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Charr anatomy: a perplexity


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#1 Lun

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:10 PM

So I was messing around in the character creation, and realized that male charr all have a pretty evident six pack and in general a very human-like torso:

Posted Image


This surprised me, as, since I've always played as a female charr, I always judged their torso to look less human, and more like a human/feline hybrid, just like the rest of their body.

Look:

Posted Image

Now, I'm no expert of anatomy, but I got the impression the male charr have a more human body (more like the tauren from WoW, if you will) while the female charr look more animalic. This creates a jarring discrepancy between the two body types.

ANet seems to know their stuff really well when it comes to design, though, so is there something about basic muscle structure that I am missing here?

#2 Alberel

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

Well the Charr alternate between quadrupedal and bipedal stances so it's not too surprising that they'd have similar muscle structure to the other humanoid races... the females only lack them for the same reason that human females lack them, they're just not as toned/defined.

Edited by Alberel, 13 August 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#3 dd790

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

Does this mean charr are actually some sort of primate rather than felid?

The bipedal and quadrupedal movement, the arms at the side not the front, muscle shape is more primate

I always just too them for some sort of big cat at first glance but they do seem alot like primates when you think about it. (they were always humanoid, but so are Asura and Syvlari yet I never considered the Charr this human...)

#4 Syncline

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

Am I misremembering that there is a female option with more defined abs? I could've sworn I saw that in the BWE1 chargen.

#5 Yol

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:05 PM

You've only just noticed this about charr anatomy? Ok, well, when you're done with that and are ready to move on to something more challenging, I'll point you in the direction of centaur anatomy....are all of the organs in the humanoid chest and abdomen also present in the equine chest and abdomen? :blink:

#6 Garambola

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

There is a female with more defined abs. My test character had those.

However, now that I think of it, maybe it is not actually that they have more muscles. Maybe they just have shorter fur?

#7 Elan

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:22 PM

View PostGarambola, on 13 August 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

There is a female with more defined abs. My test character had those.

However, now that I think of it, maybe it is not actually that they have more muscles. Maybe they just have shorter fur?

That, or they share a natural quality in that they have a larger distribution of a fat layer throughout their entire anatomy.  Both make sense to me.

#8 JMaggot

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:51 PM

View Postdd790, on 13 August 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Does this mean charr are actually some sort of primate rather than felid?

The bipedal and quadrupedal movement, the arms at the side not the front, muscle shape is more primate

I always just too them for some sort of big cat at first glance but they do seem alot like primates when you think about it. (they were always humanoid, but so are Asura and Syvlari yet I never considered the Charr this human...)

I think that's looking a little too deep into it.  In our world the only humanoids are primates, but Tyria has dozens more species of humanoids that obviously come from animals like birds and felines.  With walking on two legs their muscles would most likely develop to be able to support an upper body to keep it standing up, so I think that is a reasonable explanation of why the Charr have pecs and abs.  Though this is just my best guess, I'm not any kind of evolution theorist or scientist.

Edited by JMaggot, 13 August 2012 - 03:54 PM.


#9 Lun

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:57 PM

What really makes me wonder is how come the female don't look to have such humanlike torso. Is it because if they'd really made their abs actually defined, then they'd look more like males since they don't have breasts?

Do female charr have the same muscle structure of the males, only that we can't see that since they're not as developed?

#10 JMaggot

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostLun, on 13 August 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

What really makes me wonder is how come the female don't look to have such humanlike torso. Is it because if they'd really made their abs actually defined, then they'd look more like males since they don't have breasts?

Do female charr have the same muscle structure of the males, only that we can't see that since they're not as developed?

Yeah, but it's like in real life with something like only 10% of the strongest women are as strong as 75% of men, and females still retain slightly more feline traits.

#11 Lazmira

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:25 PM

This is definately more of a humanistic anatomy based on the muscle placements and structure on the male charr, you must also realize that this all depends on the designers/conept artists. They are the ones creating such creatures so they must of had reasoning behind making the males more robust with human chest anatomy. :s For all we know maybe it just looked 'cooler', a lot of friends and I create creatures for realism but also for a sense of beauty or strength, even if that means going a little wonky on some of the anatomy to reach that 'cool' factor.

Edited by Lazmira, 13 August 2012 - 05:28 PM.


