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Horses: Extinct?


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#1 Isarien

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:50 AM

Over the many, many months leading up to the eventual release of the game, mounts have been one feature constantly brought up as being added later. The default creature when introducing a hypothetical mount system, is, predictably, the horse. Even though the game doesn't need mounts, in my opinion, it got me thinking.

Where are all these hypothetical horses in Tyria? During my play through GW1, and my experience in GW2, I didn't see a single horse. We could probably stop here, and just conclude "There are no horses on Tyria." But, there are a few things that lead me to believe there were once horses on Tyria.

Firstly, there's the Iron Horse Mine in the Shiverpeaks. While this is, admittedly, very weak evidence, it does tell us one thing. The local denizens have some understanding of what "horse" is. The term "iron horse" of course refers to the industrial machinery that first replaced horses as modes of transport and beasts of burden. If the term exists in Tyria, surely horses must've been around, somewhere, at some point?

Then, we take a jaunt south to Cantha. See this excerpt from Loremaster Ermenred's An Empire Divided,

Quote

[Kaineng Tah's] death came from an unlikely event: while on an extended hunting expedition, his favorite horse improbably threw Kaineng Tah. It is doubtful that the faithful, well-trained beast would have done this out of belligerence, though Canthan history does classify the death as completely accidental. It seems more likely that one or more of the emperor's fellow huntsmen spooked the horse. Fragmentary records of an unexplained wound on the horse's rump and three more such wounds on Kaineng Tah himself would appear to support this interpretation.

His son, Yian Zho, was also said to be a skilled horseman.

Assuming these two references aren't just unfortunate oversights, this means at the very least that there were horses on Cantha as late as the 5th century BE.

So, the question is, where have they gone? Did they somehow go extinct? If they are extinct, what drove them to that point? If they're still around, but out of sight, why are they hidden? Speculate away!

#2 Rhodin

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:56 AM

I heard from another popular thread they were being implemented later as an offhand weapon (sorry i had to muhaha)

#3 Isarien

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:58 AM

View PostRhodin, on 14 August 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I heard from another popular thread they were being implemented later as an offhand weapon (sorry i had to muhaha)

Haha, yeah, some people are very persistent about having a horse. I suppose if they still did exist though, in the lore, there would be stables around as well, wouldn't there? Can't say I recall seeing any of those either, even empty ones.

#4 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:02 AM

I have one very simple answer for you.
Necrid Horseman
http://wiki.guildwar...Necrid_Horseman

I think the horses are all dead. They were probably only found in Orr.

There are actually a few mentions to horses (like the celestial horse). Most frequently in terms of design or infrastructure though (think the iron horse mines etc), so I'd think that they did exist in Tyria at some point and it's quite possible they can still be found somewhere.

#5 Alot

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:03 AM

This where all the horses went:


EDIT: RAAAAAAH! I WAS NINJA'd!

Edited by Alot, 14 August 2012 - 10:04 AM.


#6 Isarien

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:08 AM

That's a logical conclusion to what happened to the Orrian horses, but it doesn't quite answer what happened to the horses in Cantha. Perhaps the expansion of Kaineng City, after the Jade Wind, wiped them out, in a mix of loss of habitat and desperate refugees killing and eating horses just to survive?

#7 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostIsarien, on 14 August 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

That's a logical conclusion to what happened to the Orrian horses, but it doesn't quite answer what happened to the horses in Cantha. Perhaps the expansion of Kaineng City, after the Jade Wind, wiped them out, in a mix of loss of habitat and desperate refugees killing and eating horses just to survive?

If you look at the full world map (which is in the GW2 dat file, you can find the map on these forums, it's giant and it unfortunately can't be confirmed as canon) there are still parts of Cantha we have yet to see! So there may well be horses there.

As you say though, they could have very easily be pushed out of Kaineng by its expansion and they definitely wouldn't exist in the Jade Sea and considering Echovald is a forest it isn't really suited for horses either. That being said there are Kirin in Cantha which are very horse like (I mean apart from their horn and fabulous tails).

It's also possible that there is a close relationship between horses and centaurs. Considering we have Centaurs pretty much everywhere (Kryta, Maguuma, Crystal Desert, Elona) it's possible that horses existed in Cantha and Orr as sort of, prevolutions of centaurs xD?

