67 replies to this topic

[Phoenix_Down89]

Just wondering why so many guilds are trying to cram into Jade Quarry? I've been following http://www.gw2guilds.org/ and if you look under US servers Jade Quarry is up to around 73 guilds!, I'm sure they all wont be able to get all their members into the server.

[Eldaran]

Yeah I just saw this today as well. Not sure what all the hubbub is about. I do know that it was chosen as a DAOC vet server though.

[Treble]

Might be the DAOC vets and PVP players (from other MMO's) server. Which means the server all the scrubs will stack for e-peen purposes and zerging.

Plus, if you look at the number of guild members, you'll see that some servers actually have a larger overall population than Jade Quarry. Ascension alliance, for example, has like 200 people per guild. Blackgate server has a couple guilds with 400 people and a few more between 150-200. Crystal Desert looks to be on par with Jade Quarry in terms of raw population. Jade looks to have mostly guilds with only 20-40 members each and a handful with 100 or more.

Edited by Treble, 13 August 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[DeConstruct]

It's going to suck for them when the server ends up locked due to too many people. Meaning that there will be 73 half-guilds and the 73 other halves stuck outside.

[Phoenix_Down89]

Oh I see, but still there are like 3 pretty empty servers some of those bigger guilds could go to, but im sure like you've said once people see them going they'll all want to follow haha

[Ostra]

There seem to be a lot of smaller established guilds on Jade Quarry. These guild come from DAoC and W:AR mostly. Our leaders in WvW seem to come from multiple guilds not just one large alliance. There are a couple alliances but none of the guilds tend to be the super hardcore type... well I am sure there will be a few but the JQ server isnt called the Elder server for nothing. Rough gestimate from me is average playerbase is around 40. Not max... average.

With that said... we have a lot of experience in WvW style fighting and it is very easy to get coordination between all these guilds as we all want the same thing... to do our best in WvW and represent our server well. Fort Aspendwood, Gates of Madness, and Crystal Desert can easily bring more people out in force faster then we can... but we hold our own pretty darn well.

[Treble]

Ostra, on 13 August 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

There seem to be a lot of smaller established guilds on Jade Quarry. These guild come from DAoC and W:AR mostly. Our leaders in WvW seem to come from multiple guilds not just one large alliance. There are a couple alliances but none of the guilds tend to be the super hardcore type... well I am sure there will be a few but the JQ server isnt called the Elder server for nothing. Rough gestimate from me is average playerbase is around 40. Not max... average.

With that said... we have a lot of experience in WvW style fighting and it is very easy to get coordination between all these guilds as we all want the same thing... to do our best in WvW and represent our server well. Fort Aspendwood, Gates of Madness, and Crystal Desert can easily bring more people out in force faster then we can... but we hold our own pretty darn well.

Aye. I figured this. JQ will have a good base of solid WvW guilds for the most part.

To be clear, I only meant that all the scrub players will see the old school PVP guilds rolling on JQ and will likely bandwagon the hell out of it.

Though I could see the scrub players bandwagoning whatever server the big alliances end up on as well.

Something can also be said of the Reddit zerg. I think it was Darkhaven during the BWE's. That server was zergtastic.

Edited by Treble, 13 August 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[Voison]

Treble, on 13 August 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Might be the DAOC vets and PVP players (from other MMO's) server. Which means the server all the scrubs will stack for e-peen purposes and zerging.

Great another zerg server lol.

[Onigokko]

Voison, on 14 August 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

Great another zerg server lol.

In a game like this, with big WvW combat there will ALWAYS be zergs.

However Anet actually made a smart decision with including side-objectives for small groups to capture.

The Zerg will rush the fort, while the smaller groups cap the other areas

[Voison]

Onigokko, on 14 August 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

In a game like this, with big WvW combat there will ALWAYS be zergs.

However Anet actually made a smart decision with including side-objectives for small groups to capture.

The Zerg will rush the fort, while the smaller groups cap the other areas

I know there will always be zergs. I was just hopping for less servers full of zergs.

[Treble]

Voison, on 14 August 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

I know there will always be zergs. I was just hopping for less servers full of zergs.

