87 replies to this topic

[ZCKS]

As far as warrior condition damage builds go I would have to suggest http://gw2skills.net...nogxUkoIrPOYk A

You can do what you wish with the last 30 trait points , though i should note that to optomise the bleeds you either want at least 10 points in  strength or the sigil of superior agony to give you +100% bleed duration.

This will allow your sword's burst attack "Flury" to do 29616 damage over 4 seconds which is basically a guaranteed kill unless your target has condition removal applied ASAP.

The only hing really stopping this build from becoming Op is the fact that it relies an extreme amount on bleeds for damage which can be countered by condition removal.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

With a 2s ICD you won't get more than two during flurry. It takes an average of 2 hits to proc it with a 90% crit rate. So if you proc it at 0-.5 seconds into the flurry it will won't be able to proc again until 2-2.5 in effectively putting the next proc past the end of flurries duration. With that change just having a 60% crit rate is enough to get those 2 procs into a 4s flurry. If you dropped the crit down to that you'd average 2-3 precision strikes instead of 3-4 assuming it does not have an ICD as well.

[Ayestes]

ZCKS, on 15 August 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

As far as warrior condition damage builds go I would have to suggest http://gw2skills.net...nogxUkoIrPOYk A

You can do what you wish with the last 30 trait points , though i should note that to optomise the bleeds you either want at least 10 points in  strength or the sigil of superior agony to give you +100% bleed duration.

This will allow your sword's burst attack "Flury" to do 29616 damage over 4 seconds which is basically a guaranteed kill unless your target has condition removal applied ASAP.

The only hing really stopping this build from becoming Op is the fact that it relies an extreme amount on bleeds for damage which can be countered by condition removal.

How are you getting almost 30,000 damage within 4 seconds of Flurry bleeds?  Bleed damage alone would be capped at 10,000 over this duration if it were even possible to reach 25 stacks.  Given 120 bleed damage and +100% bleed duration, you should only be doing about 14,000 damage and that would be over a 10 second duration from the end of the Flurry channel.  

I tried out the +100% bleed duration for a while in my previous builds.  It's a good way to go, but you do have to factor in condition removal as something that you are going to meet.  If they lack the condition removal anyway the fight was pretty much trivial for you to win in the first place, no need to increase the damage against them.  

Zerikin Loukbel, on 15 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

With a 2s ICD you won't get more than two during flurry. It takes an average of 2 hits to proc it with a 90% crit rate. So if you proc it at 0-.5 seconds into the flurry it will won't be able to proc again until 2-2.5 in effectively putting the next proc past the end of flurries duration. With that change just having a 60% crit rate is enough to get those 2 procs into a 4s flurry. If you dropped the crit down to that you'd average 2-3 precision strikes instead of 3-4 assuming it does not have an ICD as well.

That's true, anything with a 2s ICD shouldn't proc more then twice during a Flurry.  I need to redo my math anyway, I've been calculating the 5s base bleeds with a 7s duration instead of 8s.  Assuming 116 bleed damage at +75% you get about 1,000 direct damage, 1,000 Blood Sigil damage, 4,200 Flurry Bleed damage, 1,800 Earth Sigil damage, and 3,200 Precise Strikes damage still making it over 11k Damage Dealt on average.  Given, if we lacked the ICD we'd have way more damage (about 5,000 more), it is still a lot of damage and is far more then Eviscerate or Kill Shot.   It also comes with Immobilize, which to me is incredible.  Plus, Flurry is probably the most efficient lower level adrenaline skill we have as well, since a Level 1 variation is more then 70% as good as the Level 3 variation.

Edited by Ayestes, 15 August 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Zogoth]

You can use Air instead. To give Flurry that extra burst.

However, Earth still works as a means to get a lot of extra bleeds when spaming both sword1 and rifle1.

[Ayestes]

Air has an extremely high internal cooldown, and scales mostly with Power doesn't it?  I can't see it being that effective in a condition focused build.  Then again, it's probably more damage then Blood would be over the same duration given 2 Blood procs compared to 1 Air proc.  Perhaps I'm wrong here.  Earth though, should be superior amounts of damage.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

Something else to keep in mind that I have not seen mentioned yet, assuming no rounding on condition duration, is that if you go for the +100% bleeds you could also toss in +15% burning and have 3s burns instead of 2s on the bow.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

Got some time to test after all. Tested rounding with long bow burning. No rounding happened. Tried to use the runes to get 50% burning but they were bugged and did not add any duration to burning or bleeding.

[Primum_Agmen]

I messed around with your build for about a half hour today Ayestes. Did you notice that Sigil of Earth now has a 5s ICD, and Sigil of Blood has a 2s ICD? That's a pretty significant nerf to crit-based condition damage builds.