#12 Hosp

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:58 PM

My main issue with the charr is that they're so hunched over, when there are upright standing charr in the game.. And they look absolutely awesome.

Anet should have used those models for playable charr. :(

#13 Princess Fatora

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostJMaggot, on 13 August 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Yeah, but it's like in real life with something like only 10% of the strongest women are as strong as 75% of men, and females still retain slightly more feline traits.

That's actually a common misconception, with equal upbringing, the average strength isn't all that different and would more be like 70% of women being as strong as 75% of men. The vast majority of the strength variance has more to do with varied physical activity in childhood. Boys are encouraged to do all sorts of things more that all involve physical activity outdoors, which has a huge effect on muscle building and strength.

Sorry, scientist here, I had to :P

#14 Dew

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:08 PM

Charr had abs and muscle showing in GW1, they also had even more upright walking charr (completely without the hunching pose) so I am not one bit surprised that they are as humanoid as they are.  (reason we cannot play the upright charr is likely that they are associated with the flamelegion)

Pretty sure under the fur or fat reserves or whatever on the females they share the same anatomy as the males. Remember that the females likely has 6 "things" hidden under their fur that can affect the visibility of them abs. :P
Could also be something as simple as Anet/the artteam wanting to be sure that the female charr looked just somewhat feminine although without the boobs.

They are definitely humanoid felines and not primates though.

#15 Baktwerel

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:16 PM

With the right armor, females can have those six-packs too:

View PostWeindrasi, on 05 August 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Posted Image

View PostWeindrasi, on 05 August 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Female charr do have abs! When mine jumped, I noticed them :) They just aren't so distinct

Posted Image

Edited by Baktwerel, 13 August 2012 - 06:17 PM.


#16 The Burning Spear

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostPrincess Fatora, on 13 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

That's actually a common misconception, with equal upbringing, the average strength isn't all that different and would more be like 70% of women being as strong as 75% of men. The vast majority of the strength variance has more to do with varied physical activity in childhood. Boys are encouraged to do all sorts of things more that all involve physical activity outdoors, which has a huge effect on muscle building and strength.

Sorry, scientist here, I had to :P

I learned something today, thank you. :)

#17 Baron Von Stank

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostPrincess Fatora, on 13 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Sorry, scientist here, I had to :P
LOL as if you need to be a scientist to know that.

#18 Matthew Browne

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

View PostLun, on 13 August 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

What really makes me wonder is how come the female don't look to have such humanlike torso. Is it because if they'd really made their abs actually defined, then they'd look more like males since they don't have breasts?

Do female charr have the same muscle structure of the males, only that we can't see that since they're not as developed?

Lore-wise, female charr were pretty much left out of anything related to fighting and battles, they were seen as housewifes of sort (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert), until the Kalla Scorchrazor rebellion, so they surely are not as developed body wise as the male charr, who are intrinsically buff.

But there is indeed one female body preset that has abs, so, there.

#19 Lun

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostMatthew Browne, on 13 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Lore-wise, female charr were pretty much left out of anything related to fighting and battles, they were seen as housewifes of sort (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert), until the Kalla Scorchrazor rebellion, so they surely are not as developed body wise as the male charr, who are intrinsically buff.

But there is indeed one female body preset that has abs, so, there.



I looked through all the female charr body types and I didn't see abs anywhere. Are we sure that the abs don't actually appear only if you wear a certain armour?

#20 Ruefully

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:19 PM

View PostPrincess Fatora, on 13 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

That's actually a common misconception, with equal upbringing, the average strength isn't all that different and would more be like 70% of women being as strong as 75% of men. The vast majority of the strength variance has more to do with varied physical activity in childhood. Boys are encouraged to do all sorts of things more that all involve physical activity outdoors, which has a huge effect on muscle building and strength.

Sorry, scientist here, I had to :P

Yeah, pretty much this. Women aren't really encouraged to be as physically active, physically strong like men are. For instance, if you see men and women (in this case not overweight) at the gym you assume that the male is there to build himself up while you assume the female is there to tone her body or work out because it's considered healthy.

That and we still have terms like 'tomboy' floating around and the idea that 'muscled women are gross' as indications that strong women aren't considered normal nor desired.