Yeah. But the sad reality is that all of the "best" servers will be zerg servers. Even the big alliances that pride themselves on organization will mainly be successful by outnumbering the opposing server.

But I guess something can be said about organization when three of the biggest servers go at it.

Edited by Treble, 14 August 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[Verene]

Jade Quarry has a lot of guilds listed - but a lot of them are also quite small.

My guild is there because of the fact that Eternal Grove was removed from the world list for BWE3, and JQ had been our second choice in the first place, so we hopped over there.

Also, lists like that can be really misleading. The number of guilds that are registered on a site like that is not in any way indicative of how populated a server will or won't be.

[Koosh]

Definition of a zerg in this game:  When the enemy has more numbers than my team and I cannot do anything but trade space for time.

I'm sorry I don't know what anyone is thinking when you go 100v100v100.  Organization of any means goes out the window.  Tell me how you organize large scale PVP?  It's impossible it degenerates into a moshpit regardless how you move your team.  Yes you can focus fire and find slim performance gains but beyond that there isn't much you can do.  So if you don't want large scale pvp go play sPVP.  To complain about a zerg is just humorous within itself because if you think you can organize a team of people from all over the world or a country into a cohesive unit without in person team building your living in lala land.

It's about developing appropriate expectations.  We imagine medeival battles when we think WvWvW.  There are numerous reasons why we will never see anything like this in games.  The primary reason is time.  I don't believe I really need to get into this so I'll cut my reply here.

Appropriate expectation.

Anyways, slowing a zerg with a few well played characters with interupts/slows/diversions is a whole hell of a lot of fun within itself.  It may suck losing a keep but there are times attritution leads to victory even in W3.

[Onigokko]

Koosh, on 14 August 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Definition of a zerg in this game:  When the enemy has more numbers than my team and I cannot do anything but trade space for time.

I'm sorry I don't know what anyone is thinking when you go 100v100v100.  Organization of any means goes out the window.  Tell me how you organize large scale PVP?  It's impossible it degenerates into a moshpit regardless how you move your team.  Yes you can focus fire and find slim performance gains but beyond that there isn't much you can do.  So if you don't want large scale pvp go play sPVP.  To complain about a zerg is just humorous within itself because if you think you can organize a team of people from all over the world or a country into a cohesive unit without in person team building your living in lala land.

It's about developing appropriate expectations.  We imagine medeival battles when we think WvWvW.  There are numerous reasons why we will never see anything like this in games.  The primary reason is time.  I don't believe I really need to get into this so I'll cut my reply here.

Appropriate expectation.

Anyways, slowing a zerg with a few well played characters with interupts/slows/diversions is a whole hell of a lot of fun within itself.  It may suck losing a keep but there are times attritution leads to victory even in W3.

Ive been in Eve battles with easily that many people that stayed organised.

It simply requires Tier Leadership, it happened by having one person [useually an alliance leader] call the shots. Obviously its hard to have 100 people on say- ventrillo which means alot of it has to do with trickle down orders. The leader basically gave orders to smaller fleets.

Its hard yes, but not impossible

I doubt you will see full organisation in this game the likes Eve had, but a large alliance can for the most part put out a well organised front in WvWvW

Edited by Onigokko, 14 August 2012 - 05:17 AM.

[Treble]

Koosh, on 14 August 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Definition of a zerg in this game:  When the enemy has more numbers than my team and I cannot do anything but trade space for time.

I'm sorry I don't know what anyone is thinking when you go 100v100v100.  Organization of any means goes out the window.  Tell me how you organize large scale PVP?  It's impossible it degenerates into a moshpit regardless how you move your team.  Yes you can focus fire and find slim performance gains but beyond that there isn't much you can do.  So if you don't want large scale pvp go play sPVP.  To complain about a zerg is just humorous within itself because if you think you can organize a team of people from all over the world or a country into a cohesive unit without in person team building your living in lala land.

It's about developing appropriate expectations.  We imagine medeival battles when we think WvWvW.  There are numerous reasons why we will never see anything like this in games.  The primary reason is time.  I don't believe I really need to get into this so I'll cut my reply here.

Appropriate expectation.

