads for centuries before. Under current political conditions, in fact, I could see just as many norn opposing charr passage through their territory - in the case of the charr army passing through to attack Kryta prior to GW1 the norn didn't care where the charr army went if it wasn't attacking them, but in GW2 there may be norn that will cause problems for the charr army if they thought the war was unjustified

Humans and sylvari do organise in groups - and unless the war starts by the asura having done something sufficiently reprehensible that everyone's out for their blood, then best-case scenario for the charr is probably that they remain neutral. Humans especially are going to have a strong political pressure to take advantage of having the asura as de facto allies to attempt to retake Ascalon - I don't think it's a sure thing that Jennah would do that (again, depending on how this hypothetical conflict started) but humans have shown repeatedly that they're not afraid to pit themselves against the charr. In the case of the sylvari - they don't like the asura much, but as a group they don't dislike them enough to go to war against them either, and the Pale Tree seems to hold a similar attitude towards the charr. If the charr were to make a bid to conquer Rata Sum, I could see the sylvari being drawn into it because a) of the fear that if they don't support the asura now, they might be next, and the highly industrialised and collateral-damage-happy charr army would be likely to do so much damage to any sylvari territory they pass through even if the sylvari are neutral that the sylvari might feel that they have to stop that army before they get there.

You're also missing a lot of examples of asura weaponry. Most of those charr cannons on airships (and regular ships) you refer to are protected by a reflective shield... the smart money would be on that being asura technology. The primary active defences of Fort Trinity are actually the asura megalasers on the beach - the charr cannons further up are antipersonnel weapons that are there primarily to defend the beach itself, but it's the megalasers that are there to sink any bone ships that show up to interdict the harbour. In the case of the Glory of Tyria, while the cannons we get to use are apparently of charr make (the sparklecannon nature raises the question, but I think they're basically Ghostbores), as well as Zojja's cannons there are also another row of asura beam weapons below decks.

And when we look at charr technology - I don't think there's a functional charr flying machine outside of Orr, which tells me that whatever it is that the other races in the Pact have provided, it's definitely necessary... at least for now. When it comes to charr "tanks" - I think it's a mistake to assume that they even match Allied WW1 tanks in effectiveness. The big ones we see in the War Wagon Prep Deck and as part of fortifications in the Fields of Ruin are large and imposing, but look very poorly designed - fixed main gun, no apparent secondary armanent (ask the crews of the Elefant/Ferdinand from WW2 how that worked out), high centre of gravity, and most of the weight resting on a single giant wheel on the ground. I suspect there's a reason why they're essentially used as siege engines and not much else - any ground that isn't close to flat is going to risk tipping them over, any ground that's a little bit soft and that rear wheel is going to sink into it, and they're going to be highly susceptible to destruction by infantry that has the means to destroy them (and if you look around various events, the asura have a lot of nasty portable weapons that can potentially punch through armour, as well as a lot of engineers and magic-users).

The smaller ones are more viable for field use - light enough to be practical in the field, and possessing rotating turrets - but they're still restricted in mobility compared to infantry (especially in dense terrain) and have relatively light firepower and armour. From my experience fighting beside them in Orr, I'm fairly confident that if I had to fight against them, they wouldn't actually prove much more difficult than those dredge defence guns. Now, we obviously can't assume that every soldier is going to be the match of a PC - after all, each of us has cut down Inquest and their golems by the dozen, and that's probably a good yardstick of what the asura army would be like - but the fact is that the charr tanks are a far cry from what we'd regard as tanks (including lacking caterpillar treads entirely, which is how you get something as heavy as a modern tank to work without sinking into anything softer than packed clay). A better analogy would be to take a steam-powered car from the late 1800s and give it an enclosed crew compartment (but those sheets don't look like they're thicker than a centimetre or so) and a light (40mm or so) artillery piece. While useful to have, neither represent a 'charr have tanks, therefor charr win' advantage.

[Killyox]

Lyssa, on 13 August 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

If Charr were capable of marrying technology and magic they would have done it by now. Their magic users are a minority and Asura magi-tech is simply beyond their understanding.

You couldn't have been more wrong.

It's not that tey don't "understand" it. They don't like it. They do NOT want to rely on magic for anything. Don't mix animosity for magic with lack of understanding of it. They also think of magic as unreliable.