#8 Isarien

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:00 AM

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 14 August 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's also possible that there is a close relationship between horses and centaurs. Considering we have Centaurs pretty much everywhere (Kryta, Maguuma, Crystal Desert, Elona) it's possible that horses existed in Cantha and Orr as sort of, prevolutions of centaurs xD?

Hm, horses evolving into centaurs? Or perhaps the horse and rider decided it would be mutually advantageous to simply become a single entity? (oh God, it's just crazy enough to be true, I tell ya) And thus, the first centaur came to be! xD

#9 Ashdown

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:07 AM

You should pose the question to Wooden Potatoes, maybe he'll feature it on one of his vids: http://www.youtube.c...tatoes/featured

He's like the community GW loremaster.

#10 Red J

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:57 AM

I think the answer is simple. They are still alive. There is just no reason to have them represented in game.

View PostAshdown, on 14 August 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

You should pose the question to Wooden Potatoes, maybe he'll feature it on one of his vids: http://www.youtube.c...tatoes/featured

He's like the community GW loremaster.

Guess from what GW2guru section he takes his knowledge?

#11 Xalted

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

Mad horse disease, I think. Due to the game simply being an ultra-augmented Guild Wars 1 engine I somewhat doubt they will implement mounts ingame.

#12 Ottoman

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:04 PM

Would be cool if they were added in later... Perhaps with release of a new area/zone and a chain of quests or something.

#13 Malaczion Sirocai

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:06 PM

View PostRhodin, on 14 August 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I heard from another popular thread they were being implemented later as an offhand weapon (sorry i had to muhaha)
I dont mean to bring up runescape, but im gonna bring up runescape.
For years people were clamoring for mounts (as if that was the one thing rs was missing lol) and jagex announced they had finally added horses to the game! but when you went to the merchant, it was toy rocking horses. I believe there was even an emote to play with them, were your toon would wave the toy around in the air and say things like "gideeup horsee!" and ""yeeehaww!". Many a 8 year old cried that day.

#14 ClintonD

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:37 PM

It's possible that the Canthan horse is actually a Kirin, and horse is just another name for it, like with the Celestial Horse. Perhaps the Kirin is where they got the name for the Iron Horse mine and the Orrian horses were a subspecies of Kirin.

#15 Daenerys

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:03 PM

I don't know if we actually have any lore that specifically says that horses are completely and totally extinct.

I've seen harnesses and stuff like that, and there's even a concept art somewhere that has horses, or at least something that looks just like them, in it. So unless the concept art isn't actually "from the time zone" that we'll be playing and is in fact really old... I think there are bound to be horses somewhere. It's just weird that we haven't seen them in Tyria yet and is slightly concerning. Not to mention we have cnetaurs, so I'd hope there are horses to compare them to somewhere.

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#16 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:01 PM

Read Edge of Destiny. In the scene where Logan, Caithe, and Rytlock are escaping from destroyers in the ruined dwarven city, there is an asura gate which flashes to a plain with horses in it.

They are not extinct. They just aren't in Tyria proper. People suspect they are only in Orr on Tyria, we'll see when we get there if there are Risen Horses. But I suspect they're from the human "landfall" place on the world, implied to be south of Cantha, and taken north with humanity all those years ago.

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#17 el hefe

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:04 PM

my guess is mounts will be Moa's,  if they ever get implemented.

#18 FireDancer

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostAshdown, on 14 August 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

You should pose the question to Wooden Potatoes, maybe he'll feature it on one of his vids: http://www.youtube.c...tatoes/featured

He's like the community GW loremaster.

While I am a huge fan of his for making lore very accessible to a lot of people I wouldn't go so far as sayin he's the lore "master" He's very entertaining and his theories are neat.
But There are several people on this forum I have seen in my short time of lurking that seem to have done more in-depth research, so yeah I would say it's better to get more solid answers here so you can see different perspectives.

As to the horse thing it would make more sense to me that they are just endangered and we haven't seen any yet in our travels. Maybe we will find one one day in one of those exotic animal circuses you see around !

Edited by FireDancer, 14 August 2012 - 08:13 PM.


#19 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:34 PM

View PostFireDancer, on 14 August 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

While I am a huge fan of his for making lore very accessible to a lot of people I wouldn't go so far as sayin he's the lore "master" He's very entertaining and his theories are neat.
But There are several people on this forum I have seen in my short time of lurking that seem to have done more in-depth research, so yeah I would say it's better to get more solid answers here so you can see different perspectives.

