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Longbow / Axe/Horn crit / power build


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#1 Anelyn

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:00 AM

http://gw2skills.net...KLVOqkUtIYQwGEA

Hey guys, here is my attempt at a ranger build based on power & crit, with longbow and axe/horn.

Since I did not play with a ranger yet, I am not sure how good my survival would be with 18k hp and 2.1k armor (I could probably tweak it a bit to jump over 20k hp and maybe add a bit more toughness at cost of some crit chance / cdamage).

Any suggestions / opinions appreciated, thanks!

EDIT: re-linked to ranger build, for some reason simply copy / paste on the address at top did not work, but there was a get link button down on page! My appologies!

Edited by Anelyn, 14 August 2012 - 08:24 AM.


#2 Haku

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:15 AM

You linked a thief build.

#3 Arkano

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:27 AM

Glass cannon build. Big damage but 18k with 1k toughness make you very squishy. For hotjoin, wvw, pve its ok, but a bit dangerous build for tournaments. You should sacrifice some of precision (you have 2 furys source (horn and swich weapons) and 62% crit chance atm) to get some toughness imho.
Or change runes for others more defensive (vit or tough).

#4 Sycthrex

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:57 AM

I would swap your Hydromancy Sigil for Superior Battle and 1k toughness is lowwwww, you will be destroyed

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#5 Anelyn

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:32 PM

Thanks for your responses!

How would be the best way to increase my toughness (and a bit more hp as well), via talents or runes / amulet? Because I'd rather switch some of the runes to keep my traits as they sort of make the build no?
And, what would be an adequate amount of toughness / vit you would recommend for tPvP on a ranger? (got no tpvp experience with ranger, I can only guess that they can be evasive and keep range to sort of flank the enemy, limiting their movement with traps and muddy terrain) and unleash combos (like rapid fire) on assist targets which get CCed, prevents enemy stomps via pet CCs and has some group utility via warhorn and ultimate.

Here is a modified version http://gw2skills.net...KLVOqkUtIYQwWEA using knights amulet which puts me at 23k hp while keeping a good crit chance / cdamage with a small loss to power. Also added signet of renewal to be able to have somewhat control of conditions on myself as well as on my team.

While I understand your point about toughness, which helps with DD / burst damage, I believe is easiest type of damage to avoid / mitigate via skills / evasion / positioning unlike condition based damage hence why I'd rather prefer a bit higher HP over toughness.

I believe that pet will play a major role in helping you control enemies and keep out of harm's way most of the time (please correct me if I am wrong, I know pets are a bit buggy at times, but I suppose using the passive stance you have better control when your pets use their skills and on which target?). I did consider going signets for stability and invulnerability (going 30 in Marksmanship for effect share on signets) but the long cooldowns really put me off and don't justify unless you are planning to sit on a backline point alone to defend it vs 1+ possible attackers and just outlast until help arrives (in which case a tanky build would be more suitable anyway, probable with a shortbow condition build).

I see myself as a good roamer / enforcer with steady and spike DD, some utility skills, nice control, able to help out where is needed and making a strong presence via my dmg in a team setting.

#6 Nettle

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:50 PM

I'm assuming this is a tourney build from your last post.  It's hard to rate tourney builds without knowing your team comp, because a tourney build relies as much on how well all 5 team builds gel together.  You can get away with not taking some things if other team members do.

LB is probably our worst tourney weapon, so if this build doesn't work well for you that's the first thing I'd look into swapping out.  Other good physical options are sword, OH axe, greatsword.  That would change your trait line quite a bit though, so I'll make suggestions assuming you are keeping LB.  

You are pretty overkill on the immobilize with muddy terrain and 2 immobilize pets.  You don't need that much unless you are going full melee (and even then probably not).

Sharpened edges is a weak trait, especially outside of a condition build.  It's a 50% chance on crit for 1 second of bleed.  Piercing arrows is very debatable as an effective tourney trait, especially without SB.  Steady focus as well.  You should hardly ever have a full endurance bar.

Your elite is fine, but if you want to be a stronger team player consider entangle.  Especially since you are carrying warhorn already.

I'd swap one of the pets out.  Hyena is a great CC option, moas for team support, the bear with aoe condi removal, stun pet is decent but hard to use well.

Since this is tourney, I'd highly recommend healing spring over HaO.  The aoe team condition removal is huge, especially against the current trend of condition heavy builds.

You are glass cannon, but that's not as bad as glass cannon on something naturally squishy like a thief or ele, so it could be pulled off. Toughness isn't a huge deal atm because the meta is leaning towards heavy condition setups, which toughness does not mitigate.  Good vitality and condition removal is fine.