Xunlai Agent, on 13 November 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Asura would unite against a common threat I am sure of it. Personally I think it would end in a stalemate situation which would lead to a war of attrition in favour of the Asura.

Like they unite against EDragons? Oh wait....

Edited by Killyox, 19 December 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Xunlai Agent]

Killyox, on 19 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Like they unite against EDragons? Oh wait....

Hardly threatening the Asura nation directly, nice try but no dice!

[Killyox]

Xunlai Agent, on 19 December 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Hardly threatening the Asura nation directly, nice try but no dice!

True. Afterall Asura left caves because they suddenly desired to bask in sunlight, right? Not because they were driven away by Primordus' minions and especially after dragon awakened eh?

So yeah, right back at you.

[Xunlai Agent]

Killyox, on 19 December 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

True. Afterall Asura left caves because they suddenly desired to bask in sunlight, right? Not because they were driven away by Primordus' minions and especially after dragon awakened eh?

So yeah, right back at you.

Over two hundred years ago, riiiiiiight....

[flameseeker]

You got to know that while the flame legion worships primordus the inquest have somewhat of a god complex. To them anything related to magic means that there's a way to control it and dragons aren't an exception, reason why they don't fight the dragons directly.
So if by any chance there's a charr invasion the inquest would most likely band together while the flame legion would just try to seize control of charr homeland.

Also regarding human, norn and sylvari draxynnic explained rather well.
Assuming the war doesn't start due to asura stupidity:
1- Norn won't band together, some might go along and that's it.
2- Even if the queen doesn't want to invade the pressure from the human citizens would most likely make make her give in and eventually ally with asura. Note that no human would stand charr armies walking freely in their lands.
3- Sylvari would only intervene if the forest balance would endanger the pale tree (i think).

About technology there's no way for charr to make air invasion to setup a temporary forward base camp.
They don't have the means and the current asura laser technology would make any charr ship entering their range just a good target practice.
In weaponry the charr got lots of high powered artillery but not much else. They mostly suffer from poor mobility and would be sitting ducks for any experimental weapon designed to demolish and kill those monstrous tanks.
The asura on the other hand have the best mobility of all the races and are experts in demolition, explosives and anything else that might cause end up being adapted to a weapon.

Regarding their vulnerabilities the charr and asura are the polar opposites. Charr distrust magic while asura will (almost) never solve solution through brute force.
If asuras build golem power plants (they just haven't done so far because they like to improve their creations and not make massive amounts of soon to be pieces of junk) they could put up a pretty good army to delay a full power invasion. With that and constant guerrilla fighting techniques (basically ambushes and lots of traps), they could pretty much take on the charr on the same level.
The problem is that they would more quickly try to develop a megadeath cannon to blast the black citadel from rata sum than build an army...

Edited by flameseeker, 19 December 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Norn Osprey]

draxynnic, on 18 December 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

As Mockingjay says, the norn don't organise as a group

You're also missing a lot of examples of asura weaponry.

The primary active defences of Fort Trinity are actually the asura megalasers on the beach -

but it's the megalasers that are there to sink any bone ships that show up to interdict the harbour

And when we look at charr technology - I don't think there's a functional charr flying machine outside of Orr

I never said that the number of humans would be offset by the number of Norn. I said, by the norn. Norn are more ferocious in battle. The Sons of Svanir, as an example, value strength. If the charr started an all-out war against another or other races, I do believe a large number of Norn would side with the Charr because the charr are more fierce in battle. I do not believe that the number of Norn wouold be a large portion of the total norn race but it would be enough to diminish or counter anything the humans would bring.

Outside of Sparkfly, I dont see megalasers. The only other one I have seen, besides the one in SouthSun Cove, was on the latest and greatest air ship. When I go into Ft Trinity, all I see is Charrtillery.

I dont remember a megalaser guarding a harbor. I remember sinking several boneships using catapults, trebs and one Hylek bubble blaster gun.

Even if the megalasers are good, pffft, how easy would it be to take them out?  Very. They require a big blue-glowing power source with cabling to the megalaser's base. Do you honestly think, any war minded charr would let those soft targets go unmolested?

