132 replies to this topic

[Geirstadalv]

I have been playing sPvP for almost the whole duration of all the BWEs and stress tests. This stress test contained a lot of changes to some of the classes it seems and condition damage seemed to be stronger than ever. Today I was playing a warrior with a shout build, that means 4 different condition removals and still I got owned pretty hard by for instance Engineers and Necros. It can't be right that the condition damage is so strong in this game, it's not balanced at all in its current state. It shouldn't be so easy to reapply the conditions.

Something is wrong when you die due to 20k worth of bleeds and still you have removed the conditions 4 times before that...

Or is it just me?

Edited by Geirstadalv, 15 August 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[golden_radish]

bleeds are currently the only condition that stacks in effect, rather than duration.  so of course, everyone is going to switch to bleed builds.  FOTM FTW!

[Cracken]

I agree. Conditions are the FotM it seems. I was almost dueling with a elementalist all the time (because we were always alone at one of the points) and I would kill him first always but then I'd die from his conditions. Let's say that my build is not based on removing conditions, and I'm a Thief so, but anyway, on the skill charts when you die, there was always "Bleeding" or "Burning" at the top, regardless of who killed you.

[diggdugg]

well in spvp i imagine they are building striaght con damage  -- its the strongest it can be , so they prolly have nothing in health and tough -- maybe be more offensive -- especially on warrior -- and try to react less to what they are doing, and kill them before they can bleed you down

[Cracken]

diggdugg, on 15 August 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

well in spvp i imagine they are building striaght con damage  -- its the strongest it can be , so they prolly have nothing in health and tough -- maybe be more offensive -- especially on warrior -- and try to react less to what they are doing, and kill them before they can bleed you down

That's exactly what they are, glass cannons, you almost always kill them first, but then you die because of the conditions and they may end up winning the fight because of the downed state.

[Nicator]

Cracken, on 15 August 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

That's exactly what they are, glass cannons, you almost always kill them first, but then you die because of the conditions and they may end up winning the fight because of the downed state.

Well, you can't really expect to PvP with zero condition protection.

[Timeslice]

The problem with fighting condition builds is that you can't really outskill them by either kiting or dodging key spells. Classes such as Engineers and Necros put up their conditions with autoattack, for the most part. What are you going to do, dodge every auto-attack?

It's also the main reason I don't like playing pistol on my engineer; it's just auto-attacking. Time spent not auto-attacking is time pretty much wasted.

Maybe if they got rid of auto-attack conditions and instead made 'burst conditions' spells where if you land it it creates a 9 stack of bleed or something. That way you can still outplay your opponent by avoiding the big spells. I dunno, playing against condition builds is just so frustrating.

[Action Bastard]

Only times I died on my warrior is due to 20k damage from bleeds, which I constantly dropped with my 4 remove condition skills.  Didn't matter, its too easy to apply bleed stacks.

[Nicator]

Action Bastard, on 15 August 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Only times I died on my warrior is due to 20k damage from bleeds, which I constantly dropped with my 4 remove condition skills.  Didn't matter, its too easy to apply bleed stacks.

Um, yeah, warriors suck at condition removal. That's probably the only thing they suck at.

[Geirstadalv]

Nicator, on 15 August 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Um, yeah, warriors suck at condition removal. That's probably the only thing they suck at.

Hmm with shouts you have 4 condition removals. That's not bad at all..

[Nicator]

Geirstadalv, on 15 August 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Hmm with shouts you have 4 condition removals. That's not bad at all..

That's quite poor actually, since you only remove a single condition per use.

[Action Bastard]

Geirstadalv, on 15 August 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Hmm with shouts you have 4 condition removals. That's not bad at all..

That's what I ran, it didn't matter because as soon as I dropped a stack of 20 bleeds, I would get another stack of 20 in a matter of seconds.

[Action Bastard]

Nicator, on 15 August 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

That's quite poor actually, since you only remove a single condition per use.

Thats not true, shake it off removes 2

[Geirstadalv]

Yeah and I had shake it off traited to kick in if I got more than 2 conditions on me as well. So that means I had 5 condition removals! Geez..

[Cracken]

Nicator, on 15 August 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Well, you can't really expect to PvP with zero condition protection.

One thing is zero condition protection and another a build based on removing conditions. I have ways to remove conditions, but not 4 like OP said.

Timeslice, on 15 August 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

The problem with fighting condition builds is that you can't really outskill them by either kiting or dodging key spells. Classes such as Engineers and Necros put up their conditions with autoattack, for the most part. What are you going to do, dodge every auto-attack?

It's also the main reason I don't like playing pistol on my engineer; it's just auto-attacking. Time spent not auto-attacking is time pretty much wasted.

Maybe if they got rid of auto-attack conditions and instead made 'burst conditions' spells where if you land it it creates a 9 stack of bleed or something. That way you can still outplay your opponent by avoiding the big spells. I dunno, playing against condition builds is just so frustrating.

Exactly my thoughts. It'd be great if every attack could be countered, or even prevent it, but against conditions you can't really do that much, only removing them. It'd be better if the combat was more skill based and less "I SPAM CONDITIONS AND WIN". That's not skillful at all.

Edited by Cracken, 15 August 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[Nicator]

Cracken, on 15 August 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

One thing is zero condition protection and another a build based on removing conditions. I have ways to remove conditions, but not 4 like OP said.

