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Condition damage is way to strong

condition damage

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#61 Heru

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:27 PM

This with almost anything is a truckload of condition removal for warrior. The heal now cleanses up to 6 conditions at once + shouts can be used to cleanse fear. Going for Mobile Strikes allows you to break immobilize as well. I've never had issues with conditions on the warrior. Sure you are no Necro, but definitely among the best classes in terms of viable condition removal. If you go into tactics it becomes even stronger.

Edited by Heru, 16 August 2012 - 01:30 PM.


#62 sagasaint

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

View PostCiocco, on 16 August 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

This isn't a 1vs1 Game!
A - for example - Warrior will and should not have a fair standing against each and every class or build.
BUT he/she will dominate other classes/builds just fine.

Just my opinion of course...
but people dont want to spec defensively, dont want to meta, dont want to counter


they want to put only pewpewpew skills on their bars, play Leeroy Jenkins' style, and then cry for nerfs if someone kills them with something like conditions or CC

Edited by sagasaint, 16 August 2012 - 01:44 PM.


#63 Geirstadalv

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:32 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 16 August 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

but people dont want to spec defensively, dont want to meta, dont want to counter


they want to put only pewpewpew skills on their bars, play Leeroy Jenkins' style, and then cry for nerfs if someone kills them with something like conditions or CC

Have you not read one single thing in this thread? I was using a shout build, if you don't know what that is let me enlighten you. Shouts heal AND removes conditions. I also have a heal that removes conditions and a passive shout which activates from conditions and cleanses them. I was using the friggin Clerics amulet and jewel which are focused on +healing. 30 points in traits that increases HP and 30 p in toughness. It doesn't get tankier or defensive than that. Still I get killed by conditions! Now go back to playing your OP condition build and enjoy it while it lasts.

Edited by Sycthrex, 16 August 2012 - 08:17 PM.
Removed Insult


#64 sagasaint

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostGeirstadalv, on 16 August 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Are you retarded or something? Have you not read one single thing in this thread? I was using a shout build, if you don't know what that is let me enlighten you. Shouts heal AND removes conditions. I also have a heal that removes conditions and a passive shout which activates from conditions and cleanses them. I was using the friggin Clerics amulet and jewel which are focused on +healing. 30 points in traits that increases HP and 30 p in toughness. It doesn't get tankier or defensive than that. Still I get killed by conditions! Now go back to playing your OP condition build and enjoy it while it lasts.
I wasnt talking about you specifically, more like to the dozens of people in this thread that quickly jumped on the "yeah, lets nerf conditions, they kill me!" bandwagon.

the problem you probably had isnt that conditions do too much damage, is that 2 proffs could stack insane amounts of bleeds back to back. That was mostly fixed with the ICD to earth rune.

or maybe no, because you offer zero videos, zero proofs that back up your claims, just like the rest of people that joined your bandwagon.
for all we know, maybe you were being targeted by 2 or more people. its at best your own pitiful personal experience with nothing to support it.


I play my conditions necro on every test and I can assure you it isnt exactly OP, unless by OP you understand killing someone in 20 seconds after using at least 10 skills...I know i've been hit for 80% of my lifebar by other proffs, in a split second, with a 2-skill combo.
The only chance I have to unload a crapton of conditions fast on a target is if first someone else is unloading them in me/my teammates, so I can bounce them to him.

a simple cleanse will do the trick, and then Im back to slowly building conds up while trying to not get instagibbed by the  builds that can crit 10k-15k without sweating.

Imagine guardians had a build that could stack insane amounts of healing, back to back. If I were like you guys, I'd ask for a nerf to "healing" and then nerf everyone, instead of a nerf to the core part that makes that guardian build work the way it does, which obviously wasnt intended.

Edited by Sycthrex, 16 August 2012 - 08:21 PM.
Removed Insult


#65 Drekor

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

View PostNicator, on 15 August 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

That's quite poor actually, since you only remove a single condition per use.
Bleed is only one condition.

#66 Geirstadalv

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:03 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 16 August 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

..btw, you play a warrior. Im not gonna take insults like "retard" or "play your OP build" from someone that plays a proff designed for down syndromes that drool over their keyboards. play a real proff with an IQ requirement above single digits and we'll talk again.

LoL like the bleed necro? Nice try, kid. I takes a lot of intelligence to keep that auto-attack going.