Of course their isn't functional flying machine outside of Orr. Storywise, it has taken years to get there. In the personal story, it was stated to have taken over 10 years from the time you complete your first tutorial intro, until Ft Trinity.

Over that decade, Charr kept advancing their tech.

Look at every single Asura encampment.  Open sided cube with wide stairs leading right up to it.

Charr -- walls, gates, turrets.

You mention that none of the charr vehicles are mobile. Of course not. That would be coding the Devs need to do for nothing gained. Just because the vehicles inside Black Citadel and numerous ones around the charr zones arent mobile does't mean that they don't work storywise. In several of the camps, those vehicles are mentioned as bringing them there.

Can you enter every building in Divinity's Reach? No?  Does that mean that those are nonfunctional and humans are huddled together in the few working buildings? Of course not.

What does the asura Mist Warrior say to the charr Mist Warrior as soon as you enter Rata Sum? "These asura have no stomach for war."

Territory.  How many areas do the Asura have?  Three and they share them with the Sylvari. They simply don't the population. Their are more areas, 2 more, listed for the Asura/Sylvari but a player would be -very- hard pressed to find more than a single asura or sylvari camp in those zones. Char? Six areas and all have a strong charr pressence.

Know why there are so few Asura?  They kill off each other as lab rats assistants. They are culling out their own numbers.

Inside Orr or in Mount Maelstrom, a sylvari comments on how abrasive asura are and how little others enjoy working with them. How many asura do you see in the charge to retake Orr? I remember a couple, one in Straits of Devastation that starts an escort event. Another in Malchor's Leap. I remember charr npcs everywhere.

As for the Sylvari, this is explained. The Sylvari have only recently began as a race. Unless their Wild Hunter takes them outside of The Groves, most don't leave it.

If there was a fight, every asura death would cost them dearly because they simply don't have the numbers to spare. Charr are everywhere, technologically slightly behind, but they are more focused on war and war machines, they have all the working war machines except for the two types of Pact flyers.

Charr have the numbers (racial population), the mindset (constantly fighting), machinery (now with flying helicopters), guns/turrets, and lastly, possibly, fire cauldrons and Fire Legion if that group could be convinced.

[flameseeker]

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Even if the megalasers are good, pffft, how easy would it be to take them out?  Very. They require a big blue-glowing power source with cabling to the megalaser's base. Do you honestly think, any war minded charr would let those soft targets go unmolested?

The megalaser is a long ranged weapon that outranges the charr siege engines, or theoretically should outrange.
For closer range there's an assortement of turrets and other traps, not to mention shields and forcefields that no other race as available.

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Of course their isn't functional flying machine outside of Orr. Storywise, it has taken years to get there. In the personal story, it was stated to have taken over 10 years from the time you complete your first tutorial intro, until Ft Trinity.

Over that decade, Charr kept advancing their tech.

If the charr have evolved can you guess how many light years ahead are the asura?

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Look at every single Asura encampment.  Open sided cube with wide stairs leading right up to it.

Charr -- walls, gates, turrets.

The open camps are poor defended, or not defended at all but look at their hideouts and look how many charr would die if they invaded one the same way as they march on the warfield.
We've never seen rata sum defense system, but i bet there's a lot of hidden defense systems that would make the enemies stay far away from the place. And with their love for explosions the city would come with a self destruct button i guess.

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

You mention that none of the charr vehicles are mobile. Of course not. That would be coding the Devs need to do for nothing gained. Just because the vehicles inside Black Citadel and numerous ones around the charr zones arent mobile does't mean that they don't work storywise. In several of the camps, those vehicles are mentioned as bringing them there.

I'm not saying they don't move but the way they're built allow for a rather limited mobility. As a siege weapon they're sturdy and pack quite a punch but as a vehicle they suck.

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

What does the asura Mist Warrior say to the charr Mist Warrior as soon as you enter Rata Sum? "These asura have no stomach for war."

Asura aren't cowards. Just because they don't like to fight doesn't mean they aren't good at killing.

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Territory.  How many areas do the Asura have?  Three and they share them with the Sylvari. They simply don't the population. Their are more areas, 2 more, listed for the Asura/Sylvari but a player would be -very- hard pressed to find more than a single asura or sylvari camp in those zones. Char? Six areas and all have a strong charr pressence.