As to the horse thing it would make more sense to me that they are just endangered and we haven't seen any yet in our travels. Maybe we will find one one day in one of those exotic animal circuses you see around !

Yes, Konig is by far the more lore-mastery lore-master. I don't think there is anyone on these forums who has more knowledge and understanding of GW lore.
I do however love WoodenPotatoes, if not just for his british accent -swoons-

-edit- (And oh look, up there! ^^^^. Konig posted the comment about horses in the book. I rest my case!) -edit-

Thats really interesting about the mention of horses in the book. My only gripe with that is the books tend to have gotten things a little bit wrong on occasion for me. Not in a 'OMG that's wrong!' way, just in the way that sometimes I didn't truly feel as if what I was reading fit into the GW universe and it felt as if the stories hadn't been mediated enough to check for world relevance.

Edited by Flaming_Foxx, 14 August 2012 - 08:35 PM.


#20 Red J

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:04 PM

It's obvious that the world we see in game does not represent the actual world of Tyria completely. Have you ever wondered, for example, where do people of Tyria do... their needs? We don't see anything that resembles toilets in game, but surely they are present in the "real" Tyria, considering the clean state of their streets (well, IIRC, there are sewers under Divinity's Reach)

The same applies for horses.

Edited by Red J, 14 August 2012 - 09:09 PM.


#21 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostAshdown, on 14 August 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

You should pose the question to Wooden Potatoes, maybe he'll feature it on one of his vids: http://www.youtube.c...tatoes/featured

He's like the community GW loremaster.

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 14 August 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Yes, Konig is by far the more lore-mastery lore-master. I don't think there is anyone on these forums who has more knowledge and understanding of GW lore.
I do however love WoodenPotatoes, if not just for his british accent -swoons-
I wouldn't call anyone a loremaster. People call me one, but I would say no.

WoodenPotatoes is most certainly not a loremaster, though, as he's constantly wrong about little facts and I've talked to him personally about his procedure in making videos, even offered my help in editing them to keep them fact-correct because while he openly admits that he makes video as a "quick reference" or "introduction to lore" for people, I know people will take things he says more seriously... he uses other people's research and documentation in his videos. He is merely re-stating what others say, and present his view on them. He's just like any news reporter - not an expert in what's being talking about, but simply restating what "experts" say (I use quotes because no one but Jeff and Ree are truly experts in GW lore).

Quote

Thats really interesting about the mention of horses in the book. My only gripe with that is the books tend to have gotten things a little bit wrong on occasion for me. Not in a 'OMG that's wrong!' way, just in the way that sometimes I didn't truly feel as if what I was reading fit into the GW universe and it felt as if the stories hadn't been mediated enough to check for world relevance.
Some parts of Edge of Destiny I would agree with, though I would disagree with Ghosts of Ascalon. It should also be noted that the developers have altered the game since the books in order to keep them in sync with each other.

View PostRed J, on 14 August 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

It's obvious that the world we see in game does not represent the actual world of Tyria completely. Have you ever wondered, for example, where do people of Tyria do their needs? We don't see anything that resembles toilets in game, but surely they are present in the "real" Tyria, considering the clean state of their streets (well, IIRC, there are sewers under Divinity's Reach)

The same applies for horses.
There are few private houses we can enter in the game. But there are sewers in I think every major city... except Hoelbrak and the Grove. Even Ebonhawke has sewers (in Ghosts of Ascalon), which does indeed include human excrement.

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#22 Sheepski

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostRhodin, on 14 August 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I heard from another popular thread they were being implemented later as an offhand weapon (sorry i had to muhaha)

I was going to post the same thing :D

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#23 Red J

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 14 August 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

There are few private houses we can enter in the game. But there are sewers in I think every major city... except Hoelbrak and the Grove. Even Ebonhawke has sewers (in Ghosts of Ascalon), which does indeed include human excrement.

Really? I didn't do much in depth exploring during BWEs and tests. Though I remember the scene with sewers in GoA.

The point is, just because we don't see them in game does not mean they are not there.

...Although humans of tyria seem to be fast runners. After all, they could outrun a centaur!