Besides I usually play a thief, this was an experiment to see how badly balanced condition damage was. It's even worse for the thief, they have even less condition removal and less health.

#67 Ponzio

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostElemental Gearbolt, on 16 August 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Lol people complaining about necromancers and engineers...those are no the professions who hit me for 2k dmg using auto-attacks...ha and I go around with 2k toughness

Actually a condition engineer hits you with such an amount of damage, even after the bleed nerf. Its just split between pistol damage, pistol explosion damage and pistol bleed damage. The bleed, like all conditions, ignores your 2k thoughness. Combined thats over 2000 damage it just doesnt look like it.

#68 Sycthrex

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:22 PM

Please refrain from Insulting other Members.

Thanks

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#69 Abaregi

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:43 PM

Just ban the kids and give us all a better forum :)

Thanks

#70 sagasaint

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostGeirstadalv, on 16 August 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

LoL like the bleed necro? Nice try, kid. I takes a lot of intelligence to keep that auto-attack going.
I found your problem. you think that only autoattack will work to perform acceptably.
there it is, a L2P issue. get better and maybe, just maybe, you wont post so many "nerf this" QQ posts

Edited by sagasaint, 16 August 2012 - 08:59 PM.


#71 darkblue

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostPonzio, on 16 August 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Actually a condition engineer hits you with such an amount of damage, even after the bleed nerf. Its just split between pistol damage, pistol explosion damage and pistol bleed damage. The bleed, like all conditions, ignores your 2k thoughness. Combined thats over 2000 damage it just doesnt look like it.
No builds have AA that deals more than 2K damage (actually unless you have lucky procs you usually can't get over 1k). Some power builds have auto-attacks that actually deals more DPS than condition builds.

That said, a lot of a condition build damage output comes from those AA (with some exceptions). They are build like that and use other skills for utility mainly and/or a much smaller damage bonus than power builds.

#72 Geirstadalv

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:11 PM

View Postsagasaint, on 16 August 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

I found your problem. you think that only autoattack will work to perform acceptably.
there it is, a L2P issue. get better and maybe, just maybe, you wont post so many "nerf this" QQ posts

wow you don't even know your own class.. Don't be afraid, the nerf bat won't hit that hard.

#73 Larsen

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:12 PM

While it's entirely possible that condition damage might be a bit too high at various times throughout the beta, it's a flawed notion to think that you should be able to defeat condition damage with condition removal. If that were possible, half the game's builds would be useless. It's obvious intent that condition damage is a viable thing to rely on, and it wouldn't be if conditions weren't stronger than condition removal. Treat removal like mitigation, and also use it more to counter the debuff effects rather than attempting to counter damage with it. You're not supposed to enjoy automatic wins against every condition-based build in the game just because you've dragged a condition remover into your hotbar. It isn't meant to be that easy, you're just harder to cripple and poison. Finding it difficult to remove that effect against condition-heavy builds? Probably - that's part of the strategy! Considering how the most popular and unanimously most finished classes are the ones that don't rely so much on conditions, I don't think it's accurate to say that condition damage is overpowered. Last time I checked, the best classes were Warrior, Elementalist and Guardian. The rest are still second-rate classes.

#74 Geirstadalv

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostLarsen, on 16 August 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

-snip-

You can dish out pretty much conditions as ele and warrior as well, you know

I agree though that cond removal shouldn't be an automatic win. However some builds are just a bit to strong at the moment and burns/bleeds you down very fast without any option to get away.

#75 arexxis

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:56 PM

God please.......... just go and play any condition based class / build for yourself and stop whining. You will see, its not so olololol roflstomp as you try to make it sound

#76 Phys

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:17 AM

View Postarexxis, on 16 August 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

God please.......... just go and play any condition based class / build for yourself and stop whining. You will see, its not so olololol roflstomp as you try to make it sound

Conditions are pretty much rotational skill use many times, it usually doesnt depend on using your special attacks or big hits either, so its pretty hard to dodge it.  The best counter for a condition user is dps really. Heal is too weak a stat, conditional removal varies greatly with class. I wouldnt say condition damage was OP, IF it wasnt so consistently applied. There isnt many ways to mitigate a condition focused guy. He is probably going to kill you within a certain amount of time no matter what you do, especially if you are a melee player, cant really use LOS and strafe that well at close range.

compared to trying to melee someone, or land the big hits with other classes, it is pretty simple.

dont really know how/if they can fix condition damage. I guess we shall see.