Again, that condition removal is rather crappy. Most classes have multiple means of removing all conditions at once. Removing a single or two conditions at one time is not a good way of combating bleeding stacks given that in any serious moment you are likely to have 3+ conditions on yourself.

[Uproar]

Cracken, on 15 August 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

That's exactly what they are, glass cannons, you almost always kill them first, but then you die because of the conditions and they may end up winning the fight because of the downed state.

If thats the case then maybe you should save at least one of your condition removals toward the end of the fight so the intensity isnt as strong? Im not saying conditions are good to invest in but part of being a condition removal is using them at the right time and not at the first second you see one condition

Also ppl that are running those condition removals are eventually going to run into someone who can turn those into boons or even better turn them back on the opponent.... conditions have there downsides just need to remember this game isnt a 1v1 type game in a tournament the results should be different

Edited by Uproar, 16 August 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[Itharius]

Action Bastard, on 15 August 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

That's what I ran, it didn't matter because as soon as I dropped a stack of 20 bleeds, I would get another stack of 20 in a matter of seconds.

Should have ran with a Guardian teammate...

[Knuckledust13]

power is too op, I got a 17k hit to the face and couldn't even remove it

[Tevesh]

Condition removal is too op, but it will take people a while to figure it out.
Bringing one condition management support on your team > like 3 or 4 enemy players throwing them on you.

[Cracken]

The thing is, if I go for condition removal as a thief, I don't do any damage. I use my heal to remove them. But still, they're reapplied almost instantly.

[Action Bastard]

Tevesh, on 16 August 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Condition removal is too op, but it will take people a while to figure it out.
Bringing one condition management support on your team > like 3 or 4 enemy players throwing them on you.

How does one condition management skill stop 3-4 people?  It drops the stacks but then it goes on CD and they reapply, GG.

[Zinn]

I didn't have any issues with condition damage taken.  It was easy to keep track of and avoid the major bursts of applications.

[Abaregi]

What do you remove power crits with?

[Epic_Bear_Guy]

Burn engineers, and venom thieves I'm guessing TC?

[Epic_Bear_Guy]

Cracken, on 15 August 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

That's exactly what they are, glass cannons, you almost always kill them first, but then you die because of the conditions and they may end up winning the fight because of the downed state.

Wrong, rabid amulet gives great toughness and condition damage. They need to change that amulet.

[DrTenma0]

Epic_Bear_Guy, on 16 August 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

Wrong, rabid amulet gives great toughness and condition damage. They need to change that amulet.

This is a big issue.

[tbox]

Geirstadalv, on 15 August 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

I have been playing sPvP for almost the whole duration of all the BWEs and stress tests. This stress test contained a lot of changes to some of the classes it seems and condition damage seemed to be stronger than ever. Today I was playing a warrior with a shout build, that means 4 different condition removals and still I got owned pretty hard by for instance Engineers and Necros. It can't be right that the condition damage is so strong in this game, it's not balanced at all in its current state. It shouldn't be so easy to reapply the conditions.

Something is wrong when you die due to 20k worth of bleeds and still you have removed the conditions 4 times before that...

Or is it just me?

Condition damage was nerfed across the board today.

[flint11]

They nerfed bleed stacking from auto-attacks across most classes including Engineer and Necromancers. Compared to other classes, Warriors are okay but not great at dealing with conditions, what they do have is a big HP Pool.

You have to remember that unlike direct damage, bleeds actually need to build up to a respectable stack to get some serious pressure going. There's a threshold that if you don't meet, you'll loose the damage race. This ramp up time plus interference from condition removals is the only way to stop conditions. Some classes are just better suited at dealing with conditions than others, it's definitely worth having one of your own running around with you.

Epic_Bear_Guy, on 16 August 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

Wrong, rabid amulet gives great toughness and condition damage. They need to change that amulet.

Why do they need to change that? Are direct damage builds the only ones allowed to stack toughness? Maybe instead of always running with Berserker's, you can look into Carrion, Soldier, or Valkyrie amulets, if you're running Berserker's you're setting up yourself to be squishy.

[Epic_Bear_Guy]

flint11, on 16 August 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

They nerfed bleed stacking from auto-attacks across most classes including Engineer and Necromancers. Compared to other classes, Warriors are okay but not great at dealing with conditions, what they do have is a big HP Pool.

You have to remember that unlike direct damage, bleeds actually need to build up to a respectable stack to get some serious pressure going. There's a threshold that if you don't meet, you'll loose the damage race. This ramp up time plus interference from condition removals is the only way to stop conditions. Some classes are just better suited at dealing with conditions than others, it's definitely worth having one of your own running around with you.



Why do they need to change that? Are direct damage builds the only ones allowed to stack toughness? Maybe instead of always running with Berserker's, you can look into Carrion, Soldier, or Valkyrie amulets, if you're running Berserker's you're setting up yourself to be squishy.

Whether they change it or not doesn't matter to me. I have no trouble with condition builds on my Mesmer. I'm just going off of what I've played. Condition builds are shit easy to destroy with. My venom thief was whrecking face all day today, as well as my bleed warrior. I just find it funny that condition damage is almost always at the top of my death log in group fights.