Anyway, in an attempt to stay on topic here, my guess is that the male models have abs and the females don't as a way to help people not used to charr to be able to tell the genders apart.
But I like the explanation of 'The females either have more fat to hide their muscles' (probably having to due with being able to bear children) or 'males have shorter fur.'



View PostMatthew Browne, on 13 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Lore-wise, female charr were pretty much left out of anything related to fighting and battles, they were seen as housewifes of sort (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert), until the Kalla Scorchrazor rebellion, so they surely are not as developed body wise as the male charr, who are intrinsically buff.

But there is indeed one female body preset that has abs, so, there.

Mm. No, this doesn't really stack up lore wise. Women had been training in combat for generations (in secret) despite being told they could not participate in war any longer.

#21 UNTYPABLExNAME

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:25 PM

Maybe the male abdomen muscles are more developed because they lick themselves more.

<insert SNL vid of yoga guy>

#22 Weindrasi

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:30 PM

View PostMatthew Browne, on 13 August 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Lore-wise, female charr were pretty much left out of anything related to fighting and battles, they were seen as housewifes of sort (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert), until the Kalla Scorchrazor rebellion, so they surely are not as developed body wise as the male charr, who are intrinsically buff.

But there is indeed one female body preset that has abs, so, there.

This wouldn't be accurate, because Kalla Scorchrazor liberated females 200 years before the present time in Guild Wars 2. They've had equal rights under law more than twice as long as real women in the USA and Europe (voting rights granted in USA in 1920-- only 92 years ago). In addition, there are no gender roles--women in charr society are encouraged to develop huge muscles like the males because they all fight in the army. The reason for it isn't social, but biological--females have more fat reserves & develop muscle more slowly, so on average it wouldn't be as defined.

View PostBaktwerel, on 13 August 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

With the right armor, females can have those six-packs too:

You said it for me :D the female charr do have abs--it just takes belly exposing armor & the correct lighting to see them.

View PostLun, on 13 August 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

So I was messing around in the character creation, and realized that male charr all have a pretty evident six pack and in general a very human-like torso
This surprised me, as, since I've always played as a female charr, I always judged their torso to look less human, and more like a human/feline hybrid, just like the rest of their body.
Now, I'm no expert of anatomy, but I got the impression the male charr have a more human body (more like the tauren from WoW, if you will) while the female charr look more animalic. This creates a jarring discrepancy between the two body types.
ANet seems to know their stuff really well when it comes to design, though, so is there something about basic muscle structure that I am missing here?


...Anyway, in terms of the male torso looking so human, that's because it looked that way in Guild Wars 1. Note the guy in the background in this picture: http://www.google.co...r:18,s:21,i:200

Edited by Weindrasi, 13 August 2012 - 10:36 PM.


#23 Syncline

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostJMaggot, on 13 August 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Yeah, but it's like in real life with something like only 10% of the strongest women are as strong as 75% of men, and females still retain slightly more feline traits.
The strength ratio is a little more even IIRC, but the lighter-framed females are much more agile (and thus equally deadly) than the bulkier males.

It's mostly that the smallest females are smaller than the smallest males, and the biggest males are bigger than the biggest females, but there is a fair amount of overlap in size, and size alone doesn't determine how deadly one can be.

Edited by Syncline, 13 August 2012 - 10:51 PM.


#24 Zunnash

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:56 AM

On the primate vs. feline topic, the charr refer to themselves as felines and even use feline terms sometimes (insultingly or affectionately) such as "kitten."

#25 Razuuli

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:09 AM

I think abs may not be as visible on a Charr female because they have longer/thicker fur (which you can see on their tails as well).

That's my theory anyway.

#26 xValkyrie85

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

Ok this is semi off topic, but still fairly related... Just wanted to mention that the males would also have six nipples. (Science time!) All mammals regardless of sex have them, it's just females have more milk duct tissue and the estrogen/progesterone levels (and other hormones when close to birth) stimulate milk production. And in felines or canines, when they're not producing, the tissue lays flat. (If you've got a female pet, you can see evidence of that) Only some primates keep the busty appearance when not actively producing. (Which I read evolved because of face to face coupling, like chimps and humans, so boobs basically represent a butt, which is the main attractor in mammals.)

