Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * - - - 16 votes

Condition damage is way to strong

condition damage

  • Please log in to reply
132 replies to this topic

#121 Zauric

Zauric

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 39 posts
  • Guild Tag:[SF]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:57 PM

Condition builds are pretty balanced as of now, I've spent the last several stress tests as various warrior builds, both with and without shouts, and haven't had to much of an issue with any condition builds unless they just outplayed me.

#122 Shadow Ritualist

Shadow Ritualist

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 701 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:19 PM

What I don't understand is:
Can't dodge condition builds cause they apply them on autoattacks
Somehow can dodge power builds that do 2k damage on autoattacks


Especially because it's not like their autoattacks with condition damage are different than power autoattacks. You can dodge a condition burst (eg rapid fire sharpening stone sigil of earth) just as easily as a power burst.

Edited by Shadow Ritualist, 18 August 2012 - 07:21 PM.


#123 Geirstadalv

Geirstadalv

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 365 posts
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:52 AM

View Postarexxis, on 18 August 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

The change was that you dont need spefific classes to fulfill typical mmo roles (healer, tank, dps....). For example: Nearly everyone can get a really tanky spec with long survivability. You dont need one player to be a healer / buffer for your group to succeed. If you need more dps in your group just respec.... and so on
...

Now you need to bring condition removal, damage and support instead. What has changed again?

#124 Phys

Phys

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1739 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

View PostShadow Ritualist, on 18 August 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

What I don't understand is:
Can't dodge condition builds cause they apply them on autoattacks
Somehow can dodge power builds that do 2k damage on autoattacks


Especially because it's not like their autoattacks with condition damage are different than power autoattacks. You can dodge a condition burst (eg rapid fire sharpening stone sigil of earth) just as easily as a power burst.

ranged attacks are generally tuned to be weak from ranged distances. You also have many more sources of damage mitigation for direct attacks

toughness
blind
protection
various damage reduction traits/skills dolyak signet
weakness

now add in defense from melee
immobilize
cripple
just plain distance

It makes sense that melee direct attacks do a lot of damage, there is a lot more risk trying to do it, more methods of mitigation/protection from it. And they have to specifically attempt to do the damage consistently (which limits how much of it they can do, whereas bleed for example continues to apply its effects even while the player is dodging running/kiting.attacking

Conditions have 2 types of defense:

avoid getting hit
remove conditions

and avoiding basic attacks and short cool down abilities, with little wind up, is not very effective if the opponent is ranged. (2 dodges every 10 seconds?)

I mean my main problem is conditions generally turn things back into tank and spank fights. Most of the dodge, avoidance, blocking, etc factors go out the window and it becomes a question of math, where its just a measure of dps versus your hp pool, versus healing and condition removal (acts like healing for the equation)

how much direct damage a melee can land has a lot to do with how well his opponent can play/what skills/traits they use, when they use their blocks, distance, react to big moves, take advantage of cones, etc.

Condition application in general is pretty much going to happen if you are in the fight.

Edited by Phys, 19 August 2012 - 12:06 PM.


#125 Shadow Ritualist

Shadow Ritualist

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 701 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostPhys, on 19 August 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Conditions have 2 types of defense:

avoid getting hit
remove conditions

Missed blind, and aegis and dodge weren't there for either of them
and everything you have for melee there

In exchange for not being able to remove direct damage like you can wtih conditions you get damage reduction and weakness.
(Weakness should affect conditions that are applied under it personally)

Again it's not like they do more damage than other autos, I don't see why there's a difference if you dodge them just because you have toughness/damage reduction.

Conditions in GW1 are op because neither damage reduction or weakness work on the degeneration.

Edited by Shadow Ritualist, 19 August 2012 - 03:40 PM.


#126 Phys

Phys

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1739 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostShadow Ritualist, on 19 August 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Missed blind, and aegis and dodge weren't there for either of them
and everything you have for melee there

In exchange for not being able to remove direct damage like you can wtih conditions you get damage reduction and weakness.
(Weakness should affect conditions that are applied under it personally)

Again it's not like they do more damage than other autos, I don't see why there's a difference if you dodge them just because you have toughness/damage reduction.

Conditions in GW1 are op because neither damage reduction or weakness work on the degeneration.

blind is a waste for an auto attack, blind is good for big attacks, most condition builds dont rely on big attacks

If your next 5 attacks apply bleeding, blind will only effect 1, if 50% chance to do burning on critical hits, you have no warning which attacks to dodge. If your AA pistol shot does bleeding, whats the point of 1 dodge?

the point is the application style is a lot more uniform, and a lot less avoidable. They are often tied to ranged attacks, which are more difficult to avoid. look at engineer dual pistol every single skill applies conditions  1bleed 2poison 3confuse 4burn 5immobilize. this is base, without the vulnerability on critical or 33% chance to burn on critical.

What attack are you dodging? every single one? what removal are you bringing? unless you can remove all, or like 1 condition a second, you are going to be in a losing fight.

point is, to dodge a condition class you have to dodge everything, to beat a condition class you cant rely on condition removal. You basically have to burn them down faster than they burn you, the effectiveness of avoiding/defending their attacks is lesser than a direct damage class, because most direct damage classes rely on big attacks, whereas most condition classes do not.