Besides their capital and their hideouts the asura don't have much ties to land anyway (i think). They just search for places with potential for their investigations and stay there, sometimes hidden for years so nothing bothers them. The charr on the otherhand are in constant expansion because of the resources needed for their militaristic society.

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Know why there are so few Asura?  They kill off each other as lab rats assistants. They are culling out their own numbers.

They kill each other to develop new technology (and they don't murder each other, just some dangerous lab procedure went wrong, usually). Now if hordes of charr come gladly to be test subjects of asura weaponry can you guess how fast all the asura would turn to weapon research?

Norn Osprey, on 19 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

If there was a fight, every asura death would cost them dearly because they simply don't have the numbers to spare. Charr are everywhere, technologically slightly behind, but they are more focused on war and war machines, they have all the working war machines except for the two types of Pact flyers.

Charr have the numbers (racial population), the mindset (constantly fighting), machinery (now with flying helicopters), guns/turrets, and lastly, possibly, fire cauldrons and Fire Legion if that group could be convinced.

I have to agree and disagree here.
You're absolutely right on population assessment, for every asura death 20-50 charrs if not more had to die (just making numbers since there's no records of population registration for each race) but asura would be very difficult to find on the open field. The small bastards would probably use traps, ambushes and drones on the open field while staying in their hideouts developing new ways to blow up charr.

Technologically charr are years behind to reach the asura, at bare minimum, and the asura develop new technology way faster so there's no hope for the charr catch up with them.
Their mindset and numbers would be the only thing to keep them moving forward and if by any chance they start burning the forest with searing cauldrons you can bet that the sylvari would join the party.

[draxynnic]

Watch out with the quote-warring, guys.

On asura unification: they DID unify pretty effectively during Eye of the North. We see them arguing about what to do when we first arrive in asura territories, but once they did reach a plan, they got behind it pretty effectively. In modern times, as Xunlai said, the asura don't feel directly threatened in the way some of the other races are. They're physically distant from anything but destroyers coming out of the ground, while the Inquest feels that given enough time they could figure out a way to control the dragons' powers... and they have enough influence on the Arcane Council to stop it from regarding the dragons as a clear and present danger. A charr invasion, though, would be a clear and present danger that none of the asura factions can stick their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

In the case of the norn, I don't think even a large number would join. Norn are driven by individialism and a desire to earn glory for themselves. Norn involvement even in the orders is predicated on the idea that the potential to earn glory fighting dangerous foes outweighs the loss of individuality in doing so. Outside of that, though, the typical norn is likely to see little opportunity to build a legend as one more soldier fighting in a charr army against human soldiers or asura golems, especially since, while the norn probably like the charr more than the others, there's no race they actually dislike. Consider - how many norn joined the charr invasion of Kryta at the time of the Searing? None. How many would join a charr invasion of Kryta and the Maguuma were it to happen? Maybe a handful, but not enough to make a significant difference.

Still, the OP specified that we were assuming the other races didn't intervene, so this is a side discussion at best.

Regarding the megalasers at Fort Trinity: if you're not seeing them, you're simply not looking. Half the time I've been in Fort Trinity lately they're disabled, but if you have the central invasion path event up, it'll tell you they're disabled, and there'll be a bone ship blockading the Fort Trinity port preventing the central invasion from occuring. If they're operational, there are three of them along the shore (smaller than the one in Sparkfly and on the Glory of Tyria, but still the primary sea defence weapons of the fort). Yes, this means they are susceptible to being destroyed by armies of Risen, but hey, my experience in Ascalon and elsewhere in Orr is that the charr technology isn't exactly indestructable either. You're also ignoring the force fields that are on the turrets of the airships that while active can reflect pretty much anything - those are almost certainly asura work (in fact, if you do the 'steal the Dead Ships' story arc, the turret installations require asura supervision) and a few of those mounted around Rata Sum or anything else the charr might try to bombard is going to give them a nasty surprise when all their artillery shells start coming back at them. And that's without considering the possible application of all those nasty portable asura devices that are spread throughout the world. (And on that, while the asura may not have claimed much land around the surroundings of Rata Sum - although I'm pretty sure they have land east of Rata Sum that isn't currently accessible - they have labs spread around quite widely, including ones hidden underwater. Good luck taking all of those out before one comes up with something decisive.)