Anet on their blog said that when considering boobs on female char, it would've either been six or none and went with none. (Personally, very happy to not have boobs on the charr, I think they made the right choice. Charr in lingerie like some human armor sets would be scary in the wrong way... Lol) But that then makes me wonder if they suckle their young at all, or if they're born with teeth and a digestive tract capable of eating meat. (Think alligator/crocodile, other reptiles, etc) Even lions and tigers get milk for a bit then share in the spoils of mom's kill when they're older. Furthermore, don't charr usually only have one kit at a time? I was under the impression they didn't have litters? (anyone know?) So why would they even have that many nipples: I read somewhere mammals evolved to have two per every one offspring.

Things that make you go "hmmm"... :)

#27 Rukioish

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:00 PM

I will venture a guess that as evolution took place, the male charr (who have always been on the frontlines in battle) began to evolve to stay on par with their adversaries (the humans) as such, the male charr spent much more time standing up and developed muscle structures on par with their enemies.

Female charr, (who have not always been fighters) probably retained most of their more feral features.

#28 Kokocat

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:14 PM

View PostxValkyrie85, on 14 August 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Ok this is semi off topic, but still fairly related... Just wanted to mention that the males would also have six nipples. (Science time!) All mammals regardless of sex have them, it's just females have more milk duct tissue and the estrogen/progesterone levels (and other hormones when close to birth) stimulate milk production. And in felines or canines, when they're not producing, the tissue lays flat. (If you've got a female pet, you can see evidence of that) Only some primates keep the busty appearance when not actively producing. (Which I read evolved because of face to face coupling, like chimps and humans, so boobs basically represent a butt, which is the main attractor in mammals.)

Anet on their blog said that when considering boobs on female char, it would've either been six or none and went with none. (Personally, very happy to not have boobs on the charr, I think they made the right choice. Charr in lingerie like some human armor sets would be scary in the wrong way... Lol) But that then makes me wonder if they suckle their young at all, or if they're born with teeth and a digestive tract capable of eating meat. (Think alligator/crocodile, other reptiles, etc) Even lions and tigers get milk for a bit then share in the spoils of mom's kill when they're older. Furthermore, don't charr usually only have one kit at a time? I was under the impression they didn't have litters? (anyone know?) So why would they even have that many nipples: I read somewhere mammals evolved to have two per every one offspring.

Things that make you go "hmmm"... :)

If you've ever seen a female cat nursing or a lion with cubs, they do develop swelled mammory glans only while nursing. And from your post, you sound like you're saying Charr don't have boobs (which is true) but they also don't have nipples (which is false). They have nipples. They're underneath the fur. How many? Don't know. From the male's physique, I'm assuming two.

@Rukiosh: This has been established at least 2x in this thread. Female charr have been in battle, fought and died just as long as male charr. It wasn't until the Flame Legion discriminated against female charr did they become removed from the battle. Even then, female charr trained in secret until the rebellion led by Kalla Scorchrazor.

Look at the female charr pic if you scroll up. She has abs. Many. Abs.

Edited by Kokocat, 14 August 2012 - 03:15 PM.


#29 Valos_Forgefire

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:15 PM

View PostHosp, on 13 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

My main issue with the charr is that they're so hunched over, when there are upright standing charr in the game.. And they look absolutely awesome.

Anet should have used those models for playable charr. :(
Just want to say that I totally agree with this.
Spoiler

Since I saw that guy in Eotn I wanted to make a Charr like him.

#30 xValkyrie85

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:25 PM

View PostKokocat, on 14 August 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

If you've ever seen a female cat nursing or a lion with cubs, they do develop swelled mammory glans only while nursing. And from your post, you sound like you're saying Charr don't have boobs (which is true) but they also don't have nipples (which is false). They have nipples. They're underneath the fur. How many? Don't know. From the male's physique, I'm assuming two.
Oh, no, I think you just misread my post. :) I'm saying they do have nipples just not busty primate boobs that stay like humans. And I used the number six from what was said in a video talking about female charr that anet released. No idea if they still think they have six, but it makes me wonder, especially if they only have one baby at a time instead of a litter. The males could still have six under the fur, you can't see any. Felines and canines still have abdominal muscles with nipples over them, they just don't stand upright and have the muscle turned into a stronger core like bipedal creatures do.

So basically we agree on the general idea, I'm just throwing more questions without answers out there. Lol :)




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