Your crit is already so so high, I'd get rid of the crit chance runes.  Use something like life steal or lightning strike on crit for more damage.

#7 Anelyn

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:28 PM

Thanks! Appreciated!

I did couple changes again, I will use a sword / warhorn now instead of axe / horn.

The idea behind all the immobilize effects is that long bow doesn't have a snare. All the range and damage is not good when you can't hit a moving target. I swapped sharpened edges for 30% movement speed on pet (since I want them to apply the CC / debuffs as fast as possible when I give them the command to do so).

Piercing arrows looks to me as a staple for LB since you don't want your damage to be mitigated / dennied by a simple pet / turret or another player stepping between you and your target. I was picturing a rapid fire with pierce can hit more than 1 player during the channel which would add quite some pressure on enemy team, same with the point blank shot if there's someone behind your target and in range they should get knocked back as well (unless I completely misunderstood piercing arrow and it only works with 1 skill).

Outside of 1vsX situation, I believe a ranger role is to stay in the back line and flank the enemy providing utility and burst / steady DD on called targets, so you shouldn't really have to spam dodges. I mean what would be the point for the enemy team to leave the control node and pursue / focus on the ranger while rest of his team is on the control point area? And because of this is why I believe piercing arrows will be very good, since in most fights for a node control, teams are rather clumped up so you have a higher chance to hit more targets with your skills due to pierce.

Also having those immobilize / stun & KD available should make you very good at peeling for your team, as well as for example, preventing someone to reach a downed ally to rally them, or stomp a friendly downed team member.

Yes healing spring is the better choice for Tpvp and am even considering SoN elite for that aspect as well (i admit that RaO was mainly to counter mesmers in 1v1 situation when defending a node, since once applied, even if you get MOA on you, your pet should still put loads of pressure on the mesmer itself while you just try to LOS him - supposing that MoA does not cancel the effect on the pet as well).

Regarding team composition we don't have a set in stone setup, but something like a guardian for support, a necromancer for condition control and debuffs, a warrior, an elementalist for combo fields and damage, and ranger for mobile support heavy DD.

#8 BloatedGuppy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostNettle, on 14 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Your crit is already so so high, I'd get rid of the crit chance runes.

I'm not a math guy...what's the general rule of thumb for the point at which crit % chance starts showing diminishing returns? 30%? 50%? 70%?

#9 Anelyn

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

I wouldn't mind to drop some crit chance (40%+ should be still good enough), but I don't want to lose on crit damage. Unless I missed something, there seems to be no way to decrease my critical chance but keep or push up my crit damage value. That's what I want, when I connect on a called target with another DPS, outside of them popping a major defensive ability (mainly immunity), they should have 0% chance of surviving because of the high spike damage, and general hefty steady damage via crits on all LB skills.

I believe I can combo very well with a warrior and elementalist, imagine I am immobilizing / stunning the called target followed by a knockdown from pet, while warrior unleashes 100B and I rapid fire. And the cooldowns on both abilities are rather short making them available multiple times during a short fight and capable of putting out great pressure while keeping the target in control.

#10 Nettle

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostAnelyn, on 14 August 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

snip

You sound like you've really thought things through about what you want to do, so I think really the best thing to do now is get some real experience using it to see how it performs and make changes from there.  You can kind of do this in hotjoins, but if its a tourney build you will really need to test it there to properly judge it.  I'd also keep an open mind and test several different builds before you settle on one.  There's fortunately many ways to play tourney ranger.


View PostBloatedGuppy, on 14 August 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I'm not a math guy...what's the general rule of thumb for the point at which crit % chance starts showing diminishing returns? 30%? 50%? 70%?

I don't think anyone's done that math yet. :P

It's more a feeling and preference of mine.  If you are past 50% crit rate without fury, which would benefit you more?  5% more crit (1 in 20 hits doing ~50% more dmg), or 50%+ of your hits doing lightning dmg, life steal, etc?

#11 StMarrow

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostBloatedGuppy, on 14 August 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I'm not a math guy...what's the general rule of thumb for the point at which crit % chance starts showing diminishing returns? 30%? 50%? 70%?

There is none. Crit chance is crit chance. Well, obviously anything higher than 100% would be superfluous, but only a few classes can stack it that high (Guardians' +15% comes to mind). Nor are there diminishing returns on stacking Precision, since it's a flat increase of crit chance.