Anyways, slowing a zerg with a few well played characters with interupts/slows/diversions is a whole hell of a lot of fun within itself.  It may suck losing a keep but there are times attritution leads to victory even in W3.

Lol why so defensive?

A zerg is a zerg is a zerg. Large, unorganized groups of people. Of course it's inevitable. No one's complaining, just stating facts.

The "best" servers will be zerg servers - that much I can guarantee. No amount of organization is going to save a group of 10 from a group of 50 in open combat. An argument can be made for holding off a siege, but even that can only last for so long. No organization needed to outnumber someone.

Yes, I know there's a pop limit in WvWvW. But it's also based on attrition, meaning which server can keep max pop longer (I know Jade Quarry will have trouble fielding players at awkward hours compared to other large servers, but will probably still outnumber backwater servers considerably), and which server can concentrate their zerg on key points on the map (it's still a zerg even if you manage to tell a hundred pubbies to attack a keep).

From there, the top servers will be organized based almost exclusively on population. Only AFTER that, will the more organized high-pop servers begin to splinter off from the other high-pop servers that only depended on their numbers. So, yes, organization will matter to a certain degree after the dust has settled.

Doesn't change the fact that the low-pop servers will generally be stuck around the middle or the end of the pool, despite how much more skilled their players may or may not be compared to the high pop servers. I also don't see low-pop servers banding together against the high-pop they get bracketed with, at least not this early in the game. So no arguments about 3 realms yadda yadda.

If anything, it'll be interesting to see what kind of inter-server peace treaties the high-pop servers form in order to keep each other from the very top.

No, I'm not on a low-pop server.

Edited by Treble, 14 August 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[AzylynneN]

For anyone interested in Jade Quarry... please know this...

A. Population is getting crowded, in parts.  had some WvW queues during BWE2, and definitely BWE3 on Sunday (not counting the issues during Friday/Saturday).  Stress Test 5 & 6 were a little round... queues into WvW were at least a few minutes depending where you were going.  There was lag, but I guess there was lag everywhere.  Personally, I thought the pop caps were lowered for these tests.  Not totally sure.  We were still medium/high pop for BWE3 though... I think, unlike many EU servers which got full.

B. Other JQers may not like this but... Crystal Desert and Fort Aspenwood outplayed us for both ST5 and ST6... albeit both were either messed up or much much shorter in time frame.  CD and FA were both MUCH quicker on the EBG ram race to get to the Lord.  Usually FA had the upperhand right away.  Their zergs also seemed to come out in force and had more levels of coordination...

C. Which leads us to how JQ plays in WvW...

Age.  As others have stated, a solid core of guilds are from the older Daoc/Warhammer days.  Many of us are older, married, with children, and careers...  Players often dig out for a short bit for a work call, or baby needs feeding or something, or someone gets... wife or husband aggro (I just pretend I can't hear her...not good).  Not saying all our players are like this, but from the Relics, and many of the somewhat more notorious guilds of yester year... that's us.  I don't think we have the hardcore-ness to keep up.  Going four hours straight on a Stress Test... is possibly a bit too much.  I remember chatting with guildies and friends on vent how my back was straining, or someone else was in pain, etc.  And let's see... ST6... guildies were at work, work, had to leave early for baby shower... =(

Honey Badger Style Guilds.  Many of the older daoc/War guilds I imagine as honey badgers.  They are tenacious, tough, stubborn, independent, and will keep on getting back up to fight.  Did I say stubborn?  Leadership wise, JQ is not quite as zergy as most would thing.  Like sure there's a main zerg running around hitting the bigger larger objectives... but there's also many smaller independent guilds that just want to do their own thing, avoid the zergs, but help out in the overall map efforts.  That's kinda nice.  But at the same time, you're not really gonna see two badgers standing side by side singing a Glee medley.  People will do what they wanna do... there's no realm boss, no server commander, and even the large alliance is more of a co-op loosely formed conglomoration of guilds working together... except they have VOIP, which failed I think during ST3 or 4.  They are looking into a new one.   Meanwhile, all the other guilds are either using their own VOIP, or none at all.  Coordinate with tech?  Nah, we used /map chat back in the day, and that's what worked and that's what we're gonna use now! (in a grandpa voice... and err, I'm probably the only one who says that).