Regarding the mobility of charr war wagons - did you even read what I wrote? That we never see them move had absolutely nothing to do with my argument. My argument was based on looking at them and comparing to actual engineering and physical principles. The reason why pretty much all modern military ground vehicles above a certain weight are fully tracked is that it spreads the weight of the vehicle across more ground, do they don't sink into the ground and bog down. Inspecting the charr war wagons, they have two small tracks near the front and one giant wheel at the back... and their centre of gravity is towards the back. That means that most of the weight of the vehicle is resting on that back wheel. Even if the axle of that rear wheel isn't prone to breaking from the pressure involved, with something like 80% of the weight of such a large and heavy vehicle resting on a single contact point is going to mean it's just going to sink into anything soft enough to be excavated with a shovel. Ever seen a car that's had one or more wheels sinking into mud, and when it tries to go anywhere it just throws up more mud behind it? That's what's likely to happen to the war wagons just on ordinary soil like you'd find in your backyard, and at the charr technology level, they probably don't have the torque to get out of it. My argument is based on analysing them using known engineering principles and concluding from there that their mobility is limited.

The smaller 'tanks' are clearly mobile enough - but I've done the event at the Straits of Devastation/Malchor's Leap border involving defending a tank a few times, and I think I've failed more often than not because the tank itself doesn't do a lot of damage, nor does it really take a lot for it to be destroyed. Over the seven-minute period of the event, it only takes one or two Risen getting into attack range of it every so often and you're going to lose it. That doesn't make them ineffectual, but it does mean that if you're thinking of them as being like real-world tanks that require specialised weapons for infantry to even have a chance, you're wrong.

Finally, please cite where it says it takes ten years to go from the tutorial to Zhaitan's fall, or even where there's some indication of timescale whatsoever. The impression I've got is that it's actually fairly fast-paced - with a couple of exceptions, you're bouncing from one crisis to another that needs to be solved RIGHT NOW or there's going to be a disaster. I could see it being a year, but not a decade, and if it was to be a decade it's not going to give ArenaNet much opportunity to extend the story before characters of shorter-lived races start to show signs of ageing. If we assume that your claim is correct, if we spread it out evenly then that would be saying that, for instance, Claw Island was occupied for over a year - I really doubt there would still be a Lion's Arch if that was accurate. Pretty much every piece of 'charr' technology in Orr with the possible exception of the tanks you can find an NPC that says it was a group effort - the airships are 'a mixture of charr, human and asura technology' according to Trahearne, if you visit the Fort Trinity submarine pen there's a character there who tells you they were based on a charr prototype (presumably the Iron Barracuda) but "improved on by engineers of all races" - I haven't personally found the reference for the choppers yet, but I'm told there's a dynamic event in there somewhere where it's mentioned that they're a collaboration as well.

[Killyox]

Xunlai Agent, on 19 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Over two hundred years ago, riiiiiiight....

How does that change anything? It's a threat and more so than ever. Against zhaitan alone humans charr norn sylvari and asura work together and still asura don't unite with inquest. What makes you think they would unite when warring with charr?

Arguments the kind of "they could, they might, maybe" have little weight in this case. Talk about what's certain.

If you want to combine inquest and asura imagine charr legions + flame legion altough that's impossible

Charr vehicles in closer unknown future!

http://www.forgeworl.../mega-tank8.jpg

http://www.forgeworl...e/OrkBFort2.jpg

http://www.forgeworl...e/kilkrusha.jpg

(yeah i <3 orks vehicles haha)

PS

I hope to see some mobile artillery from charr soon. Afterall they got mortars already and they got vehicles. Nothing really stopping them from making mobile artillery.

http://www.forgeworl...large/prae3.jpg

Edited by Killyox, 20 December 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Zurieal]

If they both had time to prepare?

Asura might could come up with something that could win it for them.... Maybe.  If it was an uber weapon that could end it fast and clean? idk.

If war was declared and they went off the genocide the other race the next day, Charr hands down. Asura would still be arguing as to if they were at war or not.

If i had to pick a race to fight, Charr would be last on the list.