And another thing, in a game with so much dodging, positioning, retreating and closing, condition damage has the advantage of working consistently through all that interplay. for direct damage, you are not doing damage if you are running, you are not doing damage if the guy knocked you down.  You can apply a 5 second burn and do 640 damage a second, whether you are running, dodging, hiding blocking etc.

I mean i can accept it as part of the game, but i think someone is living in a fantasy world saying that condition damage is not more effective at least in pvp, where the humans arent going to stand still very often and let you hit them with your slower powerful attacks unless you cripple/immobilize them.

Edited by Phys, 19 August 2012 - 04:13 PM.


#127 Ponzio

Ponzio

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 728 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostPhys, on 19 August 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:



I mean i can accept it as part of the game, but i think someone is living in a fantasy world saying that condition damage is not more effective at least in pvp, where the humans arent going to stand still very often and let you hit them with your slower powerful attacks unless you cripple/immobilize them.

In tournament play 2 condition players cant instantly burst you down to zero hp, two power specs can. Its really not an issue in organized teamplay and anet stated they balance the game for this. They have to if they want to be a e-sport.

#128 gautuk

gautuk

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 51 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

From the OP:

Quote

Today I was playing a warrior

Tons of people say that the warrior is OP; i dont think so; to kill him, as a necro, i need some time; i need to stack some serious bleeds on him, because it will take time to kill him that way; as a warrior, you can take out 75% of my hps with maybe 1,2 or 3 hits; so if you want to kill me you must catch me (and you have the tools to do it); if i want to kill you, i must survive for that time; i cant fight as you fight. If you  nerf my conditions skills, then you have more hps (or the same at least) more armor... and you can hit me for more. How do i win then? With what?
Kill me fast; or i will kill you slowly. As easy as that.

Its only my opinion; sorry for my poor english.

Edited by gautuk, 19 August 2012 - 06:29 PM.


#129 Shadow Ritualist

Shadow Ritualist

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 701 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostPhys, on 19 August 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

blind is a waste for an auto attack, blind is good for big attacks, most condition builds dont rely on big attacks

If your next 5 attacks apply bleeding, blind will only effect 1, if 50% chance to do burning on critical hits, you have no warning which attacks to dodge. If your AA pistol shot does bleeding, whats the point of 1 dodge?

the point is the application style is a lot more uniform, and a lot less avoidable. They are often tied to ranged attacks, which are more difficult to avoid. look at engineer dual pistol every single skill applies conditions  1bleed 2poison 3confuse 4burn 5immobilize. this is base, without the vulnerability on critical or 33% chance to burn on critical.

What attack are you dodging? every single one? what removal are you bringing? unless you can remove all, or like 1 condition a second, you are going to be in a losing fight.

point is, to dodge a condition class you have to dodge everything, to beat a condition class you cant rely on condition removal. You basically have to burn them down faster than they burn you, the effectiveness of avoiding/defending their attacks is lesser than a direct damage class, because most direct damage classes rely on big attacks, whereas most condition classes do not.

And another thing, in a game with so much dodging, positioning, retreating and closing, condition damage has the advantage of working consistently through all that interplay. for direct damage, you are not doing damage if you are running, you are not doing damage if the guy knocked you down.  You can apply a 5 second burn and do 640 damage a second, whether you are running, dodging, hiding blocking etc.

I mean i can accept it as part of the game, but i think someone is living in a fantasy world saying that condition damage is not more effective at least in pvp, where the humans arent going to stand still very often and let you hit them with your slower powerful attacks unless you cripple/immobilize them.

I suppose blind will completely stop Hundred Blades, as will aegis right. And it will also stop those physical damage autoattacks that do just about the same damage as condition autoattacks will (a bit less and a lot faster). Why are those different than condition damage autos. And I can also deal out 3200 damage on hit then run and dodge for five seconds and still be doing 640 damage a second. It's a big hit so aegis will block it then, but a big condition hit would be blocked the same. And if it's a bunch of autos the condition build will take a lot longer to catch up to my rate of damage, and that's only if i stop attacking.

Pointing out that power builds use big attacks does not affect condition builds in any way. It doesn't decrease the effectiveness of blind or aegist, it makes them more effective on power buidls. Ever realize that say healing is significantly more effective versus condition builds. Or the fact that they can't burst you and you always have time to react.

Edited by Shadow Ritualist, 19 August 2012 - 08:54 PM.


#130 Hep

Hep

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 599 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostPhys, on 19 August 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

the point is the application style is a lot more uniform, and a lot less avoidable. They are often tied to ranged attacks, which are more difficult to avoid. look at engineer dual pistol every single skill applies conditions  1bleed 2poison 3confuse 4burn 5immobilize. this is base, without the vulnerability on critical or 33% chance to burn on critical.

What attack are you dodging? every single one? what removal are you bringing? unless you can remove all, or like 1 condition a second, you are going to be in a losing fight.