JQ is unfortunately not an "easy win" server.  We takes our losses and licks too.  We were beat throughout the betas and Stress Tests.  Mind you we won some too...I'd say we're about 50/50 especially after testing our mettle against CD and FA (again).  So yes, if you're looking for an easy win... JQ is probably not the place for you.  If you're looking to join a community of young, hip, hardcore gamers... you'll find yourself getting more hardcore trolled by our... "hardcore" old time gamers. However, JQ will fight... and will not easily roll over.  Even if we're getting demolished, our stubborn idiots of gamers (myself included) are going to try and do everything spend every last gold, karma, and Badge of Honor to spite our foes... it's like getting stung by a thousand bees, or getting bit by a cobra... we'll keep on fighting cause we just don't give a $*(%#.

Anyhow, take it as you will, but this is kinda where JQ is right now.

DISCLAIMER: this entire post is from the perspective of only a SINGLE player on JQ.  Often he says "we", but in truth, there's no one really there with him, except for maybe his dogs.  He does this a lot in video stuff.  Idiot.

[Shasow]

What's DAOC?

Edit: Never mind, I think it's Dark Ages of Camelot.

Edited by Shasow, 14 August 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[VictoriaRxo]

Azy, I usually always agree with you, and while I agree there may in fact be a few guilds that may be a bit older... I'm sure you're aware each server could possibly have tens of thousands of players. So saying that JQ is an 'older' server would simply be inaccurate. All servers will have older gamers. All servers will have people who have children, and pets, and spouses to take care of. I don't think JQ will be any more 'mature' or 'wise' than any other server to be honest. Will there be people who are stubborn and fight to the bitter end? Maybe so, but the same applies on every other server as well.
I don't like pigeon-holing any server as the official anything. JQ has enough good guilds to have some easy wins, it will also take horrible losses, like every server.

Edited by VictoriaRxo, 14 August 2012 - 11:02 AM.
no need for that.

[Ashanor]

A lot of ex DAoC players from these forums also rolled on Sorrow's Furnace.

I actually thought it was our unofficial choice until yesterday when someone told me another large group rolled on JQ.

[Grimsy]

Koosh, on 14 August 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Definition of a zerg in this game:  When the enemy has more numbers than my team and I cannot do anything but trade space for time.

I'm sorry I don't know what anyone is thinking when you go 100v100v100.  Organization of any means goes out the window.  Tell me how you organize large scale PVP?  It's impossible it degenerates into a moshpit regardless how you move your team.  Yes you can focus fire and find slim performance gains but beyond that there isn't much you can do.  So if you don't want large scale pvp go play sPVP.  To complain about a zerg is just humorous within itself because if you think you can organize a team of people from all over the world or a country into a cohesive unit without in person team building your living in lala land.

It's about developing appropriate expectations.  We imagine medeival battles when we think WvWvW.  There are numerous reasons why we will never see anything like this in games.  The primary reason is time.  I don't believe I really need to get into this so I'll cut my reply here.

Appropriate expectation.

Anyways, slowing a zerg with a few well played characters with interupts/slows/diversions is a whole hell of a lot of fun within itself.  It may suck losing a keep but there are times attritution leads to victory even in W3.

I agree with you and I think if they had some form of hierarchy as done in other games (the only example I can think of at the moment being RF Online where they had a Race Leader) then that might make it easier for the masses to be organized within WvWvW. Although it's most likely too late to add something like that.

But! that being said if a guild WvWvW's together I suppose seperate small organized groups can make a big difference. Good example of this was some video I came accross of a guild using their Guild Leader who was a mesmer to set up a portal and teleport the uild behind enemies lines so they could flank the zergfest and it was hilarious and effective!

[Noxid]

Lord...this game is about helping each other....if there are people cramming to get on your server...you should be happy, NOT try to push them out.

It's not your right to claim a server and then think no one else can join it. People are paying for a game to play, they get to choose where they want to play.

If you have queue times, who cares....go and do a million other things you can go do while waiting for the queue to pop.