[Xunlai Agent]

Killyox, on 20 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

[snip]

The inherent irony and incredible inconsistency of your position is probably lost on yourself. I have no words...

[Killyox]

Xunlai Agent, on 20 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

The inherent irony and incredible inconsistency of your position is probably lost on yourself. I have no words...

So due to lack fo argument you resort to saying this? Ok. Thanks for pretty much admitting you were the wrong one. Seeing as you have no valuable argument i will discontinue this discussion from now on then.

[The_Blades]

Killyox have you even read draxx's post? im guessing you havent, he justifys quite clearly why asura would unite.

I understand trying to stick to your guns, but you are probably wrong on the asura, because they would most certainly unite to defeat the Charr leagions if they felt they were a real threat.

BTW, santa is an asura, with a huge sturdy ship, if he can make that, who's to tell other asuras cant do even better. I can see asuras using that tech to create a flying fortress that would rain fire on the black citadel outside of charrs weaponry range. good luck with that little cats.

[draxynnic]

Plus, all of the races have their disunity. Asura have the inquest, charr have the Flame Legion, humans have the bandits, norn have the Sons of Svanir, sylvari have the Nightmare Court.

The thing is, many of these factions still have some connection to their home culture. The Nightmare Court are a serious pain to mainstream sylvari, but if the Pale Tree was in danger of being destroyed and they hadn't succeeded in finding another to corrupt, they would fight to prevent the Pale Tree's destruction because if the sylvari become doomed to extinction, so are they. As you go through the various storylines (including one of the sylvari story steps) you get clear indications that at least some of the bandits are politically motivated - they're sabotaging the war effort against the centaurs now because that makes the queen look bad, but if it looked like Kryta was going to be wiped off the map entirely, I expect many of them will have second thoughts - or new orders from their sponsors in the Ministry. While it may look bad in Kryta at the moment, the impression I get is that Jennah's opposition seems confident that when they stop sabotaging the country, it'll bounce back.

The Inquest are probably the 'enemy faction' that's most tightly bound to their parent culture - asura PCs may regard them as rivals and enemies, but to mainstream asura society they're less viewed as enemies and more like a more extreme version of Monsanto or Electronic Arts - claws deep into the political process and more than a bit dodgy, but still a functioning part of society.

The Flame Legion, Sons of Svanir, and maybe the bandits (depending on who their true masters really are) are the only ones I could see sitting out if they were presented with a situation in which the playable part of their culture looked like it was going to be destroyed utterly if they didn't intervene.

[Zunnash]

flameseeker, on 19 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Technologically charr are years behind to reach the asura, at bare minimum, and the asura develop new technology way faster so there's no hope for the charr catch up with them.
Their mindset and numbers would be the only thing to keep them moving forward and if by any chance they start burning the forest with searing cauldrons you can bet that the sylvari would join the party.

You are mistaken here with the technology.  The Charr are further advanced when it comes to physical technology than the Asura, as confirmed directly by the developers.  The Asura bring magic into the equation so I'm not claiming the Charr could stomp them there, but don't let the steampunk look fool you.  See the concept art for the Black Citadel when you enter that place, for example, which while still steampunk does more directly demonstrate how advanced they are.  It's directly stated in lore that the Charr are in fact years ahead of the Asura on that front, even if it doesn't look like it.  This is stated in game as well by a Charr engineer who doesn't like a group of Asura going on a tour but who tolerates it in the name of diplomacy because she doesn't care if they "learn to mix a few alloys when their designs are centuries behind."  That's not an exact quote, so perhaps I should find her in game again to see what she says exactly.As another/others said, the Charr don't lack magical technology because they would never be able to understand or use it.  They lack it because the members of the Blood/Ash/Iron legions absolutely do not trust magic due to the Flame Legion.The bottom line however is that it's directly stated lore that the Charr are the most technologically advanced of the playable races.  The arcane is a different story of course.

Edit: Well that was fast, here it is:
 asuratour.jpg   222.81K   22 downloads

I remembered her being far more unhappy about the tour than how neutrally diplomatic she really was.

Edited by Zunnash, 24 December 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[draxynnic]

Keep in mind the arrogance of both races there - while both are forced to admit the others have some things they're better at, neither is ever going to admit that the other is objectively ahead.