Edited by Phys, 17 August 2012 - 01:18 AM.


#77 flint11

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:43 AM

Condition removal varies with every class, the Warrior while being more limited than some of the other classes are by far not the worst off. Condition removal also removes the whole stack if said condition is one that stacks in intensity, good players will try and cover that Bleed/Burn to keep you from washing it off. Using your shout build, your most potent removal would probably be Mending + Restorative Strength. However, the rest of your shouts sans "Shake it Off!" would only be removing one, any decent player covering with two or more conditions would render it moot pointless. Drop one shout and use Signet of Stamina, if there's any sure-fire counter against conditions, it's dropping ALL of them at the same time.

If all classes could rely on themselves for condition removal, there wouldn't be balance as this is also a strength/weakness you can bring to your team/exploit on your enemies. Warriors in more traditional MMO games had to pair up with healers to be remotely successful in a group setting; Guild Wars 2 while takes away most of that in their design for Warrior, it's still a good idea to pair up with a more condition resilient class that can help ease the pressure for you. It'll be hard to do this for Hot-join sPvP, but more than possible to build around your strenth/weaknesses in tPvP.

#78 Zeldias

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:24 AM

Find someone you can combo light fields with. Not to make light of things, but I doubt that we have the necessary metrics to accurately judge this.

#79 EatThisShoe

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:09 AM

The reason bleed is often the top damage when you die is because it doesn't differentiate between skills, or even players. If a player has 2-3 bleed skills, a bleed proc sigil and a bleed proc trait, it all gets added together.

If you look at an amulet like the Carrion Amulet or Rabid Amulet they are mostly offensive stats, only berserker's and rampager's (also a condition amulet) have more offensive stats.

I do think there is something wrong with conditions though. I think the burst condition builds are often too strong because condition removal is the only counter, and they are balanced against the same counter as longer duration conditions. If you apply a flurry of 2-5s bleeds it is much better than 10s bleeds because even when they are cleansed you lose a smaller percentage of their total damage. I'd rather see more long duration conditions that either stack up over multiple attacks, or have moderate cooldowns. I think on crit procs with short duration get out of hand too easily. Cooldowns are a good move, but I'd like to see longer durations and fewer stacks for most skills. Maybe sigil of earth could be 30% chance of a 10s bleed.

#80 Anelyn

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:22 AM

Think of it this way: burst damage quick deliver, quick result, condition damage (post balance changes) time intensive to stack to reach full potency, longer time to deal same damage, possible to be removed via abilities, heals, traits.

There needs to be a middle ground where condition damage is still effective in wearing down an opponent, but you need to work to get them to that point and constantly monitor stacks / refresh / cover them with other debuffs etc.

Who benefits more from immobilize and stuns, power builds or condition builds? Same as condition builds not being affected that much by blind or chill effects, where power builds suffer more (if timed right of course).

If you have a decent health pool, and playing a power build, you should come out on top vs a condition build, since you can remove some conditions (every class can), and you can use it when they stacked to a high amount to get best use of it, while they can't always dodge or block your burst. Dunno to me it feels easier to predict the gameplay from a condition based build and finding the best times to remove the conditions, than a power build (BR Frenzy 100B telegraphing warriors do not apply!!!!).

#81 Ponzio

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:53 AM

View PostAnelyn, on 17 August 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

If you have a decent health pool, and playing a power build, you should come out on top vs a condition build, since you can remove some conditions (every class can), and you can use it when they stacked to a high amount to get best use of it, while they can't always dodge or block your burst. Dunno to me it feels easier to predict the gameplay from a condition based build and finding the best times to remove the conditions, than a power build (BR Frenzy 100B telegraphing warriors do not apply!!!!).


I can build a super high toughness, vitality condition build without sacrificing much damage, I cant do that with a power build. From what ive seen and played theirs no best time to remove conditions, condition necros and engis for example constantly apply the same ammount of conditions, theirs no spike where it would be better to remove it. You can always dodge or avoid spike damage if its not a zerg or you fight against more players on the enemy side. Hundred blades is a good example, every decent player wont be caught in it in a 1v1. If you waste your bull's rush-frenzy-100blades you have to wait a long time til it all gets of cooldown.