If you can't take that the population of your server is going up, GTFO, and move on to a low population server like the FUBAR alliance did.

[Voison]

Treble, on 14 August 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

Yeah. But the sad reality is that all of the "best" servers will be zerg servers. Even the big alliances that pride themselves on organization will mainly be successful by outnumbering the opposing server.

But I guess something can be said about organization when three of the biggest servers go at it.

Not always true, on one of the stress tests, one of the groups I ran with got out numbered. We were able to hold off with better organization skills and better team work. What I saw during the stress test was a massive amount of players bashing at doors and walls, and not winning even when things looked grim for my team. Not every team has to have the biggest numbers to win. I'm apart of Team Legacy and my group is based on defending only in WvW (aka getting rushed by massive amount of people with little numbers). So far we've only lost a few WvW match ups so far. I'm not saying were gonna be #1 or the best, I'm just saying not all the  "best" servers will be zerg servers. The Ascension alliance (Well Team legacy) is not zerging, we are not moving in one large group to take everything, we are spread out.

To many a zerg is not just a massive amount of people, its also people just bashing at a gate or wall not paying attention to their surroundings or their HP and slowly get picked off. Its not impossible to defend against a zerg, you just have to have great organization within the guild / group. Sorry you don't think its even possible, but keep your eyes out once the game launchs.


(The game I was talking about was Fridays maybe Thursday Stress test, pic below)
http://i49.tinypic.com/dmtwl4.jpg

Try asking Fort Aspenwood what happened on the bridge near a supply camp in FA borderlands that day.. We were outnumbered and still got through with a well placed siege weapon and holding them off. When you have 30+ people on a narrow bridge with no where to go, its not going to be pretty.

Edited by Voison, 14 August 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[stonelead]

My guild is on JQ, and ae part of the alliance... as far as WvW went however I concur... we kind of sucked... we lost against the best servers.

My guild is pushing 23 people atm,

[Treble]

Voison, on 14 August 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Not always true, on one of the stress tests, one of the groups I ran with got out numbered. We were able to hold off with better organization skills and better team work. What I saw during the stress test was a massive amount of players bashing at doors and walls, and not winning even when things looked grim for my team. Not every team has to have the biggest numbers to win. I'm apart of Team Legacy and my group is based on defending only in WvW (aka getting rushed by massive amount of people with little numbers). So far we've only lost a few WvW match ups so far. I'm not saying were gonna be #1 or the best, I'm just saying not all the  "best" servers will be zerg servers. The Ascension alliance (Well Team legacy) is not zerging, we are not moving in one large group to take everything, we are spread out.

To many a zerg is not just a massive amount of people, its also people just bashing at a gate or wall not paying attention to their surroundings or their HP and slowly get picked off. Its not impossible to defend against a zerg, you just have to have great organization within the guild / group. Sorry you don't think its even possible, but keep your eyes out once the game launchs.


(The game I was talking about was Fridays maybe Thursday Stress test, pic below)
http://i49.tinypic.com/dmtwl4.jpg

Try asking Fort Aspenwood what happened on the bridge near a supply camp in FA borderlands that day.. We were outnumbered and still got through with a well placed siege weapon and holding them off. When you have 30+ people on a narrow bridge with no where to go, its not going to be pretty.

You can't even compare CD to a low pop server, because your alliance alone outnumbers most servers. I seem to recall people having a tough time to get into WvW on CD because it was full until after a few major battles already took place. So this whole, "we beat a zerg when we were outnumbered" thing TL keeps talking about, cool. But there were quite a number of other battles during that bracket, and they weren't lopsided numbers. In fact, I struggle to think of a situation where Ascension were outnumbered as a whole, and not just in isolated battles (this applies to the other big alliances/servers).

I also said that when it comes to high pop versus high pop, that's when organization will tip the balance. So no, I'm not saying zergs are unbeatable. But don't try to say a low pop will beat a high pop, because the high pop will beat them on numbers alone. Just look at the CD vs Darkhaven vs Sanctum of Rall (I think those were the three). Sure, SoR put up a fight in a few skirmishes, but what was the end score? Oh yeah, CD and DH were at 5000 and 4000 while SoR was at about 600? Lol. As far as I can remember, Darkhaven is the Reddit zerg server, and SoR is actually a pretty organized server -- just very small.