[Giac]

Ayestes, on 15 August 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Air has an extremely high internal cooldown, and scales mostly with Power doesn't it?  

Yes, Air scales only with Power.

[Ayestes]

Primum_Agmen, on 16 August 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I messed around with your build for about a half hour today Ayestes. Did you notice that Sigil of Earth now has a 5s ICD, and Sigil of Blood has a 2s ICD? That's a pretty significant nerf to crit-based condition damage builds.

As far as I could tell, Sigil of Earth still only had a 2s ICD and the same with Blood.  The problem was they appeared to be triggering each other's cooldown too, if true I'll have to drop Blood and pick up something else such as 5% more damage or crit.   It definitely screws over Doom being added into this build though, as whenever Earth was on cooldown it would block the swap proc.  

I'm going to get some extra footage up sometime soon, just been busy after that last Stress Test.  Half of it ended up corrupted, so hopefully there is enough to get something decent out.

Edited by Ayestes, 17 August 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Swiftly]

Just did a small variation of your build Ayestes, using dual sword and rifle, it worked really well.  I am surprised no one talks more about Impale, it seemed to do a ton of damage this last stress test.  I think I have some footage of it doing a rather large crit but can't recall exactly how large.

Edited by Swiftly, 17 August 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

If the sigils stay as is (hopefully putting each other on cool down is a bug, seems kinda silly) then going for +100% bleed using a 10% bleed sigil seems like a good plan. You could either get +15% bleeding or put another 5 pts in strength and get a general +10% condition duration and have the potential for +50% burning on the bow.

[Ayestes]

With the recent nerfs to Earth Sigil in general, it's possible the Offhand Sword could be worth it as now the damage isn't wasted as much.  I still like Shield Bash and Block though.  A side advantage of the Offhand Sword that most people don't mention either is the increased weapon strength it has over the Shield.

Edited by Ayestes, 17 August 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Swiftly]

I do have a quick question for anyone using 1handed sword.  Do you all feel like Hamstring misses alot?  I am either really bad at applying it or it seems like it misses a ton...

[Teilion]

The swing on hamstring seems to be a little slower than the chain and also has a slightly different swing. I've had times when it whiffs when people run past me because of that. If you compensate for the activation time and the arc then it's way easier to space properly

Offhand sword may be more viable due to the sigil nerf but shield utilities are too good to pass up. Though to be fair,  offhandsword  doesn't need any trait specs to really be effective while you arguably have to put more into specs to get the most out of the shield

Edited by Teilion, 17 August 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[Ayestes]

Footage from the Aug 15th Stress Test.  

[Giac]

Ayestes, on 17 August 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

A side advantage of the Offhand Sword that most people don't mention either is the increased weapon strength it has over the Shield.

I am not entirely positive, but I believe that the weapon damage is only applied for the respective skills used with the hand. As in, offhand sword damage would be used in the damage calculation for skill #4 and #5 only.

Edited by Giac, 17 August 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[Ayestes]

Giac, on 17 August 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

...

That would be interesting, I had always assumed it was averaged between the weapons.  I guess it's just that though, an assumption.  I'm rather curious how it fully works now.

Oh yeah, Giac, did you test the damage formula last stress test?

Edited by Ayestes, 17 August 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Giac]

Ayestes, on 17 August 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Oh yeah, Giac, did you test the damage formula last stress test?

Sadly we didn't have the chance to test much this time around, as we weren't able to find a damn server on which to test in peace. Every time we'd find one, there was somebody who thought he had to interfere. This went on for about two hours, at which point we decided to scrap the rest for that day and PvPed some. It's still coming up though.

Edited by Giac, 17 August 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

Ayestes, on 17 August 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

That would be interesting, I had always assumed it was averaged between the weapons.  I guess it's just that though, an assumption.  I'm rather curious how it fully works now.

Oh yeah, Giac, did you test the damage formula last stress test?

Giant spread sheet I made will all the warrior values. Used the ones from gw2db.com

Skill calc

Edit: Added the sheet I did with your base build. Make a copy and play with the values.

Edited by Zerikin Loukbel, 17 August 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[Zinn]

Zerikin Loukbel, on 17 August 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Giant spread sheet I made will all the warrior values. Used the ones from gw2db.com

Skill calc

Edit: Added the sheet I did with your base build. Make a copy and play with the values.

That is pretty cool.

[Twigfried]

Zerikin Loukbel, on 17 August 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Giant spread sheet I made will all the warrior values. Used the ones from gw2db.com

Skill calc

Edit: Added the sheet I did with your base build. Make a copy and play with the values.

Nice Zerik - thanks for sharing this

[frettr00]

Love this build, adding it to my list..