The truth is they're ahead in different areas - charr are ahead in "pure" technology, but the asura can do things that that are at least decades ahead of our technology, let alone the Iron Legion's. And while the charr in principle can understand magical technology, it's a far cry from "completely nonmagical" to "able to pick up a cutting edge asura prototype and understand it". Most likely, they're both years or decades ahead of the other in their own form of technology.

[Nalano]

Charr.

If the Asuran technological advantage was so great, why were they kicked out of their underground homes to a bunch of unorganized dragon minions? Because they don't have the numbers or the industrial capacity to produce the numbers. They have golems but not a golem army, and those golems get blown up like everything else anyway.

If the Asuran cultural was so unified, why do the Inquest have such an easy time getting recruits right on the doorstep of Rata Sum? According to the lore, Asurans are organized by krewe, which are described as autonomous units with no real oversight: And how!

No, the Charr are an industrial nation entirely mobilized for war. They would win, hands down.

[Brynjar]

Nalano, you can ask the exact same questions about the charr. If their technology is so advanced, why are they having so much trouble with the ghosts? If their culture is so unified, why is there so much fighting between the Blood, Ash, and Iron Legions - to the point where breaking up a brawl between them is it's own DE. And then there's the Flame Legion, who have bases and steal from the footsteps of the Black Citadel itself.

The charr are, undoubtedly, an industrial nation entirely mobilized for war. But would their brand of warfare be effective against asura? Bullets are only so effective against magically animated golems, and a charr supply line would be easy prey for asura capable of mass teleportation. And consider that the most common type of asuran golem we see is not the only type that exists. In Ghosts of Ascalon, we see one golem that can regenerate itself endlessly given sufficient material. We see a similar type in Destiny's Edge, with Snaff's 'sand golem'. In Destiny's Edge, we also see teleportation without using Gates - when Logan abandons the Edge to go after Jennah - which would make the charr's precautions against the Gate in the Black Citadel completely useless.

Not to mention air warfare, where flying golems would likely be superior to the zeppelins that charr would be capable of using, and the idea of warfare between the two races is no longer so one-sided.

[The_Blades]

charrs using zeppelins is not a given. Flying machines around gw2 are a pact joint venture, not charr tech. who's to say charr could make a flying ship without asura and uman tech?

True the asura were kicked from their original homelands by an elder dragon, which, at the time, no one knew was there, it was a brand new threat, a threat so powerfull that could end all civilizations in tyria, yet, asura remain, they were the first ones to face this new dragon comming from the depths, they planed and fought it with great cost, but they're still around.

The charr faced nothing like this, an elder dragon flying by was the only time charr "faced" a dragon alone. But remember, the unified charr legions (not sure on this maybe it was just flame, but since there was a khan-ur im not sure) were defeated by the mursaat, and not many of them either, remember that? are the mursaat more powerfull than the elder dragons? i seriously doubt it. The charr were also driven from ascalon by the humans (with some help from gods) and they were only able to kick them out again with the aid of the titans (and abaddon). So what makes the charr so superior? i dont see it, probably because its not there.

Also charr unity is a lie, the legions only tolerate each other, i bet that if the leader of the iron leagion (dont recall the name) who holds this alliance barelly together, using the ghosts, was to be slain, the charr would crumble under their own weight.

Also you claim asura organize on krewes alone, which is false, krewes are more like work groups, they disband and reform according to needs, but the charr also organize into warbands, and warbands fight each other and there are many rivalrys, and whoever has no warband is an outcast. On what does a normal charr rely the most? its legion or its warband? what comes first at the end of the day?

[Avish]

Nalano, on 27 December 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Charr.

If the Asuran technological advantage was so great, why were they kicked out of their underground homes to a bunch of unorganized dragon minions?

That was way over 200 years ago though, they could have advanced a lot more in that time.

Edited by Avish, 28 December 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[draxynnic]

That applies to both sides, though - we can't judge charr capabilities now based on what happened in the past.