#82 Wardi

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:59 AM

View Postgolden_radish, on 15 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

bleeds are currently the only condition that stacks in effect, rather than duration.  so of course, everyone is going to switch to bleed builds.  FOTM FTW!
Ke? There's also vulnerability and confusion, both worth going for since they changed vulnerability effects (from -x defense to +% dmg).

#83 bonx

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:06 AM

Sorry but i think there is a serious l2p issue if you fail to beat a condition build with 4-5 removes...
I have 0 problems vs cond builds with my thief.

#84 Green

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:16 AM

I'll paste here what I wrote in a similar thread, in fact I should probably keep it in notepad for the next week or so.

The changes being made at this point to all professions are neither buffs OR nerfs. They are the development efforts and balances being made on a game that's yet unreleased, a game that’s... still in development!

The professions/attributes you got used to playing and perhaps fell in love with are not the professions Anet developers intended to be in the final game.

In terms of skills specifically, the changes, or what I prefer to call updates, not only include skill rework, there’s also new skill visuals and sound FX. Smells still more like a construction site, than that new car smell we're all clambering for come that faithful release day.

Edited by Green, 17 August 2012 - 09:23 AM.


#85 iVoyager

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:18 AM

hey anet!

nerf guardians' condition damages. looks like a kid got owned in spvp again.

(-why guardians?
-oh, isn't that the class should always get nerfed?)

and, yes it is just you but anet will nerf things anyways

Edited by iVoyager, 17 August 2012 - 09:19 AM.


#86 Anelyn

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:58 AM

View PostPonzio, on 17 August 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

I can build a super high toughness, vitality condition build without sacrificing much damage, I cant do that with a power build. From what ive seen and played theirs no best time to remove conditions, condition necros and engis for example constantly apply the same ammount of conditions, theirs no spike where it would be better to remove it. You can always dodge or avoid spike damage if its not a zerg or you fight against more players on the enemy side. Hundred blades is a good example, every decent player wont be caught in it in a 1v1. If you waste your bull's rush-frenzy-100blades you have to wait a long time til it all gets of cooldown.

I can't speak for other classes, but I can assure that as a Ranger I can and I will burst you without you having the option to dodge (hint hint, immobilize), so in order to prevent that damage you will have to use a big CD for damage reduction / invulnerability, and when I nuke you it will hurt as hell, and I can repeat this burst every 8s (and have an immobilize ready for it as well) - not counting the rest of the hits which will also hit and crit most of the time for good damage. Even if you go all toughness and stack condition damage, I have ways to remove conditions and heal myself, which makes you start all over in stacking conditions, while I just repeat my burst attack 8 seconds later and you're back to low hp after you used your heal.

Is easier to put someone on defensive and blow major CDs with a power / crit build if you know how to pull it off (ie: not telegraphing your burst or giving your opponent the chance to dodge it etc) than with a condition build. I have 24k hp with my power / crit build on ranger, so condition builds have to work for a while to wear me down.

#87 Ivarr_Ironfist

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:45 AM

In the last stress test, I found that condition damage builds were significantly less good than the last time I played (BWE3/two stress tests ago). I found it to be a lot more balanced, possibly verging on the UP.

Sigils now have ICDs which has a severe affect on many bleed orientated builds. Furthermore, I think I noticed a change in the Malice formula or something to negatively impact damage. I was running a build with something like 1450 Malice, meaning that according to the formula bleeds should be ticking for well over 100. What I noticed was lots of 89s popping up. I might be wrong here though...

I believe the recent overpower in conditions was due to the Malice formula not being corrected for the changes to Might (and now Vulnerability).

#88 Blixcoe

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:48 AM

I don't know about the other professions, but I don't think ranger has ONE condition removal. Maybe they do, but that's it.
Anyone know about it?
(Some of them are in their pets but I mean skills that we equip)

Edited by Blixcoe, 17 August 2012 - 11:48 AM.


#89 EvilFree

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

I dont really see any issues with condtions at present.  Most professions have condition removers either as signets/skills or as traits.

Instead of direct damage its damage over time, but usually amounts to the same damage.

Edited by EvilFree, 17 August 2012 - 12:44 PM.


#90 Sycthrex

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:55 AM

View PostBlixcoe, on 17 August 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't know about the other professions, but I don't think ranger has ONE condition removal. Maybe they do, but that's it.
Anyone know about it?
(Some of them are in their pets but I mean skills that we equip)

Signet of Renewal is pretty much what you are looking for here

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