[GenericWarrior]

This build is crap guys, can't you see it? 18k HP and only 1 skill to remove conditions means any other condition dealing build with ranged options (thief, engineer, necro) will destroy you, also direct damage is way too low with 1300 power, meaning even with 50% crit chance you will lose to people running with at least 3-4 condition removals.

[Mhell]

GenericWarrior, on 18 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

This build is crap guys, can't you see it? 18k HP and only 1 skill to remove conditions means any other condition dealing build with ranged options (thief, engineer, necro) will destroy you, also direct damage is way too low with 1300 power, meaning even with 50% crit chance you will lose to people running with at least 3-4 condition removals.

I wouldn't exactly call it crap. But indeed, for example a mesmer running Arcane Thievery would give this build probably a really bad time. It maybe is a bit of a one-trick pony. But as long as your opponent doesn't realize the bleeds or can't remove them, you should be golden.

[Ayestes]

GenericWarrior, on 18 August 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

This build is crap guys, can't you see it? 18k HP and only 1 skill to remove conditions means any other condition dealing build with ranged options (thief, engineer, necro) will destroy you, also direct damage is way too low with 1300 power, meaning even with 50% crit chance you will lose to people running with at least 3-4 condition removals.

Against most other condition damage builds, you simply kill them faster then they kill you.  A lot of the time you can simply out control them.  However, the build is generally designed defensively against direct damage and not condition damage.  If you want more condition removal, it's fairly trivial to add in the Signet of Stamina somewhere in the utility slots, possibly over Balanced stance.   Mending with Restorative Strength though is a powerful piece of condition removal that should not be underestimated.  

People running condition removal will cleanse your bleeds away, of course.  However you have to keep in mind that you reapply bleeds extremely rapidly and this build is designed to beat targets with condition removal in mind.  Interrupts can often force damage into the bleeds, as well as Fear Me! giving you nearly 4 seconds of bleed damage after a Flurry.  I've played against Support Staff Elementalists, Mantra Mesmers, and Shout Warriors plenty of times.  You still do plenty of damage, and it can be further enhanced with proper use of control.  Distracting Strikes is also difficult to get rid of with the Bleeds covering it, so it will often stick around unless there are full condition wipes.  

You also appear to underestimate the direct damage.  The Sword chain can often do over 3k damage and Volley can often go over 4k damage.  This is rather significant for a build that doesn't inherently focus on direct damage in the first place.  Flurry itself can often be considered much more direct then the auto-attack chains, due to the majority of the damage being done in under 3 to 4 seconds.  

In the end though, this spec is designed defensively against direct damage and deals primarily condition damage.  There are changes you can make to it that can alter this, such as moving into Tactics, taking Lyssa Runes, or picking up the Signet of Stamina.  I would have to say though, that calling a build "crap" because it has weaknesses is a little silly.  Any build is going to have weaknesses, or else it would simply be overpowered.  No build can beat every other build, especially if you find one tailored to beat yours.  The key is minimizing those weaknesses with backup plans, which this one in my opinion has.

[Twigfried]

Ayestes, on 17 August 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

The problem was they appeared to be triggering each other's cooldown too, if true I'll have to drop Blood and pick up something else such as 5% more damage or crit.   It definitely screws over Doom being added into this build though, as whenever Earth was on cooldown it would block the swap proc.  

Hi Ayestes,

Just to be clear, you are saying that the ICD's from the crit sigils affect the swap sigils, i.e. if you proc a blood and then swap before the ICD is done, doom will not fire?

That is terrible!

How would this work in conjunction with Fast Hands and multiple swap sigils?

Edited by Twigfried, 18 August 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Ayestes]

Right now it appears that any ICD from another sigil prevents any other sigil with an ICD from working while it's on it's own ICD.   In general, it plays havoc with double sigil combinations and with Fast Hands can really create cooldown issues.  Whether that is accurate or not I'm not sure, and whether or not it stays that way is up in the air.

Edited by Ayestes, 19 August 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[selfconfessedcynic]

Twigfried, on 18 August 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

i.e. if you proc a blood and then swap before the ICD is done, doom will not fire?

Has it been established whether Sigil of Blood has an ICD now or not? It didn't seem to two stress tests ago.

[Zinn]

Ayestes, on 19 August 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Right now it appears that any ICD from another sigil prevents any other sigil with an ICD from working while it's on it's own ICD.   In general, it plays havoc with double sigil combinations and with Fast Hands can really create cooldown issues.  Whether that is accurate or not I'm not sure, and whether or not it stays that way is up in the air.

I have a friend that tested it and stated they did at least start the cooldown of all sigils.  What I'm curious is if all sigils are disabled for the duration of the sigil used or by there own sigil?

I think it will be easy to test next time we can get in game.  Just use sigil of rage and then see if you can get earth to proc during that 45 seconds.