And unlike burst damage, not avoiding all condition damage isn't a high likelihood of a death sentence. If burst damage had even a quarter the likelihood of making contact that condition damage does, no one would go condition damage. When I can fight a burst attack that will take all of my health with a heal or some removal after the fact like you can with condition damage (ie, when I'm dead with burst damage), you can get closer to your apples-to-apples comparison of dodge effectiveness.

#131 The Eggman

The Eggman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1159 posts
  • Location:TARDIS
  • Guild Tag:[MBDf]

Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostHep, on 19 August 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

And unlike burst damage, not avoiding all condition damage isn't a high likelihood of a death sentence. If burst damage had even a quarter the likelihood of making contact that condition damage does, no one would go condition damage. When I can fight a burst attack that will take all of my health with a heal or some removal after the fact like you can with condition damage (ie, when I'm dead with burst damage), you can get closer to your apples-to-apples comparison of dodge effectiveness.

Pretty much agree with this. The other thing with condition damage builds, is if you have too many of them they are not doing much. Poison and burning stack in duration, so having any more than 2 would be a waste, and even a second person doing them can be wasteful at times. Then you have bleeding which stacks in intensity but is also capped at 25 bleed stacks. Which is good that it is, but again if you have multiple people hitting that bleed cap they are eventually not doing more damage.

Basically what I am saying is this, a full condition based team would not work that well. A full power team can still function, even if its not optimal, but a team of full condition builds would just be wasting each others damage. A balanced team between the two gives best results.

And one final note... game is never ever supposed to be balanced around hot join/pub play. Tournament play is what the sPvP side is balanced around. And once you got team synergy/tactics/strats whatever you want to call it working, condition management is handled better. As others brought up in the thread, in pub matches you just got a bunch of people only caring about themselves and not really about supporting teammates.


Edit: Oh, I will say one thing. Guardians having burning apply on ALL hits from spirit weapons is a tad ridiculous. The burning also only lasts 1 sec so removal is pointless. The other condition traits like this are usually procs for other classes and with the last build gained inner cooldowns. This guardian trait however has no ICD, and is not a proc chance. It is also in their condition trait tree tier 2.

Edited by The Eggman, 19 August 2012 - 09:42 PM.


#132 antoninusthepious

antoninusthepious

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 173 posts
  • Location:LA, CA
  • Guild Tag:[ND]
  • Server:Darkhaven

Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:09 PM

It is the state of the game.

If conditions were turned into a slight nuisance instead and people are "dying" (well ofcourse they will be dying in pvp) from bursts instead of conditions then someone will start a Burst damage is way too strong thread.

If it works the other way around, people will complain another way around.  

Unless we all want to buff healing and condition removals so that no one will ever die in pvp...? Or even worse take 20 minutes for people to die in pvp.  

If it works a different way around say: it is too hard to stack bleeds.  Then conditions would be useless and people would start a thread with (where is the skill in using one healing spell that removes all my conditions that takes me a lot of time to put up and then they can just cleanse it ever 20 seconds?)  See where i'm going?

If due to these complaints they buff healing and condition removals, people would complain heals and condition removals are too strong.  It's a cycle of people wanting to be unkillable or at least feel invincible in a pvp game.

Conditions are always there.  If "auto-attack" bleed is a given, and people would argue where is the skill in that,  then the skill would come from being able to dodge THE REST of his abilities.

Edited by antoninusthepious, 19 August 2012 - 10:19 PM.


#133 Creativephobia

Creativephobia

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:51 PM

OP, you really need to stop trying to look at this from a rambo perspective. The attitude which you project on these forums is that you actually know what you're doing, and yet the words which you type suggest just the opposite.

You want a good build. You think you have one. You might even be right about that. You're frustrated that condition damage is FOTM and that these "newbies" are able to burn you down when you've micromanaged some build that you think is completely awesome.

Fact of the matter is, the entire franchise has always been a matter of rock paper scissors. Every build has a counter, and you just have to deal with it. There are far too many skills to have a counter for everything in the same build. You think you have a good condition counter build just because you've taken skills that remove conditions. You think the game must be broken because you're not able to remove conditions and heal as fast as players can apply them. Did you ever stop and consider that the game was working as intended and that you simply don't understand how and why?

The franchise has never been a matter of 1v1. Its about synergy with your teammates. Don't expect them to balance the game from a 1v1 perspective. Don't ask them to balance the game from a 1v1 perspective. There are skills that draw conditions for a reason. They're not there to simply provide you with a build that doesn't need any condition removal, but to supplement it. There are skills that heal others for a reason. They're not there to simply provide you with a build that doesn't need but one heal, but to supplement it.

Its been acknowledged many times in this thread that condition heavy builds are generally glass cannons. A well balanced team that works together and has a few players with support roles will steamroll condition spec players. That also involves knowing your enemy and how to deal with them. If a condition spec player can't kill you through attrition, then they have nothing left at their disposal.

So if you want to go off on your own and attempt to hold a point by yourself, don't come here and complain when a condition build burns you down even after you down them. Just because GW2 has been advertised with every class being able to handle every role in some fashion doesn't mean you can do it all at once, let alone by yourself.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: condition damage

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users