#12 BloatedGuppy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostStMarrow, on 14 August 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

There is none. Crit chance is crit chance. Well, obviously anything higher than 100% would be superfluous, but only a few classes can stack it that high (Guardians' +15% comes to mind). Nor are there diminishing returns on stacking Precision, since it's a flat increase of crit chance.

Surely there's a point on the scale between 0-100 wherein you meet with diminishing returns? Again, I'm no math guy, but I've played enough MMOs to know there's always a point where diminishing returns kicks in.

#13 StMarrow

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:06 PM

View PostBloatedGuppy, on 14 August 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Surely there's a point on the scale between 0-100 wherein you meet with diminishing returns? Again, I'm no math guy, but I've played enough MMOs to know there's always a point where diminishing returns kicks in.

Not really. Diminishing returns come into play when your attribute scale logarithmically with the corresponding stat, and thus each attribute increase yields less and less stat increase. In GW2 they scale linearly.

Assuming a crit damage of 100%, 4% crit chance (base) will give a mean 4% increase in DPS. 100% crit chance will give a 100% increase in DPS.

Even if your aim is to only reliably trigger procs, then there's still really no down-side to having very high crit, as you'd want to trigger the proc as soon after the internal CD as possible.

#14 Izokka

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:55 AM

well im working on a crit ranger, and i think... when u past 50% chance without furry  its time for u to stack on crit damage (in my build i have  55% crit +86% crit damage with my main hand axe and 53% with my sword) and believe me with those 55%base crit %+20$ from furry (swapping weaps/warhorn/RAO) =75% crit + 150% crit damage +86 crit damage =236% crit damage...  power 1870 (2918 attack) believe me.. i crit a lot and my crits HURTS as hell!!! ( im a skirmishing build (24k HP 1238 Toughness)

#15 Sheky31

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:38 AM

Switch to Rune of Divinity.  You squeeze some stats points out and bump your stats up across the board a bit and your crit dmg is better.

Some runes don't seem to work properly now or I'd switch to 6 different runes. But that's for another thread.

#16 Anelyn

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:33 AM

http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1sIYQwGEA

This is how it looks with Rune of Divinity. 57% CC, 53% CD. 2920 attack (not sure if this is mid or top tier), 24k hp, 2190 armor. Using Knight's Amulet with Berserker's Jewel.

If I play around with other setups, I can increase my armor to ~2700, but in all honesty am not sure how much 500 more armor will make me from a squishy into a tank? (as many peeps said at 1k toughness you are squishy, I have 1.1k with my setup linked in this last post, can get to 1.7k with a different amulet, but 600 toughness would really make such a difference like you can live through 2-3 peeps bursting you when you're stunned for example?).

#17 Sheky31

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:17 AM

View PostAnelyn, on 15 August 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1sIYQwGEA

This is how it looks with Rune of Divinity. 57% CC, 53% CD. 2920 attack (not sure if this is mid or top tier), 24k hp, 2190 armor. Using Knight's Amulet with Berserker's Jewel.

If I play around with other setups, I can increase my armor to ~2700, but in all honesty am not sure how much 500 more armor will make me from a squishy into a tank? (as many peeps said at 1k toughness you are squishy, I have 1.1k with my setup linked in this last post, can get to 1.7k with a different amulet, but 600 toughness would really make such a difference like you can live through 2-3 peeps bursting you when you're stunned for example?).

I would max out the marksmanship over skirmish.  The best longbow traits are on that.  Eagle eye is a must, extra range and distance is no brainer, and you change your other tier according to the situation and playstyle; spotter or piercing arrow for wvw, sig of beastmaster so you can get invulnerability for spvp.  Or go piercing arrow and beastmaster for spvp if like to engage in those cluster * choke points.

Maxing out skirmish is nice, but it's something you can do without since Spotter is another way to get high crits and axe damage should be secondary if you're going for LB spike.  In the last stress test, I had 1940 precision using Spotter and I have only 4/5 skirmish traits but is like 20 points more precision than your current specs. I noticed I also had the best crit dmg using Spotter and there seems to be some kind of infinite lvl 2 might passive buff for Spotter....I'm really hoping that wasn't a bug cuz this class's LB needs more love.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about survivability unless you're doing spvp in which case, swap in beastmater and signet of stone. I ran that in spvp pretty extensively in BWE2/3 and did fine with your current lvl of armor.  No point doing things half assed if you want to use LB. Need to put that max distance and attack to good use.

#18 Anelyn

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:43 AM

http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1sIYQwGEA

New build. I switched to Sword / Horn since I prefer the mobility of sword for when I need to get away or am low on endurance and need to desperately dodge something.