Edited by Red J, 14 August 2012 - 09:28 PM.


#24 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:29 PM

We can go inside the sewers of Lion's Arch. And there are multiple sewer grates in Divinity's Reach - one of which is clickable and describes a sound coming from underground indicating that perhaps... those rumors of drakes in the sewers is true? And in DR, the only buildings we enter are mostly inns and taverns, with a few exceptions (mostly in Salma District).

Rata Sum also has "waterfalls" at the bottom of the cube. I somehow doubt they'd be getting rid of fresh clean water.

Black Citadel I think I saw sewer grates too, near the bottom, but not sure on them.

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#25 ClintonD

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:38 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 14 August 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Read Edge of Destiny. In the scene where Logan, Caithe, and Rytlock are escaping from destroyers in the ruined dwarven city, there is an asura gate which flashes to a plain with horses in it.

They are not extinct. They just aren't in Tyria proper. People suspect they are only in Orr on Tyria, we'll see when we get there if there are Risen Horses. But I suspect they're from the human "landfall" place on the world, implied to be south of Cantha, and taken north with humanity all those years ago.

This seems to be the best possible explanation. Horses are just exotic to the main continent of Tyria, and richer, more influential nations like Orr and Cantha may have had access to them, possibly due to trade with faraway lands. Even then, horses were probably a rarity, a pet for the elite. Probably explains why relatively backwater nations like Kryta, Ascalon and the nations of Elona have no horses.

#26 Kasern

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:02 AM

I hear the Charr find horses particularly delicious. The obvious answer is that they were all eaten.

#27 Brynjar

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:39 PM

It's not like most of the races would have much use for them anyway. Charr would use them for food before using them as transportation, and horses are inferior to other Tyrian beasts of burden. Asura would use golems instead, and Norn would never be able to ride them because of sheer body weight. Only humans and sylvari would be practical, and that assumes the horse wouldn't try to eat the sylvari's hand thinking it's a huge carrot.

#28 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:36 PM

View PostBrynjar, on 15 August 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

It's not like most of the races would have much use for them anyway. Charr would use them for food before using them as transportation, and horses are inferior to other Tyrian beasts of burden. Asura would use golems instead, and Norn would never be able to ride them because of sheer body weight. Only humans and sylvari would be practical, and that assumes the horse wouldn't try to eat the sylvari's hand thinking it's a huge carrot.

You have to remember though that Sylvari and Asura are relatively new to the surface of Tyria. Tyria is old, horses would also be old (at least as old as humans, norn, charr the forgotten etc.
Disregard Norn because they live in snowy mountains, not going to find horses there. Sylvari did not exist. Asura were underground

The only races that need be concerned with the legitimacy of horses are humans and Charr.
I definitely see advantages for humans with having horses. They don't have any other animals that can be used for fast travelling to my knowledge and as far as I've seen Dolyaks are the only animals used for moving goods.

-I'm disregarding the Drake that one of the stone summit rides in GW1 because thats a crazy dwarf... -

Edited by Flaming_Foxx, 15 August 2012 - 09:37 PM.


#29 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:00 PM

I love how people only denote the playable races when going on about inter-racial economy, usefulness, resources, and needs. It's like the other ten dozen races don't even exist.

What mountable (or mounted) animals exist in Tyria, for a grown individual? Dolyaks, snow beasts, and drakes (more than one individual had tamed and mounted one - see EN). Dolyaks are sturdy but slow. Snow beasts are large and strong but not very fast. Drakes are also slow but powerful.

Horses would be a creature for covering distances.

And only humans and sylvari? Grawl, harpies, before becoming stoned dwarves too. Just in continental Tyria. Besides, humans are a vastly widespread race, even in GW2's time. They would have need for horses and would spread them across the world with their own expansions.

And yes, charr can mount them, and would have the need of them for speed (though with their charrmobiles, that's less likely to be needed during GW2, but in their history...) and you'd be surprised how much weight a horse can carry. Probably not a large norn in full heavy plate armor gear, but a less armored norn should be easily doable. Size is another issue altogether though.

And if you're going to argue moas are fast... I don't think they will be able to hold the weight of a grown human.

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#30 Akela Rumi

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 10:05 PM

Yes there are horse in Tyria, but they all went in hiding cause they are afraid of being used as mounts.




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