Blades does make a valid point, though - while the asura were driven out by the destroyers, we're told that there were numerous civilisations that were outright destroyed by the destroyers, while the only survivors from the Depths are the asura (who evacuated with their society largely intact) and the skritt (who basically seem to have survived by breeding and migrating so rapidly that even the destroyers couldn't catch them all). Failing to hold back a concerted attack by dragon minions isn't an indication of weakness - to date, no race has survived such a concerted attack alone (the Dragonbrand doesn't count since Kralkatorrik doesn't seem to be interested in launching full scale invasions from the Brand) - only the Pact has succeeded in taking on the full force of an elder dragon and winning.

[madmaxII]

I don't know, maybe I am missing something, but whenever I see some more advanced technology that just works the way it is supposed to work it is charr technology. The asura one always requires ooze, energy, long power-up times or whatever before they can finally use it.

Easy win for the charr, in my opinion. They have the superior physical force and they can rely on their equipment.

[flameseeker]

Also regarding full military group vs small cell unit operations we got enough cases in the real world on how that develops.

Vietnam is a fine example on how a larger, organized  and more technologically advanced military group got their asses kicked no matter how much time passed.
Now in the middle east we're just watching a similar campaign, where it seems they might be "winning" or doing something when it's actually just a black hole of resources with the excuse of war on terrorism and prospects of cheaper oil.

Having the more powerful gun when you can't use it or the largest army when it works against you isn't the best conditions to go on an attrition fight, and that's pretty much why in the long run asura would win.

[Brynjar]

That's also a good point. The Charr really haven't fought on a large scale anywhere outside of Ascalon for the past... ever. Almost their entire history has been fighting the humans in Ascalon, fighting Ebonhawke in Ascalon, fighting the Foefire ghosts and Flame Legion in Ascalon, etc. Their only attempt to fight the Norn ended horribly for them and they never tried again, they never got the chance to fight Orr for obvious reasons, and they lost when they tried to invade Kryta.

The area around Rata Sum is completely different terrain than what the charr are used to. It would be a completely different experience and something the Asura would, hopefully, be prepared to take advantage of.

[Xunlai Agent]

The Asura vote is gaining steadily

[Xukaiwen]

Lyssa, on 13 August 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Asura are very unlikely to attack the Charr head on, even they know it would futile. They would let the Charr come to them. The terrain of the Shiverpeaks and the Maguuma would greatly hinder a Charr army and their siege weaponry. Even if they did manage to take Soren Draa, Rata Sum is nigh impregnable.

On the other hand, Asura lack the clout or organisation to stage a counter-offensive. So it's a stalemate.

Good point.  I think the charr would get into a slogged-down offensive and become vulnerable to an asuran counter-attack.  However, the charr are far more organized and disciplined.  As far as supply-chains and logistics go, the charr would methodically grind down the asura.

I think it would go down to how well the charr survive/respond to an asuran counter-attack as the charr near Rata Sum.  If the charr anticipate and neutralize, the war is over.  If the asura manage to pull of a Hiroshima/Orr on the charr without destroying themselves, the asura have a chance, but it is only a puncher's chance.  The charr are too well organized and supplied whereas the asura are brilliant but scattered and can't work with each other.

[Raagar Deathclaw]

The charr will win, end of story. While the asura do have gates which at this point only the asura understand the charr are far more superior in organization, martial ability and strategy. The asura may be able to make a nuke but then they'll argue over who actually "invented" it and who gets to push the button, while the asura argue the charr will storm in through every conceivable entrance and step on the asura.

[kendro1200]

All the Asura would have to do is build a moat around Rata Sum and the Charr wouldn't be able to do anything.  Cat-cows don't like water

In all seriousness though, a conflict between the two really depends on which side is the aggressor.  In Ascalon the Charr would win, without question (unless the Asura somehow managed to form an actually unified system of government, and not work under their current loose coalition).  Outside of Ascalon the Charr would have issues, most notably supply lines, whereas Asura have the ability to basically teleport supplies and troops wherever they need (they just need a receiving gate in place, which could be done with scouts).  While large military conflicts may go better for Charr, the Asura, just due to their mobility and independent nature, would most likely fair better using hit and run tactics with bombings and sabotage.


On the other hand, Charr and Asura actively working together could probably dominate anything on the face of Kryta.  Asura bringing brains, Charr bringing efficiency and practicality.

Edited by kendro1200, 07 February 2013 - 11:21 PM.