Went 30 in MM since 33% crit dmg to axes doesn't apply anymore.

I don't like beastmaster nor the signets (except signet of renewal as a 2nd condition remover with the bonus of affecting allies as well). Yes they give you a an upper hand with stability and invuln, but the cooldowns are too long (even when traited), plus you lose the passive bonus while they are on CD which really makes them more unappealing for me.

I don't like spotter, is very minor compared to rest of traits, pretty much most of your crit chance / crit damage, power etc comes from gear / runes.

What I would love is if they would change Barrage to be a combo finisher (projectile or blast w/e) because is our only AoE with LB and is already pretty weak damage wise, being able to combo it would go a long way IMHO.

Am also disappointed that there are no traits or skills in LB that can give you cripple (or chill), heck even a 50% chance on critical hit to apply one of those effects would be nice, since all that max range does nothing if you have no control over your opponent (yes pets can supply that effect, but they are still AI controlled and their pathing is far from ideal).

#19 Skolops

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:04 AM

http://gw2skills.net...oyQlgKLVOqkUNKB

Here is the Longbow build I was putting together.  

I believe this may be some variation I was messing with when I last had the window open, as I recall having one more condition removal option and I'm not entirely comfortable with the build as is in that department.

#20 Sycthrex

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 11:20 AM

There is a point where too much Crit is pointless and not because of Diminishing Returns but because of Fury that can be gained.

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#21 Tevesh

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 02:38 PM

View PostBloatedGuppy, on 14 August 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Surely there's a point on the scale between 0-100 wherein you meet with diminishing returns? Again, I'm no math guy, but I've played enough MMOs to know there's always a point where diminishing returns kicks in.

0%. Actually, under any conditions (outside of something like +400% crit multiplier which is not realistic) with the current damage formulas power is much more efficient than crit. But since you can't put all of your points into power...get whatever you can and put on the berserker trinket.

Quote

Am also disappointed that there are no traits or skills in LB that can give you cripple (or chill), heck even a 50% chance on critical hit to apply one of those effects would be nice

Even as little as 1 second of chill with 50% proc chance on crit is ridiculously overpowered. More powerful than any condition effect currently in game. Maybe 20% chance of 1 sec, even that is too much. Dont expect anything like that to be ever added.

Also gw2 developers are more smart than that. Kiting is an engaging activity that takes skill and concentration, not like some other games where you can just auto attack and side strafe and crowd control procs do everything for you.

Quote

What I would love is if they would change Barrage to be a combo finisher (projectile or blast w/e) because is our only AoE with LB and is already pretty weak damage wise

Every longbow ability is aoe with Piercing Arrows, the way it's meant to be played. Barrage is more of an utility aoe designed to cripple targets to make it harder to move out of other aoes. Of course I'd also like to have a skill that would instagib everyone in 100 meter vicinty. The fact is, it's unrealistic to expect the damage on Barrage to ever be buffed, because it's fine the way it is.

#22 Skolops

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostTevesh, on 15 August 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

0%. Actually, under any conditions (outside of something like +400% crit multiplier which is not realistic) with the current damage formulas power is much more efficient than crit. But since you can't put all of your points into power...get whatever you can and put on the berserker trinket.



Even as little as 1 second of chill with 50% proc chance on crit is ridiculously overpowered. More powerful than any condition effect currently in game. Maybe 20% chance of 1 sec, even that is too much. Dont expect anything like that to be ever added.

Also gw2 developers are more smart than that. Kiting is an engaging activity that takes skill and concentration, not like some other games where you can just auto attack and side strafe and crowd control procs do everything for you.



Every longbow ability is aoe with Piercing Arrows, the way it's meant to be played. Barrage is more of an utility aoe designed to cripple targets to make it harder to move out of other aoes. Of course I'd also like to have a skill that would instagib everyone in 100 meter vicinty. The fact is, it's unrealistic to expect the damage on Barrage to ever be buffed, because it's fine the way it is.

First, there is and must be - by the very nature of mathematics - a sweet spot between power and crit.  One can sacrifice every bit of power in favor of crit and so, on a profession like the Warrior, even go so far as to reach a 100% chance of crit - or very close to it.  Yet in doing so, one sacrifices the ability for his attacks to ever, well, crit, and so make increase the damage from that base level.  This means that, while a 100% crit rating can ensure that each and every attack is as high as the base damage you'd get from stacking a whole bunch of power, you will never be able to produce hits of the same magnitude you can from critical hits while stacking some measure of power.