So, yes, all the "best" servers will be the ones who can field the largest amount of people. The margin for error in a large population is just a lot smaller. Yeah, a small garrison can hold off a large unorganized siege until help arrives (this is true in real life as well), but let it go on long enough and people in that mindless zerg will eventually get the bright idea to build catapults and battering rams.

And before anyone makes assumptions, no, I'm not from Fort Aspenwood. Not even in a guild (not interested at the moment). I'm a WvW drifter. I like to think of myself as an independent intelligence agent, and I just like observing these things.

Edited by Treble, 14 August 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Dharknite]

I only chose Jade Quarry cause at time I made a character it was med pop. Though I did it seems it will be crowded because WvW always had a queue and I spent more time on the overflow than on the regular server. I typically stick with servers I played on in beta when a game launches and though I really liked WAR, I think this time I will move to a hopefully a less crowded server.  I am glad I saw this post it explains why the server seemed so crowded.

Edited by Dharknite, 14 August 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Lazmira]

I played on Jade Quarry for most betas and now think of staying there, as much as people think it's being 'zerged' it wasn't when I was on.. We have a strong WvW team and my god it was fun playing there. So maybe guilds may have seen we were doing well and decided to hop on our server for launch? However even though we won some matches, the servers with the most wins were servers such as Yak's bend so I expected more servers to hop there.. This really sorta surprised me. People are also extremely nice on Jade, barely ever had trolls let alone people blaming others. No one even blamed each other when we were suffering on crystal desert's continent because we were getting highly outnumbered.

This doesn't mean Jade will be vitcories for WvW however, I bet once Gw2 launches there will be a variety of servers doing well! I must say though some of the guilds on jade are incredibly nice.. Think I already found one to join.

The last little thing I noticed also was that Jade was one of the more vocal servers as it has it's own website dedicated for Jade players only, not to mention a lot WvWer on this site posted Jade battles. So maybe visual media sparked the population?

Edited by Lazmira, 14 August 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[prism2525]

Anybody who is really serious about their PvP will be there as soon as the servers open to get a spot in.

[AzylynneN]

VictoriaRxo, on 14 August 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Azy, I usually always agree with you, and while I agree there may in fact be a few guilds that may be a bit older... I'm sure you're aware each server could possibly have tens of thousands of players. So saying that JQ is an 'older' server would simply be inaccurate. All servers will have older gamers. All servers will have people who have children, and pets, and spouses to take care of. I don't think JQ will be any more 'mature' or 'wise' than any other server to be honest. Will there be people who are stubborn and fight to the bitter end? Maybe so, but the same applies on every other server as well.
I don't like pigeon-holing any server as the official anything. JQ has enough good guilds to have some easy wins, it will also take horrible losses, like every server.

Vic, you are right.  I would like to say I typed my post up when I was half drunk, but I don't really drink...so maybe when I was half asleep?  I also added a disclaimer on the bottom for just that reason.  However, I would be interested in a demographic study for the various servers... and see what the age, location, and whatever breakdowns would be.  But that isn't happening any time soon.  =)

prism2525, on 14 August 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Anybody who is really serious about their PvP will be there as soon as the servers open to get a spot in.

Actually, I don't know if this is particularly true.  There's been some discussion on the opening moves during the first week of the server match ups... during the one day matches.  A number of "semi-hardcore" WvW "players" are considering staying out of WvW and doing PvE.  Partially to level up and get Skill Challenges, but also to make some money for siege gear.  Maybe it's because we're not used to the new loot drop rates in WvW... I dunno.  I know several are planning to do this partially to avoid the queues.

The initial ladder ranks don't seem to be a high priority for at least a few of the JQers...  like it doesn't matter where the server places when we begin the two week matches.

Then again, maybe these players are not "serious" enough.  =(

[Corvindi]

Drat. If it weren't for the likelihood of long queue times, I'd probably go with this server.

[Tyrindor]

I'll likely be going with the 3rd or 4th most popular server.

Best of both worlds, not terribly long queues and good population during off hours.