In other words, because each critical hit uses power as a multiplier, there is a balance to be found between critical chance and power to maximize DPS.  75% crit with 1500 power won't produce as much damage as 50% crit with 2000 power, because the critical hits with that extra power are just that much bigger.

Second, there already exists in the game a critical chill proc of more than a 20% chance - the Sigil of Superior Ice, which gives a 30% chance for a 2 second chill on critical hits.

Edited by Skolops, 15 August 2012 - 04:15 PM.


#23 Sheky31

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostTevesh, on 15 August 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Even as little as 1 second of chill with 50% proc chance on crit is ridiculously overpowered. More powerful than any condition effect currently in game. Maybe 20% chance of 1 sec, even that is too much. Dont expect anything like that to be ever added.

Also gw2 developers are more smart than that. Kiting is an engaging activity that takes skill and concentration, not like some other games where you can just auto attack and side strafe and crowd control procs do everything for you.


I disagree.  Cripple on skill 1 makes perfect sense for the class.  If you can only do max crit at max range then you have to have some means to enable the shooter to take subsequent shots.  You're basically only giving LB users only a moment in time to crit.  Too far or too close then you're out of the optimal killzone.  And even if you manage to hit, you might not get a critical hit.  Rifle has cripple shot with 10 sec refresh, I don't see why LB shouldn't have another cripple outside of barrage since the refresh is trash.

Edited by Sheky31, 15 August 2012 - 05:10 PM.


#24 Anelyn

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:12 PM

My forest for a chill! :D

Fine! Then change the projectile finisher for water combo fields from renew to apply chill, and I will be a happy ranger spamming rapid fire through my healing spring all day long baby and keeping entire zergs at bay, because we all know Legolas was OP as hell <.<

#25 user_875351

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 11:25 PM

Anelyn i tested your build (http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1sIYQwGEA) and i think that it is very good.

At moment, i will follow you in this forum ^^

#26 Izokka

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:08 AM

View PostAnelyn, on 15 August 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1sIYQwGEA

New build. I switched to Sword / Horn since I prefer the mobility of sword for when I need to get away or am low on endurance and need to desperately dodge something.

Went 30 in MM since 33% crit dmg to axes doesn't apply anymore.

I don't like beastmaster nor the signets (except signet of renewal as a 2nd condition remover with the bonus of affecting allies as well). Yes they give you a an upper hand with stability and invuln, but the cooldowns are too long (even when traited), plus you lose the passive bonus while they are on CD which really makes them more unappealing for me.

I don't like spotter, is very minor compared to rest of traits, pretty much most of your crit chance / crit damage, power etc comes from gear / runes.

What I would love is if they would change Barrage to be a combo finisher (projectile or blast w/e) because is our only AoE with LB and is already pretty weak damage wise, being able to combo it would go a long way IMHO.

Am also disappointed that there are no traits or skills in LB that can give you cripple (or chill), heck even a 50% chance on critical hit to apply one of those effects would be nice, since all that max range does nothing if you have no control over your opponent (yes pets can supply that effect, but they are still AI controlled and their pathing is far from ideal).

WTF!???

#27 xardas22

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:52 PM

I wonder if the rings and earrings are going to be included, it would benefit the ranger so hard, then he can also go non-stop critting.

#28 Anelyn

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:32 PM

View PostIzokka, on 16 August 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

WTF!???

For some reason I couldn't change the name of the thread, but as I mentioned several times I switched for a sword main hand instead of axe, and for this reason the 33% extra crit dmg on axes doesn't apply anymore to my build :)

#29 Bakelith

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:37 PM

It's 10% more damage on crit with an axe equiped in main hand now instead of 33%. I wonder if the buff applied twice when you had 2 axes °°.

View Postxardas22, on 16 August 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I wonder if the rings and earrings are going to be included, it would benefit the ranger so hard, then he can also go non-stop critting.
Not in sPvP as far as I heard, but should be in WvW.

Edited by Bakelith, 16 August 2012 - 04:38 PM.


#30 Izokka

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostAnelyn, on 16 August 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

For some reason I couldn't change the name of the thread, but as I mentioned several times I switched for a sword main hand instead of axe, and for this reason the 33% extra crit dmg on axes doesn't apply anymore to my build :)

well i ve seen that... they nerfed that trait from +33% to... +10% (MEANY FKERS)  im anoyed cause that skill was the backbone of my build ik that +10% crit damage is cool but not as a master trait when ive to invest on it 20 trait points -.-
i dont like bow  (any of both) so i think ill drop dagger off and ill use sword+Axe and Axe+Warhorn... well my build have a +23% crit damage  (and that sucks a lot QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ)




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